vesica tempestas.1563 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 > @"Ganathar.4956" said: > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > SC just released the new for the most recent balance patch, with it showing that it has the best theoretical dps on both small and large. > > > > While I do think Weaver needs some dps to compensate for the reason that it has no to little cc, low health and armor as well as having a bit more complicated rotation, it needs to be down by a bit. 45k dps on Large/36k dps on small with a really large burst upfront, as well as having one of the biggest AoE skills seem absurd to me. (most especially all classes currently sit at around 30-35k~ dps on both small and large.) > > > > > > Benchmarks only measure potential. Weaver has the largest one, which is fine considering its potential is the least reliable one. Interrupts, retal (low health pool + high numbers of hits per second), boss movement, forced movement... Benchmarks measure none of these. > > > > While true, top raiders are able to deal near the potential Staff Weavers can. While a small number, focusing balance around the average pug, would hurt class/build diversity. > > > > It's small health poll is of-set by the fact that a good healer and Chrono can help you survive, which in cases and from my experience, is true. I've been playing with Sw/D Weaver a lot, which is a pure melee dps spec that's as risky as Staff Weaver (or even more) and I can deal good dps, while surviving provided I have a good Healer and Chrono to support me. > > > > Focusing balance on average raiders actually greatly increases build diversity for most raiders. The only people who would be less diverse are the speedrunners who are a subsection of an already very small population that raids. These people will use the most optimal comp all the time, and you can bet that if ele damage is nerfed significantly that even they will drop eles altogether because they will suddenly be a risky choice with no benefit and basically no utility. > > Why should raids dictate balancing anyway? Why not dictate balance based on fractals? Why not dictate it based on PvP? Or maybe open world? Or perhaps WvW? These are all game modes that are played by more people. And unlike raiding, the state of balance actually can affect the current population of WvW and PvP quite significantly because nobody likes losing to cheese and having a class that can't do anything against other players. All classes can have a place in raids because you aren't facing another player that has an advantage over you just because of their class. It's not the non-raider's fault that so many raiders really want to try and run the speed clearing comps, when they would probably have smoother runs with other comps more suited to their skill level. This is really the point i was making, balance should be based on pvp for the following reasons: **Balance for PVP** = no effect on raids as long as raid leaders respect players ability to not use the OP builds and as long as other builds are viable. Worst case, raid leaders force people to use the OP build and bosses get easier. **Balance for Raids**, balancing for a tiny subset of the game is bad anyway, but in particular this can and does RUIN wvw and pvp gameplay for players fighting against an OP build. In either case non raid pve is unaffected, people can continue to play what they like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refia Montes.3205 Posted December 19, 2017 Author Share Posted December 19, 2017 > @"Ganathar.4956" said: > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > SC just released the new for the most recent balance patch, with it showing that it has the best theoretical dps on both small and large. > > > > While I do think Weaver needs some dps to compensate for the reason that it has no to little cc, low health and armor as well as having a bit more complicated rotation, it needs to be down by a bit. 45k dps on Large/36k dps on small with a really large burst upfront, as well as having one of the biggest AoE skills seem absurd to me. (most especially all classes currently sit at around 30-35k~ dps on both small and large.) > > > > > > Benchmarks only measure potential. Weaver has the largest one, which is fine considering its potential is the least reliable one. Interrupts, retal (low health pool + high numbers of hits per second), boss movement, forced movement... Benchmarks measure none of these. > > > > While true, top raiders are able to deal near the potential Staff Weavers can. While a small number, focusing balance around the average pug, would hurt class/build diversity. > > > > It's small health poll is of-set by the fact that a good healer and Chrono can help you survive, which in cases and from my experience, is true. I've been playing with Sw/D Weaver a lot, which is a pure melee dps spec that's as risky as Staff Weaver (or even more) and I can deal good dps, while surviving provided I have a good Healer and Chrono to support me. > > > > Focusing balance on average raiders actually greatly increases build diversity for most raiders. The only people who would be less diverse are the speedrunners who are a subsection of an already very small population that raids. These people will use the most optimal comp all the time, and you can bet that if ele damage is nerfed significantly that even they will drop eles altogether because they will suddenly be a risky choice with no benefit and basically no utility. > > Why should raids dictate balancing anyway? Why not dictate balance based on fractals? Why not dictate it based on PvP? Or maybe open world? Or perhaps WvW? These are all game modes that are played by more people. And unlike raiding, the state of balance actually can affect the current population of WvW and PvP quite significantly because nobody likes losing to cheese and having a class that can't do anything against other players. All classes can have a place in raids because you aren't facing another player that has an advantage over you just because of their class. It's not the non-raider's fault that so many raiders really want to try and run the speed clearing comps, when they would probably have smoother runs with other comps more suited to their skill level. Fractals and Raids are pretty similar though, so their balance are not a problem. WvW/PvP is a good arguement, however we already currently have the tech to split balance between modes now. If we let WvW/PvP balance be also a basis for PvE balance, then Necro will always remain as a garbage spec in it as seemingly Scourge is still pretty dominant on those modes. Open world doesn't really matter much since you can clear content on any build you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refia Montes.3205 Posted December 19, 2017 Author Share Posted December 19, 2017 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Ganathar.4956" said: > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > > SC just released the new for the most recent balance patch, with it showing that it has the best theoretical dps on both small and large. > > > > > While I do think Weaver needs some dps to compensate for the reason that it has no to little cc, low health and armor as well as having a bit more complicated rotation, it needs to be down by a bit. 45k dps on Large/36k dps on small with a really large burst upfront, as well as having one of the biggest AoE skills seem absurd to me. (most especially all classes currently sit at around 30-35k~ dps on both small and large.) > > > > > > > > Benchmarks only measure potential. Weaver has the largest one, which is fine considering its potential is the least reliable one. Interrupts, retal (low health pool + high numbers of hits per second), boss movement, forced movement... Benchmarks measure none of these. > > > > > > While true, top raiders are able to deal near the potential Staff Weavers can. While a small number, focusing balance around the average pug, would hurt class/build diversity. > > > > > > It's small health poll is of-set by the fact that a good healer and Chrono can help you survive, which in cases and from my experience, is true. I've been playing with Sw/D Weaver a lot, which is a pure melee dps spec that's as risky as Staff Weaver (or even more) and I can deal good dps, while surviving provided I have a good Healer and Chrono to support me. > > > > > > > Focusing balance on average raiders actually greatly increases build diversity for most raiders. The only people who would be less diverse are the speedrunners who are a subsection of an already very small population that raids. These people will use the most optimal comp all the time, and you can bet that if ele damage is nerfed significantly that even they will drop eles altogether because they will suddenly be a risky choice with no benefit and basically no utility. > > > > Why should raids dictate balancing anyway? Why not dictate balance based on fractals? Why not dictate it based on PvP? Or maybe open world? Or perhaps WvW? These are all game modes that are played by more people. And unlike raiding, the state of balance actually can affect the current population of WvW and PvP quite significantly because nobody likes losing to cheese and having a class that can't do anything against other players. All classes can have a place in raids because you aren't facing another player that has an advantage over you just because of their class. It's not the non-raider's fault that so many raiders really want to try and run the speed clearing comps, when they would probably have smoother runs with other comps more suited to their skill level. > > This is really the point i was making, balance should be based on pvp for the following reasons: > > **Balance for PVP** = no effect on raids as long as raid leaders respect players ability to not use the OP builds and as long as other builds are viable. Worst case, raid leaders force people to use the OP build and bosses get easier. > > **Balance for Raids**, balancing for a tiny subset of the game is bad anyway, but in particular this can and does RUIN wvw and pvp gameplay for players fighting against an OP build. > > In either case non raid pve is unaffected, people can continue to play what they like. I think you forgot that we now have skill/trait splits... If you want, let's make necro a dead class in high pve content useless forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Ganathar.4956" said: > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > > > SC just released the new for the most recent balance patch, with it showing that it has the best theoretical dps on both small and large. > > > > > > While I do think Weaver needs some dps to compensate for the reason that it has no to little cc, low health and armor as well as having a bit more complicated rotation, it needs to be down by a bit. 45k dps on Large/36k dps on small with a really large burst upfront, as well as having one of the biggest AoE skills seem absurd to me. (most especially all classes currently sit at around 30-35k~ dps on both small and large.) > > > > > > > > > > Benchmarks only measure potential. Weaver has the largest one, which is fine considering its potential is the least reliable one. Interrupts, retal (low health pool + high numbers of hits per second), boss movement, forced movement... Benchmarks measure none of these. > > > > > > > > While true, top raiders are able to deal near the potential Staff Weavers can. While a small number, focusing balance around the average pug, would hurt class/build diversity. > > > > > > > > It's small health poll is of-set by the fact that a good healer and Chrono can help you survive, which in cases and from my experience, is true. I've been playing with Sw/D Weaver a lot, which is a pure melee dps spec that's as risky as Staff Weaver (or even more) and I can deal good dps, while surviving provided I have a good Healer and Chrono to support me. > > > > > > > > > > Focusing balance on average raiders actually greatly increases build diversity for most raiders. The only people who would be less diverse are the speedrunners who are a subsection of an already very small population that raids. These people will use the most optimal comp all the time, and you can bet that if ele damage is nerfed significantly that even they will drop eles altogether because they will suddenly be a risky choice with no benefit and basically no utility. > > > > > > Why should raids dictate balancing anyway? Why not dictate balance based on fractals? Why not dictate it based on PvP? Or maybe open world? Or perhaps WvW? These are all game modes that are played by more people. And unlike raiding, the state of balance actually can affect the current population of WvW and PvP quite significantly because nobody likes losing to cheese and having a class that can't do anything against other players. All classes can have a place in raids because you aren't facing another player that has an advantage over you just because of their class. It's not the non-raider's fault that so many raiders really want to try and run the speed clearing comps, when they would probably have smoother runs with other comps more suited to their skill level. > > > > This is really the point i was making, balance should be based on pvp for the following reasons: > > > > **Balance for PVP** = no effect on raids as long as raid leaders respect players ability to not use the OP builds and as long as other builds are viable. Worst case, raid leaders force people to use the OP build and bosses get easier. > > > > **Balance for Raids**, balancing for a tiny subset of the game is bad anyway, but in particular this can and does RUIN wvw and pvp gameplay for players fighting against an OP build. > > > > In either case non raid pve is unaffected, people can continue to play what they like. > > I think you forgot that we now have skill/trait splits... If you want, let's make necro a dead class in high pve content useless forever. um ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChivalrousKnight.7201 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 If they made staff skills more consistent, less interrupt-able, made weaver have faster access to CC + provide utility, sure. Otherwise, no. Weaver already lost their mediocre vulnerability application last patch. It's just a fragile inconsistent DPS bot rn in PvE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrin.1035 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > Should Staff Weaver (pve) be nerfed? I sure hope not. It's already too slow and easily avoidable even for PvE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganathar.4956 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > @"Ganathar.4956" said: > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > > SC just released the new for the most recent balance patch, with it showing that it has the best theoretical dps on both small and large. > > > > > While I do think Weaver needs some dps to compensate for the reason that it has no to little cc, low health and armor as well as having a bit more complicated rotation, it needs to be down by a bit. 45k dps on Large/36k dps on small with a really large burst upfront, as well as having one of the biggest AoE skills seem absurd to me. (most especially all classes currently sit at around 30-35k~ dps on both small and large.) > > > > > > > > Benchmarks only measure potential. Weaver has the largest one, which is fine considering its potential is the least reliable one. Interrupts, retal (low health pool + high numbers of hits per second), boss movement, forced movement... Benchmarks measure none of these. > > > > > > While true, top raiders are able to deal near the potential Staff Weavers can. While a small number, focusing balance around the average pug, would hurt class/build diversity. > > > > > > It's small health poll is of-set by the fact that a good healer and Chrono can help you survive, which in cases and from my experience, is true. I've been playing with Sw/D Weaver a lot, which is a pure melee dps spec that's as risky as Staff Weaver (or even more) and I can deal good dps, while surviving provided I have a good Healer and Chrono to support me. > > > > > > > Focusing balance on average raiders actually greatly increases build diversity for most raiders. The only people who would be less diverse are the speedrunners who are a subsection of an already very small population that raids. These people will use the most optimal comp all the time, and you can bet that if ele damage is nerfed significantly that even they will drop eles altogether because they will suddenly be a risky choice with no benefit and basically no utility. > > > > Why should raids dictate balancing anyway? Why not dictate balance based on fractals? Why not dictate it based on PvP? Or maybe open world? Or perhaps WvW? These are all game modes that are played by more people. And unlike raiding, the state of balance actually can affect the current population of WvW and PvP quite significantly because nobody likes losing to cheese and having a class that can't do anything against other players. All classes can have a place in raids because you aren't facing another player that has an advantage over you just because of their class. It's not the non-raider's fault that so many raiders really want to try and run the speed clearing comps, when they would probably have smoother runs with other comps more suited to their skill level. > > Fractals and Raids are pretty similar though, so their balance are not a problem. WvW/PvP is a good arguement, however we already currently have the tech to split balance between modes now. If we let WvW/PvP balance be also a basis for PvE balance, then Necro will always remain as a garbage spec in it as seemingly Scourge is still pretty dominant on those modes. Open world doesn't really matter much since you can clear content on any build you want. Anet tries to avoid balance splits as much as possible. Also scourge doesn't need balance splits to be nerfed properly. The reason why it is OP in WvW/PvP has nothing to do with its performance in PvE. It is because of their instant casts with no tells and their plethora of corruptions. Nerfing these will not impact their performance in PvE whatsoever. They could even get a DPS buff in all game modes safely if these changes were to happen. I would only accept a DPS loss in staff if it was made way more reliable to hit enemies. Otherwise it becomes useless in every single game mode. Like for example making the first lava font tick quicker. Or maybe making meteor a pulsing AoE, which stops large hitboxes from ever being an issue again, while being a massive buff in PvP/WvW. Of course Anet will never put in the effort to apply real fixes to all the weapons that need them, so no I don't want staff to become useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refia Montes.3205 Posted December 19, 2017 Author Share Posted December 19, 2017 > @"Ganathar.4956" said: > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > @"Ganathar.4956" said: > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > > > SC just released the new for the most recent balance patch, with it showing that it has the best theoretical dps on both small and large. > > > > > > While I do think Weaver needs some dps to compensate for the reason that it has no to little cc, low health and armor as well as having a bit more complicated rotation, it needs to be down by a bit. 45k dps on Large/36k dps on small with a really large burst upfront, as well as having one of the biggest AoE skills seem absurd to me. (most especially all classes currently sit at around 30-35k~ dps on both small and large.) > > > > > > > > > > Benchmarks only measure potential. Weaver has the largest one, which is fine considering its potential is the least reliable one. Interrupts, retal (low health pool + high numbers of hits per second), boss movement, forced movement... Benchmarks measure none of these. > > > > > > > > While true, top raiders are able to deal near the potential Staff Weavers can. While a small number, focusing balance around the average pug, would hurt class/build diversity. > > > > > > > > It's small health poll is of-set by the fact that a good healer and Chrono can help you survive, which in cases and from my experience, is true. I've been playing with Sw/D Weaver a lot, which is a pure melee dps spec that's as risky as Staff Weaver (or even more) and I can deal good dps, while surviving provided I have a good Healer and Chrono to support me. > > > > > > > > > > Focusing balance on average raiders actually greatly increases build diversity for most raiders. The only people who would be less diverse are the speedrunners who are a subsection of an already very small population that raids. These people will use the most optimal comp all the time, and you can bet that if ele damage is nerfed significantly that even they will drop eles altogether because they will suddenly be a risky choice with no benefit and basically no utility. > > > > > > Why should raids dictate balancing anyway? Why not dictate balance based on fractals? Why not dictate it based on PvP? Or maybe open world? Or perhaps WvW? These are all game modes that are played by more people. And unlike raiding, the state of balance actually can affect the current population of WvW and PvP quite significantly because nobody likes losing to cheese and having a class that can't do anything against other players. All classes can have a place in raids because you aren't facing another player that has an advantage over you just because of their class. It's not the non-raider's fault that so many raiders really want to try and run the speed clearing comps, when they would probably have smoother runs with other comps more suited to their skill level. > > > > Fractals and Raids are pretty similar though, so their balance are not a problem. WvW/PvP is a good arguement, however we already currently have the tech to split balance between modes now. If we let WvW/PvP balance be also a basis for PvE balance, then Necro will always remain as a garbage spec in it as seemingly Scourge is still pretty dominant on those modes. Open world doesn't really matter much since you can clear content on any build you want. > > Anet tries to avoid balance splits as much as possible. Also scourge doesn't need balance splits to be nerfed properly. The reason why it is OP in WvW/PvP has nothing to do with its performance in PvE. It is because of their instant casts with no tells and their plethora of corruptions. Nerfing these will not impact their performance in PvE whatsoever. They could even get a DPS buff in all game modes safely if these changes were to happen. > > I would only accept a DPS loss in staff if it was made way more reliable to hit enemies. Otherwise it becomes useless in every single game mode. Like for example making the first lava font tick quicker. Or maybe making meteor a pulsing AoE, which stops large hitboxes from ever being an issue again, while being a massive buff in PvP/WvW. Of course Anet will never put in the effort to apply real fixes to all the weapons that need them, so no I don't want staff to become useless. Yes, Scourge's power from PvP/WvW to PvE doesn't really translate well, since instant casts aren't as impactful there, in addition to the power of instant boon corrupts. I agree with your assessment there that Shade red circles aren't enough, and they're still a bursty condition class that leads to a lot of frustration. From there, I would just like to point out that, balance varies from gamemode to game mode and not on one singular mode. This thread was specifically catered towards PvE. And talking about PvP/WvW balance on it is off topic and it's best to leave those to another thread if wanted. I'm actually thinking along the lines of that. Meteor Shower is a problematic skill to balance imo, useless in PvE, a little too strong in PvP. However, doing so will lose the identity/ a trademark skill of Ele. I'd like to rework Meteor Shower and probably Lava Font honestly and not touch on Ele's other skills. Another point that I would like to bring up is, Staff Tempest was widely used even if it was at 38k dps on large and 30k on small before and everyone accepted that with other classes in between those numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganathar.4956 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > @"Ganathar.4956" said: > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > @"Ganathar.4956" said: > > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > > > > SC just released the new for the most recent balance patch, with it showing that it has the best theoretical dps on both small and large. > > > > > > > While I do think Weaver needs some dps to compensate for the reason that it has no to little cc, low health and armor as well as having a bit more complicated rotation, it needs to be down by a bit. 45k dps on Large/36k dps on small with a really large burst upfront, as well as having one of the biggest AoE skills seem absurd to me. (most especially all classes currently sit at around 30-35k~ dps on both small and large.) > > > > > > > > > > > > Benchmarks only measure potential. Weaver has the largest one, which is fine considering its potential is the least reliable one. Interrupts, retal (low health pool + high numbers of hits per second), boss movement, forced movement... Benchmarks measure none of these. > > > > > > > > > > While true, top raiders are able to deal near the potential Staff Weavers can. While a small number, focusing balance around the average pug, would hurt class/build diversity. > > > > > > > > > > It's small health poll is of-set by the fact that a good healer and Chrono can help you survive, which in cases and from my experience, is true. I've been playing with Sw/D Weaver a lot, which is a pure melee dps spec that's as risky as Staff Weaver (or even more) and I can deal good dps, while surviving provided I have a good Healer and Chrono to support me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Focusing balance on average raiders actually greatly increases build diversity for most raiders. The only people who would be less diverse are the speedrunners who are a subsection of an already very small population that raids. These people will use the most optimal comp all the time, and you can bet that if ele damage is nerfed significantly that even they will drop eles altogether because they will suddenly be a risky choice with no benefit and basically no utility. > > > > > > > > Why should raids dictate balancing anyway? Why not dictate balance based on fractals? Why not dictate it based on PvP? Or maybe open world? Or perhaps WvW? These are all game modes that are played by more people. And unlike raiding, the state of balance actually can affect the current population of WvW and PvP quite significantly because nobody likes losing to cheese and having a class that can't do anything against other players. All classes can have a place in raids because you aren't facing another player that has an advantage over you just because of their class. It's not the non-raider's fault that so many raiders really want to try and run the speed clearing comps, when they would probably have smoother runs with other comps more suited to their skill level. > > > > > > Fractals and Raids are pretty similar though, so their balance are not a problem. WvW/PvP is a good arguement, however we already currently have the tech to split balance between modes now. If we let WvW/PvP balance be also a basis for PvE balance, then Necro will always remain as a garbage spec in it as seemingly Scourge is still pretty dominant on those modes. Open world doesn't really matter much since you can clear content on any build you want. > > > > Anet tries to avoid balance splits as much as possible. Also scourge doesn't need balance splits to be nerfed properly. The reason why it is OP in WvW/PvP has nothing to do with its performance in PvE. It is because of their instant casts with no tells and their plethora of corruptions. Nerfing these will not impact their performance in PvE whatsoever. They could even get a DPS buff in all game modes safely if these changes were to happen. > > > > I would only accept a DPS loss in staff if it was made way more reliable to hit enemies. Otherwise it becomes useless in every single game mode. Like for example making the first lava font tick quicker. Or maybe making meteor a pulsing AoE, which stops large hitboxes from ever being an issue again, while being a massive buff in PvP/WvW. Of course Anet will never put in the effort to apply real fixes to all the weapons that need them, so no I don't want staff to become useless. > > Yes, Scourge's power from PvP/WvW to PvE doesn't really translate well, since instant casts aren't as impactful there, in addition to the power of instant boon corrupts. I agree with your assessment there that Shade red circles aren't enough, and they're still a bursty condition class that leads to a lot of frustration. From there, I would just like to point out that, balance varies from gamemode to game mode and not on one singular mode. This thread was specifically catered towards PvE. And talking about PvP/WvW balance on it is off topic and it's best to leave those to another thread if wanted. > > I'm actually thinking along the lines of that. Meteor Shower is a problematic skill to balance imo, useless in PvE, a little too strong in PvP. However, doing so will lose the identity/ a trademark skill of Ele. I'd like to rework Meteor Shower and probably Lava Font honestly and not touch on Ele's other skills. > > Another point that I would like to bring up is, Staff Tempest was widely used even if it was at 38k dps on large and 30k on small before and everyone accepted that with other classes in between those numbers. They may have accepted it but tempest has more utility than weaver, which brings nothing to the table except for damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refia Montes.3205 Posted December 19, 2017 Author Share Posted December 19, 2017 Tempest didn't have utility. Well noone ever brought a Tempest for their utility. They only brought it for the damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > SC just released the new for the most recent balance patch, with it showing that it has the best theoretical dps on both small and large. > > > While I do think Weaver needs some dps to compensate for the reason that it has no to little cc, low health and armor as well as having a bit more complicated rotation, it needs to be down by a bit. 45k dps on Large/36k dps on small with a really large burst upfront, as well as having one of the biggest AoE skills seem absurd to me. (most especially all classes currently sit at around 30-35k~ dps on both small and large.) > > > > Benchmarks only measure potential. Weaver has the largest one, which is fine considering its potential is the least reliable one. Interrupts, retal (low health pool + high numbers of hits per second), boss movement, forced movement... Benchmarks measure none of these. > > While true, top raiders are able to deal near the potential Staff Weavers can. While a small number, focusing balance around the average pug, would hurt class/build diversity. That point isn't as strong as it used to be, as we now have GW2Raidar and people can actually look beyond the 99th percentile. And a lot of people are doing it, as evidenced by the popularity of the Soulbeast for instance. > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > Tempest didn't have utility. Well noone ever brought a Tempest for their utility. They only brought it for the damage. Not quite. Tempest used to pick Gale Song for the stunbreak and there was the "Rebound!" strat on Xera. While these are quite minimal, it is still more than Weaver has. As a Tempest you would also get access to stab on overload. It didn't seem much, but I definitely felt its loss when I started playing Weaver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kundry.1249 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > SC just released the new for the most recent balance patch, with it showing that it has the best theoretical dps on both small and large. > > > While I do think Weaver needs some dps to compensate for the reason that it has no to little cc, low health and armor as well as having a bit more complicated rotation, it needs to be down by a bit. 45k dps on Large/36k dps on small with a really large burst upfront, as well as having one of the biggest AoE skills seem absurd to me. (most especially all classes currently sit at around 30-35k~ dps on both small and large.) > > > > Benchmarks only measure potential. Weaver has the largest one, which is fine considering its potential is the least reliable one. Interrupts, retal (low health pool + high numbers of hits per second), boss movement, forced movement... Benchmarks measure none of these. > > While true, top raiders are able to deal near the potential Staff Weavers can. That right there is your problem. No top raider deals 45k dps on an actual fight. Nor is the difference between Weaver and its next competitor as large as it is on the golem, with the exception of KC (if you discount Tempest and compare only to other professions) for obvious reasons. On the other hand, people arguing how staff Weaver is weak in PvP so it should have highest dps are just as silly. All the PvE meta builds are garbage in PvP, and vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refia Montes.3205 Posted December 19, 2017 Author Share Posted December 19, 2017 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > SC just released the new for the most recent balance patch, with it showing that it has the best theoretical dps on both small and large. > > > > While I do think Weaver needs some dps to compensate for the reason that it has no to little cc, low health and armor as well as having a bit more complicated rotation, it needs to be down by a bit. 45k dps on Large/36k dps on small with a really large burst upfront, as well as having one of the biggest AoE skills seem absurd to me. (most especially all classes currently sit at around 30-35k~ dps on both small and large.) > > > > > > Benchmarks only measure potential. Weaver has the largest one, which is fine considering its potential is the least reliable one. Interrupts, retal (low health pool + high numbers of hits per second), boss movement, forced movement... Benchmarks measure none of these. > > > > While true, top raiders are able to deal near the potential Staff Weavers can. While a small number, focusing balance around the average pug, would hurt class/build diversity. > > That point isn't as strong as it used to be, as we now have GW2Raidar and people can actually look beyond the 99th percentile. And a lot of people are doing it, as evidenced by the popularity of the Soulbeast for instance. > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > Tempest didn't have utility. Well noone ever brought a Tempest for their utility. They only brought it for the damage. > > Not quite. Tempest used to pick Gale Song for the stunbreak and there was the "Rebound!" strat on Xera. While these are quite minimal, it is still more than Weaver has. As a Tempest you would also get access to stab on overload. It didn't seem much, but I definitely felt its loss when I started playing Weaver. While true... I seriously doubt Raidar now. Top power professions are base Ele and Power Mesmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refia Montes.3205 Posted December 19, 2017 Author Share Posted December 19, 2017 > @"Kundry.1249" said: > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > SC just released the new for the most recent balance patch, with it showing that it has the best theoretical dps on both small and large. > > > > While I do think Weaver needs some dps to compensate for the reason that it has no to little cc, low health and armor as well as having a bit more complicated rotation, it needs to be down by a bit. 45k dps on Large/36k dps on small with a really large burst upfront, as well as having one of the biggest AoE skills seem absurd to me. (most especially all classes currently sit at around 30-35k~ dps on both small and large.) > > > > > > Benchmarks only measure potential. Weaver has the largest one, which is fine considering its potential is the least reliable one. Interrupts, retal (low health pool + high numbers of hits per second), boss movement, forced movement... Benchmarks measure none of these. > > > > While true, top raiders are able to deal near the potential Staff Weavers can. > > That right there is your problem. No top raider deals 45k dps on an actual fight. Nor is the difference between Weaver and its next competitor as large as it is on the golem, with the exception of KC (if you discount Tempest and compare only to other professions) for obvious reasons. > > On the other hand, people arguing how staff Weaver is weak in PvP so it should have highest dps are just as silly. All the PvE meta builds are garbage in PvP, and vice versa. I could pull some recent dps logs from the top raiders to prove my point that weaver dps is still miles ahead over others but Im lazy. Anyways if a Weaver loses some dps from its benchmark, just to deal with mechanics, positioning, delaying Meteor Shower etc, at most if a good player only loses 20% of the potential, which is still higher than most other builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyTouchy.6043 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 I think instead they should be buffing sword and dagger in a way that positively affects PvE without hurting PvP, like extended field durations. The damage of weaver staff in PvE makes sense. It's THE hardest and most glassiest class to play without team utility and personal defense. It just doesn't make sense that a ranged and very wide AOE weapon is also the strongest against single targets. Melee should be measuring up or surpassing it just as melee logic does with other classes, yet in the case of weaver, there's absolutely no reason to run those weapons as main hands. If they ever do nerf staff, I hope it goes through with the same logic, focusing on field durations so that it doesn't negatively impact PvP. Nobody in their right minds stands in those things for more than a second anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > > SC just released the new for the most recent balance patch, with it showing that it has the best theoretical dps on both small and large. > > > > > While I do think Weaver needs some dps to compensate for the reason that it has no to little cc, low health and armor as well as having a bit more complicated rotation, it needs to be down by a bit. 45k dps on Large/36k dps on small with a really large burst upfront, as well as having one of the biggest AoE skills seem absurd to me. (most especially all classes currently sit at around 30-35k~ dps on both small and large.) > > > > > > > > Benchmarks only measure potential. Weaver has the largest one, which is fine considering its potential is the least reliable one. Interrupts, retal (low health pool + high numbers of hits per second), boss movement, forced movement... Benchmarks measure none of these. > > > > > > While true, top raiders are able to deal near the potential Staff Weavers can. While a small number, focusing balance around the average pug, would hurt class/build diversity. > > > > That point isn't as strong as it used to be, as we now have GW2Raidar and people can actually look beyond the 99th percentile. And a lot of people are doing it, as evidenced by the popularity of the Soulbeast for instance. > > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > Tempest didn't have utility. Well noone ever brought a Tempest for their utility. They only brought it for the damage. > > > > Not quite. Tempest used to pick Gale Song for the stunbreak and there was the "Rebound!" strat on Xera. While these are quite minimal, it is still more than Weaver has. As a Tempest you would also get access to stab on overload. It didn't seem much, but I definitely felt its loss when I started playing Weaver. > > While true... I seriously doubt Raidar now. Top power professions are base Ele and Power Mesmer. Give it some time. There isn't enough data since the last patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kundry.1249 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > @"Kundry.1249" said: > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > > SC just released the new for the most recent balance patch, with it showing that it has the best theoretical dps on both small and large. > > > > > While I do think Weaver needs some dps to compensate for the reason that it has no to little cc, low health and armor as well as having a bit more complicated rotation, it needs to be down by a bit. 45k dps on Large/36k dps on small with a really large burst upfront, as well as having one of the biggest AoE skills seem absurd to me. (most especially all classes currently sit at around 30-35k~ dps on both small and large.) > > > > > > > > Benchmarks only measure potential. Weaver has the largest one, which is fine considering its potential is the least reliable one. Interrupts, retal (low health pool + high numbers of hits per second), boss movement, forced movement... Benchmarks measure none of these. > > > > > > While true, top raiders are able to deal near the potential Staff Weavers can. > > > > That right there is your problem. No top raider deals 45k dps on an actual fight. Nor is the difference between Weaver and its next competitor as large as it is on the golem, with the exception of KC (if you discount Tempest and compare only to other professions) for obvious reasons. > > > > On the other hand, people arguing how staff Weaver is weak in PvP so it should have highest dps are just as silly. All the PvE meta builds are garbage in PvP, and vice versa. > > I could pull some recent dps logs from the top raiders to prove my point that weaver dps is still miles ahead over others but Im lazy. Anyways if a Weaver loses some dps from its benchmark, just to deal with mechanics, positioning, delaying Meteor Shower etc, at most if a good player only loses 20% of the potential, which is still higher than most other builds. On actual bosses you lose way more than 20% compared to the golem benchmark, and that's for every class (even "easy" ones), not just Weaver. > @"SneakyTouchy.6043" said: > I think instead they should be buffing sword and dagger in a way that positively affects PvE without hurting PvP, like extended field durations. > > The damage of weaver staff in PvE makes sense. It's THE hardest and most glassiest class to play without team utility and personal defense. It just doesn't make sense that a ranged and very wide AOE weapon is also the strongest against single targets. Melee should be measuring up or surpassing it just as melee logic does with other classes, yet in the case of weaver, there's absolutely no reason to run those weapons as main hands. > I don't think the "melee logic" is strong enough in this case. There isn't a true ranged dps in GW2 anyway, since everyone is supposed to stack. Staff Weaver isn't going to be dealing top damage if you stay at range. Range has some advantage when mechanics force you to move out, running to the boss, etc. but at the same time Staff requires enemies to stay inside AoE circles and you have to channel an important skill while standing still. And I frequently run a "melee weapon" (Fresh Air Tempest) in many fractals, because it's king of killing trash and much more relaxing and easier to play than Staff Weaver. Though you could say normal mode fractals aren't worth discussing, which could be a fair point. I'm not saying Staff Weaver isn't a very, very strong spec. It undoubtedly is. But I think it's deserving of the top damage spot, and if it's overpowered at all, only slightly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 > @"Kundry.1249" said: > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > @"Kundry.1249" said: > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > > > SC just released the new for the most recent balance patch, with it showing that it has the best theoretical dps on both small and large. > > > > > > While I do think Weaver needs some dps to compensate for the reason that it has no to little cc, low health and armor as well as having a bit more complicated rotation, it needs to be down by a bit. 45k dps on Large/36k dps on small with a really large burst upfront, as well as having one of the biggest AoE skills seem absurd to me. (most especially all classes currently sit at around 30-35k~ dps on both small and large.) > > > > > > > > > > Benchmarks only measure potential. Weaver has the largest one, which is fine considering its potential is the least reliable one. Interrupts, retal (low health pool + high numbers of hits per second), boss movement, forced movement... Benchmarks measure none of these. > > > > > > > > While true, top raiders are able to deal near the potential Staff Weavers can. > > > > > > That right there is your problem. No top raider deals 45k dps on an actual fight. Nor is the difference between Weaver and its next competitor as large as it is on the golem, with the exception of KC (if you discount Tempest and compare only to other professions) for obvious reasons. > > > > > > On the other hand, people arguing how staff Weaver is weak in PvP so it should have highest dps are just as silly. All the PvE meta builds are garbage in PvP, and vice versa. > > > > I could pull some recent dps logs from the top raiders to prove my point that weaver dps is still miles ahead over others but Im lazy. Anyways if a Weaver loses some dps from its benchmark, just to deal with mechanics, positioning, delaying Meteor Shower etc, at most if a good player only loses 20% of the potential, which is still higher than most other builds. > > On actual bosses you lose way more than 20% compared to the golem benchmark, and that's for every class (even "easy" ones), not just Weaver. Also not everyone is a top player, especially in pugs. The usual pug weaver to join our group outdpses only the supports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refia Montes.3205 Posted December 19, 2017 Author Share Posted December 19, 2017 > @"SneakyTouchy.6043" said: > I think instead they should be buffing sword and dagger in a way that positively affects PvE without hurting PvP, like extended field durations. > > The damage of weaver staff in PvE makes sense. It's THE hardest and most glassiest class to play without team utility and personal defense. It just doesn't make sense that a ranged and very wide AOE weapon is also the strongest against single targets. Melee should be measuring up or surpassing it just as melee logic does with other classes, yet in the case of weaver, there's absolutely no reason to run those weapons as main hands. > > If they ever do nerf staff, I hope it goes through with the same logic, focusing on field durations so that it doesn't negatively impact PvP. Nobody in their right minds stands in those things for more than a second anyways. I play Sw/Dagger Weaver lots in raids/fracts and I can say it doesn't need anymore buffs and nerfs at the moment. It performs in the same vein as other power specs, and isn't bloated like Staff in damage. If they do plan to buff Sword more, it has to do with utility and range not damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refia Montes.3205 Posted December 19, 2017 Author Share Posted December 19, 2017 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Kundry.1249" said: > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > @"Kundry.1249" said: > > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > > > > SC just released the new for the most recent balance patch, with it showing that it has the best theoretical dps on both small and large. > > > > > > > While I do think Weaver needs some dps to compensate for the reason that it has no to little cc, low health and armor as well as having a bit more complicated rotation, it needs to be down by a bit. 45k dps on Large/36k dps on small with a really large burst upfront, as well as having one of the biggest AoE skills seem absurd to me. (most especially all classes currently sit at around 30-35k~ dps on both small and large.) > > > > > > > > > > > > Benchmarks only measure potential. Weaver has the largest one, which is fine considering its potential is the least reliable one. Interrupts, retal (low health pool + high numbers of hits per second), boss movement, forced movement... Benchmarks measure none of these. > > > > > > > > > > While true, top raiders are able to deal near the potential Staff Weavers can. > > > > > > > > That right there is your problem. No top raider deals 45k dps on an actual fight. Nor is the difference between Weaver and its next competitor as large as it is on the golem, with the exception of KC (if you discount Tempest and compare only to other professions) for obvious reasons. > > > > > > > > On the other hand, people arguing how staff Weaver is weak in PvP so it should have highest dps are just as silly. All the PvE meta builds are garbage in PvP, and vice versa. > > > > > > I could pull some recent dps logs from the top raiders to prove my point that weaver dps is still miles ahead over others but Im lazy. Anyways if a Weaver loses some dps from its benchmark, just to deal with mechanics, positioning, delaying Meteor Shower etc, at most if a good player only loses 20% of the potential, which is still higher than most other builds. > > > > On actual bosses you lose way more than 20% compared to the golem benchmark, and that's for every class (even "easy" ones), not just Weaver. > > Also not everyone is a top player, especially in pugs. The usual pug weaver to join our group outdpses only the supports. Balancing the game around the low average specially FoTM classes, specially a mechanically intensive class like Ele usually hurts diversity. Soon pugs will be filled with Zerk Staff Eles that don't know how to class well and ends up being dead weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Kundry.1249" said: > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > > @"Kundry.1249" said: > > > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > > > > > SC just released the new for the most recent balance patch, with it showing that it has the best theoretical dps on both small and large. > > > > > > > > While I do think Weaver needs some dps to compensate for the reason that it has no to little cc, low health and armor as well as having a bit more complicated rotation, it needs to be down by a bit. 45k dps on Large/36k dps on small with a really large burst upfront, as well as having one of the biggest AoE skills seem absurd to me. (most especially all classes currently sit at around 30-35k~ dps on both small and large.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Benchmarks only measure potential. Weaver has the largest one, which is fine considering its potential is the least reliable one. Interrupts, retal (low health pool + high numbers of hits per second), boss movement, forced movement... Benchmarks measure none of these. > > > > > > > > > > > > While true, top raiders are able to deal near the potential Staff Weavers can. > > > > > > > > > > That right there is your problem. No top raider deals 45k dps on an actual fight. Nor is the difference between Weaver and its next competitor as large as it is on the golem, with the exception of KC (if you discount Tempest and compare only to other professions) for obvious reasons. > > > > > > > > > > On the other hand, people arguing how staff Weaver is weak in PvP so it should have highest dps are just as silly. All the PvE meta builds are garbage in PvP, and vice versa. > > > > > > > > I could pull some recent dps logs from the top raiders to prove my point that weaver dps is still miles ahead over others but Im lazy. Anyways if a Weaver loses some dps from its benchmark, just to deal with mechanics, positioning, delaying Meteor Shower etc, at most if a good player only loses 20% of the potential, which is still higher than most other builds. > > > > > > On actual bosses you lose way more than 20% compared to the golem benchmark, and that's for every class (even "easy" ones), not just Weaver. > > > > Also not everyone is a top player, especially in pugs. The usual pug weaver to join our group outdpses only the supports. > > Balancing the game around the low average specially FoTM classes, specially a mechanically intensive class like Ele usually hurts diversity. Soon pugs will be filled with Zerk Staff Eles that don't know how to class well and ends up being dead weight. I don't believe that. Not anymore, not in a game where arcdps and raidar are a thing. I don't think there are many raid/t4+cm groups without at least one arc running. Sure, there will be many wanna-be eles but they will eventually get the gist when everyone tells them how bad they are performing, and either git gud or move to easier class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obcan.1470 Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 Why nerf class that has smallest hp pool lowest armor, highest rotation difficulty, highest mechanical difficulty, has to learn every single encounter to know when and where to cast spells, also has 0 support, 0 CC that doesnt result in DPS loss big enough to put you in place with Warrior, 3.5 seconds cast time on highest dps spell, deals 45k dps only on 4 things in whole game, is reliant on both chrono and druid? If anything Weaver only needs buff on sword to finally make it usefull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obcan.1470 Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > @"SneakyTouchy.6043" said: > > I think instead they should be buffing sword and dagger in a way that positively affects PvE without hurting PvP, like extended field durations. > > > > The damage of weaver staff in PvE makes sense. It's THE hardest and most glassiest class to play without team utility and personal defense. It just doesn't make sense that a ranged and very wide AOE weapon is also the strongest against single targets. Melee should be measuring up or surpassing it just as melee logic does with other classes, yet in the case of weaver, there's absolutely no reason to run those weapons as main hands. > > > > If they ever do nerf staff, I hope it goes through with the same logic, focusing on field durations so that it doesn't negatively impact PvP. Nobody in their right minds stands in those things for more than a second anyways. > > I play Sw/Dagger Weaver lots in raids/fracts and I can say it doesn't need anymore buffs and nerfs at the moment. It performs in the same vein as other power specs, and isn't bloated like Staff in damage. If they do plan to buff Sword more, it has to do with utility and range not damage. im feeling like you want staff weaver to get nerfed because you cant raid with sword. Be carefull what you wish for because anet balance team is ran by apes. If staff gets nerfed, everything gets nerfed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mygamingid.5816 Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > Could we stay on topic? I know staff PvP Weaver is trash, whether or not it's buffed or nerfed it doesn't really matter, since Staff is tad too slow for PvP. > > And... no one presented a sound argument why Staff shouldn't be nerfed in a PvE scenario... Berserker Weaver is the least survivable spec, in the least survivable gear, that offers that least support. It _should_ be top DPS. It also requires two things to be useful: 1) a massive immobile target; and 2) a full carry by raid meta support specs. Raid event design fed the spec by making a ton of immobile, massive raid bosses. As long as those are still around, Staff Weaver has a place. Outside of those, it doesn't register. If anything, I'd like to see the big raid bosses' AI adjusted to make them run around more, like bounties in PoF. That would weaken both the stacking meta and the impact of multi-strike AOEs. With that crutch out of the way, Elementalists could be buffed, not nerfed, and all Elementalist specs would benefit in all game modes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refia Montes.3205 Posted December 20, 2017 Author Share Posted December 20, 2017 > @"mygamingid.5816" said: > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > Could we stay on topic? I know staff PvP Weaver is trash, whether or not it's buffed or nerfed it doesn't really matter, since Staff is tad too slow for PvP. > > > > And... no one presented a sound argument why Staff shouldn't be nerfed in a PvE scenario... > > Berserker Weaver is the least survivable spec, in the least survivable gear, that offers that least support. It _should_ be top DPS. It also requires two things to be useful: 1) a massive immobile target; and 2) a full carry by raid meta support specs. Raid event design fed the spec by making a ton of immobile, massive raid bosses. As long as those are still around, Staff Weaver has a place. Outside of those, it doesn't register. > > If anything, I'd like to see the big raid bosses' AI adjusted to make them run around more, like bounties in PoF. That would weaken both the stacking meta and the impact of multi-strike AOEs. With that crutch out of the way, Elementalists could be buffed, not nerfed, and all Elementalist specs would benefit in all game modes. Point number 2 is never a problem since you should always have a druid and chrono in a raid. Point 1, I agree with, Meteor Showers and other multihit AoE damaging ablilities get a lot of dps loss when the targets move out of the fields. Another when its a small target making multihits hit less than average. However, you have to consider that with a good Chrono tank can hold a target in place. Not to mention the massive burst potential the class has with the number of high damaging skills it has and in addition to the size of AoE skills it has. There's a reason why Weaver has been listed by Qtfy and Snowcrows in their websites as meta on most cases and effective on everything else. I never said that Staff Weaver should ever be nerfed to oblivion, I just think its strengths, insanely high dps with no ramp up, burst, range and AoE definitely outweigh its cons, long channel times, rotational complexity, little to no self sustain and no support and CC. For a dps class most top raiders (and arguably pugs) would only look for Ele's pros for most scenarios as the cons of the class are covered by the supports. Sidenote: I play Staff Weaver as well, but I really think its better if Ele had more variability if Staff wouldn't be better than every weapon even on small targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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