DeceiverX.8361 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Either the target is not wearing armor or there's something wrong with the way malice with M7 works with DJ as I mentioned above, suggesting each stack of malice adds a multiplicative damage per stack instead of additive for the total modifier. Reaper armor in full ascended assuming a full marauder ascended build is 1967. With MUDse's linked build, assuming the following: 3053 power + 360 with signet (540-180 from passive) = 3413 power Ferocity bonus damage assuming NQ: 256% DJ Coef = 1.65 base Into GW2 damage calculation formula -> Damage = Skill Coefficient * Power * Weapon damage * Ferocity modifier * additional damage modifiers / Opponent's armor = 1.65 * 3413 * (1035+1265)/2 * 2.56 * 1.05 * 1.07 * 1.10 * 1.1 * 1.21 * 2.05 / 1967 = ~~25,837.98~~ EDIT (Missing Scholar Runes): 28,421 It's one or the other. I'll run some tests, but from my experience the stacking doesn't work multiplicatively outside M7 as at five stacks I've maxed out with near-identical stats at just over 20k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arenta.2953 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > Either the target is not wearing armor or there's something wrong with the way malice with M7 works with DJ as I mentioned above, suggesting each stack of malice adds a multiplicative damage per stack instead of additive for the total modifier. > > Reaper armor in full ascended assuming a full marauder ascended build is 1967. > > With MUDse's linked build, assuming the following: > 3053 power + 360 with signet (540-180 from passive) = 3413 power > Ferocity bonus damage assuming NQ: 256% > DJ Coef = 1.65 base > > Into GW2 damage calculation formula -> Damage = Skill Coefficient * Power * Weapon damage * Ferocity modifier * additional damage modifiers / Opponent's armor > = 1.65 * 3413 * (1035+1265)/2 * 2.56 * 1.05 * 1.07 * 1.10 * 1.21 * 2.05 / 1967 > = 25,837.98 > > It's one or the other. I'll run some tests, but from my experience the stacking doesn't work multiplicatively outside M7 as at five stacks I've maxed out with near-identical stats at just over 20k. > > you forgot might stacks. but yeah, even with that i don't see how you get above 33k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Running almost exactly the same build (some valk pieces accounting for about a 3-5% total damage loss from the conversion) with about 60 less power from the ascended infusions since I don't have them on my Deadeye thief, which matches my math almost exactly:  Worth noting, I'm even over-compensating for the damage losses in gear by running Trickery; you can see the Lead Attacks symbol in the screenshot for an extra 9% modifier (time of damage it was 15%), which when everything is said and done is approximately a 21% additional boost. I even went as far as ensuring I got the Twin Fangs bonus damage from behind, too. AKA: 23k. The mob has a tiny bit more armor, and since my (previously-removed screenshot) non-signet hit on the rifle with a 9% stack on LA was 24k, probably a low rifle damage zone hit as well. M7 etc. Ain't bugged, and for onlookers, Perfectionist gives equal might stacks which I just happened to miss when taking the screenshot as I was a bit delayed to do so. Sorry dude, that reaper isn't wearing armor and trolled the hell out of you. Can we now finally put it to rest how over-stated the DE's DJ damage is? CnD backstab does more damage in less than 10% of the time, and that entire combo is outdone by... a Vault and one AA from the Daredevil on staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razor.6392 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Recently stumbled upon a binding shadow using deadeye in spvp. Even with 0 malice stacks, dude would DJ me for 12-13k everytime. Kinda messed up tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"Razor.6392" said: > Recently stumbled upon a binding shadow using deadeye in spvp. Even with 0 malice stacks, dude would DJ me for 12-13k everytime. > > Kinda messed up tbh. And that's the thing: Thief's damage has always come from stacking tons of damage modifiers in order to get the crazy hits, which makes their lower coefficients hit reasonably hard. Them waiting a few seconds to build up one or two stacks of malice while playing a full glass build (into another full glass build) will be enough to get the damage there. Of course, this means surrendering all defenses whatsoever including trait lines and utilities to pull it off quickly, but it's certainly doable. To put things in perspective, Blurred Frenzy has the same damage coefficient as backstab. Running SA, you simply can't physically deal that much damage because you're missing out on possibly adding another ~50% extra once you multiply everything out despite needing the target to be below half hp as it is, and even then, 40k is impossible on a target with ascended armor unless massive vuln is involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwiceDead.1963 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"TwiceDead.1963" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"TwiceDead.1963" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"TwiceDead.1963" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" > > > > > > > > > > > > You can't flip anything from stealth, dude. If you try to take an objective while your opponents are going for it, you are dead and buried. > > > > > > Surprise surprise, WvW ain't the place for even fights. > > > > > that is correct while stealthed the lord wont drop and the circle wont tick. > > > > > but if they leave me alone in there i will flip it, if they dont leave me alone suprise they give me attention. > > > > > > > > The more likely outcome is the opponents will cap it, the mobs will re-spawn and they'll move on with their lives, leaving you waiting for 5 minutes to re-cap a camp. > > > > Ooooh how the world has changed, I remember when thieves flipped camps and got away with it... OH WAIT. > > > > > > firstly i am not talkin about camps lol. > > > yes i walk in with enemy zerg, they flip it and i remain inside and flip it after 5 min that is correct. so they will keep it for 1-2 ticks. > > > > Sure you will... Sure you will. > > run out of logic so you question my abilities? Logic? That's what you call your masterplan of sneaking into castles and keeps with a zerg and capping it after they've gone? And you think this is unique to your Stealth-Deadeye build? Do you not even know why Mesmers and other Thieves often fail when they attempt to do this on their own? Stealth Disruptor Traps. If any ONE person in an entire zerg varying between 20 to 50 people thinks to drop one such device, and they often do just as a general precaution against Mesmers after capping keeps by the way... You are done. The moment you lose your stealth, every archer on the wall will start firing in your general direction, Line of Sight or Not, which will pin-point exactly where you are, which results in the players knowing, and then the hunt is on, you'll either die or be forced to jump the wall. Ofcourse if you're lucky and the planets are aligned, you could pull it off, but then again, so could any Thief or Mesmer for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Erm, since the update to keeps, all stealthed targets within the first 90s of one flipping are tracked in stealth on the minimap, too. As a recent TIL, it even updates in real-time unlike the Marked effect from patrols which are based on last-seen position. There are some cheeky ways to get around it (mostly), but it's damned hard to do and completely exclusive to the mesmer. That's the reason why people stopping mesmer-porting SMC/keeps etc., and towers just generally aren't worth doing it for save maybe a few major ones in EBG which have decent hiding spots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonewolf Kai.3682 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > Recently stumbled upon a binding shadow using deadeye in spvp. Even with 0 malice stacks, dude would DJ me for 12-13k everytime. > > > > Kinda messed up tbh. > > And that's the thing: Thief's damage has always come from stacking tons of damage modifiers in order to get the crazy hits, which makes their lower coefficients hit reasonably hard. Them waiting a few seconds to build up one or two stacks of malice while playing a full glass build (into another full glass build) will be enough to get the damage there. Of course, this means surrendering all defenses whatsoever including trait lines and utilities to pull it off quickly, but it's certainly doable. > > To put things in perspective, Blurred Frenzy has the same damage coefficient as backstab. Running SA, you simply can't physically deal that much damage because you're missing out on possibly adding another ~50% extra once you multiply everything out despite needing the target to be below half hp as it is, and even then, 40k is impossible on a target with ascended armor unless massive vuln is involved. You know, now that you said that, I’ve bet the very rare times I’ve hit super high damage was due to another friendly stacking on some vulnerability. I didn’t even think about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 -Redacted- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"TwiceDead.1963" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"TwiceDead.1963" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"TwiceDead.1963" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"TwiceDead.1963" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can't flip anything from stealth, dude. If you try to take an objective while your opponents are going for it, you are dead and buried. > > > > > > > Surprise surprise, WvW ain't the place for even fights. > > > > > > that is correct while stealthed the lord wont drop and the circle wont tick. > > > > > > but if they leave me alone in there i will flip it, if they dont leave me alone suprise they give me attention. > > > > > > > > > > The more likely outcome is the opponents will cap it, the mobs will re-spawn and they'll move on with their lives, leaving you waiting for 5 minutes to re-cap a camp. > > > > > Ooooh how the world has changed, I remember when thieves flipped camps and got away with it... OH WAIT. > > > > > > > > firstly i am not talkin about camps lol. > > > > yes i walk in with enemy zerg, they flip it and i remain inside and flip it after 5 min that is correct. so they will keep it for 1-2 ticks. > > > > > > Sure you will... Sure you will. > > > > run out of logic so you question my abilities? > > Logic? That's what you call your masterplan of sneaking into castles and keeps with a zerg and capping it after they've gone? And you think this is unique to your Stealth-Deadeye build? Do you not even know why Mesmers and other Thieves often fail when they attempt to do this on their own? > > Stealth Disruptor Traps. If any ONE person in an entire zerg varying between 20 to 50 people thinks to drop one such device, and they often do just as a general precaution against Mesmers after capping keeps by the way... You are done. > > The moment you lose your stealth, every archer on the wall will start firing in your general direction, Line of Sight or Not, which will pin-point exactly where you are, which results in the players knowing, and then the hunt is on, you'll either die or be forced to jump the wall. > > Ofcourse if you're lucky and the planets are aligned, you could pull it off, but then again, so could any Thief or Mesmer for that matter. i know about those traps, as said above those are the reason i started playin deadeye. cause with deadeye i survive triggering them as i can remove the effect. > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > Erm, since the update to keeps, all stealthed targets within the first 90s of one flipping are tracked in stealth on the minimap, too. As a recent TIL, it even updates in real-time unlike the Marked effect from patrols which are based on last-seen position. > > There are some cheeky ways to get around it (mostly), but it's damned hard to do and completely exclusive to the mesmer. > > That's the reason why people stopping mesmer-porting SMC/keeps etc., and towers just generally aren't worth doing it for save maybe a few major ones in EBG which have decent hiding spots. you are marked within first 5 min, since when do they update in real time? they update sometimes yes but not in real time, i keep movin around while marked and by the movement of my opponents i am certain they dont see a moving dot. it could be that it tracks in real time if you are already stealthed on flip, as new spawned guards also will see you till you leave stealth once and restealth, thats why i go visible shortly before it is flipped. also no marking in SMC. about that damagecalculation, i know that you missed 13 stacks might and 250 from bloodlust and in screen i had minor borderlands bloodlust => 670 power. but even with 670 power more on your calculation i would end up on 30,9k. i know that i often hit above 30k. are they all half naked? i dont know what is missing in your calculation, but if that is correct then alot of opponents in WvW miss some armor parts.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 The screenshot has 25 stacks of bloodlus, minor BL bloodlust, and the might is given free as part of the Perfectionist trait upon reaching maximum Malice with the build you posted, which was utilized. And again, this is with a 21% bonus to damage because I ran TR instead of SA to prove the point. Odds are, it's coming from vuln applied by other sources. It's still a very far cry from the 59k damage required to OHKO a marauder reaper through shroud, which was the initial claim. At the moment, we haven't even taken out all of the shroud LF due to its innate 50% reduction from power hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > The screenshot has 25 stacks of bloodlus, minor BL bloodlust, and the might is given free as part of the Perfectionist trait upon reaching maximum Malice with the build you posted, which was utilized. And again, this is with a 21% bonus to damage because I ran TR instead of SA to prove the point. > > Odds are, it's coming from vuln applied by other sources. > > It's still a very far cry from the 59k damage required to OHKO a marauder reaper through shroud, which was the initial claim. At the moment, we haven't even taken out all of the shroud LF due to its innate 50% reduction from power hits. i record all the time while roaming but i delete them at the end of each week for disk space, i did upload a very boring to watch video last week for an opponent who said i was cheating cause of my damage and the fact that i was able to remove revealed, figuring that neither he nor i am a native english speaker it was easier to upload a video of it. anyway i watched it again to see if i happend to shoot on a reaper in there and in that video i hit a reaper in shroud with DJ considering the damage i do to him with other attacks i think you are right with 50% dmg reduction in shroud. with shroud and protection he had it was sadly only 12-13k, while without build changes (only switched stack weapon to normal one) at the beginning i hit a ranger with over 38k ( that would be nearly impossible i guess, given that he has medium armor and 0 vuln during the shot ?) and a few hits above 30k while inside objective aura i dont think they were all on 0 thoughness tho. if you want to compare.. here the video i sent to the french guy, i was just trying to get 'quick' tower daily, were not too many opponents so wasnt all that efficient what i did there.. at ~1:50 the ranger and then still same build at 25:30 the reaper appears i do think he is on marauder. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFXjpWnXlTY&feature=youtu.be so to conclude you are right that i cannot oneshot a reaper who is in his shroud cause of the 50% reduction , but i still think something is missing in your calculation and i still can oneshot most builds including a reaper who is not in shroud, i even oneshotted a few commanders during their lead on their firebrands while they had no protection up. one of those is actually in my guild and i am certain he is a) not glassy statwise but nearly full minstrel and b) his armor was not broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 I did miss the scholar rune bonus which brings it to a 28ksuggested maximum on the reaper after looking again, but even still, something does not even come close to adding up with what the numbers should be at that point based on your footage. Everything is consistent with reported numbers and the values I was getting in-game on my end, though. Might require further testing because otherwise the math is precise and it looks like there's some kind of weirdness happening. 50% shroud reduction is definitely a fact; it's even in the description on the wiki. That said, 28k, despite only being a few thousand health difference, does start getting fairly oppressive for most other professions to deal with. Particularly coming from SA. I'm just not at all sure how you're getting those numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > I did miss the scholar rune bonus which brings it to a 28ksuggested maximum on the reaper after looking again, but even still, something does not even come close to adding up with what the numbers should be at that point based on your footage. Everything is consistent with reported numbers and the values I was getting in-game on my end, though. Might require further testing because otherwise the math is precise and it looks like there's some kind of weirdness happening. > > 50% shroud reduction is definitely a fact; it's even in the description on the wiki. > > That said, 28k, despite only being a few thousand health difference, does start getting fairly oppressive for most other professions to deal with. Particularly coming from SA. I'm just not at all sure how you're getting those numbers. i have a little thing diffrent ingame then on the planer, i have +5 power WvW infusions not agony ones, but they are not in the planer. the bonus damage to guards and lords of them shouldnt affect this tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 I was running the same since they're easier to get for a test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 i have just killed the skale from your test 15 times and then i got a dc. shots were between 27102 and 31876 so if he has only slightly more thoughness then a marauder reaper, then i would never hit 35k+ hits but they do happen even without vuln. actually while being up there in the north of ebg for the skale i came across a zerg and hit a reaper for 39756, considering i had over 4k difference between lowest and highest hits on skale, then considering this as a rather low hit the 42k hit could be on the same target. but anyway how much exactly it hits is not really important for the topic i guess as it is about DJ being able to hit very high and without protection few people survive after a DJ. it is not really a question about balance as yes in theory the DJ itself is easily avoided but it surely is not a healthy game design. the skill is also only actually needed in outnumbered situations, if i am highly outnumbered i will just mark and camp stealth etc. in 1 vs 2 i often mark one, while preassuring the second to hopefully get him down by the time malice is up so i can oneshot his mate while rezzing. but for rather even fights you dont need that skill at all, it is tho more convenient to oneshot instead of triggering 10 auto procs by attacking more often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arenta.2953 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > i have just killed the skale from your test 15 times and then i got a dc. shots were between 27102 and 31876 so if he has only slightly more thoughness then a marauder reaper, then i would never hit 35k+ hits but they do happen even without vuln. actually while being up there in the north of ebg for the skale i came across a zerg and hit a reaper for 39756, considering i had over 4k difference between lowest and highest hits on skale, then considering this as a rather low hit the 42k hit could be on the same target. > but anyway how much exactly it hits is not really important for the topic i guess as it is about DJ being able to hit very high and without protection few people survive after a DJ. it is not really a question about balance as yes in theory the DJ itself is easily avoided but it surely is not a healthy game design. the skill is also only actually needed in outnumbered situations, if i am highly outnumbered i will just mark and camp stealth etc. in 1 vs 2 i often mark one, while preassuring the second to hopefully get him down by the time malice is up so i can oneshot his mate while rezzing. but for rather even fights you dont need that skill at all, it is tho more convenient to oneshot instead of triggering 10 auto procs by attacking more often. ok, and thats not a DJ specific thing as i showed earlier, Killshot from warrior rifle can do the same (without needing deadeye's mark to be max malice, and without the target painter light to give away the attack. killshot is instant) and theres more, specially on warrior, check out its dagger 4. if your target sits there to let mark get to max. then thats their own fault. its like sitting in the middle of an elementalist fire storm. you can't cure stupidity. specially when you have a 15-20 secound warning, and then a flashy laser light to say exactly when to dodge. so if you outnumbered and they sit there. thats not an argument. and again, the only ones u can 1 shot are those with broken armor, under leveled armor, glass cannons with no toughness. or extremely low vit builds. the same argument could be used on Scourge and mesmer. who cna condi spam down anyone. and unlike thief, condi dmg can't be negated by armor. in fact it doesn't care about armor at all. nothing stops condi dmg but the resistance buff. and that buff is pretty rare and short lasting -------------- in Summary: Death's Judgement is fine. if you want to remove every high alpha hit in the game, Death's Judgement is 5th in line(and even then, the other competition don't need a 15-20 secound start up time and a laser "dodge now" telegraph) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > i have just killed the skale from your test 15 times and then i got a dc. shots were between 27102 and 31876 so if he has only slightly more thoughness then a marauder reaper, then i would never hit 35k+ hits but they do happen even without vuln. actually while being up there in the north of ebg for the skale i came across a zerg and hit a reaper for 39756, considering i had over 4k difference between lowest and highest hits on skale, then considering this as a rather low hit the 42k hit could be on the same target. > but anyway how much exactly it hits is not really important for the topic i guess as it is about DJ being able to hit very high and without protection few people survive after a DJ. it is not really a question about balance as yes in theory the DJ itself is easily avoided but it surely is not a healthy game design. the skill is also only actually needed in outnumbered situations, if i am highly outnumbered i will just mark and camp stealth etc. in 1 vs 2 i often mark one, while preassuring the second to hopefully get him down by the time malice is up so i can oneshot his mate while rezzing. but for rather even fights you dont need that skill at all, it is tho more convenient to oneshot instead of triggering 10 auto procs by attacking more often. That's still really weird because the numbers don't fully add up. I've been trying to figure out what the missing link is all day and can't. I genuinely don't know why you're hitting so much harder than expected. As far as it not being healthy game design... Absolutely. I've advocated against the notion of a sniper spec with stealth for this exact reason for a very long time. Most of the thieves in the higher skill echelons also have. It's not fun to play against at the end of the day and feels very cheesy. Honestly, if they just outright removed DJ and reduced the initiative cost on Death's Retreat while making it usable in Kneel and tweaked some coefficients around while bumping up malice generation speed, the spec would be a lot healthier and more fun to play against. Thing here is that the core of the issue comes from SA + D/P more than DE. When nukes and permanent stealth are combined, there's a problem. The setup time makes it artificially weak because it can be mitigated so easily, yet it requires doing the most anti-fun thing to negate it: Not playing against it. It also severely limits the situations DE can be played in due to the timer on Malice; you can't use it in a zerg because people will see the mark and run away into the blob. It's the reason I even made my original proposal for the DE based on Revealed; the gameplay is so much healthier for opponents and opens up the thief to do more cool things mechanically without being anti-fun to play against. Permastealth is fine if you can't nuke from it as it's then just a tool for the thief to try and take shelter from incoming damage temporarily like any other immunity effect, but it's otherwise impossible to balance and make a fun mechanic out of when they can poof for 30s and OHKO you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 > @"arenta.2953" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > i have just killed the skale from your test 15 times and then i got a dc. shots were between 27102 and 31876 so if he has only slightly more thoughness then a marauder reaper, then i would never hit 35k+ hits but they do happen even without vuln. actually while being up there in the north of ebg for the skale i came across a zerg and hit a reaper for 39756, considering i had over 4k difference between lowest and highest hits on skale, then considering this as a rather low hit the 42k hit could be on the same target. > > but anyway how much exactly it hits is not really important for the topic i guess as it is about DJ being able to hit very high and without protection few people survive after a DJ. it is not really a question about balance as yes in theory the DJ itself is easily avoided but it surely is not a healthy game design. the skill is also only actually needed in outnumbered situations, if i am highly outnumbered i will just mark and camp stealth etc. in 1 vs 2 i often mark one, while preassuring the second to hopefully get him down by the time malice is up so i can oneshot his mate while rezzing. but for rather even fights you dont need that skill at all, it is tho more convenient to oneshot instead of triggering 10 auto procs by attacking more often. > > ok, and thats not a DJ specific thing > > as i showed earlier, Killshot from warrior rifle can do the same (without needing deadeye's mark to be max malice, and without the target painter light to give away the attack. killshot is instant) > at least in my planer your link didnt show me higher killshot values, unless you didnt calculate in the malice bonus. aside from that i think it is harder to land a killshot then a DJ, tho might be cause i am too inexperienced with warrior. > if your target sits there to let mark get to max. then thats their own fault. its like sitting in the middle of an elementalist fire storm. you can't cure stupidity. > specially when you have a 15-20 secound warning, and then a flashy laser light to say exactly when to dodge. as said before: it true can be avoided , has enough tells so it is balancewise fine. still not healthy design > so if you outnumbered and they sit there. thats not an argument. that was not an argument i said i only need the skill in a outnumbered situation, while normaly one should never stand a chance outnumbered on even skill level, therefor i dont really need this skill, could be replaced with something different that is more use to a in and out of stealth gameplay or for repositoning. > and again, the only ones u can 1 shot are those with broken armor, under leveled armor, glass cannons with no toughness. or extremely low vit builds. that is simply not correct, there are very few builds that can survive a glassy DJ without protection. > the same argument could be used on Scourge and mesmer. who cna condi spam down anyone. and unlike thief, condi dmg can't be negated by armor. in fact it doesn't care about armor at all. nothing stops condi dmg but the resistance buff. and that buff is pretty rare and short lasting condi can be cleansed so it will allways be weaker then power damage imo, that why i prefer playing power. > in Summary: Death's Judgement is fine. if you want to remove every high alpha hit in the game, Death's Judgement is 5th in line(and even then, the other competition don't need a 15-20 secound start up time and a laser "dodge now" telegraph) as said above balancewise it is fine, but it is not really fun to play against. > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > i have just killed the skale from your test 15 times and then i got a dc. shots were between 27102 and 31876 so if he has only slightly more thoughness then a marauder reaper, then i would never hit 35k+ hits but they do happen even without vuln. actually while being up there in the north of ebg for the skale i came across a zerg and hit a reaper for 39756, considering i had over 4k difference between lowest and highest hits on skale, then considering this as a rather low hit the 42k hit could be on the same target. > > but anyway how much exactly it hits is not really important for the topic i guess as it is about DJ being able to hit very high and without protection few people survive after a DJ. it is not really a question about balance as yes in theory the DJ itself is easily avoided but it surely is not a healthy game design. the skill is also only actually needed in outnumbered situations, if i am highly outnumbered i will just mark and camp stealth etc. in 1 vs 2 i often mark one, while preassuring the second to hopefully get him down by the time malice is up so i can oneshot his mate while rezzing. but for rather even fights you dont need that skill at all, it is tho more convenient to oneshot instead of triggering 10 auto procs by attacking more often. > > That's still really weird because the numbers don't fully add up. I've been trying to figure out what the missing link is all day and can't. I genuinely don't know why you're hitting so much harder than expected. > > As far as it not being healthy game design... Absolutely. I've advocated against the notion of a sniper spec with stealth for this exact reason for a very long time. Most of the thieves in the higher skill echelons also have. It's not fun to play against at the end of the day and feels very cheesy. Honestly, if they just outright removed DJ and reduced the initiative cost on Death's Retreat while making it usable in Kneel and tweaked some coefficients around while bumping up malice generation speed, the spec would be a lot healthier and more fun to play against. > > Thing here is that the core of the issue comes from SA + D/P more than DE. When nukes and permanent stealth are combined, there's a problem. The setup time makes it artificially weak because it can be mitigated so easily, yet it requires doing the most anti-fun thing to negate it: Not playing against it. It also severely limits the situations DE can be played in due to the timer on Malice; you can't use it in a zerg because people will see the mark and run away into the blob. It's the reason I even made my original proposal for the DE based on Revealed; the gameplay is so much healthier for opponents and opens up the thief to do more cool things mechanically without being anti-fun to play against. Permastealth is fine if you can't nuke from it as it's then just a tool for the thief to try and take shelter from incoming damage temporarily like any other immunity effect, but it's otherwise impossible to balance and make a fun mechanic out of when they can poof for 30s and OHKO you. i played with SA and d/p also before PoF, but not as glassy. still rather soft targets would die pretty instant to backstab followed by a few quickness AA. personally i see backstab out of perma stealth a greater issue then DJ, with that very same DE build i hit glas mesmer regularly for ~20k backstab and sometimes goes up to about 25k that is a onehit only avoidable by prediction, works also for most thieves and FA eles, even oneshot a DH with over 18k backstab last week... thief was allways a bursty class, to remove nukes from stealth you would need to strip thief of bursts. but then thief would need to be able to apply constantly damage, wich is not possible while avoiding enemy damage as we dont have invuln skills. this would require alot of changes to the class, that i dont see coming. or you would need to strip the thief of so much stealth, then we would be pushed to an evasive playstyle. i personally think stealthstacking is healthier then evadespamming tho, it has at least counterplay. i am curious what changes we will get in 2 days, those might indicate how anet currently does look at the thief and especially deadeye. because i havent heard anything good on the PvE, sPvP parts about deadeye and in WvW, well i did hear either it is trash or that it is OP, not that it is in a good spot right now, so overall more negative feedback then positive, therefor i wouldnt be suprised if DE specially with rifle actually gets some buffs. 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arenta.2953 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"arenta.2953" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > i have just killed the skale from your test 15 times and then i got a dc. shots were between 27102 and 31876 so if he has only slightly more thoughness then a marauder reaper, then i would never hit 35k+ hits but they do happen even without vuln. actually while being up there in the north of ebg for the skale i came across a zerg and hit a reaper for 39756, considering i had over 4k difference between lowest and highest hits on skale, then considering this as a rather low hit the 42k hit could be on the same target. > > > but anyway how much exactly it hits is not really important for the topic i guess as it is about DJ being able to hit very high and without protection few people survive after a DJ. it is not really a question about balance as yes in theory the DJ itself is easily avoided but it surely is not a healthy game design. the skill is also only actually needed in outnumbered situations, if i am highly outnumbered i will just mark and camp stealth etc. in 1 vs 2 i often mark one, while preassuring the second to hopefully get him down by the time malice is up so i can oneshot his mate while rezzing. but for rather even fights you dont need that skill at all, it is tho more convenient to oneshot instead of triggering 10 auto procs by attacking more often. > > > > ok, and thats not a DJ specific thing > > > > as i showed earlier, Killshot from warrior rifle can do the same (without needing deadeye's mark to be max malice, and without the target painter light to give away the attack. killshot is instant) > > > at least in my planer your link didnt show me higher killshot values, unless you didnt calculate in the malice bonus. aside from that i think it is harder to land a killshot then a DJ, tho might be cause i am too inexperienced with warrior. > > if your target sits there to let mark get to max. then thats their own fault. its like sitting in the middle of an elementalist fire storm. you can't cure stupidity. > > specially when you have a 15-20 secound warning, and then a flashy laser light to say exactly when to dodge. > as said before: it true can be avoided , has enough tells so it is balancewise fine. still not healthy design > > so if you outnumbered and they sit there. thats not an argument. > that was not an argument i said i only need the skill in a outnumbered situation, while normaly one should never stand a chance outnumbered on even skill level, therefor i dont really need this skill, could be replaced with something different that is more use to a in and out of stealth gameplay or for repositoning. > > and again, the only ones u can 1 shot are those with broken armor, under leveled armor, glass cannons with no toughness. or extremely low vit builds. > that is simply not correct, there are very few builds that can survive a glassy DJ without protection. > > the same argument could be used on Scourge and mesmer. who cna condi spam down anyone. and unlike thief, condi dmg can't be negated by armor. in fact it doesn't care about armor at all. nothing stops condi dmg but the resistance buff. and that buff is pretty rare and short lasting > > condi can be cleansed so it will allways be weaker then power damage imo, that why i prefer playing power. > > > in Summary: Death's Judgement is fine. if you want to remove every high alpha hit in the game, Death's Judgement is 5th in line(and even then, the other competition don't need a 15-20 secound start up time and a laser "dodge now" telegraph) > > as said above balancewise it is fine, but it is not really fun to play against. > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > i have just killed the skale from your test 15 times and then i got a dc. shots were between 27102 and 31876 so if he has only slightly more thoughness then a marauder reaper, then i would never hit 35k+ hits but they do happen even without vuln. actually while being up there in the north of ebg for the skale i came across a zerg and hit a reaper for 39756, considering i had over 4k difference between lowest and highest hits on skale, then considering this as a rather low hit the 42k hit could be on the same target. > > > but anyway how much exactly it hits is not really important for the topic i guess as it is about DJ being able to hit very high and without protection few people survive after a DJ. it is not really a question about balance as yes in theory the DJ itself is easily avoided but it surely is not a healthy game design. the skill is also only actually needed in outnumbered situations, if i am highly outnumbered i will just mark and camp stealth etc. in 1 vs 2 i often mark one, while preassuring the second to hopefully get him down by the time malice is up so i can oneshot his mate while rezzing. but for rather even fights you dont need that skill at all, it is tho more convenient to oneshot instead of triggering 10 auto procs by attacking more often. > > > > That's still really weird because the numbers don't fully add up. I've been trying to figure out what the missing link is all day and can't. I genuinely don't know why you're hitting so much harder than expected. > > > > As far as it not being healthy game design... Absolutely. I've advocated against the notion of a sniper spec with stealth for this exact reason for a very long time. Most of the thieves in the higher skill echelons also have. It's not fun to play against at the end of the day and feels very cheesy. Honestly, if they just outright removed DJ and reduced the initiative cost on Death's Retreat while making it usable in Kneel and tweaked some coefficients around while bumping up malice generation speed, the spec would be a lot healthier and more fun to play against. > > > > Thing here is that the core of the issue comes from SA + D/P more than DE. When nukes and permanent stealth are combined, there's a problem. The setup time makes it artificially weak because it can be mitigated so easily, yet it requires doing the most anti-fun thing to negate it: Not playing against it. It also severely limits the situations DE can be played in due to the timer on Malice; you can't use it in a zerg because people will see the mark and run away into the blob. It's the reason I even made my original proposal for the DE based on Revealed; the gameplay is so much healthier for opponents and opens up the thief to do more cool things mechanically without being anti-fun to play against. Permastealth is fine if you can't nuke from it as it's then just a tool for the thief to try and take shelter from incoming damage temporarily like any other immunity effect, but it's otherwise impossible to balance and make a fun mechanic out of when they can poof for 30s and OHKO you. > > i played with SA and d/p also before PoF, but not as glassy. still rather soft targets would die pretty instant to backstab followed by a few quickness AA. > personally i see backstab out of perma stealth a greater issue then DJ, with that very same DE build i hit glas mesmer regularly for ~20k backstab and sometimes goes up to about 25k that is a onehit only avoidable by prediction, works also for most thieves and FA eles, even oneshot a DH with over 18k backstab last week... > thief was allways a bursty class, to remove nukes from stealth you would need to strip thief of bursts. but then thief would need to be able to apply constantly damage, wich is not possible while avoiding enemy damage as we dont have invuln skills. this would require alot of changes to the class, that i dont see coming. or you would need to strip the thief of so much stealth, then we would be pushed to an evasive playstyle. i personally think stealthstacking is healthier then evadespamming tho, it has at least counterplay. > > i am curious what changes we will get in 2 days, those might indicate how anet currently does look at the thief and especially deadeye. because i havent heard anything good on the PvE, sPvP parts about deadeye and in WvW, well i did hear either it is trash or that it is OP, not that it is in a good spot right now, so overall more negative feedback then positive, therefor i wouldnt be suprised if DE specially with rifle actually gets some buffs. > > except how much condi cleanse do you have how fast can they spam the condi go try wvw. see how your theory of power over condi works go try raids, they've got a curious preference for condi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 > @"arenta.2953" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"arenta.2953" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > i have just killed the skale from your test 15 times and then i got a dc. shots were between 27102 and 31876 so if he has only slightly more thoughness then a marauder reaper, then i would never hit 35k+ hits but they do happen even without vuln. actually while being up there in the north of ebg for the skale i came across a zerg and hit a reaper for 39756, considering i had over 4k difference between lowest and highest hits on skale, then considering this as a rather low hit the 42k hit could be on the same target. > > > > but anyway how much exactly it hits is not really important for the topic i guess as it is about DJ being able to hit very high and without protection few people survive after a DJ. it is not really a question about balance as yes in theory the DJ itself is easily avoided but it surely is not a healthy game design. the skill is also only actually needed in outnumbered situations, if i am highly outnumbered i will just mark and camp stealth etc. in 1 vs 2 i often mark one, while preassuring the second to hopefully get him down by the time malice is up so i can oneshot his mate while rezzing. but for rather even fights you dont need that skill at all, it is tho more convenient to oneshot instead of triggering 10 auto procs by attacking more often. > > > > > > ok, and thats not a DJ specific thing > > > > > > as i showed earlier, Killshot from warrior rifle can do the same (without needing deadeye's mark to be max malice, and without the target painter light to give away the attack. killshot is instant) > > > > > at least in my planer your link didnt show me higher killshot values, unless you didnt calculate in the malice bonus. aside from that i think it is harder to land a killshot then a DJ, tho might be cause i am too inexperienced with warrior. > > > if your target sits there to let mark get to max. then thats their own fault. its like sitting in the middle of an elementalist fire storm. you can't cure stupidity. > > > specially when you have a 15-20 secound warning, and then a flashy laser light to say exactly when to dodge. > > as said before: it true can be avoided , has enough tells so it is balancewise fine. still not healthy design > > > so if you outnumbered and they sit there. thats not an argument. > > that was not an argument i said i only need the skill in a outnumbered situation, while normaly one should never stand a chance outnumbered on even skill level, therefor i dont really need this skill, could be replaced with something different that is more use to a in and out of stealth gameplay or for repositoning. > > > and again, the only ones u can 1 shot are those with broken armor, under leveled armor, glass cannons with no toughness. or extremely low vit builds. > > that is simply not correct, there are very few builds that can survive a glassy DJ without protection. > > > the same argument could be used on Scourge and mesmer. who cna condi spam down anyone. and unlike thief, condi dmg can't be negated by armor. in fact it doesn't care about armor at all. nothing stops condi dmg but the resistance buff. and that buff is pretty rare and short lasting > > > > condi can be cleansed so it will allways be weaker then power damage imo, that why i prefer playing power. > > > > > in Summary: Death's Judgement is fine. if you want to remove every high alpha hit in the game, Death's Judgement is 5th in line(and even then, the other competition don't need a 15-20 secound start up time and a laser "dodge now" telegraph) > > > > as said above balancewise it is fine, but it is not really fun to play against. > > > > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > i have just killed the skale from your test 15 times and then i got a dc. shots were between 27102 and 31876 so if he has only slightly more thoughness then a marauder reaper, then i would never hit 35k+ hits but they do happen even without vuln. actually while being up there in the north of ebg for the skale i came across a zerg and hit a reaper for 39756, considering i had over 4k difference between lowest and highest hits on skale, then considering this as a rather low hit the 42k hit could be on the same target. > > > > but anyway how much exactly it hits is not really important for the topic i guess as it is about DJ being able to hit very high and without protection few people survive after a DJ. it is not really a question about balance as yes in theory the DJ itself is easily avoided but it surely is not a healthy game design. the skill is also only actually needed in outnumbered situations, if i am highly outnumbered i will just mark and camp stealth etc. in 1 vs 2 i often mark one, while preassuring the second to hopefully get him down by the time malice is up so i can oneshot his mate while rezzing. but for rather even fights you dont need that skill at all, it is tho more convenient to oneshot instead of triggering 10 auto procs by attacking more often. > > > > > > That's still really weird because the numbers don't fully add up. I've been trying to figure out what the missing link is all day and can't. I genuinely don't know why you're hitting so much harder than expected. > > > > > > As far as it not being healthy game design... Absolutely. I've advocated against the notion of a sniper spec with stealth for this exact reason for a very long time. Most of the thieves in the higher skill echelons also have. It's not fun to play against at the end of the day and feels very cheesy. Honestly, if they just outright removed DJ and reduced the initiative cost on Death's Retreat while making it usable in Kneel and tweaked some coefficients around while bumping up malice generation speed, the spec would be a lot healthier and more fun to play against. > > > > > > Thing here is that the core of the issue comes from SA + D/P more than DE. When nukes and permanent stealth are combined, there's a problem. The setup time makes it artificially weak because it can be mitigated so easily, yet it requires doing the most anti-fun thing to negate it: Not playing against it. It also severely limits the situations DE can be played in due to the timer on Malice; you can't use it in a zerg because people will see the mark and run away into the blob. It's the reason I even made my original proposal for the DE based on Revealed; the gameplay is so much healthier for opponents and opens up the thief to do more cool things mechanically without being anti-fun to play against. Permastealth is fine if you can't nuke from it as it's then just a tool for the thief to try and take shelter from incoming damage temporarily like any other immunity effect, but it's otherwise impossible to balance and make a fun mechanic out of when they can poof for 30s and OHKO you. > > > > i played with SA and d/p also before PoF, but not as glassy. still rather soft targets would die pretty instant to backstab followed by a few quickness AA. > > personally i see backstab out of perma stealth a greater issue then DJ, with that very same DE build i hit glas mesmer regularly for ~20k backstab and sometimes goes up to about 25k that is a onehit only avoidable by prediction, works also for most thieves and FA eles, even oneshot a DH with over 18k backstab last week... > > thief was allways a bursty class, to remove nukes from stealth you would need to strip thief of bursts. but then thief would need to be able to apply constantly damage, wich is not possible while avoiding enemy damage as we dont have invuln skills. this would require alot of changes to the class, that i dont see coming. or you would need to strip the thief of so much stealth, then we would be pushed to an evasive playstyle. i personally think stealthstacking is healthier then evadespamming tho, it has at least counterplay. > > > > i am curious what changes we will get in 2 days, those might indicate how anet currently does look at the thief and especially deadeye. because i havent heard anything good on the PvE, sPvP parts about deadeye and in WvW, well i did hear either it is trash or that it is OP, not that it is in a good spot right now, so overall more negative feedback then positive, therefor i wouldnt be suprised if DE specially with rifle actually gets some buffs. > > > > > > except how much condi cleanse do you have > > how fast can they spam the condi > > go try wvw. see how your theory of power over condi works > go try raids, they've got a curious preference for condi i know that to me personally power can oneshot me , condi needs CC to prevent me from cleansing it. as i dont want to put up another video here just go at the above video to 13:50, there a scourge places alot of funny stuff dealing pretty much 0 damage cause stealth. i only need to eat half a shatter if at all from a power mesmer to die, from condi ones i mostly survive if i dont get CCed after the shatter or have instant stealth ready - or i just run into bad condi players, i dont know. being able to cleanse condis is a 2nd chance to avoid the damage, that you are not granted for power damage, i simply dont want to give my opponents this chance. but well maybe that is just personal preference - i just think it is alot easier to fight and to avoid the damage of a condi player then a power. 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arenta.2953 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"arenta.2953" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"arenta.2953" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > i have just killed the skale from your test 15 times and then i got a dc. shots were between 27102 and 31876 so if he has only slightly more thoughness then a marauder reaper, then i would never hit 35k+ hits but they do happen even without vuln. actually while being up there in the north of ebg for the skale i came across a zerg and hit a reaper for 39756, considering i had over 4k difference between lowest and highest hits on skale, then considering this as a rather low hit the 42k hit could be on the same target. > > > > > but anyway how much exactly it hits is not really important for the topic i guess as it is about DJ being able to hit very high and without protection few people survive after a DJ. it is not really a question about balance as yes in theory the DJ itself is easily avoided but it surely is not a healthy game design. the skill is also only actually needed in outnumbered situations, if i am highly outnumbered i will just mark and camp stealth etc. in 1 vs 2 i often mark one, while preassuring the second to hopefully get him down by the time malice is up so i can oneshot his mate while rezzing. but for rather even fights you dont need that skill at all, it is tho more convenient to oneshot instead of triggering 10 auto procs by attacking more often. > > > > > > > > ok, and thats not a DJ specific thing > > > > > > > > as i showed earlier, Killshot from warrior rifle can do the same (without needing deadeye's mark to be max malice, and without the target painter light to give away the attack. killshot is instant) > > > > > > > at least in my planer your link didnt show me higher killshot values, unless you didnt calculate in the malice bonus. aside from that i think it is harder to land a killshot then a DJ, tho might be cause i am too inexperienced with warrior. > > > > if your target sits there to let mark get to max. then thats their own fault. its like sitting in the middle of an elementalist fire storm. you can't cure stupidity. > > > > specially when you have a 15-20 secound warning, and then a flashy laser light to say exactly when to dodge. > > > as said before: it true can be avoided , has enough tells so it is balancewise fine. still not healthy design > > > > so if you outnumbered and they sit there. thats not an argument. > > > that was not an argument i said i only need the skill in a outnumbered situation, while normaly one should never stand a chance outnumbered on even skill level, therefor i dont really need this skill, could be replaced with something different that is more use to a in and out of stealth gameplay or for repositoning. > > > > and again, the only ones u can 1 shot are those with broken armor, under leveled armor, glass cannons with no toughness. or extremely low vit builds. > > > that is simply not correct, there are very few builds that can survive a glassy DJ without protection. > > > > the same argument could be used on Scourge and mesmer. who cna condi spam down anyone. and unlike thief, condi dmg can't be negated by armor. in fact it doesn't care about armor at all. nothing stops condi dmg but the resistance buff. and that buff is pretty rare and short lasting > > > > > > condi can be cleansed so it will allways be weaker then power damage imo, that why i prefer playing power. > > > > > > > in Summary: Death's Judgement is fine. if you want to remove every high alpha hit in the game, Death's Judgement is 5th in line(and even then, the other competition don't need a 15-20 secound start up time and a laser "dodge now" telegraph) > > > > > > as said above balancewise it is fine, but it is not really fun to play against. > > > > > > > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > i have just killed the skale from your test 15 times and then i got a dc. shots were between 27102 and 31876 so if he has only slightly more thoughness then a marauder reaper, then i would never hit 35k+ hits but they do happen even without vuln. actually while being up there in the north of ebg for the skale i came across a zerg and hit a reaper for 39756, considering i had over 4k difference between lowest and highest hits on skale, then considering this as a rather low hit the 42k hit could be on the same target. > > > > > but anyway how much exactly it hits is not really important for the topic i guess as it is about DJ being able to hit very high and without protection few people survive after a DJ. it is not really a question about balance as yes in theory the DJ itself is easily avoided but it surely is not a healthy game design. the skill is also only actually needed in outnumbered situations, if i am highly outnumbered i will just mark and camp stealth etc. in 1 vs 2 i often mark one, while preassuring the second to hopefully get him down by the time malice is up so i can oneshot his mate while rezzing. but for rather even fights you dont need that skill at all, it is tho more convenient to oneshot instead of triggering 10 auto procs by attacking more often. > > > > > > > > That's still really weird because the numbers don't fully add up. I've been trying to figure out what the missing link is all day and can't. I genuinely don't know why you're hitting so much harder than expected. > > > > > > > > As far as it not being healthy game design... Absolutely. I've advocated against the notion of a sniper spec with stealth for this exact reason for a very long time. Most of the thieves in the higher skill echelons also have. It's not fun to play against at the end of the day and feels very cheesy. Honestly, if they just outright removed DJ and reduced the initiative cost on Death's Retreat while making it usable in Kneel and tweaked some coefficients around while bumping up malice generation speed, the spec would be a lot healthier and more fun to play against. > > > > > > > > Thing here is that the core of the issue comes from SA + D/P more than DE. When nukes and permanent stealth are combined, there's a problem. The setup time makes it artificially weak because it can be mitigated so easily, yet it requires doing the most anti-fun thing to negate it: Not playing against it. It also severely limits the situations DE can be played in due to the timer on Malice; you can't use it in a zerg because people will see the mark and run away into the blob. It's the reason I even made my original proposal for the DE based on Revealed; the gameplay is so much healthier for opponents and opens up the thief to do more cool things mechanically without being anti-fun to play against. Permastealth is fine if you can't nuke from it as it's then just a tool for the thief to try and take shelter from incoming damage temporarily like any other immunity effect, but it's otherwise impossible to balance and make a fun mechanic out of when they can poof for 30s and OHKO you. > > > > > > i played with SA and d/p also before PoF, but not as glassy. still rather soft targets would die pretty instant to backstab followed by a few quickness AA. > > > personally i see backstab out of perma stealth a greater issue then DJ, with that very same DE build i hit glas mesmer regularly for ~20k backstab and sometimes goes up to about 25k that is a onehit only avoidable by prediction, works also for most thieves and FA eles, even oneshot a DH with over 18k backstab last week... > > > thief was allways a bursty class, to remove nukes from stealth you would need to strip thief of bursts. but then thief would need to be able to apply constantly damage, wich is not possible while avoiding enemy damage as we dont have invuln skills. this would require alot of changes to the class, that i dont see coming. or you would need to strip the thief of so much stealth, then we would be pushed to an evasive playstyle. i personally think stealthstacking is healthier then evadespamming tho, it has at least counterplay. > > > > > > i am curious what changes we will get in 2 days, those might indicate how anet currently does look at the thief and especially deadeye. because i havent heard anything good on the PvE, sPvP parts about deadeye and in WvW, well i did hear either it is trash or that it is OP, not that it is in a good spot right now, so overall more negative feedback then positive, therefor i wouldnt be suprised if DE specially with rifle actually gets some buffs. > > > > > > > > > > except how much condi cleanse do you have > > > > how fast can they spam the condi > > > > go try wvw. see how your theory of power over condi works > > go try raids, they've got a curious preference for condi > > i know that to me personally power can oneshot me , condi needs CC to prevent me from cleansing it. as i dont want to put up another video here just go at the above video to 13:50, there a scourge places alot of funny stuff dealing pretty much 0 damage cause stealth. i only need to eat half a shatter if at all from a power mesmer to die, from condi ones i mostly survive if i dont get CCed after the shatter or have instant stealth ready - or i just run into bad condi players, i dont know. being able to cleanse condis is a 2nd chance to avoid the damage, that you are not granted for power damage, i simply dont want to give my opponents this chance. but well maybe that is just personal preference - i just think it is alot easier to fight and to avoid the damage of a condi player then a power. cc not needed seriously. go to wvw. find a roaming scourge. see how fast the spam comes. sure you cleanse. but they reapply just as fast. and in the case of thief, your not exactly known for condi removal. specially with the nerf that made it only remove "specific condis" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 > @"arenta.2953" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"arenta.2953" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"arenta.2953" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > i have just killed the skale from your test 15 times and then i got a dc. shots were between 27102 and 31876 so if he has only slightly more thoughness then a marauder reaper, then i would never hit 35k+ hits but they do happen even without vuln. actually while being up there in the north of ebg for the skale i came across a zerg and hit a reaper for 39756, considering i had over 4k difference between lowest and highest hits on skale, then considering this as a rather low hit the 42k hit could be on the same target. > > > > > > but anyway how much exactly it hits is not really important for the topic i guess as it is about DJ being able to hit very high and without protection few people survive after a DJ. it is not really a question about balance as yes in theory the DJ itself is easily avoided but it surely is not a healthy game design. the skill is also only actually needed in outnumbered situations, if i am highly outnumbered i will just mark and camp stealth etc. in 1 vs 2 i often mark one, while preassuring the second to hopefully get him down by the time malice is up so i can oneshot his mate while rezzing. but for rather even fights you dont need that skill at all, it is tho more convenient to oneshot instead of triggering 10 auto procs by attacking more often. > > > > > > > > > > ok, and thats not a DJ specific thing > > > > > > > > > > as i showed earlier, Killshot from warrior rifle can do the same (without needing deadeye's mark to be max malice, and without the target painter light to give away the attack. killshot is instant) > > > > > > > > > at least in my planer your link didnt show me higher killshot values, unless you didnt calculate in the malice bonus. aside from that i think it is harder to land a killshot then a DJ, tho might be cause i am too inexperienced with warrior. > > > > > if your target sits there to let mark get to max. then thats their own fault. its like sitting in the middle of an elementalist fire storm. you can't cure stupidity. > > > > > specially when you have a 15-20 secound warning, and then a flashy laser light to say exactly when to dodge. > > > > as said before: it true can be avoided , has enough tells so it is balancewise fine. still not healthy design > > > > > so if you outnumbered and they sit there. thats not an argument. > > > > that was not an argument i said i only need the skill in a outnumbered situation, while normaly one should never stand a chance outnumbered on even skill level, therefor i dont really need this skill, could be replaced with something different that is more use to a in and out of stealth gameplay or for repositoning. > > > > > and again, the only ones u can 1 shot are those with broken armor, under leveled armor, glass cannons with no toughness. or extremely low vit builds. > > > > that is simply not correct, there are very few builds that can survive a glassy DJ without protection. > > > > > the same argument could be used on Scourge and mesmer. who cna condi spam down anyone. and unlike thief, condi dmg can't be negated by armor. in fact it doesn't care about armor at all. nothing stops condi dmg but the resistance buff. and that buff is pretty rare and short lasting > > > > > > > > condi can be cleansed so it will allways be weaker then power damage imo, that why i prefer playing power. > > > > > > > > > in Summary: Death's Judgement is fine. if you want to remove every high alpha hit in the game, Death's Judgement is 5th in line(and even then, the other competition don't need a 15-20 secound start up time and a laser "dodge now" telegraph) > > > > > > > > as said above balancewise it is fine, but it is not really fun to play against. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > i have just killed the skale from your test 15 times and then i got a dc. shots were between 27102 and 31876 so if he has only slightly more thoughness then a marauder reaper, then i would never hit 35k+ hits but they do happen even without vuln. actually while being up there in the north of ebg for the skale i came across a zerg and hit a reaper for 39756, considering i had over 4k difference between lowest and highest hits on skale, then considering this as a rather low hit the 42k hit could be on the same target. > > > > > > but anyway how much exactly it hits is not really important for the topic i guess as it is about DJ being able to hit very high and without protection few people survive after a DJ. it is not really a question about balance as yes in theory the DJ itself is easily avoided but it surely is not a healthy game design. the skill is also only actually needed in outnumbered situations, if i am highly outnumbered i will just mark and camp stealth etc. in 1 vs 2 i often mark one, while preassuring the second to hopefully get him down by the time malice is up so i can oneshot his mate while rezzing. but for rather even fights you dont need that skill at all, it is tho more convenient to oneshot instead of triggering 10 auto procs by attacking more often. > > > > > > > > > > That's still really weird because the numbers don't fully add up. I've been trying to figure out what the missing link is all day and can't. I genuinely don't know why you're hitting so much harder than expected. > > > > > > > > > > As far as it not being healthy game design... Absolutely. I've advocated against the notion of a sniper spec with stealth for this exact reason for a very long time. Most of the thieves in the higher skill echelons also have. It's not fun to play against at the end of the day and feels very cheesy. Honestly, if they just outright removed DJ and reduced the initiative cost on Death's Retreat while making it usable in Kneel and tweaked some coefficients around while bumping up malice generation speed, the spec would be a lot healthier and more fun to play against. > > > > > > > > > > Thing here is that the core of the issue comes from SA + D/P more than DE. When nukes and permanent stealth are combined, there's a problem. The setup time makes it artificially weak because it can be mitigated so easily, yet it requires doing the most anti-fun thing to negate it: Not playing against it. It also severely limits the situations DE can be played in due to the timer on Malice; you can't use it in a zerg because people will see the mark and run away into the blob. It's the reason I even made my original proposal for the DE based on Revealed; the gameplay is so much healthier for opponents and opens up the thief to do more cool things mechanically without being anti-fun to play against. Permastealth is fine if you can't nuke from it as it's then just a tool for the thief to try and take shelter from incoming damage temporarily like any other immunity effect, but it's otherwise impossible to balance and make a fun mechanic out of when they can poof for 30s and OHKO you. > > > > > > > > i played with SA and d/p also before PoF, but not as glassy. still rather soft targets would die pretty instant to backstab followed by a few quickness AA. > > > > personally i see backstab out of perma stealth a greater issue then DJ, with that very same DE build i hit glas mesmer regularly for ~20k backstab and sometimes goes up to about 25k that is a onehit only avoidable by prediction, works also for most thieves and FA eles, even oneshot a DH with over 18k backstab last week... > > > > thief was allways a bursty class, to remove nukes from stealth you would need to strip thief of bursts. but then thief would need to be able to apply constantly damage, wich is not possible while avoiding enemy damage as we dont have invuln skills. this would require alot of changes to the class, that i dont see coming. or you would need to strip the thief of so much stealth, then we would be pushed to an evasive playstyle. i personally think stealthstacking is healthier then evadespamming tho, it has at least counterplay. > > > > > > > > i am curious what changes we will get in 2 days, those might indicate how anet currently does look at the thief and especially deadeye. because i havent heard anything good on the PvE, sPvP parts about deadeye and in WvW, well i did hear either it is trash or that it is OP, not that it is in a good spot right now, so overall more negative feedback then positive, therefor i wouldnt be suprised if DE specially with rifle actually gets some buffs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > except how much condi cleanse do you have > > > > > > how fast can they spam the condi > > > > > > go try wvw. see how your theory of power over condi works > > > go try raids, they've got a curious preference for condi > > > > i know that to me personally power can oneshot me , condi needs CC to prevent me from cleansing it. as i dont want to put up another video here just go at the above video to 13:50, there a scourge places alot of funny stuff dealing pretty much 0 damage cause stealth. i only need to eat half a shatter if at all from a power mesmer to die, from condi ones i mostly survive if i dont get CCed after the shatter or have instant stealth ready - or i just run into bad condi players, i dont know. being able to cleanse condis is a 2nd chance to avoid the damage, that you are not granted for power damage, i simply dont want to give my opponents this chance. but well maybe that is just personal preference - i just think it is alot easier to fight and to avoid the damage of a condi player then a power. > > cc not needed > > seriously. go to wvw. find a roaming scourge. > > see how fast the spam comes. sure you cleanse. but they reapply just as fast. > > > and in the case of thief, your not exactly known for condi removal. specially with the nerf that made it only remove "specific condis" that was actually a buff to SE, previously the trait could be busy with cover conditions, now it removes damaging ones and cripple wont kill me. and i am currently roaming on thief , just captured solo the undercroft on riverside borderland - i run into enough scourges and they are far from a threat as long as i can go into stealth they can throw at me what they want. 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DeceiverX.8361 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 At least finally someone understands how strong SE is these days. People cried for weeks over the "nerf" and I was just sitting here bewildered saying how it'll prioritize the DoT while healing in permastealth in a build which doesn't even get affected by chill's cooldown reduction debuff. 20k prior to DE on a SA build is still really weird. I no longer even get those numbers running DA/CS/Tr except when hitting the glassiest of eles, which also includes the 5 vuln from CnD, and even then, 20k on a heavy only really happened with the previous iteration of signets using SoP and the bonus % damage on Assassin's signet on what still came down to being berserker-stat builds. Even yesterday messing around with it, the highest I got was 27k on a glass opposing DE. Something's super fluky here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > At least finally someone understands how strong SE is these days. People cried for weeks over the "nerf" and I was just sitting here bewildered saying how it'll prioritize the DoT while healing in permastealth in a build which doesn't even get affected by chill's cooldown reduction debuff. > > 20k prior to DE on a SA build is still really weird. I no longer even get those numbers running DA/CS/Tr except when hitting the glassiest of eles, which also includes the 5 vuln from CnD, and even then, 20k on a heavy only really happened with the previous iteration of signets using SoP and the bonus % damage on Assassin's signet on what still came down to being berserker-stat builds. > > Even yesterday messing around with it, the highest I got was 27k on a glass opposing DE. Something's super fluky here. i would need other traits or more might for 27k backstab or was that a DJ? i still have 10 might (not sure if the 3 might from revealed training are applied before damage like protetion from rune of durability or after) 21% modifier from malice and assassins signet, i only do this anyway against power mesmers who mostly are 0 thoughness and against other power thieves who also dont have much thoughness and if i happend to run into a FA ele but that is rare. so those target all have 2 things in common : no thoughness and too fast & too high counterburst to try killing them with rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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