Mirage Specialization Updates for the Path of Fire Launch

[Abelisk.4527]

> @Exciton.8942 said:

> > @Daharahj.1325 said:

> > > The jaunt elite is so bad. It´s just porting arount within such a small range. This is still to less.

> >

> > Jaunt is meant to be used offensively, 400 range was fine and 450 still is. Do you expect them to give us 3 charges of Blink on a 20 second cooldown?

>

> Meanwhile, S/D thief can use their 900 range port in and out of combat repeatedly.

>

> And I thought mirage was supposed to be letting mesmer doing a bit of thief things?

 

That requires a target though. If Blink had a 900 range, you'd be untouchable.

 

A closer analogy to S/D thief would be Mirage Advance, which is a complete downgrade to Sword 2...

[Zenith.7301]

> @Ojimaru.8970 said:

> I really don't agree with using the arguments of "because a Thief can do X, therefore Mirage must be able to do X." This Mirage is not a Thief and therefore doesn't need to be able to be able to _exactly_ mimic a Thief's capabilities. A Mirage may be "a Thief as seen through a Mesmer," but again that doesn't mean it should have the exact same mobility, deception, or damage options as a Thief, _because the Mirage is not a Thief_.

 

You're right. Mirage is not a thief, just a worse version of one. What a wonderful thing to be the inferior unique snowflake. Nothing better than being uniquely bad in PvE.

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> > @Ojimaru.8970 said:

> > I really don't agree with using the arguments of "because a Thief can do X, therefore Mirage must be able to do X." This Mirage is not a Thief and therefore doesn't need to be able to be able to _exactly_ mimic a Thief's capabilities. A Mirage may be "a Thief as seen through a Mesmer," but again that doesn't mean it should have the exact same mobility, deception, or damage options as a Thief, _because the Mirage is not a Thief_.

>

> You're right. Mirage is not a thief, just a worse version of one. What a wonderful thing to be the inferior unique snowflake. Nothing better than being uniquely bad in PvE.

 

Lucky pve is 1/3 of the Game.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > @Ojimaru.8970 said:

> > > I really don't agree with using the arguments of "because a Thief can do X, therefore Mirage must be able to do X." This Mirage is not a Thief and therefore doesn't need to be able to be able to _exactly_ mimic a Thief's capabilities. A Mirage may be "a Thief as seen through a Mesmer," but again that doesn't mean it should have the exact same mobility, deception, or damage options as a Thief, _because the Mirage is not a Thief_.

> >

> > You're right. Mirage is not a thief, just a worse version of one. What a wonderful thing to be the inferior unique snowflake. Nothing better than being uniquely bad in PvE.

>

> Lucky pve is 1/3 of the Game.

 

Mirage will not be good in Spvp or WvW either. The only people that will seriously be trying to run it are people that don't know any better.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > @Ojimaru.8970 said:

> > > I really don't agree with using the arguments of "because a Thief can do X, therefore Mirage must be able to do X." This Mirage is not a Thief and therefore doesn't need to be able to be able to _exactly_ mimic a Thief's capabilities. A Mirage may be "a Thief as seen through a Mesmer," but again that doesn't mean it should have the exact same mobility, deception, or damage options as a Thief, _because the Mirage is not a Thief_.

> >

> > You're right. Mirage is not a thief, just a worse version of one. What a wonderful thing to be the inferior unique snowflake. Nothing better than being uniquely bad in PvE.

>

> Lucky pve is 1/3 of the Game.

 

Well, it's gonna be niche at best in instanced PvE. It'll be absolute trash in WvW group compositions still. It'll be usable in open world pve and roaming WvW, that's about it.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > > @Ojimaru.8970 said:

> > > > I really don't agree with using the arguments of "because a Thief can do X, therefore Mirage must be able to do X." This Mirage is not a Thief and therefore doesn't need to be able to be able to _exactly_ mimic a Thief's capabilities. A Mirage may be "a Thief as seen through a Mesmer," but again that doesn't mean it should have the exact same mobility, deception, or damage options as a Thief, _because the Mirage is not a Thief_.

> > >

> > > You're right. Mirage is not a thief, just a worse version of one. What a wonderful thing to be the inferior unique snowflake. Nothing better than being uniquely bad in PvE.

> >

> > Lucky pve is 1/3 of the Game.

>

> Well, it's gonna be niche at best in instanced PvE. It'll be absolute trash in WvW group compositions still. It'll be usable in open world pve and roaming WvW, that's about it.

 

Can we stop saying stuff like "Usable in open world pve." as any metric of anything ever? _Everything _is usable in open world pve. Nomad Shout Heal warriors are usable in open world pve.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @mortrialus.3062 said:

> > @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > > > @Ojimaru.8970 said:

> > > > > I really don't agree with using the arguments of "because a Thief can do X, therefore Mirage must be able to do X." This Mirage is not a Thief and therefore doesn't need to be able to be able to _exactly_ mimic a Thief's capabilities. A Mirage may be "a Thief as seen through a Mesmer," but again that doesn't mean it should have the exact same mobility, deception, or damage options as a Thief, _because the Mirage is not a Thief_.

> > > >

> > > > You're right. Mirage is not a thief, just a worse version of one. What a wonderful thing to be the inferior unique snowflake. Nothing better than being uniquely bad in PvE.

> > >

> > > Lucky pve is 1/3 of the Game.

> >

> > Well, it's gonna be niche at best in instanced PvE. It'll be absolute trash in WvW group compositions still. It'll be usable in open world pve and roaming WvW, that's about it.

>

> Can we stop saying stuff like "Usable in open world pve." as any metric of anything ever? _Everything _is usable in open world pve. Nomad Shout Heal warriors are usable in open world pve.

 

It's part of the game, it deserves to be mentioned. Don't get all up in arms about it unless open world pve is being used to justify changes or lack thereof.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > @mortrialus.3062 said:

> > > @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > > > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > > > > @Ojimaru.8970 said:

> > > > > > I really don't agree with using the arguments of "because a Thief can do X, therefore Mirage must be able to do X." This Mirage is not a Thief and therefore doesn't need to be able to be able to _exactly_ mimic a Thief's capabilities. A Mirage may be "a Thief as seen through a Mesmer," but again that doesn't mean it should have the exact same mobility, deception, or damage options as a Thief, _because the Mirage is not a Thief_.

> > > > >

> > > > > You're right. Mirage is not a thief, just a worse version of one. What a wonderful thing to be the inferior unique snowflake. Nothing better than being uniquely bad in PvE.

> > > >

> > > > Lucky pve is 1/3 of the Game.

> > >

> > > Well, it's gonna be niche at best in instanced PvE. It'll be absolute trash in WvW group compositions still. It'll be usable in open world pve and roaming WvW, that's about it.

> >

> > Can we stop saying stuff like "Usable in open world pve." as any metric of anything ever? _Everything _is usable in open world pve. Nomad Shout Heal warriors are usable in open world pve.

>

> It's part of the game, it deserves to be mentioned. Don't get all up in arms about it unless open world pve is being used to justify changes or lack thereof.

 

I'm not really "up in arms" about it. It's just silly. It's like saying "X class can log into the game."

[FaboBabo.3581]

100% mirrage will delete players in WvW and PvP roaming. It never was easier to pull out 3 illusions in the start of a fight like it is with mirrage. U dont need ur Phantasms for the opening burst shatter combo anymore and can use it afterwards. Deceptive evasion dodge- First clone , sword ambush , second clone , jaunt self deception third clone. Bunkering Points with F4 into 3 possible mirrors all near the points -> u wanna stay on point anyways in most cases, therefore less worries about positioning. Illusionary ambush 10 sec cd reduced to 20 seconds is huge too...

 

And yeah for Pve i expect something like 30k dps. Not perfect for raiding, cause no group support, but still totally solid to play.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> 100% mirrage will delete players in WvW and PvP roaming. It never was easier to pull out 3 illusions in the start of a fight like it is with mirrage. U dont need ur Phantasms for the opening burst shatter combo anymore and can use it afterwards. Deceptive evasion dodge- First clone , sword ambush , second clone , jaunt self deception third clone. Bunkering Points with F4 into 3 possible mirrors all near the points -> u wanna stay on point anyways in most cases, therefore less worries about positioning. Illusionary ambush 10 sec cd reduced to 20 seconds is huge too...

>

> And yeah for Pve i expect something like 30k dps. Not perfect for raiding, cause no group support, but still totally solid to play.

 

There's nooooo way based on current numbers Mirage is getting close to 30k dps. Condition mesmer is 26k dps and Mirage is a slight upgrade over that at best.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> 100% mirrage will delete players in WvW and PvP roaming. It never was easier to pull out 3 illusions in the start of a fight like it is with mirrage. U dont need ur Phantasms for the opening burst shatter combo anymore and can use it afterwards. Deceptive evasion dodge- First clone , sword ambush , second clone , jaunt self deception third clone.

 

Because DE -> point blank mirror blade -> shatter wasn't enough to delete people already? Illusion generation isn't an exceptional thing, it's a basic expected capability of almost all mesmer builds.

[atlashugged.7642]

> @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > 100% mirrage will delete players in WvW and PvP roaming. It never was easier to pull out 3 illusions in the start of a fight like it is with mirrage. U dont need ur Phantasms for the opening burst shatter combo anymore and can use it afterwards. Deceptive evasion dodge- First clone , sword ambush , second clone , jaunt self deception third clone.

>

> Because DE -> point blank mirror blade -> shatter wasn't enough to delete people already? Illusion generation isn't an exceptional thing, it's a basic expected capability of almost all mesmer builds.

 

Before you couldn't actually do damage while you were using deceptive evasion. In the combo that FaboBabo illustrated, instead of having 3/4ths of a second doing nothing, you're generating 2 clones while dealing damage, stacking some conditions, and possibly dazing someone. Seems good to me.

[Unknown.3976]

Good changes but those changes just ain't enough, Mirage will likely be a niche build, a selfish spec with questionable dps. It will see play in WvW as a roaming build but core mesmer has always seen play as a roamer so... *shrugs*

 

I guess Mirage is a love letter to roamers. As for its' performances in other modes, we will have to see but I have absolutely no faith in its' PvE prowess.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @atlashugged.7642 said:

> > @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > 100% mirrage will delete players in WvW and PvP roaming. It never was easier to pull out 3 illusions in the start of a fight like it is with mirrage. U dont need ur Phantasms for the opening burst shatter combo anymore and can use it afterwards. Deceptive evasion dodge- First clone , sword ambush , second clone , jaunt self deception third clone.

> >

> > Because DE -> point blank mirror blade -> shatter wasn't enough to delete people already? Illusion generation isn't an exceptional thing, it's a basic expected capability of almost all mesmer builds.

>

> Before you couldn't actually do damage while you were using deceptive evasion. In the combo that FaboBabo illustrated, instead of having 3/4ths of a second doing nothing, you're generating 2 clones while dealing damage, stacking some conditions, and possibly dazing someone. Seems good to me.

 

Because the 3/4 of a second that you have to channel to start that combo doesn't count? That combo is significantly more obvious and easy to dodge than the point blank instant mirror blade combo.

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > 100% mirrage will delete players in WvW and PvP roaming. It never was easier to pull out 3 illusions in the start of a fight like it is with mirrage. U dont need ur Phantasms for the opening burst shatter combo anymore and can use it afterwards. Deceptive evasion dodge- First clone , sword ambush , second clone , jaunt self deception third clone.

>

> Because DE -> point blank mirror blade -> shatter wasn't enough to delete people already? Illusion generation isn't an exceptional thing, it's a basic expected capability of almost all mesmer builds.

 

Gotta go more indeep; u got the possibilty of doin this way more often then with core Mes. u Can do this twice in a row, only changing F1 to F2 , and still got ur Mirror blade and even ur Berserk on the other weapon set. U do even got the Phantasm on your current weapon set.

 

In the pure comparison between self deception and illusionary reversion, I'd put self deception higher then illusionary reversion.

And we all know how bad illusionary reversion is right ?

Another thing which makes the combo less easy to dodge is the fact that u can sowrd ambush first, increasing it's range with Jaunt, still applying every trait.

[Zenith.7301]

> @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > @Ojimaru.8970 said:

> > > I really don't agree with using the arguments of "because a Thief can do X, therefore Mirage must be able to do X." This Mirage is not a Thief and therefore doesn't need to be able to be able to _exactly_ mimic a Thief's capabilities. A Mirage may be "a Thief as seen through a Mesmer," but again that doesn't mean it should have the exact same mobility, deception, or damage options as a Thief, _because the Mirage is not a Thief_.

> >

> > You're right. Mirage is not a thief, just a worse version of one. What a wonderful thing to be the inferior unique snowflake. Nothing better than being uniquely bad in PvE.

>

> Lucky pve is 1/3 of the Game.

 

As if people play 3/3 of a game format. By that brilliant logic it would be fine if PvE didn't exist at all, since you can play two formats you have zero interest in.

[atlashugged.7642]

> @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> Because the 3/4 of a second that you have to channel to start that combo doesn't count? That combo is significantly more obvious and easy to dodge than the point blank instant mirror blade combo.

 

As I understand it, both mirror blade and mirage thrust have a 3/4 of a second cast time. In addition to the cast time of mirror blade, you've also got the 3/4th of a second dodge time in there. You have to use Blink to mitigate the cast time by starting it far away from them and instant casting to them.

 

With mirage, you Evade, which lasts 1 second. During that second, you cast mirage thrust, which takes up 3/4th of the second. while casting thrust, you can also use your instant cast jaunt to arrive next to your opponent. At that point, mirage thrust should be finished casting, you're flying instantly into the guy, and you have 3 illusions ready to shatter.

[Esplen.3940]

> @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > 100% mirrage will delete players in WvW and PvP roaming. It never was easier to pull out 3 illusions in the start of a fight like it is with mirrage. U dont need ur Phantasms for the opening burst shatter combo anymore and can use it afterwards. Deceptive evasion dodge- First clone , sword ambush , second clone , jaunt self deception third clone.

> >

> > Because DE -> point blank mirror blade -> shatter wasn't enough to delete people already? Illusion generation isn't an exceptional thing, it's a basic expected capability of almost all mesmer builds.

>

> Gotta go more indeep; u got the possibilty of doin this way more often then with core Mes. u Can do this twice in a row, only changing F1 to F2 , and still got ur Mirror blade and even ur Berserk on the other weapon set. U do even got the Phantasm on your current weapon set.

>

> In the pure comparison between self deception and illusionary reversion, I'd put self deception higher then illusionary reversion.

> And we all know how bad illusionary reversion is right ?

> Another thing which makes the combo less easy to dodge is the fact that u can sowrd ambush first, increasing it's range with Jaunt, still applying every trait.

 

Do what twice? You only get one surprise round, regardless of your action economy.

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > > @Ojimaru.8970 said:

> > > > I really don't agree with using the arguments of "because a Thief can do X, therefore Mirage must be able to do X." This Mirage is not a Thief and therefore doesn't need to be able to be able to _exactly_ mimic a Thief's capabilities. A Mirage may be "a Thief as seen through a Mesmer," but again that doesn't mean it should have the exact same mobility, deception, or damage options as a Thief, _because the Mirage is not a Thief_.

> > >

> > > You're right. Mirage is not a thief, just a worse version of one. What a wonderful thing to be the inferior unique snowflake. Nothing better than being uniquely bad in PvE.

> >

> > Lucky pve is 1/3 of the Game.

>

> As if people play 3/3 of a game format. By that brilliant logic it would be fine if PvE didn't exist at all, since you can play two formats you have zero interest in.

 

Im just saying that ppl shouldn't expect every Elite to be equally good in every Gamemode. People are sad if there main elite isn't made for there Main gamemode, and therefore they keep saying things like ; ur gamemodes are useless, only PvE matters. Elite are meant to be good in certain situations, and we have viable builds for every gamemode, for every class. Ppl literally say that teleports are useless, cause they dont need teleports in PvE. If u want to play a certain spec and it doesnt fit the meta, u should play another gamemode, or another spec.

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > > 100% mirrage will delete players in WvW and PvP roaming. It never was easier to pull out 3 illusions in the start of a fight like it is with mirrage. U dont need ur Phantasms for the opening burst shatter combo anymore and can use it afterwards. Deceptive evasion dodge- First clone , sword ambush , second clone , jaunt self deception third clone.

> > >

> > > Because DE -> point blank mirror blade -> shatter wasn't enough to delete people already? Illusion generation isn't an exceptional thing, it's a basic expected capability of almost all mesmer builds.

> >

> > Gotta go more indeep; u got the possibilty of doin this way more often then with core Mes. u Can do this twice in a row, only changing F1 to F2 , and still got ur Mirror blade and even ur Berserk on the other weapon set. U do even got the Phantasm on your current weapon set.

> >

> > In the pure comparison between self deception and illusionary reversion, I'd put self deception higher then illusionary reversion.

> > And we all know how bad illusionary reversion is right ?

> > Another thing which makes the combo less easy to dodge is the fact that u can sowrd ambush first, increasing it's range with Jaunt, still applying every trait.

>

> Do what twice? You only get one surprise round, regardless of your action economy.

 

Ok was pretty clear in the comment i posted but im gonna go through it again .

dodge, sword ambush , shatter

dodge, sowrd ambush , shatter

mirror blade , berserk and offhand phantasm still avaible.

I am not talking about a surprise thing, im talking about popping out illusions like it's christmas day. Popping out illusions better then Chrono does.

If i may remember u about ONE of the biggest issues ppl had with Mirrage ; "we no have clone generation , we can never shatter , never do clones , how clone i do ????"

Mirrage gets good clone generation ; we no need clone generation , we have clone generation.

 

[Esplen.3940]

> @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> Im just saying that ppl shouldn't expect every Elite to be equally good in every Gamemode. People are sad if there main elite isn't made for there Main gamemode, and therefore they keep saying things like ; ur gamemodes are useless, only PvE matters. Elite are meant to be good in certain situations, and we have viable builds for every gamemode, for every class. Ppl literally say that teleports are useless, cause they dont need teleports in PvE. If u want to play a certain spec and it doesnt fit the meta, u should play another gamemode, or another spec.

 

I haven't heard those complaints and I've been on this forum near religiously since it came up this month.

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > Im just saying that ppl shouldn't expect every Elite to be equally good in every Gamemode. People are sad if there main elite isn't made for there Main gamemode, and therefore they keep saying things like ; ur gamemodes are useless, only PvE matters. Elite are meant to be good in certain situations, and we have viable builds for every gamemode, for every class. Ppl literally say that teleports are useless, cause they dont need teleports in PvE. If u want to play a certain spec and it doesnt fit the meta, u should play another gamemode, or another spec.

>

> I haven't heard those complaints and I've been on this forum near religiously since it came up this month.

 

Dont even know what u want to tell me with this....

 

Ill give u an example

"Jaunt with 400 Range is really bad , doenst even gets u out of meele range" + "Loosing dode roll is really bad , we needed the 300 units to get out of meele range".

Those things come from one Side.

[Mikkel.8427]

> @FaboBabo.3581 said:

>It never was easier to pull out 3 illusions in the start of a fight like it is with mirrage. U dont need ur Phantasms for the opening burst shatter combo anymore and can use it afterwards. Deceptive evasion dodge- First clone , sword ambush , second clone , jaunt self deception third clone.

>

 

Deceptive Evasion only produces a clone if you're already in combat.... You're combo will not work as an 'Opening Burst'.

 

 

[Esplen.3940]

> @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > @Esplen.3940 said:

> > > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > Im just saying that ppl shouldn't expect every Elite to be equally good in every Gamemode. People are sad if there main elite isn't made for there Main gamemode, and therefore they keep saying things like ; ur gamemodes are useless, only PvE matters. Elite are meant to be good in certain situations, and we have viable builds for every gamemode, for every class. Ppl literally say that teleports are useless, cause they dont need teleports in PvE. If u want to play a certain spec and it doesnt fit the meta, u should play another gamemode, or another spec.

> >

> > I haven't heard those complaints and I've been on this forum near religiously since it came up this month.

>

> Dont even know what u want to tell me with this....

>

> Ill give u an example

> "Jaunt with 400 Range is really bad , doenst even gets u out of meele range" + "Loosing dode roll is really bad , we needed the 300 units to get out of meele range".

> Those things come from one Side.

 

Ok, but which of those complaints are:

* ur gamemodes are useless, only PvE matters

* teleports are useless

[Zenith.7301]

Speed of Sand should increase condition damage on targets with bleeding by 10%.

 

Nomad's Endurance should trigger from mirage cloak.

 

Riddle of Sand no longer has the shatter requirement. The confusion applies on every ambush.

 

There, Mirage is now significantly less terrible in PvE.

 

Reduce Signet of Humility's cooldown to 60 seconds in PvE only. Jaunt now also applies 6 stacks of torment and confusion for 8 seconds, in PvE only.

 

The deception utilities are unsalvageable in PvE, a pity since the only good mesmer utilities in PvE are signet of inspiration and chronomancer wells.

 

> @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > > > @Ojimaru.8970 said:

> > > > > I really don't agree with using the arguments of "because a Thief can do X, therefore Mirage must be able to do X." This Mirage is not a Thief and therefore doesn't need to be able to be able to _exactly_ mimic a Thief's capabilities. A Mirage may be "a Thief as seen through a Mesmer," but again that doesn't mean it should have the exact same mobility, deception, or damage options as a Thief, _because the Mirage is not a Thief_.

> > > >

> > > > You're right. Mirage is not a thief, just a worse version of one. What a wonderful thing to be the inferior unique snowflake. Nothing better than being uniquely bad in PvE.

> > >

> > > Lucky pve is 1/3 of the Game.

> >

> > As if people play 3/3 of a game format. By that brilliant logic it would be fine if PvE didn't exist at all, since you can play two formats you have zero interest in.

>

> Im just saying that ppl shouldn't expect every Elite to be equally good in every Gamemode. People are sad if there main elite isn't made for there Main gamemode, and therefore they keep saying things like ; ur gamemodes are useless, only PvE matters. Elite are meant to be good in certain situations, and we have viable builds for every gamemode, for every class. Ppl literally say that teleports are useless, cause they dont need teleports in PvE. If u want to play a certain spec and it doesnt fit the meta, u should play another gamemode, or another spec.

 

 

That's easy to say when the new toy that changes how you've been playing for the last 3 years fits perfectly with your preferred pvp format.

 

In fact, pvp players benefited just as much from chrono as pve players have. Why can't pve players now benefit from mirage just as much as PvP players can?

 

Why is it OK for a spec to be PvP only yet when a spec is garbage in PvE and only good in PvE, you people would be up in arms.

 

Mesmer has a single viable PvE spec, chronomancer boonbot. That's it. PvP players have condi mesmer, power shatter mesmer, interrupt mesmer. Build variety is a thing in PvP, yet PvE players get left out in the cold.