Do You Raid?

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"FrostDraco.8306" said:

> > >

> > > Dungeons failed, so this point is moot.

> > They didn't _fail_. They were _abandoned_. Big difference.

>

> Dungeons may have succeeded as content for players who do not care as much about the whole hard-instanced-MMO-content construct. That was not the design intent, though. Dungeons lacked the _need_ for coordination by skilled groups of players, which was the original intent. They were abandoned _because they failed_ at their intended purpose, to be the game's equivalent of raids.

Care to support that with a source? Because the main reasons why they were abandoned that i saw all commented only on their messy code that just took too much of an effort to fix.

Also, up until the very moment Anet decided to cut their lifeline, they were still extremely popular. Can't really call that a failure.

(also, i have already commented on that "equivalent of raids" before - i'm pretty sure you are reading way too much in those statements than they meant)

 

[DearlyMe.5320]

I'd love to see the stories, but no. I hear too much about toxic people to bother. I take games at my leisure. I aim for the best gear I can find, but on my time since I stick to PvE and don't necessarily _need_ that better gear for it. I prefer PvE. Plus, I also like using my gold to buy skins and minis and my crafting is still way too low to make my own stuff. So I'll stay out on the maps for now.

[trianglecubed.3750]

I'd like to because I want legendary weapons and armor really badly but the amount of time and effort it would require plus the amount of gold I'd need to spend to even attempt starting simply wouldn't be worth it to me. I don't want to devote all of my time to just raiding and I sure as heck don't want to be a bannerslave or be forced into a very specific role with a very specific meta build. I like being able to focus on abilities and specializations that are a bit more flashy and fun for me than mastering a meta rotation of a meta build so I can best support my raid in whatever role I'd end up in.

 

For me it's fun to try to find the best balance between solo survivability and damage to the point that I can solo numerous mobs at once or even solo many of the various hero HoT hero point champions. As a raider I wouldn't have that. I'd have a very specific role and be expected to completely focus on that role, gear, stats, everything.

[Svarty.8019]

> @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > We can only hope this poll informs some design decisions.

>

> You do realize the developers for this game know exactly how many people raid, what bosses are killed and how many times and basically every bit of info you could get your hands on?

I don't believe that. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the metric tools were too expensive, production wise, to invest in.

 

[STIHL.2489]

> @"trianglecubed.3750" said:

> I'd like to because I want legendary weapons and armor really badly but the amount of time and effort it would require plus the amount of gold I'd need to spend to even attempt starting simply wouldn't be worth it to me.

 

You don't need to raid to make a legendary weapon.. try making one of those first.

[Zoltreez.6435]

> @"Super Hayes.6890" said:

> I accept that I don't have the time or skill. What burns me is that there isn't an option to play the raids on an easy setting with zero rewards so I can at least experience the story. I'm stuck reading a wiki for that :(

 

yep i never in my life gonna ever see DHUUM in this game... Locking a Core Lore figure in the GW world away into Raids.... THX ANET !!!!! not....

[ListenToMe.5130]

> @"Mea.5491" said:

> I don't see the point of raids considering the fact that Legendary gear offers the same stats as Ascended and I can craft the latter for dirt cheap. I also don't need the side effects of raids in my life (aka rude players).

 

The point of raids is to experience challenging content. Rewards are mostly secondary.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"FrostDraco.8306" said:

> > > >

> > > > Dungeons failed, so this point is moot.

> > > They didn't _fail_. They were _abandoned_. Big difference.

> >

> > Dungeons may have succeeded as content for players who do not care as much about the whole hard-instanced-MMO-content construct. That was not the design intent, though. Dungeons lacked the _need_ for coordination by skilled groups of players, which was the original intent. They were abandoned _because they failed_ at their intended purpose, to be the game's equivalent of raids.

> Care to support that with a source? Because the main reasons why they were abandoned that i saw all commented only on their messy code that just took too much of an effort to fix.

> Also, up until the very moment Anet decided to cut their lifeline, they were still extremely popular. Can't really call that a failure.

> (also, i have already commented on that "equivalent of raids" before - i'm pretty sure you are reading way too much in those statements than they meant)

 

You want evidence in the form of an ANet statement? Haven't got one. Do you?

 

I find it interesting that you pooh-pooh some ANet statements and take others as gospel.

 

Besides, the day I believe that what ANet tells us is the whole story is the day I give up my cynicism license.

 

That said, how would developers feel if their game's hardest content was:

 

+ soloed regularly?

+ trivialized to the point where many paths could be done in a few minutes, all the time?

+ players used maybe 15% of what their characters could do and ignored everything else?

+ beset with constant comments, for years, about this hardest content being "face-roll easy?"

 

I know how I'd feel. I do believe that the effort needed to fix those issues was more trouble then they were worth, but not that the oft-cited spaghetti code excuse is the whole story.

 

Dungeons were popular for two reasons: for a long time, rewards for doing them regularly were competitive with playing in other areas of the PvE game; and because they were easy enough to be accessible to a much wider demographic than ANet said they were aimed at.

[Seteruss.4058]

No need of that kind of toxicity ty.

[Mea.5491]

> @"ListenToMe.5130" said:

> > @"Mea.5491" said:

> > I don't see the point of raids considering the fact that Legendary gear offers the same stats as Ascended and I can craft the latter for dirt cheap. I also don't need the side effects of raids in my life (aka rude players).

>

> The point of raids is to experience challenging content. Rewards are mostly secondary.

 

If I want challenge, I log off and play real life. :(

[Essence Snow.3194]

> @"ListenToMe.5130" said:

> > @"Mea.5491" said:

> > I don't see the point of raids considering the fact that Legendary gear offers the same stats as Ascended and I can craft the latter for dirt cheap. I also don't need the side effects of raids in my life (aka rude players).

>

> The point of raids is to experience challenging content. Rewards are mostly secondary.

 

Gonna have to disagree here. Take away the unique rewards and raids would most likely completely die. This has been shown through the lack of players self imposing difficulty upon themselves. Since it doesn't offer any extra incentive than regular difficulty, it is very, very rarely done. Those that do usually record and post it for the fanfare.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

> @"Essence Snow.3194" said:

> > @"ListenToMe.5130" said:

> > > @"Mea.5491" said:

> > > I don't see the point of raids considering the fact that Legendary gear offers the same stats as Ascended and I can craft the latter for dirt cheap. I also don't need the side effects of raids in my life (aka rude players).

> >

> > The point of raids is to experience challenging content. Rewards are mostly secondary.

>

> Gonna have to disagree here. Take away the unique rewards and raids would most likely completely die. This has been shown through the lack of players self imposing difficulty upon themselves. Since it doesn't offer any extra incentive than regular difficulty, it is very, very rarely done. Those that do usually record and post it for the fanfare.

 

So if dungeons got more meaningful rewards people would do them? Brilliant!

 

[Lunateric.3708]

> @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > > @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > > We can only hope this poll informs some design decisions.

> >

> > You do realize the developers for this game know exactly how many people raid, what bosses are killed and how many times and basically every bit of info you could get your hands on?

> I don't believe that. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the metric tools were too expensive, production wise, to invest in.

>

 

I apologize for bursting your bubble but Chris Cleary, something like the head of security of ANET (known for the Quip Challenge amongst other things) already shared info like that on raids and would probably do it for other game modes, you can check this tweet responses for more stats regarding raids:

 

*

 

Ben (fractal dev) often mentions they keep metrics like clear times too.

 

As in they actually can tell things like how many people a raid boss kill or how long people take to clear an instance. Nothing "expensive" there.

 

 

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > > @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > > We can only hope this poll informs some design decisions.

> >

> > You do realize the developers for this game know exactly how many people raid, what bosses are killed and how many times and basically every bit of info you could get your hands on?

> >

> > And they still make raids, can you read between lines?

>

> I am sure they have the numbers.. but what they don't have is the "why".

>

> "Why do those people raid and these people don't?"

>

> And any developer that is not asking that question is not invested into their work.

 

So are you telling me you believe the devs aren't invested in their work or are you telling me you know the reasons behind all this better than they do?

 

Both things are just assumptions on your part but want to know what assumption is the one you're making.

[Rhatha.2376]

Not to the point of clearing everything, but I recently found a training community and have been killing a half dozen of the easier/middling difficulty bosses a week while learning the rest slowly.

 

Despite what some may say, the raid content isn't "easy" during the learning phase, it becomes that way once you and the people you're grouping with have all figured it out and practiced enough to do the mechanics without too many major mistakes. It takes time to get there, and if you're not with the same group each week, it can take even more time.

 

There's also the problem of nothing in the game really teaching you how to dps/do your rotations well. In many cases, it feels really spammy, too.. compared to other MMOs that have a global cooldown, dpsing efficiently can feel pretty frantic on every class, let alone something like a weaver. High level fractals have similar mechanical requirements, but in most cases if your dps is a little lower you'll get there if you are good enough at staying alive. That's true for a couple of raid bosses, but not most of them.

 

All that said, I'm enjoying the content, I just wish it was far less frustrating to learn the underlying knowledge that you're expected to have ("go hit a dps golem for an hour" might be effective, but it sure isn't fun).

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > > > @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > > > We can only hope this poll informs some design decisions.

> > >

> > > You do realize the developers for this game know exactly how many people raid, what bosses are killed and how many times and basically every bit of info you could get your hands on?

> > >

> > > And they still make raids, can you read between lines?

> >

> > I am sure they have the numbers.. but what they don't have is the "why".

> >

> > "Why do those people raid and these people don't?"

> >

> > And any developer that is not asking that question is not invested into their work.

>

> So are you telling me you believe the devs aren't invested in their work or are you telling me you know the reasons behind all this better than they do?

>

> Both things are just assumptions on your part but want to know what assumption is the one you're making.

 

No.. I am telling you that coming to these forums, and reading the posts, connecting with the community, will give them insight that metrics can't... and that.. is not an assumption that is a fact.

[Chamelion.9536]

> @"FrostDraco.8306" said:

> > @"Chamelion.9536" said:

> > "Other" Seen far, far, FAR too many posts about the toxicity of having to be perfect, or otherwise 'git gud' before even getting into it. I'm a casual player who would love to delve into new content, but I want to only have fun, not work my kitten off for what little reward their may be. Did that with HoT masteries (LOL).

> >

> > C

>

> Implying HoT masteries were hard work. Delving is work.

>

> So when you say you 'would like to delve'. You are lying. Because if you wanted to delve into something you would put in the work to do so.

>

> If you are unwilling to work for something you want, then you never really wanted in the first place. You just say and 'think' you do.

 

What an idiotic response. It's like you cherry picked keywords and replied in such a way as to not even understand the entire premise of my response. No, I don't want to delve into raiding because I hear too many 'horror' stories to bother.... I do like new content (bought both expansions, log in day one to living world), but to have fun, not to deal with elitists/jerks and those who don't have patience for 'newbies'.. which I would be until I got gud. There's enough of that in good ol regular PVE maps, anyway.

 

The very old, cliche' and worthless "It wasn't difficult for me to do 'so-n-so' so I can't accept it may have been more challenging for someone else" is pathetic. Some of the HOT masteries took me longer to accomplish than it did for others, but I'm maxed out so I 'delved in' and learned and got it done. Of course, I didn't need to group with nine others that expected me to be perfect from the get-go, I could re-do, re-try and learn at my pace.. just took longer than others.

 

 

[Lunateric.3708]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > > > > @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > > > > We can only hope this poll informs some design decisions.

> > > >

> > > > You do realize the developers for this game know exactly how many people raid, what bosses are killed and how many times and basically every bit of info you could get your hands on?

> > > >

> > > > And they still make raids, can you read between lines?

> > >

> > > I am sure they have the numbers.. but what they don't have is the "why".

> > >

> > > "Why do those people raid and these people don't?"

> > >

> > > And any developer that is not asking that question is not invested into their work.

> >

> > So are you telling me you believe the devs aren't invested in their work or are you telling me you know the reasons behind all this better than they do?

> >

> > Both things are just assumptions on your part but want to know what assumption is the one you're making.

>

> No.. I am telling you that coming to these forums, and reading the posts, connecting with the community, will give them insight that metrics can't... and that.. is not an assumption that is a fact.

 

They do read the posts, that of course doesn't mean they have to answer to anyone.

 

Things you believe in aren't facts or rather shouldn't be if you want healthy discussion and so far most people here have been treating beliefs as some sort of panacea. Not like it matters because the ship is going full speed ahead.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > > > > > @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > > > > > We can only hope this poll informs some design decisions.

> > > > >

> > > > > You do realize the developers for this game know exactly how many people raid, what bosses are killed and how many times and basically every bit of info you could get your hands on?

> > > > >

> > > > > And they still make raids, can you read between lines?

> > > >

> > > > I am sure they have the numbers.. but what they don't have is the "why".

> > > >

> > > > "Why do those people raid and these people don't?"

> > > >

> > > > And any developer that is not asking that question is not invested into their work.

> > >

> > > So are you telling me you believe the devs aren't invested in their work or are you telling me you know the reasons behind all this better than they do?

> > >

> > > Both things are just assumptions on your part but want to know what assumption is the one you're making.

> >

> > No.. I am telling you that coming to these forums, and reading the posts, connecting with the community, will give them insight that metrics can't... and that.. is not an assumption that is a fact.

>

> They do read the posts, that of course doesn't mean they have to answer to anyone.

>

> Things you believe in aren't facts or rather shouldn't be if you want healthy discussion and so far most people here have been treating beliefs as some sort of panacea. Not like it matters because the ship is going full speed ahead.

 

Asking why people do/n't play content will answer why they do/n't play that content better then a number on a screen telling you they do/n't play that content, is a self evident truth.

 

It's not anything you or I have control over.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > > > @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > > > We can only hope this poll informs some design decisions.

> > >

> > > You do realize the developers for this game know exactly how many people raid, what bosses are killed and how many times and basically every bit of info you could get your hands on?

> > >

> > > And they still make raids, can you read between lines?

> >

> > I am sure they have the numbers.. but what they don't have is the "why".

> >

> > "Why do those people raid and these people don't?"

> >

> > And any developer that is not asking that question is not invested into their work.

>

> So are you telling me you believe the devs aren't invested in their work or are you telling me you know the reasons behind all this better than they do?

No. He's telling you that numbers from metrics are not enough, and threads like this one where people explain the "why" are of at least an equal worth to the devs. Because without player feedback it's easy to misinterpret the metrics.

 

Just remember, that the devs once decided to remove one of the dungeon paths, because their metrics were showing that it was the least run path of all dungeons (meaning, almost noone was running it). Then remember _why_ almost noone was running it (which was the info _not_ present in Anet's metrics).

 

That was a really good example on how reading the metrics alone can go really, really wrong.

[Sarrs.4831]

I would love to raid and am an experienced raider, I simply haven't found the time to do it in GW2. There is still tons of content which I need to do which don't have the organizational requirements of raiding; I haven't even finished my Dungeon achievements, or the new Fractals since Chaos.

[TheGrimm.5624]

Thanks again for all those providing feedback!

[Menmaro.4607]

I don't understand half of the comments here about raiding being for elitists or sadists or the such. I raid regularly and even if I've already cleared a boss I will go and help training raids for that boss to invite as many people as I can into this community. Sure there are a few people out there who stick to the LI requirement. But I've often times joined groups who require a certain amount of LI which I haven't achieved but by speaking to the commander I can convince (and by showing kp) that I can do the raids. I will be given a chance and if I can't deliver then I expect to be kicked. If I still need to learn the boss I would have to organise a training raid for that boss, not join a group that know what they're doing and expect them to carry me.

 

Also the time requirement. I started off doing purely pugging raids. Literally my first clear was with a pug where everyone in that pug had not done this boss at all. Yet we learned the mechanics, learned the rotations, had the correct gear and we spent about 2 hours on that one boss (Vale Guardian). But my God was it an incredible feeling when we finally defeated it and I finally got my first LI.

 

Don't get me wrong, 2 hours doesn't mean it's uninterupted and it was only 2 hours because there was no-one there to guide us (tell us what to do and such), we had to remind each other what we should all do. If you were to join a training raid made by a group of experienced raiders (my guild and I do this) then you would definitely clear it much faster). Nowadays I only need to spare an hour of my time to clear a raid wing and I've only been raiding for about 2 months (with large breaks inbetween). Also I saw a comment earlier saying it was funny how PvEr's pretended that PvE requires skill. I PvP on a regular basis and WvW. I can honestly say hand on heart that if you think t4 fractals and raids don't require skill then I challenge you to complete a single raid wing on CM without being whiped.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

pve and pve raiding are different things. You can in fact PVE with little skill, but not raid. You will get slaughtered in pvp. As for PVE raidng it needs a very different skill from wvw and pvp, where the former requires rote memorization of limited rotations and boss scripted events and the latter requires deep knowledge of **ALL** classes and skills to be able to react to your opponent and to know when to attack/defend.

[Lunateric.3708]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > > > > @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > > > > We can only hope this poll informs some design decisions.

> > > >

> > > > You do realize the developers for this game know exactly how many people raid, what bosses are killed and how many times and basically every bit of info you could get your hands on?

> > > >

> > > > And they still make raids, can you read between lines?

> > >

> > > I am sure they have the numbers.. but what they don't have is the "why".

> > >

> > > "Why do those people raid and these people don't?"

> > >

> > > And any developer that is not asking that question is not invested into their work.

> >

> > So are you telling me you believe the devs aren't invested in their work or are you telling me you know the reasons behind all this better than they do?

> No. He's telling you that numbers from metrics are not enough, and threads like this one where people explain the "why" are of at least an equal worth to the devs. Because without player feedback it's easy to misinterpret the metrics.

>

> Just remember, that the devs once decided to remove one of the dungeon paths, because their metrics were showing that it was the least run path of all dungeons (meaning, almost noone was running it). Then remember _why_ almost noone was running it (which was the info _not_ present in Anet's metrics).

>

> That was a really good example on how reading the metrics alone can go really, really wrong.

 

They do have player feedback and they do have metrics so I fail to see what is the issue or the thing that is going wrong in the particular case of raids, they had their "why" since the moment they introduced raids and always aimed it to be a niche the same way ranked PvP or WvW are.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> > > > > > @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > > > > > We can only hope this poll informs some design decisions.

> > > > >

> > > > > You do realize the developers for this game know exactly how many people raid, what bosses are killed and how many times and basically every bit of info you could get your hands on?

> > > > >

> > > > > And they still make raids, can you read between lines?

> > > >

> > > > I am sure they have the numbers.. but what they don't have is the "why".

> > > >

> > > > "Why do those people raid and these people don't?"

> > > >

> > > > And any developer that is not asking that question is not invested into their work.

> > >

> > > So are you telling me you believe the devs aren't invested in their work or are you telling me you know the reasons behind all this better than they do?

> > No. He's telling you that numbers from metrics are not enough, and threads like this one where people explain the "why" are of at least an equal worth to the devs. Because without player feedback it's easy to misinterpret the metrics.

> >

> > Just remember, that the devs once decided to remove one of the dungeon paths, because their metrics were showing that it was the least run path of all dungeons (meaning, almost noone was running it). Then remember _why_ almost noone was running it (which was the info _not_ present in Anet's metrics).

> >

> > That was a really good example on how reading the metrics alone can go really, really wrong.

>

> They do have player feedback and they do have metrics so I fail to see what is the issue or the thing that is going wrong in the particular case of raids, they had their "why" since the moment they introduced raids and always aimed it to be a niche the same way ranked PvP of WvW are.

 

The player feed back is this forum.