Lord Kreegan.8123 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 I won't buy them or keys from the trading post... period. Usually, I'll collect a bunch of them and then sell them on the TP. That's guaranteed gold. It used to be that the BLC had a reasonable chance of getting something good. I haven't seen anything good in so long that I don't bother opening them unless I happen to get a chest and a key as a drop or as the result of map completion. I definitely won't waste real money on crap. ANet needs to be more honest. Until they are, they won't get a nickel from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > Black Lion Chests are gambling, but so were baseball cards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The difference is, you can trade unwanted baseballs cards. You are stuck with most of BLC content and what's available for sale is rare or very rare. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure people haven't lost their house or families over Black Lion Chests, which provide only virtual, in game items that can't be taken out of game. I'm not sure how you can compare spending too much money to get a specific skin, or spending too much money to make more real world money. They're very different circumstances. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure we can find examples of people going huge debt because of microtransactions, especially lootboxes. There are people addicted to such things and BLCs are to blame as much as any other lootbox in any game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, worth mentioning, BL statuettes are huge step in good direction. Probably trying to be one step ahead of possible regulations of in-game gambling for kids. > > > > > > > > > > > > Pretty sure more people would have gone into debt over a bidding on ebay addiction though. This is not the wide spread problem some people are making it out to be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet. You don't give children menthols just because they are less unhealthy than normal cigarettes. Same with gambling. And if it wasn't a problem, it wouldn't have been acknowledged by WHO as mentioned above. > > > > > > > > We keep using the word children here, and I'm picturing 8 year olds That was the age I started buying baseball cards. Shrugs. The age of the average player if this game is probably in the 30s. There are very few kids by percentage playing this game. I wish people would stop making this about kids, because it's really not. > > > > > > Well, I wouldn't mind if a game providing gambling experience was tagged as 18+, but unfortunately gamind industry avoids gambling regulations. At least for now. > > > > > > I already explained why your baseball card argument doesn't work. > > > > And I don't agree with your explanation but look, it's clear we're simply never going to agree on this. This is obviously a hot-button issue for some people and for other people it's not. I'm one of those other people apparently > > What you don't agree with? The fact that you can't trade BLC trash but you can trade unwanted baseball cards? I don't think that distinction makes any difference as to whether or not someone is gambling. I can step into a street blindfolded and that would be a gamble. But I couldn't sell it to anyone else. Gambling has lots of definitions, including a legal one. But a gamble is simply a risk. When I buy a pack of baseball cards, I can trade them or sell them but I'm still paying cash for something and I still might get nothing valuable for that cash. I'd call that gambling. I don't really care what the legal definition is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > Black Lion Chests are gambling, but so were baseball cards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The difference is, you can trade unwanted baseballs cards. You are stuck with most of BLC content and what's available for sale is rare or very rare. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure people haven't lost their house or families over Black Lion Chests, which provide only virtual, in game items that can't be taken out of game. I'm not sure how you can compare spending too much money to get a specific skin, or spending too much money to make more real world money. They're very different circumstances. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure we can find examples of people going huge debt because of microtransactions, especially lootboxes. There are people addicted to such things and BLCs are to blame as much as any other lootbox in any game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, worth mentioning, BL statuettes are huge step in good direction. Probably trying to be one step ahead of possible regulations of in-game gambling for kids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pretty sure more people would have gone into debt over a bidding on ebay addiction though. This is not the wide spread problem some people are making it out to be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet. You don't give children menthols just because they are less unhealthy than normal cigarettes. Same with gambling. And if it wasn't a problem, it wouldn't have been acknowledged by WHO as mentioned above. > > > > > > > > > > We keep using the word children here, and I'm picturing 8 year olds That was the age I started buying baseball cards. Shrugs. The age of the average player if this game is probably in the 30s. There are very few kids by percentage playing this game. I wish people would stop making this about kids, because it's really not. > > > > > > > > Well, I wouldn't mind if a game providing gambling experience was tagged as 18+, but unfortunately gamind industry avoids gambling regulations. At least for now. > > > > > > > > I already explained why your baseball card argument doesn't work. > > > > > > And I don't agree with your explanation but look, it's clear we're simply never going to agree on this. This is obviously a hot-button issue for some people and for other people it's not. I'm one of those other people apparently > > > > What you don't agree with? The fact that you can't trade BLC trash but you can trade unwanted baseball cards? > > I don't think that distinction makes any difference as to whether or not someone is gambling. I can step into a street blindfolded and that would be a gamble. But I couldn't sell it to anyone else. Gambling has lots of definitions, including a legal one. But a gamble is simply a risk. When I buy a pack of baseball cards, I can trade them or sell them but I'm still paying cash for something and I still might get nothing valuable for that cash. I'd call that gambling. I don't really care what the legal definition is. No, that's not a distinction. But that's a reason why you can't compare baseball cards to BLCs. Also baseball cards have known value - you get x cards with known rarity (which in addition you can trade after to get even more value). The value of BLC is in no way to be estimated. However, now with BL statuettes they are most likely going to avoid any sanctions put on video game gambling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faaris.8013 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 So I'm not educated in law stuff, but we are in a game forum, so why not share my opinion ^^ I was looking up how German courts handle trading cards and how the law defines gambling. And I have to change my stance on Black Lion Chests when applying the law in my country. I also have to change my opinion that it's more like a carnival lottery or a raffle. In a Carnival lottery, the prizes are set in a way that it's finite. If the tickets that win the big plush teddy bear have been sold and all bears been handed out, people see that and cannot hope to win one anymore. Of course, it's possible that the operator just gets more and more teddy bears, but there will be times when there are none visible. BLC gambling is infinite, it's totally not like a carnival lottery or raffle. If you buy all tickets, you will win what you are looking for. You cannot buy all BLCs because their number is infinite. The statuettes changed the game, maybe they are an answer to the question. It's an easy definition really: > Ein Glücksspiel liegt gemäß § 3 Abs. 1 Satz 1 GlüStV vor, wenn im Rahmen eines Spiels für den Erwerb einer Gewinnchance ein Entgelt verlangt wird und die Entscheidung über den Gewinn ganz oder überwiegend vom Zufall abhängt. https://www.anwalt.de/rechtstipps/trading-card-games-und-tabletops-sind-turniere-vom-gluecksspielverbot-erfasst_025781.html That means it's gambling (or "game of chance" according to all available translations of the word "Glücksspiel") when: * you have to make a payment for the chance to win something * if you get a prize depends completely or mostly on chance There is more to it of course, but that's the short definition. Apparently, German courts consider Poker gambling, but not Skat. They believe that Skat involves more skill than chance (in tournaments with 30+ games) so it's not gambling. You might disagree because you believe Poker also involves more skill than chance, but that's the current stance of German law. Now, I wonder what exactly they mean with "Entgelt/Payment". I'm pretty sure nobody thought of gem stores and virtual currencies when that was written. It's possible that there's a legal difference between buying gems with gold or getting gems with an achievement chest and then buying BLC keys, and using your credit card to buy keys. In the first cases, you don't make a payment, so it's not gambling, in the latter case, you are making a payment, so it fits the definition of gambling. Also, there is probably a good reason for Anet to not add gems themselves to the chests as prize, because that would make it more like gambling. In reality though, gold equals gems and there are items worth thousands of gold coins which can be traded into gems, so at the end of currency exchanges, you do get gems as prize by paying with gems. It's complicated And the second part of the definition does not apply to BLCs. There is no "if", you always get a prize. Right now, I would say, publishers are safe with what they are doing in Germany. I also believe that the definition is outdated and needs to be reviewed. The Glücksspielstaatsvertrag (GlüStV) that regulates gambling in Germany has been reviewed and was planned to take effect from 2018 on, but failed to be ratified by all states in Germany. Law making processes are too slow to keep up with reality, we see the same thing with Uber, Airbnb or Bitcoin. These things are going on for years "self-regulated", and by the time regulations are made, these economies have probably changed so much that those regulations are useless again. Monetizing in online games is similar in my opinion. I cannot rely on definitions or court decisions or laws to decide if BLCs are gambling and needs to be regulated. My gut tells me it's wrong though and exploitation of gambling addicts exists in online games. I hope the regulators will get their shit together and address this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Mist.2973 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 I'm just going to leave this here for anyone who is questioning why loot boxes and casino gambling are being treated differently. Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > Black Lion Chests are gambling, but so were baseball cards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The difference is, you can trade unwanted baseballs cards. You are stuck with most of BLC content and what's available for sale is rare or very rare. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure people haven't lost their house or families over Black Lion Chests, which provide only virtual, in game items that can't be taken out of game. I'm not sure how you can compare spending too much money to get a specific skin, or spending too much money to make more real world money. They're very different circumstances. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure we can find examples of people going huge debt because of microtransactions, especially lootboxes. There are people addicted to such things and BLCs are to blame as much as any other lootbox in any game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, worth mentioning, BL statuettes are huge step in good direction. Probably trying to be one step ahead of possible regulations of in-game gambling for kids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pretty sure more people would have gone into debt over a bidding on ebay addiction though. This is not the wide spread problem some people are making it out to be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet. You don't give children menthols just because they are less unhealthy than normal cigarettes. Same with gambling. And if it wasn't a problem, it wouldn't have been acknowledged by WHO as mentioned above. > > > > > > > > > > > > We keep using the word children here, and I'm picturing 8 year olds That was the age I started buying baseball cards. Shrugs. The age of the average player if this game is probably in the 30s. There are very few kids by percentage playing this game. I wish people would stop making this about kids, because it's really not. > > > > > > > > > > Well, I wouldn't mind if a game providing gambling experience was tagged as 18+, but unfortunately gamind industry avoids gambling regulations. At least for now. > > > > > > > > > > I already explained why your baseball card argument doesn't work. > > > > > > > > And I don't agree with your explanation but look, it's clear we're simply never going to agree on this. This is obviously a hot-button issue for some people and for other people it's not. I'm one of those other people apparently > > > > > > What you don't agree with? The fact that you can't trade BLC trash but you can trade unwanted baseball cards? > > > > I don't think that distinction makes any difference as to whether or not someone is gambling. I can step into a street blindfolded and that would be a gamble. But I couldn't sell it to anyone else. Gambling has lots of definitions, including a legal one. But a gamble is simply a risk. When I buy a pack of baseball cards, I can trade them or sell them but I'm still paying cash for something and I still might get nothing valuable for that cash. I'd call that gambling. I don't really care what the legal definition is. > > No, that's not a distinction. But that's a reason why you can't compare baseball cards to BLCs. > > Also baseball cards have known value - you get x cards with known rarity (which in addition you can trade after to get even more value). > > The value of BLC is in no way to be estimated. However, now with BL statuettes they are most likely going to avoid any sanctions put on video game gambling. Knowing the value of something doesn't make it more or less addictive though, or more or less moral. Baseball card companies never ever published the odds of getting a good card to my knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > I'm just going to leave this here for anyone who is questioning why loot boxes and casino gambling are being treated differently. Enjoy The answer is "because regulations were made in different era when such practices weren't abused on dialy basis". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Mist.2973 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > I'm just going to leave this here for anyone who is questioning why loot boxes and casino gambling are being treated differently. Enjoy > > The answer is "because regulations were made in different era when such practices weren't abused on dialy basis". > > Did you even bother to watch the video I posted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svarty.8019 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 > @"Anthony.7260" said: > > YOU SHOULDN'T buy black lion chest to make gold or gamble. You shouls only buy chest if you can use the items inside the box for fractals wvw cosmetics or keeping. > No, you should think of opening black lion chests as donating towards the maintenance of your hobby-game. ANY gain made from the chest is purely coincidental and you're lucky to get anything at all. By thinking of it in these terms, you can justify everything about them being utter crap considering the cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"DarcShriek.5829" said: > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > They are gambling though by the common person's definition of the word. Most people consider it to be gambling if you don't have any way to guarantee that you'll get what you want when you buy something. > > > > Just not considered gambling by the courts based on current interpretation of the law. > > You have no figures to back up your statement. You have no idea what most people consider gambling gamble; verb 1. play games of chance for money; bet. 2. take risky action in the hope of a desired result. noun 1. an act of gambling; an enterprise undertaken or attempted with a risk of loss and a chance of profit or success. By verb definition 2 and the noun definition, we have a very good idea what anyone who understands what the word means would think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zet.9130 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 We could call them "Gifts" if the keys were a regular drop. If keys were to drop at a rate somewhere between Rares and Exotics perhaps you can call them gifts. As it is now they are loot boxes that we gamble on getting great to super items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarcShriek.5829 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > @"DarcShriek.5829" said: > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > > They are gambling though by the common person's definition of the word. Most people consider it to be gambling if you don't have any way to guarantee that you'll get what you want when you buy something. > > > > > > Just not considered gambling by the courts based on current interpretation of the law. > > > > You have no figures to back up your statement. You have no idea what most people consider gambling > > gamble; verb > 1. play games of chance for money; bet. > 2. take risky action in the hope of a desired result. > > noun > 1. an act of gambling; an enterprise undertaken or attempted with a risk of loss and a chance of profit or success. > > By verb definition 2 and the noun definition, we have a very good idea what anyone who understands what the word means would think. > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > @"DarcShriek.5829" said: > > > @"Seera.5916" said: > > > > > > They are gambling though by the common person's definition of the word. Most people consider it to be gambling if you don't have any way to guarantee that you'll get what you want when you buy something. > > > > > > Just not considered gambling by the courts based on current interpretation of the law. > > > > You have no figures to back up your statement. You have no idea what most people consider gambling > > gamble; verb > 1. play games of chance for money; bet. > 2. take risky action in the hope of a desired result. > > noun > 1. an act of gambling; an enterprise undertaken or attempted with a risk of loss and a chance of profit or success. > > By verb definition 2 and the noun definition, we have a very good idea what anyone who understands what the word means would think. In the US. The courts have stated that there is no risk in opening items like black lion chests. Therefore it’s not gambling in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonstarmac.4603 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 I like the BLCs, however I am not a fan of the collections they are adding as the first slot guaranteed items...or even the mat bags really. Stuff like the mini Jackal Pups and mini Raptors are a little bit crazy, especially since you need hundreds of those minis to get the full collection. The material bags are just bleh as well. We get plenty of these as it is, no need for more. What I wouldn't mind seeing, if they want to keep those, would be a bag with options. IE: Jackal Pup or X# of Statuettes or even something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"DarcShriek.5829" said: > > In the US. The courts have stated that there is no risk in opening items like black lion chests. Therefore it’s not gambling in the US. Ah, but we are not at this moment in time debating the legal definition. That point was ceded long ago. Rather, we are debating what people think -- not lawyers or judges, other people. If it helps to think of it this way, BLC's are not gambling, but they are a gamble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarcShriek.5829 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > @"DarcShriek.5829" said: > > > > In the US. The courts have stated that there is no risk in opening items like black lion chests. Therefore it’s not gambling in the US. > > Ah, but we are not at this moment in time debating the legal definition. That point was ceded long ago. Rather, we are debating what people think -- not lawyers or judges, other people. If it helps to think of it this way, BLC's are not gambling, but they are a gamble. No they aren’t a gamble. There is no risk. You would be more accurate saying a car is an object Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seera.5916 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"DarcShriek.5829" said: > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > @"DarcShriek.5829" said: > > > > > > In the US. The courts have stated that there is no risk in opening items like black lion chests. Therefore it’s not gambling in the US. > > > > Ah, but we are not at this moment in time debating the legal definition. That point was ceded long ago. Rather, we are debating what people think -- not lawyers or judges, other people. If it helps to think of it this way, BLC's are not gambling, but they are a gamble. > > No they aren’t a gamble. There is no risk. You would be more accurate saying a car is an object There is a risk that you don't get what you want out of it. It's not a gamble of do you get something or nothing. Which is why I don't advise people to buy keys unless they're just going to for the thrill of opening the chest. If you want something specific, you're better off waiting for free keys or saving up the money and buying it directly off the TP. For me, it's a gamble of do I get what I want or do get another BLTC Salvage Kit set? I've got so many of the BLTC Salvage kits that I'd rather get other items from the BLTC chests. Or a person with a permanent hair stylist risk getting another hair style kit when they open instead of something else that they can use or sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauried.5608 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 BLCs are more like buying a product where you dont really know whether the product is exactly what you want. eg you buy an expensive car and then discover the car isnt as fantastic as you thought it would be . BLCs always give you something and that applies to all players who open them. RL gambling mostly gives you nothing at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 > @"mauried.5608" said: > Most lotteries in RL reward most players with nothing at all. > 1 player gets a mega reward, and a small number get smaller rewards, but most get nothing at all. > There would be outrage though if you got nothing from a BL chest, so thats why you get junk. > Its just pure gambling, but unlike most forms of gambling, the odds of getting something good are not known. > Where i live, there's raffles with guaranteed rewards, of course the minimum thing will cost a tenth of the cost of the raffle, but you always get something. It's still a lottery, no one will ever think any different because that's what it is, it's a game of chance. Just like Black Lion Chests. And matey you can squirm, you can protest, but if states and countries start legislating loot crates, you can bet your life that Black Lion chests will be contemplated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarcShriek.5829 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 > @"Seera.5916" said: > > @"DarcShriek.5829" said: > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > > @"DarcShriek.5829" said: > > > > > > > > In the US. The courts have stated that there is no risk in opening items like black lion chests. Therefore it’s not gambling in the US. > > > > > > Ah, but we are not at this moment in time debating the legal definition. That point was ceded long ago. Rather, we are debating what people think -- not lawyers or judges, other people. If it helps to think of it this way, BLC's are not gambling, but they are a gamble. > > > > No they aren’t a gamble. There is no risk. You would be more accurate saying a car is an object > > There is a risk that you don't get what you want out of it. It's not a gamble of do you get something or nothing. Which is why I don't advise people to buy keys unless they're just going to for the thrill of opening the chest. If you want something specific, you're better off waiting for free keys or saving up the money and buying it directly off the TP. > > For me, it's a gamble of do I get what I want or do get another BLTC Salvage Kit set? I've got so many of the BLTC Salvage kits that I'd rather get other items from the BLTC chests. > > Or a person with a permanent hair stylist risk getting another hair style kit when they open instead of something else that they can use or sell. It's only a gamble if you can sell your gems for money. You can't. Gems have no value once you buy them. It's not gambling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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