Jack Skywalker.5674 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 > @"Flauvious.6195" said: > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > @"Flauvious.6195" said: > > > I disagree with you all, it's much better. You can get quickness from a bunch of different sources and now you also have the extra attack on impossible odds. I think you should adjust your builds and do some experimenting before acting like it's the end of the world. I'm the first one to take a dump on anet balance team and cry about how rev always gets shafted, but I feel this was truly a positive patch for us and am honestly surprised to see so much tears. > > > > > > > Excuse me what other sources of quickness? > > > > A weapon swap? A legend swap? Teleporting to a target? This a direct nerf to the meta WvW build. The only power build for Rev that was meta. And this destroys any synergy shiro had with condi builds. > > > > > People saying it does less damage than jalis hammers... Lol no. maybe if you're just standing there autoing a golem, hammers will do more damage overall because they drain energy slower, but the damage potential in short windows (you know, realistic situations) is much higher with io. > > > > No, Soulcleave is much higher than hammers, and much much higher when it's buffing the whole party. Io is moderately higher but not enough to justify the drawbacks. > > > > > Try this build. Invocation 2 3 1, Devestation 2 3 2, Herald 2 2 1, Glint and shiro, sw/sw and staff. Use sigil of cleansing and sigil of agility on both weapon sets. Then whatever rune you want; I'm trying out rune of infiltration right now for the extra precision to make up for not using rolling mists and the 12% damage increase on <50% hp targets to make up for not taking swift termination. > > > With this set up you get just under 6 seconds of quickness on weapon swap (with herald concentration), you can get 1 1/2 - 3 (realistic) Seconds of quickness when switching to shiro, and 3 1/2 seconds on use of phase travel. If you want to cleave, switch to shiro, weapon swap and turn on impossible odds. You now have like 5 seconds of quickness AND the extra strikes from new impossible odds. You won't need more than that 5 seconds to kill something. > > > > > > Now if only song of the mists shiro damage wasn't nerfed in pvp it would be strong as kitten. > > > > \You are giving up so much damage and survivability for a mediocre ability. Encouraging people to waste weapon swap on a class built around strong autos is ridiculous. > > > > > > > > > > LOL what survivability? What survivability are you giving up? "So much damage" why because of swift termination? > > How are you going to bring up soulcleaves summit? Yea let's just compare random abilities without taking into account the fact that you have to be fuckin renegade to have access to that kitten. Also "waste weapon swap"... just what? Why us it a waste? What else you going to use It for? You think by the time you've downed someone you haven't blown all your current weapons cd's? > > Why you ask what sources of quickness and then go on to list the other sources? There you go. The only meta power rev build in wvw is stand in the back hurling hammers. Maybe this got nerfed because you don't weapon swap or use phase travel, but whatever, that build sucked anyway. Yeah you do,you swap to staff when someone gets in melee and you burned the weapon CD's. As it stands right now, you have to run 2 coppies of the same weapon just to proc Brutality and maintain your most used weapon skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeIntheboX.5431 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 I'm gutted by this change IO was such a pleasure to use for its quickness in pve, there are several classes in every game mode that are more "op" then Rev. This change is garbage and being a rev main has really soured me on the game, IO has worked the same way since the release of the class for christ's sake, changing it now makes no sense! My desire to play gw2 has dropped to a new low... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flauvious.6195 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 > @"Jack Skywalker.5674" said: > > @"Flauvious.6195" said: > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > @"Flauvious.6195" said: > > > > I disagree with you all, it's much better. You can get quickness from a bunch of different sources and now you also have the extra attack on impossible odds. I think you should adjust your builds and do some experimenting before acting like it's the end of the world. I'm the first one to take a dump on anet balance team and cry about how rev always gets shafted, but I feel this was truly a positive patch for us and am honestly surprised to see so much tears. > > > > > > > > > > Excuse me what other sources of quickness? > > > > > > A weapon swap? A legend swap? Teleporting to a target? This a direct nerf to the meta WvW build. The only power build for Rev that was meta. And this destroys any synergy shiro had with condi builds. > > > > > > > People saying it does less damage than jalis hammers... Lol no. maybe if you're just standing there autoing a golem, hammers will do more damage overall because they drain energy slower, but the damage potential in short windows (you know, realistic situations) is much higher with io. > > > > > > No, Soulcleave is much higher than hammers, and much much higher when it's buffing the whole party. Io is moderately higher but not enough to justify the drawbacks. > > > > > > > Try this build. Invocation 2 3 1, Devestation 2 3 2, Herald 2 2 1, Glint and shiro, sw/sw and staff. Use sigil of cleansing and sigil of agility on both weapon sets. Then whatever rune you want; I'm trying out rune of infiltration right now for the extra precision to make up for not using rolling mists and the 12% damage increase on <50% hp targets to make up for not taking swift termination. > > > > With this set up you get just under 6 seconds of quickness on weapon swap (with herald concentration), you can get 1 1/2 - 3 (realistic) Seconds of quickness when switching to shiro, and 3 1/2 seconds on use of phase travel. If you want to cleave, switch to shiro, weapon swap and turn on impossible odds. You now have like 5 seconds of quickness AND the extra strikes from new impossible odds. You won't need more than that 5 seconds to kill something. > > > > > > > > Now if only song of the mists shiro damage wasn't nerfed in pvp it would be strong as kitten. > > > > > > \You are giving up so much damage and survivability for a mediocre ability. Encouraging people to waste weapon swap on a class built around strong autos is ridiculous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL what survivability? What survivability are you giving up? "So much damage" why because of swift termination? > > > > How are you going to bring up soulcleaves summit? Yea let's just compare random abilities without taking into account the fact that you have to be fuckin renegade to have access to that kitten. Also "waste weapon swap"... just what? Why us it a waste? What else you going to use It for? You think by the time you've downed someone you haven't blown all your current weapons cd's? > > > > Why you ask what sources of quickness and then go on to list the other sources? There you go. The only meta power rev build in wvw is stand in the back hurling hammers. Maybe this got nerfed because you don't weapon swap or use phase travel, but whatever, that build sucked anyway. > > Yeah you do,you swap to staff when someone gets in melee and you burned the weapon CD's. As it stands right now, you have to run 2 coppies of the same weapon just to proc Brutality and maintain your most used weapon skills. So my perspective on this is pvp focused btw. I have no idea on the pve impact. Probably minimal. Why do you need to run copies? Both staff and sw/sw are fine weapons to be on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lalainnia.3598 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 I'm shocked no one mentioned the fact that the 10%/5% increased damage portion was removed or the tooltip is broken either way its pretty sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Skywalker.5674 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 > @"Flauvious.6195" said: > > @"Jack Skywalker.5674" said: > > > @"Flauvious.6195" said: > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > > @"Flauvious.6195" said: > > > > > I disagree with you all, it's much better. You can get quickness from a bunch of different sources and now you also have the extra attack on impossible odds. I think you should adjust your builds and do some experimenting before acting like it's the end of the world. I'm the first one to take a dump on anet balance team and cry about how rev always gets shafted, but I feel this was truly a positive patch for us and am honestly surprised to see so much tears. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Excuse me what other sources of quickness? > > > > > > > > A weapon swap? A legend swap? Teleporting to a target? This a direct nerf to the meta WvW build. The only power build for Rev that was meta. And this destroys any synergy shiro had with condi builds. > > > > > > > > > People saying it does less damage than jalis hammers... Lol no. maybe if you're just standing there autoing a golem, hammers will do more damage overall because they drain energy slower, but the damage potential in short windows (you know, realistic situations) is much higher with io. > > > > > > > > No, Soulcleave is much higher than hammers, and much much higher when it's buffing the whole party. Io is moderately higher but not enough to justify the drawbacks. > > > > > > > > > Try this build. Invocation 2 3 1, Devestation 2 3 2, Herald 2 2 1, Glint and shiro, sw/sw and staff. Use sigil of cleansing and sigil of agility on both weapon sets. Then whatever rune you want; I'm trying out rune of infiltration right now for the extra precision to make up for not using rolling mists and the 12% damage increase on <50% hp targets to make up for not taking swift termination. > > > > > With this set up you get just under 6 seconds of quickness on weapon swap (with herald concentration), you can get 1 1/2 - 3 (realistic) Seconds of quickness when switching to shiro, and 3 1/2 seconds on use of phase travel. If you want to cleave, switch to shiro, weapon swap and turn on impossible odds. You now have like 5 seconds of quickness AND the extra strikes from new impossible odds. You won't need more than that 5 seconds to kill something. > > > > > > > > > > Now if only song of the mists shiro damage wasn't nerfed in pvp it would be strong as kitten. > > > > > > > > \You are giving up so much damage and survivability for a mediocre ability. Encouraging people to waste weapon swap on a class built around strong autos is ridiculous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL what survivability? What survivability are you giving up? "So much damage" why because of swift termination? > > > > > > How are you going to bring up soulcleaves summit? Yea let's just compare random abilities without taking into account the fact that you have to be fuckin renegade to have access to that kitten. Also "waste weapon swap"... just what? Why us it a waste? What else you going to use It for? You think by the time you've downed someone you haven't blown all your current weapons cd's? > > > > > > Why you ask what sources of quickness and then go on to list the other sources? There you go. The only meta power rev build in wvw is stand in the back hurling hammers. Maybe this got nerfed because you don't weapon swap or use phase travel, but whatever, that build sucked anyway. > > > > Yeah you do,you swap to staff when someone gets in melee and you burned the weapon CD's. As it stands right now, you have to run 2 coppies of the same weapon just to proc Brutality and maintain your most used weapon skills. > > So my perspective on this is pvp focused btw. I have no idea on the pve impact. Probably minimal. > > Why do you need to run copies? Both staff and sw/sw are fine weapons to be on. For sPvP,sure. For WvW, sw/sw is inferior to hammer because you have to be in melee where you are most vulnerable to condis. You run copies of Hammer to maintain access to your most used weapon skills, preffered range (for WvW this is above 1000 where are you are safe from condi hell) and to proc brutality - that's my opinion. For other weapons and game modes I am not sure you need to do this,but I did start a separate thread to discuss it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasdamas Anklast.1607 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 This skill has ICD and it hits like wet noodles (WOOOOAH WHAT A SURPRISE). When I saw it for the first time in patch notes I was baffled a bit thinking revenant skill would hit twice now with Impossible Odds. But not only it does not work that way but also has cooldown which makes it one proc per ability use. Dear Anet can you please explain why are you giving us changes to things we were OK to begin with? And all these new traits like Song of the mists or Brutality that still suck comparing to 40% crit and 20% more base damage against target with low hp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flauvious.6195 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 > @"Jack Skywalker.5674" said: > > @"Flauvious.6195" said: > > > @"Jack Skywalker.5674" said: > > > > @"Flauvious.6195" said: > > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > > > @"Flauvious.6195" said: > > > > > > I disagree with you all, it's much better. You can get quickness from a bunch of different sources and now you also have the extra attack on impossible odds. I think you should adjust your builds and do some experimenting before acting like it's the end of the world. I'm the first one to take a dump on anet balance team and cry about how rev always gets shafted, but I feel this was truly a positive patch for us and am honestly surprised to see so much tears. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Excuse me what other sources of quickness? > > > > > > > > > > A weapon swap? A legend swap? Teleporting to a target? This a direct nerf to the meta WvW build. The only power build for Rev that was meta. And this destroys any synergy shiro had with condi builds. > > > > > > > > > > > People saying it does less damage than jalis hammers... Lol no. maybe if you're just standing there autoing a golem, hammers will do more damage overall because they drain energy slower, but the damage potential in short windows (you know, realistic situations) is much higher with io. > > > > > > > > > > No, Soulcleave is much higher than hammers, and much much higher when it's buffing the whole party. Io is moderately higher but not enough to justify the drawbacks. > > > > > > > > > > > Try this build. Invocation 2 3 1, Devestation 2 3 2, Herald 2 2 1, Glint and shiro, sw/sw and staff. Use sigil of cleansing and sigil of agility on both weapon sets. Then whatever rune you want; I'm trying out rune of infiltration right now for the extra precision to make up for not using rolling mists and the 12% damage increase on <50% hp targets to make up for not taking swift termination. > > > > > > With this set up you get just under 6 seconds of quickness on weapon swap (with herald concentration), you can get 1 1/2 - 3 (realistic) Seconds of quickness when switching to shiro, and 3 1/2 seconds on use of phase travel. If you want to cleave, switch to shiro, weapon swap and turn on impossible odds. You now have like 5 seconds of quickness AND the extra strikes from new impossible odds. You won't need more than that 5 seconds to kill something. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now if only song of the mists shiro damage wasn't nerfed in pvp it would be strong as kitten. > > > > > > > > > > \You are giving up so much damage and survivability for a mediocre ability. Encouraging people to waste weapon swap on a class built around strong autos is ridiculous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL what survivability? What survivability are you giving up? "So much damage" why because of swift termination? > > > > > > > > How are you going to bring up soulcleaves summit? Yea let's just compare random abilities without taking into account the fact that you have to be fuckin renegade to have access to that kitten. Also "waste weapon swap"... just what? Why us it a waste? What else you going to use It for? You think by the time you've downed someone you haven't blown all your current weapons cd's? > > > > > > > > Why you ask what sources of quickness and then go on to list the other sources? There you go. The only meta power rev build in wvw is stand in the back hurling hammers. Maybe this got nerfed because you don't weapon swap or use phase travel, but whatever, that build sucked anyway. > > > > > > Yeah you do,you swap to staff when someone gets in melee and you burned the weapon CD's. As it stands right now, you have to run 2 coppies of the same weapon just to proc Brutality and maintain your most used weapon skills. > > > > So my perspective on this is pvp focused btw. I have no idea on the pve impact. Probably minimal. > > > > Why do you need to run copies? Both staff and sw/sw are fine weapons to be on. > > For sPvP,sure. For WvW, sw/sw is inferior to hammer because you have to be in melee where you are most vulnerable to condis. > You run copies of Hammer to maintain access to your most used weapon skills, preffered range (for WvW this is above 1000 where are you are safe from condi hell) and to proc brutality - that's my opinion. For other weapons and game modes I am not sure you need to do this,but I did start a separate thread to discuss it. I guess we've been coming at this from 2 different perspectives then. I can see how it would be worse for hammer rev in wvw, I never liked hammer builds and prefer PvP melee builds, so to me it's a nice change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Skywalker.5674 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 > @"Flauvious.6195" said: > I guess we've been coming at this from 2 different perspectives then. I can see how it would be worse for hammer rev in wvw, I never liked hammer builds and prefer PvP melee builds, so to me it's a nice change. How is not being able to make your weapon cooldowns go down faster in favor for one extra attack a good? Could the people who use Imposible Odds to gather resources faster not interfere here please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flauvious.6195 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 > @"Jack Skywalker.5674" said: > > @"Flauvious.6195" said: > > I guess we've been coming at this from 2 different perspectives then. I can see how it would be worse for hammer rev in wvw, I never liked hammer builds and prefer PvP melee builds, so to me it's a nice change. > > How is not being able to make your weapon cooldowns go down faster in favor for one extra attack a good? Could the people who use Imposible Odds to gather resources faster not interfere here please. What? Make your cooldowns go down faster? It never did that what are you talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buran.3796 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 Played 4 PvP matches last night using the same hammer/sword + axe Glint+Shiro build I was used since the start of the season; in none of them was able to go beyond 350k damage, despite two days ago was hitting 450-500k on regular basis. The lack of mobility is also blatant: PT is no longer a useful tool and IO is sluggish as hell. Essentially a Firebrand bunker overtakes you moving along the map. Forget about keeping the pace with anything like a Thief, Warrior, Engineer, Ranger or Mesmer. Is harder to pressure Necros, also, albeit they are now in much worse place due poking them at range was really easy and now with the telegraphed burst they lost a lot of damage potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 > @"Flauvious.6195" said: > > LOL what survivability? What survivability are you giving up? "So much damage" why because of swift termination? > > How are you going to bring up soulcleaves summit? Yea let's just compare random abilities without taking into account the fact that you have to be fuckin renegade to have access to that kitten. Also "waste weapon swap"... just what? Why us it a waste? What else you going to use It for? You think by the time you've downed someone you haven't blown all your current weapons cd's? > > Why you ask what sources of quickness and then go on to list the other sources? There you go. The only meta power rev build in wvw is stand in the back hurling hammers. Maybe this got nerfed because you don't weapon swap or use phase travel, but whatever, that build sucked anyway. You have no idea how to play revenant in WvW. This isn't PVE; you can't just mash up as many DPS skills as possible and call it a day. You need defenses, and a lot of them. For this, devastation is terrible. But, because you have no clue what you're talking about, I'll slowly explain why it is that retribution, invocation, and corruption are better than devastation: **INVOCATION:** Condi cleanse and legend swap, stun break on legend swap, and protection/stability/resistance on legend swap. These are all things that are profoundly important, because all anyone ever does in WvW is _stun you then bog you down with condis_. The Rev's energy mechanic means that it has to sacrifice its offense and utility for stun breaks, effectively making stuns a no-win situation. Running invocation puts cleanse and stunbreak in place that is essentially for free, giving the rev much needed survivability. On the offensive side, invocation lets you self-cap might while solo, and also lets you double fury's strength, giving even modest builds nearly 100% crit chance, along with a 7% damage bonus while under fury, making the offensive bonus that Invocation gives far greater than what devastation can. **RETRIBUTION:** This trait gives endurance recovery, free stability, and 15% damage reduction under stability as its _minor traits_. Remember: breaking stun isn't free with this class. Also keep in mind that the rev has only one good invulnerability still now. Its facet of light or bust, so these additional damage reduction traits are invaluable. The first major is Dome of the Mists, which gives an on-demand projectile destruction bubble, while also inflicting weakness to anything inside the bubble. This makes it an invaluable skill for hammer backline, or midline skirmishing, or running solo, or basically anywhere where projectiles or getting to close to enemies are things to consider. For the other two majors, there are two philosophies you can build with. The auto protection route takes Eye for an Eye for auto protection and counter stun, and is useful because the taunt can rip an opponent from the enemy zerg if used right. This is combined with Right of the Great Dwarf for a powerful, automatic stun break and group damage reduction skill. Also, it gives you more power. The second philosophy takes Vicious Reprisal and Retaliatory evasion to give yourself _near permanent retaliation_, while also augmenting damage by 10% and gaining might. Whether you're in zergs or in small skirmishes, all these defenses and retaliation is extremely useful in putting your opponent into a box where they cannot win. **CORRUPTION:** This is the condi line, and taking devastation while running condi is obviously insane, but regardless this line still has far more utilities than devastation. First, the line lets you auto-rip boons, and in WvW boons are everywhere. Second, the line lets Mallyx sustain near permanent resistance, causing condi revs to laugh at enemies who use pure condi builds. And third, if you go for more damage, abyssal chill combined with unyielding anguish just chews people to bits. I have won several 2v1s and even a 3v1 just by luring enemies into a choke and blasting them with triple unyielding anguish. But regardless, if you aren't going for the damage route, the ability to rip boons and maintain resistance is still useful for a power rev, which is why you'll see hammer builds run it to support zergs. So, what does devastation give? Lets look: Expose Defenses: Small vulnerability at the start of a fight. Largely meaningless. Ferocious Strikes: Small DPS increase. Useless for hammer/staff. Vicious Lacerations: Less small DPS increase for sword only. Useless for hammer/staff. Jade Echo: In order to use this skill, you have to _already have lost_. Targeted Destruction: Minor damage boost. Too bad hammer/staff rev is terrible at inflicting vulnerability. Malicious Reprisal: a long cooldown unblockable buff. Hard to use properly, since all it does is squeak a few hits through temporary defenses. Nefarious Momentum: a bit of might, in an amount inferior to invocation. Assassin's Presence: small group DPS increase. Focused Siphoning: A small amount of inconsistent healing. Swift Termination: A good damage buff, but it only works if you're already sealing the deal. Assassin's Annihilation: Unfortunately, the vast majority of enemies you fight will be facing you, and those who aren't will be running away. In which case, this trait contributes very little to the fight, because you've already won if they're running away. The entire line consists of an array of tiny DPS buffs. About the only thing worth noting in WvW is Assassin's Presence. Everything else is largely inconsequential, because the defensive traits in other lines will generate far more damage via increased survival time than devastation will by directly buffing damage. Fights are won just because you have dome of the mists. Fights are won just because of permanent retaliation. Fights are won because of self-capped might and stun breaks on legend swaps. Fights are not won on Jade Echo or Malicious Reprisal. But, lets get to the trait at hand: Brutal Termination, and why I don't like. First is that it is inconvenient. You need to weapon swap to activate the quickness. This poses several problems. First, if you want a regular source of quickness, you'll have to buy a second ascended hammer, just to swap between them. This also poses the problem that once an enemy gets into melee range, you're toast. You no longer have a melee weapon, and after you use phase smash you're out of useful short-range skills. Using the double hammer method means you instantly lose any close engagements. Using double staff or double sword means you instantly lose any long range engagements. The idea of doubling up weapons is terrible. So if you don't double up weapons, then you will get quickness precisely once: when you swap to a melee weapon after a fight becomes a close range engagement. That's it. The second problem is that the rev has poor access to quickness now. You get Brutal Termination, which as above is horribly impactical. You also get Call of the Assassin, which requires you to be in melee range while swapping to shiro, in which case you'll proudly strip 1 stack of stability. Third, you get quickness from Phase Traversal. Careful, though, because in a zerg vs. zerg fight using Traversal will just teleport you to a swift death. It is, after all, a mandatory movement skill. Also, Traversal uses up over half of your available energy, so after Traversal + Surge you're helpless. The third problem is that removing stability en masse just isn't good. Stability is a short boon, and there's only some of it around at any time. You know what else gets rid of stability? More CC. Particularly, Surge of the Mists. Also, boon ripping gets rid of stability, so Banish Enchantment also works. This is a lot of trade for a very focused ability. It only works if your opponent already has stability. If they don't, then this skill does nothing. This makes the skill worse than boon ripping and more CC as a whole. So really, this is only useful if you're teamed up with a firebrand or chronomancer dedicated to giving you quickness, and you're specifically built yourself around that fact. Even then, it is only moderately useful. **tl;dr** You should be ashamed of yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kossuth.2168 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"Flauvious.6195" said: > > > > > LOL what survivability? What survivability are you giving up? "So much damage" why because of swift termination? > > > > How are you going to bring up soulcleaves summit? Yea let's just compare random abilities without taking into account the fact that you have to be fuckin renegade to have access to that kitten. Also "waste weapon swap"... just what? Why us it a waste? What else you going to use It for? You think by the time you've downed someone you haven't blown all your current weapons cd's? > > > > Why you ask what sources of quickness and then go on to list the other sources? There you go. The only meta power rev build in wvw is stand in the back hurling hammers. Maybe this got nerfed because you don't weapon swap or use phase travel, but whatever, that build sucked anyway. > > You have no idea how to play revenant in WvW. This isn't PVE; you can't just mash up as many DPS skills as possible and call it a day. You need defenses, and a lot of them. For this, devastation is terrible. But, because you have no clue what you're talking about, I'll slowly explain why it is that retribution, invocation, and corruption are better than devastation: > > **INVOCATION:** Condi cleanse and legend swap, stun break on legend swap, and protection/stability/resistance on legend swap. These are all things that are profoundly important, because all anyone ever does in WvW is _stun you then bog you down with condis_. The Rev's energy mechanic means that it has to sacrifice its offense and utility for stun breaks, effectively making stuns a no-win situation. Running invocation puts cleanse and stunbreak in place that is essentially for free, giving the rev much needed survivability. On the offensive side, invocation lets you self-cap might while solo, and also lets you double fury's strength, giving even modest builds nearly 100% crit chance, along with a 7% damage bonus while under fury, making the offensive bonus that Invocation gives far greater than what devastation can. > > **RETRIBUTION:** This trait gives endurance recovery, free stability, and 15% damage reduction under stability as its _minor traits_. Remember: breaking stun isn't free with this class. Also keep in mind that the rev has only one good invulnerability still now. Its facet of light or bust, so these additional damage reduction traits are invaluable. The first major is Dome of the Mists, which gives an on-demand projectile destruction bubble, while also inflicting weakness to anything inside the bubble. This makes it an invaluable skill for hammer backline, or midline skirmishing, or running solo, or basically anywhere where projectiles or getting to close to enemies are things to consider. For the other two majors, there are two philosophies you can build with. The auto protection route takes Eye for an Eye for auto protection and counter stun, and is useful because the taunt can rip an opponent from the enemy zerg if used right. This is combined with Right of the Great Dwarf for a powerful, automatic stun break and group damage reduction skill. Also, it gives you more power. The second philosophy takes Vicious Reprisal and Retaliatory evasion to give yourself _near permanent retaliation_, while also augmenting damage by 10% and gaining might. Whether you're in zergs or in small skirmishes, all these defenses and retaliation is extremely useful in putting your opponent into a box where they cannot win. > > **CORRUPTION:** This is the condi line, and taking devastation while running condi is obviously insane, but regardless this line still has far more utilities than devastation. First, the line lets you auto-rip boons, and in WvW boons are everywhere. Second, the line lets Mallyx sustain near permanent resistance, causing condi revs to laugh at enemies who use pure condi builds. And third, if you go for more damage, abyssal chill combined with unyielding anguish just chews people to bits. I have won several 2v1s and even a 3v1 just by luring enemies into a choke and blasting them with triple unyielding anguish. But regardless, if you aren't going for the damage route, the ability to rip boons and maintain resistance is still useful for a power rev, which is why you'll see hammer builds run it to support zergs. > > So, what does devastation give? Lets look: > > Expose Defenses: Small vulnerability at the start of a fight. Largely meaningless. > Ferocious Strikes: Small DPS increase. Useless for hammer/staff. > Vicious Lacerations: Less small DPS increase for sword only. Useless for hammer/staff. > Jade Echo: In order to use this skill, you have to _already have lost_. > Targeted Destruction: Minor damage boost. Too bad hammer/staff rev is terrible at inflicting vulnerability. > Malicious Reprisal: a long cooldown unblockable buff. Hard to use properly, since all it does is squeak a few hits through temporary defenses. > Nefarious Momentum: a bit of might, in an amount inferior to invocation. > Assassin's Presence: small group DPS increase. > Focused Siphoning: A small amount of inconsistent healing. > Swift Termination: A good damage buff, but it only works if you're already sealing the deal. > Assassin's Annihilation: Unfortunately, the vast majority of enemies you fight will be facing you, and those who aren't will be running away. In which case, this trait contributes very little to the fight, because you've already won if they're running away. > > The entire line consists of an array of tiny DPS buffs. About the only thing worth noting in WvW is Assassin's Presence. Everything else is largely inconsequential, because the defensive traits in other lines will generate far more damage via increased survival time than devastation will by directly buffing damage. Fights are won just because you have dome of the mists. Fights are won just because of permanent retaliation. Fights are won because of self-capped might and stun breaks on legend swaps. Fights are not won on Jade Echo or Malicious Reprisal. But, lets get to the trait at hand: Brutal Termination, and why I don't like. > > First is that it is inconvenient. You need to weapon swap to activate the quickness. This poses several problems. First, if you want a regular source of quickness, you'll have to buy a second ascended hammer, just to swap between them. This also poses the problem that once an enemy gets into melee range, you're toast. You no longer have a melee weapon, and after you use phase smash you're out of useful short-range skills. Using the double hammer method means you instantly lose any close engagements. Using double staff or double sword means you instantly lose any long range engagements. The idea of doubling up weapons is terrible. So if you don't double up weapons, then you will get quickness precisely once: when you swap to a melee weapon after a fight becomes a close range engagement. That's it. > > The second problem is that the rev has poor access to quickness now. You get Brutal Termination, which as above is horribly impactical. You also get Call of the Assassin, which requires you to be in melee range while swapping to shiro, in which case you'll proudly strip 1 stack of stability. Third, you get quickness from Phase Traversal. Careful, though, because in a zerg vs. zerg fight using Traversal will just teleport you to a swift death. It is, after all, a mandatory movement skill. Also, Traversal uses up over half of your available energy, so after Traversal + Surge you're helpless. > > The third problem is that removing stability en masse just isn't good. Stability is a short boon, and there's only some of it around at any time. You know what else gets rid of stability? More CC. Particularly, Surge of the Mists. Also, boon ripping gets rid of stability, so Banish Enchantment also works. This is a lot of trade for a very focused ability. It only works if your opponent already has stability. If they don't, then this skill does nothing. This makes the skill worse than boon ripping and more CC as a whole. > > So really, this is only useful if you're teamed up with a firebrand or chronomancer dedicated to giving you quickness, and you're specifically built yourself around that fact. Even then, it is only moderately useful. > > **tl;dr** You should be ashamed of yourself. Thank you for this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 @"Flauvious.6195" I am coming from both perspectives. Swapping from sword into staff is a dps loss. And the weapon swap cd is used for better sigils than agility. @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" your rant is ill-informed. Backline Rev runs devastation and uses IO to spam CoR and auto with swift termination to pressure the enemy team. It runs Shiro/Glint Invocation/Devastation/Herald. It does not run Mallyx or Jalis, nor is it a condi build, nor does it (or should it when played correctly) take hits frequently. Neither corruption nor retribution are useful. The funny part is you started saying Brutal Termination instead of Brutality and Swift Termination and then in three rambling paragraphs listed things I and other people had already mentioned as problems with Brutality. The disappointing part is to say Flauvious should be ashamed when you have such a mangled understanding of WvW. And you felt it was okay to write so much without condensing your thoughts or checking for errors in grammar and punctuation. @"Kossuth.2168" thank you for contributing to the toxicity of this subforum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enferian.2705 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"Flauvious.6195" said: > > > > > LOL what survivability? What survivability are you giving up? "So much damage" why because of swift termination? > > > > How are you going to bring up soulcleaves summit? Yea let's just compare random abilities without taking into account the fact that you have to be fuckin renegade to have access to that kitten. Also "waste weapon swap"... just what? Why us it a waste? What else you going to use It for? You think by the time you've downed someone you haven't blown all your current weapons cd's? > > > > Why you ask what sources of quickness and then go on to list the other sources? There you go. The only meta power rev build in wvw is stand in the back hurling hammers. Maybe this got nerfed because you don't weapon swap or use phase travel, but whatever, that build sucked anyway. > > You have no idea how to play revenant in WvW. This isn't PVE; you can't just mash up as many DPS skills as possible and call it a day. You need defenses, and a lot of them. For this, devastation is terrible. But, because you have no clue what you're talking about, I'll slowly explain why it is that retribution, invocation, and corruption are better than devastation: > > **INVOCATION:** Condi cleanse and legend swap, stun break on legend swap, and protection/stability/resistance on legend swap. These are all things that are profoundly important, because all anyone ever does in WvW is _stun you then bog you down with condis_. The Rev's energy mechanic means that it has to sacrifice its offense and utility for stun breaks, effectively making stuns a no-win situation. Running invocation puts cleanse and stunbreak in place that is essentially for free, giving the rev much needed survivability. On the offensive side, invocation lets you self-cap might while solo, and also lets you double fury's strength, giving even modest builds nearly 100% crit chance, along with a 7% damage bonus while under fury, making the offensive bonus that Invocation gives far greater than what devastation can. > > **RETRIBUTION:** This trait gives endurance recovery, free stability, and 15% damage reduction under stability as its _minor traits_. Remember: breaking stun isn't free with this class. Also keep in mind that the rev has only one good invulnerability still now. Its facet of light or bust, so these additional damage reduction traits are invaluable. The first major is Dome of the Mists, which gives an on-demand projectile destruction bubble, while also inflicting weakness to anything inside the bubble. This makes it an invaluable skill for hammer backline, or midline skirmishing, or running solo, or basically anywhere where projectiles or getting to close to enemies are things to consider. For the other two majors, there are two philosophies you can build with. The auto protection route takes Eye for an Eye for auto protection and counter stun, and is useful because the taunt can rip an opponent from the enemy zerg if used right. This is combined with Right of the Great Dwarf for a powerful, automatic stun break and group damage reduction skill. Also, it gives you more power. The second philosophy takes Vicious Reprisal and Retaliatory evasion to give yourself _near permanent retaliation_, while also augmenting damage by 10% and gaining might. Whether you're in zergs or in small skirmishes, all these defenses and retaliation is extremely useful in putting your opponent into a box where they cannot win. > > **CORRUPTION:** This is the condi line, and taking devastation while running condi is obviously insane, but regardless this line still has far more utilities than devastation. First, the line lets you auto-rip boons, and in WvW boons are everywhere. Second, the line lets Mallyx sustain near permanent resistance, causing condi revs to laugh at enemies who use pure condi builds. And third, if you go for more damage, abyssal chill combined with unyielding anguish just chews people to bits. I have won several 2v1s and even a 3v1 just by luring enemies into a choke and blasting them with triple unyielding anguish. But regardless, if you aren't going for the damage route, the ability to rip boons and maintain resistance is still useful for a power rev, which is why you'll see hammer builds run it to support zergs. > > So, what does devastation give? Lets look: > > Expose Defenses: Small vulnerability at the start of a fight. Largely meaningless. > Ferocious Strikes: Small DPS increase. Useless for hammer/staff. > Vicious Lacerations: Less small DPS increase for sword only. Useless for hammer/staff. > Jade Echo: In order to use this skill, you have to _already have lost_. > Targeted Destruction: Minor damage boost. Too bad hammer/staff rev is terrible at inflicting vulnerability. > Malicious Reprisal: a long cooldown unblockable buff. Hard to use properly, since all it does is squeak a few hits through temporary defenses. > Nefarious Momentum: a bit of might, in an amount inferior to invocation. > Assassin's Presence: small group DPS increase. > Focused Siphoning: A small amount of inconsistent healing. > Swift Termination: A good damage buff, but it only works if you're already sealing the deal. > Assassin's Annihilation: Unfortunately, the vast majority of enemies you fight will be facing you, and those who aren't will be running away. In which case, this trait contributes very little to the fight, because you've already won if they're running away. > > The entire line consists of an array of tiny DPS buffs. About the only thing worth noting in WvW is Assassin's Presence. Everything else is largely inconsequential, because the defensive traits in other lines will generate far more damage via increased survival time than devastation will by directly buffing damage. Fights are won just because you have dome of the mists. Fights are won just because of permanent retaliation. Fights are won because of self-capped might and stun breaks on legend swaps. Fights are not won on Jade Echo or Malicious Reprisal. But, lets get to the trait at hand: Brutal Termination, and why I don't like. > > First is that it is inconvenient. You need to weapon swap to activate the quickness. This poses several problems. First, if you want a regular source of quickness, you'll have to buy a second ascended hammer, just to swap between them. This also poses the problem that once an enemy gets into melee range, you're toast. You no longer have a melee weapon, and after you use phase smash you're out of useful short-range skills. Using the double hammer method means you instantly lose any close engagements. Using double staff or double sword means you instantly lose any long range engagements. The idea of doubling up weapons is terrible. So if you don't double up weapons, then you will get quickness precisely once: when you swap to a melee weapon after a fight becomes a close range engagement. That's it. > > The second problem is that the rev has poor access to quickness now. You get Brutal Termination, which as above is horribly impactical. You also get Call of the Assassin, which requires you to be in melee range while swapping to shiro, in which case you'll proudly strip 1 stack of stability. Third, you get quickness from Phase Traversal. Careful, though, because in a zerg vs. zerg fight using Traversal will just teleport you to a swift death. It is, after all, a mandatory movement skill. Also, Traversal uses up over half of your available energy, so after Traversal + Surge you're helpless. > > The third problem is that removing stability en masse just isn't good. Stability is a short boon, and there's only some of it around at any time. You know what else gets rid of stability? More CC. Particularly, Surge of the Mists. Also, boon ripping gets rid of stability, so Banish Enchantment also works. This is a lot of trade for a very focused ability. It only works if your opponent already has stability. If they don't, then this skill does nothing. This makes the skill worse than boon ripping and more CC as a whole. > > So really, this is only useful if you're teamed up with a firebrand or chronomancer dedicated to giving you quickness, and you're specifically built yourself around that fact. Even then, it is only moderately useful. > > **tl;dr** You should be ashamed of yourself. There are many things that are half-right or just plain wrong in this comment and most of them come down to bias. You have some valid points, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeepBoopBap.2840 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 > @"Buran.3796" said: > Played 4 PvP matches last night using the same hammer/sword + axe Glint+Shiro build I was used since the start of the season; in none of them was able to go beyond 350k damage, despite two days ago was hitting 450-500k on regular basis. The lack of mobility is also blatant: PT is no longer a useful tool and IO is sluggish as hell. Essentially a Firebrand bunker overtakes you moving along the map. Forget about keeping the pace with anything like a Thief, Warrior, Engineer, Ranger or Mesmer. > > Is harder to pressure Necros, also, albeit they are now in much worse place due poking them at range was really easy and now with the telegraphed burst they lost a lot of damage potential. I did the same about 4 matches. I used s/s staff, got most kills and damage most games and most defense in one lmao. I definitely feel the other classes got nerfed and revenant has a defined role as fb killer with Brutality. Feels weird and less fun though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" your rant is ill-informed. Backline Rev runs devastation and uses IO to spam CoR and auto with swift termination to pressure the enemy team. It runs Shiro/Glint Invocation/Devastation/Herald. It does not run Mallyx or Jalis, nor is it a condi build, nor does it (or should it when played correctly) take hits frequently. Neither corruption nor retribution are useful. > > The funny part is you started saying Brutal Termination instead of Brutality and Swift Termination and then in three rambling paragraphs listed things I and other people had already mentioned as problems with Brutality. Yeah no. There's more than one hammer build for rev. If all you ever do is pole position at maximum range you can take devastation for the damage bonuses, but if you do anything else you'll swap out of it like I did. That's because, as I said in so many words above, devastation does nothing but give minor DPS bonuses. The defensive support hammer build takes glint/mallyx with corruption, because there is one thing that the rev is uniquely good at: resistance. A lot of people call for a resistance bot, and to be fair it is useful to have a group that ignores all of the incoming condi damage. That build is good for group support, but for personal survival it is pretty bad, due to the the conflicting nature of all of the utilities. Unless you're fighting a pure condi build, in which case it is nigh unstoppable. If you're running a build that alternates between backline, frontline, pushing, skirmishing, small groups, defense, and solo roaming, then it is hard to beat retribution/invocation, precisely because it provides tools that are useful in every kind of engagement. **Therefore**, if you go for devastation, the defenses you're giving up are Dome of the Mists, Enduring Recovery, Unwavering Performance, Determined Resolution, then either the combination of Eye for an Eye + Versed in stone OR Retaliatory Evasion + Vicious Reprisal. As far as utilities go, it is always glint + X. Shiro _was_ good because of permanent quickness, but it still receives play because it is the only utility with an escape skill. Jalis is good for separate reasons, particularly the retaliation, the condi cleanse, the fact that it is the only utility with an active heal, and the 1200 range taunt. Mallyx is used as a resistance bot, but also to rip boons. The whole "when played correctly" thing is a load of BS. No plan survives engagement with the enemy. I've seen entire zergs get eaten alive, and before Phase Traversal was nerfed I would regularly hunt down stragglers after winning an engagement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XxsdgxX.8109 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 All they keep doing are "sidegrades" instead of just straight buffing. As someone said they also removed the bonus damage from Impossible Odds......... this is hopeless. Depressing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meri.9187 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 IO is better than it used to be with two skills and two skills only: staff 5 and sword 3, aka the only two skills that land a high amount of damage while being unaffected by quickness. Otherwise? It's a straight nerf to our ability to actually land damage and that's the end of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" your rant is ill-informed. Backline Rev runs devastation and uses IO to spam CoR and auto with swift termination to pressure the enemy team. It runs Shiro/Glint Invocation/Devastation/Herald. It does not run Mallyx or Jalis, nor is it a condi build, nor does it (or should it when played correctly) take hits frequently. Neither corruption nor retribution are useful. > > > > The funny part is you started saying Brutal Termination instead of Brutality and Swift Termination and then in three rambling paragraphs listed things I and other people had already mentioned as problems with Brutality. > > Yeah no. There's more than one hammer build for rev. If all you ever do is pole position at maximum range you can take devastation for the damage bonuses, but if you do anything else you'll swap out of it like I did. That's because, as I said in so many words above, devastation does nothing but give minor DPS bonuses. The defensive support hammer build takes glint/mallyx with corruption, because there is one thing that the rev is uniquely good at: resistance. A lot of people call for a resistance bot, and to be fair it is useful to have a group that ignores all of the incoming condi damage. That build is good for group support, but for personal survival it is pretty bad, due to the the conflicting nature of all of the utilities. Unless you're fighting a pure condi build, in which case it is nigh unstoppable. > > If you're running a build that alternates between backline, frontline, pushing, skirmishing, small groups, defense, and solo roaming, then it is hard to beat retribution/invocation, precisely because it provides tools that are useful in every kind of engagement. **Therefore**, if you go for devastation, the defenses you're giving up are Dome of the Mists, Enduring Recovery, Unwavering Performance, Determined Resolution, then either the combination of Eye for an Eye + Versed in stone OR Retaliatory Evasion + Vicious Reprisal. As far as utilities go, it is always glint + X. Shiro _was_ good because of permanent quickness, but it still receives play because it is the only utility with an escape skill. Jalis is good for separate reasons, particularly the retaliation, the condi cleanse, the fact that it is the only utility with an active heal, and the 1200 range taunt. Mallyx is used as a resistance bot, but also to rip boons. > > The whole "when played correctly" thing is a load of BS. No plan survives engagement with the enemy. I've seen entire zergs get eaten alive, and before Phase Traversal was nerfed I would regularly hunt down stragglers after winning an engagement. Why are you trying to play a backline build as frontline/roaming/whatever? That's not how WvW works. Builds and teams are optimized to work within specific criteria. Devastation isn't a minor dps buff. And your weird playstyle is a dps nerf to the other backliners who now get inconsistent facet/assassin's presence uptime. You want to run Jalis/Glint with retribution instead of devastation? Fine, but don't make the backliners suffer because you want to yolo in the front. If you can't do that properly then switch to a frontline build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Skywalker.5674 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" your rant is ill-informed. Backline Rev runs devastation and uses IO to spam CoR and auto with swift termination to pressure the enemy team. It runs Shiro/Glint Invocation/Devastation/Herald. It does not run Mallyx or Jalis, nor is it a condi build, nor does it (or should it when played correctly) take hits frequently. Neither corruption nor retribution are useful. > > > > > > The funny part is you started saying Brutal Termination instead of Brutality and Swift Termination and then in three rambling paragraphs listed things I and other people had already mentioned as problems with Brutality. > > > > Yeah no. There's more than one hammer build for rev. If all you ever do is pole position at maximum range you can take devastation for the damage bonuses, but if you do anything else you'll swap out of it like I did. That's because, as I said in so many words above, devastation does nothing but give minor DPS bonuses. The defensive support hammer build takes glint/mallyx with corruption, because there is one thing that the rev is uniquely good at: resistance. A lot of people call for a resistance bot, and to be fair it is useful to have a group that ignores all of the incoming condi damage. That build is good for group support, but for personal survival it is pretty bad, due to the the conflicting nature of all of the utilities. Unless you're fighting a pure condi build, in which case it is nigh unstoppable. > > > > If you're running a build that alternates between backline, frontline, pushing, skirmishing, small groups, defense, and solo roaming, then it is hard to beat retribution/invocation, precisely because it provides tools that are useful in every kind of engagement. **Therefore**, if you go for devastation, the defenses you're giving up are Dome of the Mists, Enduring Recovery, Unwavering Performance, Determined Resolution, then either the combination of Eye for an Eye + Versed in stone OR Retaliatory Evasion + Vicious Reprisal. As far as utilities go, it is always glint + X. Shiro _was_ good because of permanent quickness, but it still receives play because it is the only utility with an escape skill. Jalis is good for separate reasons, particularly the retaliation, the condi cleanse, the fact that it is the only utility with an active heal, and the 1200 range taunt. Mallyx is used as a resistance bot, but also to rip boons. > > > > The whole "when played correctly" thing is a load of BS. No plan survives engagement with the enemy. I've seen entire zergs get eaten alive, and before Phase Traversal was nerfed I would regularly hunt down stragglers after winning an engagement. > > > Why are you trying to play a backline build as frontline/roaming/whatever? That's not how WvW works. Builds and teams are optimized to work within specific criteria. > > Devastation isn't a minor dps buff. And your weird playstyle is a dps nerf to the other backliners who now get inconsistent facet/assassin's presence uptime. > > You want to run Jalis/Glint with retribution instead of devastation? Fine, but don't make the backliners suffer because you want to yolo in the front. If you can't do that properly then switch to a frontline build. Those are all valid adaptations. Even meta battle acknowledges that Ret is a viable replacement for Deva for the increase in surviability, but the core principal of hammer backline is to land those hammer crits as often as possible and assasin's presence can add some weight to those crits (unless you hit some sort of soft cap,then you need to consider changing either traits or gear-I would change traits,less hasle). I also agree with Blood Red Arachnid.2493 in that the tier 1 stuff on Deva are garbage for a spec revolving around a staff and a hammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"Jack Skywalker.5674" said: > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" your rant is ill-informed. Backline Rev runs devastation and uses IO to spam CoR and auto with swift termination to pressure the enemy team. It runs Shiro/Glint Invocation/Devastation/Herald. It does not run Mallyx or Jalis, nor is it a condi build, nor does it (or should it when played correctly) take hits frequently. Neither corruption nor retribution are useful. > > > > > > > > The funny part is you started saying Brutal Termination instead of Brutality and Swift Termination and then in three rambling paragraphs listed things I and other people had already mentioned as problems with Brutality. > > > > > > Yeah no. There's more than one hammer build for rev. If all you ever do is pole position at maximum range you can take devastation for the damage bonuses, but if you do anything else you'll swap out of it like I did. That's because, as I said in so many words above, devastation does nothing but give minor DPS bonuses. The defensive support hammer build takes glint/mallyx with corruption, because there is one thing that the rev is uniquely good at: resistance. A lot of people call for a resistance bot, and to be fair it is useful to have a group that ignores all of the incoming condi damage. That build is good for group support, but for personal survival it is pretty bad, due to the the conflicting nature of all of the utilities. Unless you're fighting a pure condi build, in which case it is nigh unstoppable. > > > > > > If you're running a build that alternates between backline, frontline, pushing, skirmishing, small groups, defense, and solo roaming, then it is hard to beat retribution/invocation, precisely because it provides tools that are useful in every kind of engagement. **Therefore**, if you go for devastation, the defenses you're giving up are Dome of the Mists, Enduring Recovery, Unwavering Performance, Determined Resolution, then either the combination of Eye for an Eye + Versed in stone OR Retaliatory Evasion + Vicious Reprisal. As far as utilities go, it is always glint + X. Shiro _was_ good because of permanent quickness, but it still receives play because it is the only utility with an escape skill. Jalis is good for separate reasons, particularly the retaliation, the condi cleanse, the fact that it is the only utility with an active heal, and the 1200 range taunt. Mallyx is used as a resistance bot, but also to rip boons. > > > > > > The whole "when played correctly" thing is a load of BS. No plan survives engagement with the enemy. I've seen entire zergs get eaten alive, and before Phase Traversal was nerfed I would regularly hunt down stragglers after winning an engagement. > > > > > > Why are you trying to play a backline build as frontline/roaming/whatever? That's not how WvW works. Builds and teams are optimized to work within specific criteria. > > > > Devastation isn't a minor dps buff. And your weird playstyle is a dps nerf to the other backliners who now get inconsistent facet/assassin's presence uptime. > > > > You want to run Jalis/Glint with retribution instead of devastation? Fine, but don't make the backliners suffer because you want to yolo in the front. If you can't do that properly then switch to a frontline build. > > Those are all valid adaptations. Even meta battle acknowledges that Ret is a viable replacement for Deva for the increase in surviability, but the core principal of hammer backline is to land those hammer crits as often as possible and assasin's presence can add some weight to those crits (unless you hit some sort of soft cap,then you need to consider changing either traits or gear-I would change traits,less hasle). I also agree with Blood Red Arachnid.2493 in that the tier 1 stuff on Deva are garbage for a spec revolving around a staff and a hammer. No. Jalis/Glint is valid. But his playstyle/other adaptations are nonsense. >The defensive support hammer build takes glint/mallyx with corruption, because there is one thing that the rev is uniquely good at: resistance.... > > If you're running a build that alternates between backline, frontline, pushing, skirmishing, small groups, defense, and solo roaming, then it is hard to beat retribution/invocation, precisely because it provides tools that are useful in every kind of engagement. He needs to support, and damage, from the backline. If he wants to go to the frontline and support he shouldn't be using a hammer. Even a midline approach to support both lines is a nerf to CoR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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