Condi removal for engineers -- bad to worse

[coglin.1496]

> @"Phineas Poe.3018" said:

> the engineer never had a weakness "dealing with" condition damage.

 

You declare the engineer has never in its history had problems with conditions at all. WHich is absolutely false. Oddly enough you go on to mention how necros were such a counter to the engineer profession and were our main weakness and describe how they killed the engineer with conditions. Ever wonder why engineer players who were not playing builds with lots of boons complained about conditions too?

 

 

[Phineas Poe.3018]

> @"coglin.1496" said:

> Ever wonder why engineer players who were not playing builds with lots of boons complained about conditions too?

 

I'd be curious to know what such a build would actually look like, because every meta build I can think of took numerous traits that passively fed boons into our attacks.

 

Invigorating Speed and Heavy Armor Exploit back in the old days is a great example of this. To maintain permanent vigor, we would constantly generate swiftness on ourselves. After Firearms fell out of favor, we started running the old Speedy Kits instead for vigor access. Without that vigor, we never would've survived the glassier metas when builds like FT/TK condi and 100nades were popular.

 

HGH has also seen near universal use for years. Both Cele Decap Rifle and PPHGH depended entirely on it for stacking might to dish out its damage. Scrapper obtains might through its own auto attack chain, so it was less necessary -- but holosmiths up until last week also took HGH.

 

I could go on talking about other good traits like Protection Injection, Transmute, Hidden Flask, and Energy Amplifier, but I'm sure I've made my point. There are no builds that can avoid generating boons. If you run Inventions and/or Alchemy, which literally every PvP engineer build in existence has done, you are playing with "lots of boons."

 

This is not even getting into weapon skills and utilities. You can't even drop a healing turret without getting regen. So, I'll just ask again: who are these engineer players you're talking about, and what builds were they running?

[coglin.1496]

> @"Phineas Poe.3018" said:

> I'd be curious to know what such a build would actually look like, because every meta build I can think of took numerous traits that passively fed boons into our attacks.

 

Well, a gyro heavy build dominated the engineering scene for two entire PvP seasons so I do not know why it is such a surprise.

 

> Invigorating Speed and Heavy Armor Exploit back in the old days is a great example of this. To maintain permanent vigor, we would constantly generate swiftness on ourselves. After Firearms fell out of favor, we started running the old Speedy Kits instead for vigor access. Without that vigor, we never would've survived the glassier metas when builds like FT/TK condi and 100nades were popular.

 

No one said "No boons ever". To suggest otherwise seems a bit intentionally obtuse. I did simply specify that they were "builds without lots of boons"

 

> HGH has also seen near universal use for years. Both Cele Decap Rifle and PPHGH depended entirely on it for stacking might to dish out its damage. Scrapper obtains might through its own auto attack chain, so it was less necessary -- but holosmiths up until last week also took HGH.

 

No one said "No boons ever". To suggest otherwise seems a bit intentionally obtuse. I did simply specify that they were "builds without lots of boons"

 

> I could go on talking about other good traits like Protection Injection, Transmute, Hidden Flask, and Energy Amplifier, but I'm sure I've made my point. There are no builds that can avoid generating boons. If you run Inventions and/or Alchemy, which literally every PvP engineer build in existence has done, you are playing with "lots of boons."

 

What point is that exactly? That you are disingenuously misrepresenting what I said and suggested I said something entirely different? As well you are being dishonest to claim "every PvP engineer build ever in existence has done"..........There are entirely too many videos of engineers in pure damage builds or the old "hundred nades" build versions, running neither inventions or alchemy.

 

> This is not even getting into weapon skills and utilities. You can't even drop a healing turret without getting regen. So, I'll just ask again: who are these engineer players you're talking about, and what builds were they running?

 

It is pretty simple, they are running builds not intentionally focused on boons. Again, I never suggested they had zero boons ever. That was simply a disingenuous implication you chose to add. It would likely serve the entire discussion in a positive fashion if you stuck to what I said instead of trying to misrepresent my meaning to suit the needs of your argument.

 

 

[Ivantreil.3092]

I tried making those no boon builds woprkout in the past Coglin, i had the idea that, if i can get a build that deals the damage without making use of boons in order to kill someone, it would be a great substitute to the reliant use of elixirs, like the ol' marauder rifle build for example.

 

Well, i tried heavy based kit builds, gadgets and kits, and let me tell you, you either end up having a sustained build wich left you with little to 0 kind of defensive utility, or you ended up with a combo build, wich, unfortunately, didnt achieved enough damage for like justify the combo, in either case you ended up running for your life as your attacks meant no threat for your oppponent, its simply pathetic the damage scaling of some skills, like [Mine Field](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mine_Field) or how cheesy is to land such skills (im looking at you, bombs, mortars, and turrets toolbelts), or worse, these 2 factors combined, right [Orbital Strike](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orbital_Strike) ?

 

There was a time where Elixir B was part of the Scrapper build during the HoT era, after SS got nerfed to oblivion, even when the build didnt spent in boon duration, you know why? because there was no kind of damage utility that resulted more useful than boons, without leaving you in a reckless and vulnerable position.

 

Only with that elixir alone, and the rest of the build made his work for shit 6 to 9 boons at average, this is from where the idea of making the drunk engi build came from, if shitting boons was a great strat, a build focused on it must be great then, and it was, it was.

 

Condi Engi was probably the best thing you could get to a non boon build that peformed great damage at the same time.... now look where it is...

[ukuni.8745]

> @"Ivantreil.3092" said:

> I tried making those no boon builds woprkout in the past Coglin, i had the idea that, if i can get a build that deals the damage without making use of boons in order to kill someone, it would be a great substitute to the reliant use of elixirs, like the ol' marauder rifle build for example.

>

> Well, i tried heavy based kit builds, gadgets and kits, and let me tell you, you either end up having a sustained build wich left you with little to 0 kind of defensive utility, or you ended up with a combo build, wich, unfortunately, didnt achieved enough damage for like justify the combo, in either case you ended up running for your life as your attacks meant no threat for your oppponent, its simply pathetic the damage scaling of some skills, like [Mine Field](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mine_Field) or how cheesy is to land such skills (im looking at you, bombs, mortars, and turrets toolbelts), or worse, these 2 factors combined, right [Orbital Strike](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orbital_Strike) ?

>

> There was a time where Elixir B was part of the Scrapper build during the HoT era, after SS got nerfed to oblivion, even when the build didnt spent in boon duration, you know why? because there was no kind of damage utility that resulted more useful than boons, without leaving you in a reckless and vulnerable position.

>

> Only with that elixir alone, and the rest of the build made his work for kitten 6 to 9 boons at average, this is from where the idea of making the drunk engi build came from, if kitten boons was a great strat, a build focused on it must be great then, and it was, it was.

>

> Condi Engi was probably the best thing you could get to a non boon build that peformed great damage at the same time.... now look where it is...

 

Static discharge is a no boon build and it preforms far better then condi engi, pre patch it still preformed better then condi engi except maybe in wvw but thats for a whole other reason.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"ukuni.8745" said:

> > @"Ivantreil.3092" said:

> > I tried making those no boon builds woprkout in the past Coglin, i had the idea that, if i can get a build that deals the damage without making use of boons in order to kill someone, it would be a great substitute to the reliant use of elixirs, like the ol' marauder rifle build for example.

> >

> > Well, i tried heavy based kit builds, gadgets and kits, and let me tell you, you either end up having a sustained build wich left you with little to 0 kind of defensive utility, or you ended up with a combo build, wich, unfortunately, didnt achieved enough damage for like justify the combo, in either case you ended up running for your life as your attacks meant no threat for your oppponent, its simply pathetic the damage scaling of some skills, like [Mine Field](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mine_Field) or how cheesy is to land such skills (im looking at you, bombs, mortars, and turrets toolbelts), or worse, these 2 factors combined, right [Orbital Strike](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orbital_Strike) ?

> >

> > There was a time where Elixir B was part of the Scrapper build during the HoT era, after SS got nerfed to oblivion, even when the build didnt spent in boon duration, you know why? because there was no kind of damage utility that resulted more useful than boons, without leaving you in a reckless and vulnerable position.

> >

> > Only with that elixir alone, and the rest of the build made his work for kitten 6 to 9 boons at average, this is from where the idea of making the drunk engi build came from, if kitten boons was a great strat, a build focused on it must be great then, and it was, it was.

> >

> > Condi Engi was probably the best thing you could get to a non boon build that peformed great damage at the same time.... now look where it is...

>

> Static discharge is a no boon build and it preforms far better then condi engi, pre patch it still preformed better then condi engi except maybe in wvw but thats for a whole other reason.

 

Yeah, but static discharge is riddled with all sorts of bugs (or bad design, take your pick) that have persisted since launch, making it unreliable at best when used in conjunction with optimal skills.

[ukuni.8745]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"ukuni.8745" said:

> > > @"Ivantreil.3092" said:

> > > I tried making those no boon builds woprkout in the past Coglin, i had the idea that, if i can get a build that deals the damage without making use of boons in order to kill someone, it would be a great substitute to the reliant use of elixirs, like the ol' marauder rifle build for example.

> > >

> > > Well, i tried heavy based kit builds, gadgets and kits, and let me tell you, you either end up having a sustained build wich left you with little to 0 kind of defensive utility, or you ended up with a combo build, wich, unfortunately, didnt achieved enough damage for like justify the combo, in either case you ended up running for your life as your attacks meant no threat for your oppponent, its simply pathetic the damage scaling of some skills, like [Mine Field](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mine_Field) or how cheesy is to land such skills (im looking at you, bombs, mortars, and turrets toolbelts), or worse, these 2 factors combined, right [Orbital Strike](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orbital_Strike) ?

> > >

> > > There was a time where Elixir B was part of the Scrapper build during the HoT era, after SS got nerfed to oblivion, even when the build didnt spent in boon duration, you know why? because there was no kind of damage utility that resulted more useful than boons, without leaving you in a reckless and vulnerable position.

> > >

> > > Only with that elixir alone, and the rest of the build made his work for kitten 6 to 9 boons at average, this is from where the idea of making the drunk engi build came from, if kitten boons was a great strat, a build focused on it must be great then, and it was, it was.

> > >

> > > Condi Engi was probably the best thing you could get to a non boon build that peformed great damage at the same time.... now look where it is...

> >

> > Static discharge is a no boon build and it preforms far better then condi engi, pre patch it still preformed better then condi engi except maybe in wvw but thats for a whole other reason.

>

> Yeah, but static discharge is riddled with all sorts of bugs (or bad design, take your pick) that have persisted since launch, making it unreliable at best when used in conjunction with optimal skills.

 

Theres only 1 bug i encounter these days amd thats the one where instant cast skills dont activate when in jumpshot or holo leaps animation.

 

That unreliability is because your trying to use skills that arnt optimal with static discharge even if every tool belt skill made static discharge track your target most skills would still be subpar because they are not instant cast skills with good damage

[MrForz.1953]

My roaming WvW builds took a rather nasty hit, and there's no way I'm sitting in a hardlight arena or playing a scrapper/core build with piss poor damage in these fields, it's already painful enough to punch through the natural defenses of many of these classes with that so called "massive damage".

[coglin.1496]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

 

> Yeah, but static discharge is riddled with all sorts of bugs (or bad design, take your pick) that have persisted since launch, making it unreliable at best when used in conjunction with optimal skills.

 

And?

The poster asked to have some builds named that were not boon focused or did not use many boons at all. The "Static discharge" build and the "Hundred nades" builds are simply two example of the very popular builds that existed for years. We are not here to argue possible bugs of any builds. If we wanted to do that, we would ask you to list your build. and then list its flaws to you as if you wouldn't already know them. As well you cannot sit here and argue the virtue of horribly designed skills like elixirs that have travel times, additional frames of animation that allow for, in most cases a 50% larger interrupt window than the skills are listed as, and the abysmal RnG component, and then act as if it is so superior. Particularly when we are simply trying to explain to you how we are thriving with the changes. You want to run RnG skill heavy and cry fowl at other builds calling them "bad designs"......seriously?

[Phineas Poe.3018]

> @"coglin.1496" said:

> The poster asked to have some builds named that were not boon focused or did not use many boons at all. The "Static discharge" build and the "Hundred nades" builds are simply two example of the very popular builds that existed for years.

 

First of all, 100nades was not a "very popular build that existed for years." It was popular for a month. Kit Refinement had its internal cooldown reduced from 20 seconds to 10 seconds in the Feb 2013 patch, which is when 100nades became good. One month later they changed the Kit Refinement effect to where equipping the grenade kit dropped a mine on the ground. People later kept calling any other grenade-centric build "100nades" to make a legacy of it, but the later builds relied on HGH to reach anywhere near the same damage output. They were also flat-out terrible.

 

Second of all, when I said "literally every build," I meant literally every **meta** build. Obviously there have been a few gimmick Explosives/Firearms/Tools type builds like SD rifle, but none of these were ever really present in the meta. Engineers went straight from 100nades to running condi setups, which remained popular until celestial was added to the game, where cele rifle pretty much dominated up until the 2015 rework.

 

And to respond to your point about there being a five gyro scrapper build: even if a scrapper runs 5 gyros on their bar, the hammer auto-attack still chains might automatically. Any scrapper build worth its salt also runs both Inventions and Alchemy regardless of how many gyros they're using.

 

You also seem to be under this belief that necromancer boon corruption is only some kind of threat if you're stacking tons of boons. It's not about the quantity of boon stacks you have on yourself; it's about how constantly they refresh. Might converts into weakness, but it's not like 25 stacks of might converts to 25 stacks of weakness. Converting 25 stacks of might and 1 stack of might results in the same amount of weakness.

 

So, if you're playing a scrapper and your hammer is constantly generating might, you're pretty much always susceptible to weakness when facing a necromancer. It doesn't matter how many condition cleansers you put into your build. Necromancers can, literally at any point in time, corrupt that might into weakness and nosedive your damage output and endurance regeneration.

 

This is why things like Purity of Purpose are incredibly dangerous. They just create more opportunities for boon corruption, and in ways you can't predict or anticipate. They've essentially put other classes on the advantage in that they can load you up with conditions, wait for you to convert, and just strip/corrupt/steal the boons you have.

 

I just have to reiterate that running around with a hundred boons simply makes you a target, and this is also precisely why using boons to cleanse conditions is _the exact opposite_ of what any experience WvW/PvP engineer would ever ask for.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"coglin.1496" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

>

> > Yeah, but static discharge is riddled with all sorts of bugs (or bad design, take your pick) that have persisted since launch, making it unreliable at best when used in conjunction with optimal skills.

>

> And?

> The poster asked to have some builds named that were not boon focused or did not use many boons at all. The "Static discharge" build and the "Hundred nades" builds are simply two example of the very popular builds that existed for years. We are not here to argue possible bugs of any builds. If we wanted to do that, we would ask you to list your build. and then list its flaws to you as if you wouldn't already know them. As well you cannot sit here and argue the virtue of horribly designed skills like elixirs that have travel times, additional frames of animation that allow for, in most cases a 50% larger interrupt window than the skills are listed as, and the abysmal RnG component, and then act as if it is so superior. Particularly when we are simply trying to explain to you how we are thriving with the changes. You want to run RnG skill heavy and cry fowl at other builds calling them "bad designs"......seriously?

 

* You complain about RNG, and then when I point out that there's weird, inconsistent behaviors with a build due to flawed design of the trait, you ignore it? What kind of double standard is that?

* Also, who is this we? Are you royalty?

* As to the "RNG" of elixirs, most people didn't use elixirs for their RNG effects - Toss elixir B was used for stability, toss elixir U for projectile disruption, etc. Elixir X's RNG is actually useful in being unpredictable against foes.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

Ive had my fair share of nerfed builds. I Was using condi mirage in WvW (you can def tell the loss in overall DPS and viability for fights), before that was Daredevil (RIP camera positioning BP stealth and other minor nerfs) and Scrapper (DPS gyro build that used gyros due to stun on fields which was 75% of my build...no kits or turrets).

 

I want to make my build work, however seems like core wont cut it and scrapper may make a comeback with a diff build.

 

Hate making legys for this reason...I change mains like every 4-6 months lol

[ukuni.8745]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"coglin.1496" said:

> > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> >

> > > Yeah, but static discharge is riddled with all sorts of bugs (or bad design, take your pick) that have persisted since launch, making it unreliable at best when used in conjunction with optimal skills.

> >

> > And?

> > The poster asked to have some builds named that were not boon focused or did not use many boons at all. The "Static discharge" build and the "Hundred nades" builds are simply two example of the very popular builds that existed for years. We are not here to argue possible bugs of any builds. If we wanted to do that, we would ask you to list your build. and then list its flaws to you as if you wouldn't already know them. As well you cannot sit here and argue the virtue of horribly designed skills like elixirs that have travel times, additional frames of animation that allow for, in most cases a 50% larger interrupt window than the skills are listed as, and the abysmal RnG component, and then act as if it is so superior. Particularly when we are simply trying to explain to you how we are thriving with the changes. You want to run RnG skill heavy and cry fowl at other builds calling them "bad designs"......seriously?

>

> * You complain about RNG, and then when I point out that there's weird, inconsistent behaviors with a build due to flawed design of the trait, you ignore it? What kind of double standard is that?

> * Also, who is this we? Are you royalty?

> * As to the "RNG" of elixirs, most people didn't use elixirs for their RNG effects - Toss elixir B was used for stability, toss elixir U for projectile disruption, etc. Elixir X's RNG is actually useful in being unpredictable against foes.

 

but there isnt inconsistent behavior in SD, the bug easily replicatable and consistent and the bug is also literally not an issue because if jump shot or holo leap dont land then neither are your SD procs which stops you from wasting them and like i already said even if SD worked properly with every skill in the game they would still be shit without taking the instant cast targeted damage based skills and what are you genna do tell me that its okay to run sub optimal skills with a build?, and comeon man tell me that those elixirs were taken with the meta engi build because of there utility and not the fact that alchemy was overstacked with everything a engi literally needed in a meta build to function properly that just so happen to work best with those skills.

 

on a side not you haven't played SD engi recently have you? no ones played SD engi without treating it like a gimmick recently have they?

[coglin.1496]

> @"Phineas Poe.3018" said:

> First of all, 100nades was not a "very popular build that existed for years." It was popular for a month. Kit Refinement had its internal cooldown reduced from 20 seconds to 10 seconds in the Feb 2013 patch, which is when 100nades became good. One month later they changed the Kit Refinement effect to where equipping the grenade kit dropped a mine on the ground. People later kept calling any other grenade-centric build "100nades" to make a legacy of it, but the later builds relied on HGH to reach anywhere near the same damage output. They were also flat-out terrible.

 

It was THE meta build for WvW for over 2 years. It was heavily used on PvP. I was meta in PvE as well as being used to solo and low man bosses, dungeons, and so on. HgH Was not a thing until they nerfed grenades to 900 range.

 

> Second of all, when I said "literally every build," I meant literally every **meta** build. Obviously there have been a few gimmick Explosives/Firearms/Tools type builds like SD rifle, but none of these were ever really present in the meta. Engineers went straight from 100nades to running condi setups, which remained popular until celestial was added to the game, where cele rifle pretty much dominated up until the 2015 rework.

 

SD and 100Nades were both meta builds. You only claim otherwise because it works against your argument. The aspect I find interesting is how many posts you made declaring how you quit this game for YEARS and focused on FFXIV, yet presume to be some authority on what the meta was while you were not playing this game

 

> And to respond to your point about there being a five gyro scrapper build: even if a scrapper runs 5 gyros on their bar, the hammer auto-attack still chains might automatically. Any scrapper build worth its salt also runs both Inventions and Alchemy regardless of how many gyros they're using.

 

Yeah, can you quote me the portion of my post in which I mention "5 gyro builds" I do not recall mentioning a build of all gyros or even offering a number of gyros? I think you are attempting to disingenuously misrepresent what I stated yet again. I am reasonably certain I stated "gyro heavy" builds.

 

I do not know how you determine a Scrapper being worth his salt. What I do know, is that I never used both of those trait lines, and I have the Legendary title from the each of the first 9 seasons.

 

> You also seem to be under this belief that necromancer boon corruption is only some kind of threat if you're stacking tons of boons. It's not about the quantity of boon stacks you have on yourself; it's about how constantly they refresh. Might converts into weakness, but it's not like 25 stacks of might converts to 25 stacks of weakness. Converting 25 stacks of might and 1 stack of might results in the same amount of weakness.

 

I never suggested it was not a threat unless you were stacking boons. I simply applied common sense in my statements and suggested it was less of a threat if you were not stacking boons. Corrupts are nowhere near the main source of damage from a condition necro when you are not making an effort to stack boons.

 

> So, if you're playing a scrapper and your hammer is constantly generating might, you're pretty much always susceptible to weakness when facing a necromancer. It doesn't matter how many condition cleansers you put into your build. Necromancers can, literally at any point in time, corrupt that might into weakness and nosedive your damage output and endurance regeneration.

 

You are mistaken, Necromancers CANNOT, literally at any point in time, corrupt that might into weakness. That is the opposite of what literally means, as that is a figurative statement because it is very easy to mathematically disprove that claim in a literal sense.

 

> This is why things like Purity of Purpose are incredibly dangerous. They just create more opportunities for boon corruption, and in ways you can't predict or anticipate. They've essentially put other classes on the advantage in that they can load you up with conditions, wait for you to convert, and just strip/corrupt/steal the boons you have.

 

It is not dangerous at all. They just made massive changes in condition, nerfing them almost across the board. Players now have an opportunity in specific skills to counter corruptions with Purity of Purpose on skills like HLA and Reconstruction Field or as can be used with Core, Holo, or Scrapper the 4 conditions converted every 15s with healing turret if you pick it up.

 

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> * You complain about RNG, and then when I point out that there's weird, inconsistent behaviors with a build due to flawed design of the trait, you ignore it? What kind of double standard is that?

 

Double standard? For what? You mention a flaw. I do not disagree. How is not responding because I agree with you, a double standard? Not certain what you expect to gain from such aggressive accusation on an issue I did not disagree with you on.

 

> * Also, who is this we? Are you royalty?

 

"We" would refer to other posters who interjected with builds that matched what I was referring too such as ukuni.8745 for example, I am uncertain how that was confusing to you.

 

And Yes, I am the second cousin to Prince Hans-Adam II. I am Orich, Duke of Schaan, but you may refer to me as "Your Grace".

 

> * As to the "RNG" of elixirs, most people didn't use elixirs for their RNG effects - Toss elixir B was used for stability, toss elixir U for projectile disruption, etc. Elixir X's RNG is actually useful in being unpredictable against foes.

 

Thank you for making my point. Of course, no one used them for their RnG effects, as it is entirely unreliable. They are also reflectable. As well they have extended animation frames that make them easily interuptable too. Thus my previous complaints about those aspects. You see, i really like the elixirs, I just dislike the RnG of the utility skills. I like the general value of the toss elixirs, I just happen to have mentiones their objective flaws only to see them defended for reasons that are irrational to me.

 

So you are trying to claim the RnG of elixir X as a positive? I call shenanigans.............

 

 

[Ivantreil.3092]

 

> You are mistaken, Necromancers CANNOT, literally at any point in time, corrupt that might into weakness. That is the opposite of what literally means, as that is a figurative statement because it is very easy to mathematically disprove that claim in a literal sense.

 

I invite you to check the wiki and search the necro scepter AA....

 

You seriously understimate necro potential to corrupt at their own will.

 

[ukuni.8745]

> @"Ivantreil.3092" said:

>

> > You are mistaken, Necromancers CANNOT, literally at any point in time, corrupt that might into weakness. That is the opposite of what literally means, as that is a figurative statement because it is very easy to mathematically disprove that claim in a literal sense.

>

> I invite you to check the wiki and search the necro scepter AA....

>

> You seriously understimate necro potential to corrupt at their own will.

>

 

 

What he was trying to say is that in order for a necro to flip your might generated by hammers auto the necro needs to wait for you to yenerate that might with the hammer auto and thats just a massive waste of time considering he could just drop a few condis on you and wait for the boons to pile up from auto procs and elixir chugging instead, theres most likely never ever going to be a situation where a necro is going to corrupt hammer might intentionally accidentally maybe.

 

 

 

[coglin.1496]

> @"Ivantreil.3092" said:

> I invite you to check the wiki and search the necro scepter AA....

 

I invite you to learn that you can do a lot of damage outside that range. As well as CC and damage them, as We have great CC access. In small group situations, a good engineer will have the necro incapacitated a large portion of the fight. Well, at least I do. If you are having difficulty with them, I would be curious as to your build and how you are using it.

 

> You seriously understimate necro potential to corrupt at their own will.

 

Maybe against you. I am well aware how to limit their options to corrupt, against me. Perhaps we run differing builds and play them differently, that you are having difficulty where I am not, and that makes it difficult to grasp the perspective of the other......

 

 

[Ardid.7203]

How does the current condi cleanse capacity of the Engie compare to other Professions? Do we have a comparable baseline, a similar number of tools, do we pay the same costs? Do we have synergy with other aspects of the Engie if we build for cleanse? Which are the Core Engie options now?

[Nilix.2170]

> @"coglin.1496" said:

> It was THE meta build for WvW for over 2 years. It was heavily used on PvP. I was meta in PvE as well as being used to solo and low man bosses, dungeons, and so on. HgH Was not a thing until they nerfed grenades to 900 range.

What Phineas said here

>People later kept calling any other grenade-centric build "100nades" to make a legacy of it, but the later builds relied on HGH to reach anywhere near the same damage output.

is essentially the truth and is also what you're doing when you call "100 Nades" a PvE build. As you might recall (because I recall it vividly), Rifle/Grenades were an absolute necessity for Engineers to be useful in group settings. 3 vuln/toss and some CC was the only thing people wanted you around for and after a while that wasn't enough. That's why we were soloing and low-manning bosses and dungeons in the first place. Because if you have a group of six people, the first one getting kicked out was the Engi.

 

You're TECHNICALLY right in that "HGH wasn't a thing" until they nerfed grenade range but you're forgetting two important things.

1) 100Nades is like a marketing term. Everyone loved Engineer's quirky super quick burst down grenade build that almost rivaled Warriors when done right (everyone except Anet and non-Engis anyway). So they kept calling everything 100Nades. After the KR nerf, HGH was used in some builds that were called 100Nades but no one was calling those "HGH builds". They just happened to have HGH. The name 100Nades had a lot more clout than HGH and it stuck.

 

2) The grenade range nerf happened in the SAME PATCH as the Conditions rework. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2015-06-23#Condition_Updates

The two changes don't exist in a vacuum. What happened to HGH to make it "a thing" wasn't simply that grenades were "worse", but that there were now new avenues for damage that weren't spamming grenades. And that was a very positive thing to hear for a lot of people who were complaining about carpal tunnel over having to spam grenades to play.

 

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"Ardid.7203" said:

> How does the current condi cleanse capacity of the Engie to other Professions? Do we have a comparable baseline, a similar number of tools, do we pay the same costs? Do we have synergy with other aspects of the Engie if we build for cleanse? Which are the Core Engie options now?

 

It's hard to compare with other professions, but our baseline prior to this patch was never in the "amazing" condi cleanse territory. Prior to this patch, you only needed one traitline (alchemy) to have mostly effective condi removal in PvP, in addition to good defensive traits. With this latest change... you need alchemy for defensive traits, and you need inventions for good condi cleanse.

 

A huge chunk of PvP builds prior to the change had 1, 2, or even 3, elixirs in their rotation due to the condi cleanse functionality combined with their utility and HGH. By removing condi cleanse on them, all elixir's functionalities have decreased in value, as have elixir gun and mortar kit.

 

In return, anticorrosion plating removes condis on protection application. Core engineer doesn't apply protection without specific traits (Advanced Turrets, Over Shield), which means a direct nerf to core engineer's ability to condi cleanse. Med gyro's toolbelt applies 5 stacks of protection (equivalent of 5 cleanses) and Hard Light Arena applies 8 or 12 stacks of protection (equivalent of 8 or 12 cleanses). Instead of cleanses distributed evenly throughout several skills like before, the cleanses are now heavily focused on a single skill or two.

 

In other words, prior to this patch:

 

* All engi specs had access to good condi cleanse, distributed evenly amongst most of our skills.

* Elixirs and elixir gun were extremely valuable in PvP.

 

After the patch:

 

* The cleanses are lumped into one or two skills instead of distributed evenly. In order to benefit from the new trait, must take inventions instead of alchemy, or run both trait lines (giving up on damage).

* Core engi must make sacrifices for equivalent condi cleanse (over shield, advanced turrets, or relying upon elixir C).

* Scrapper changes out healing turret for med gyro to get good condi cleanse (slight improvement in cleanse, decrease in healing).

* Holo changes out elixir gun for hard light arena to get good condi cleanse (gives up stunbreak for more condi cleanses).

* Elixirs and elixir gun hold less value overall, with not a whole lot that fits in the lurch.

 

Very clearly it's an overall nerf -- either take more damage and do the same damage you did before, or take the same damage you did before and deal less damage.

[Ardid.7203]

Ok, good summary. For clarity, I was trying to isolate ONLY cleansing strats.

Does Alchemy still have ANY value in cleansing?

If not, then the question, IMO, will be not what we are losing with Alchemy, but what are we winning with Inventions. (Because Alchemy turns optional for cleanse builds).

 

Obviously all of this is very abstract. I'm just trying to isolate the understandable "defense" of Alchemy from the equation, for a while. (I can't clearly see the changes as nerfs or buffs if Alchemy's use is continuously interfering with the other lines contribution)

[Anthony.7260]

I been playing engineer for 5 years let me tell you engineer is in a horrible state.

 

For starters (and min max reasons) alchemy was only need (1 traitline) to provide your defensive cleansing needs and you could go more damage with firearms and explosives or utility with scrapper holo tools.

 

Now you need 2 traitlines (alchemy and inventions) to get the same amount of cleansing and you lose 1 free trait-lines to be able to push more damage utility or get your new weapon (scrapper and holosmith)

 

@"coglin.1496" you must be a new player to the engineer class.

 

I admire your energy to build different builds and try to be all unique and smart and sound like a pro. But you need more experience before you can really give advice.

 

Engineer is the worst profession in the game. We are only good in 5 man duels and have the least amount of players. Over 5 years anet has nerf more stuff than buffed stuff and anet refuse to make engineer over powered (core spec). Holosmith and scrapper got buffed because heart of thorns and path of fire expansions need to be sold more. Anet needs that cash.

 

And alchemy. This is my experience ok so bear with me -

 

In spvp and wvw pvp hidden flask is used as a buff at 75% and elixir s at 25% is a save (unless you have strong condis on you) and HGH is good for might stacking. THe trait where it would remove 1 condi per elixir was so power - would make cleansing elixir cure all 7 condis and morter shell water was classified as an elixir (water elixir shell) and the elixir gun had lots of elixir spells too.

 

The fact is - engineer will never be viable in world versus world zerg groups. Engineer is good 1v1 and small party fights like spvp and roaming squads. They can never support 6 + people with anything. Guardians have aegis stability and strong healing.

 

Engineer is not a good solo roamer either. Engineer is mostly a support dps in 5 man parties. They are VERY good in fractals.

 

Oh yea that scrapper trait was nerfed SO HARD. LOL haha yea feelsbadman. Used to give 60 toughness per damage taken and a perm uptime 20% condi damage reduction. NOW it only gives you 20% condi damage reduction when you have barrier up. Sad time.

 

Drunk engineer was nerfed hard too.

 

The reason people loved alchemy as their main 1 traitline is because it was strong and useful and provided build options. Now you need inventions and alchemy to combo the clenasings while losing 1 line of traits = a nerf.

 

Don't worry guys. When chaith gets here he will give his mighty wisdom @"Chaith.8256" show us the way master. Show us how to adapt.

[Ghos.1326]

> @"Anthony.7260" said:

> I been playing engineer for 5 years let me tell you engineer is in a horrible state.

>

> For starters (and min max reasons) alchemy was only need (1 traitline) to provide your defensive cleansing needs and you could go more damage with firearms and explosives or utility with scrapper holo tools.

>

> Now you need 2 traitlines (alchemy and inventions) to get the same amount of cleansing and you lose 1 free trait-lines to be able to push more damage utility or get your new weapon (scrapper and holosmith)

>

> @"coglin.1496" you must be a new player to the engineer class.

>

> I admire your energy to build different builds and try to be all unique and smart and sound like a pro. But you need more experience before you can really give advice.

>

> Engineer is the worst profession in the game. We are only good in 5 man duels and have the least amount of players. Over 5 years anet has nerf more stuff than buffed stuff and anet refuse to make engineer over powered (core spec). Holosmith and scrapper got buffed because heart of thorns and path of fire expansions need to be sold more. Anet needs that cash.

>

> And alchemy. This is my experience ok so bear with me -

>

> In spvp and wvw pvp hidden flask is used as a buff at 75% and elixir s at 25% is a save (unless you have strong condis on you) and HGH is good for might stacking. THe trait where it would remove 1 condi per elixir was so power - would make cleansing elixir cure all 7 condis and morter shell water was classified as an elixir (water elixir shell) and the elixir gun had lots of elixir spells too.

>

> The fact is - engineer will never be viable in world versus world zerg groups. Engineer is good 1v1 and small party fights like spvp and roaming squads. They can never support 6 + people with anything. Guardians have aegis stability and strong healing.

>

> Engineer is not a good solo roamer either. Engineer is mostly a support dps in 5 man parties. They are VERY good in fractals.

>

> Oh yea that scrapper trait was nerfed SO HARD. LOL haha yea feelsbadman. Used to give 60 toughness per damage taken and a perm uptime 20% condi damage reduction. NOW it only gives you 20% condi damage reduction when you have barrier up. Sad time.

>

> Drunk engineer was nerfed hard too.

>

> The reason people loved alchemy as their main 1 traitline is because it was strong and useful and provided build options. Now you need inventions and alchemy to combo the clenasings while losing 1 line of traits = a nerf.

>

> Don't worry guys. When chaith gets here he will give his mighty wisdom @"Chaith.8256" show us the way master. Show us how to adapt.

 

In my opinion Alchemy was too strong, hence why people always took it. It was Alchemy or bust pretty much, and this change got rid of that.

I theorycrafted a build that is a god in cleansing condis. It does lack in damage, but why does a supprt/bunker need to also have damage in order to be viable? This tidbit of information is what is wrong with the game to begin with: the lines that make up a role's descriptions is blurred. badly.

Example, a profession that specs into being a bunker suddenly is now a bunker and has high damage and has high team support. No tradeoffs. (druid is a great example of this)

We know that right now, because of this fact, druid is a strong 1v1+support+bunker build and can't be killed unless you send 3 people, or 2, one having decent damage and the other having high burst (spellbreaker + thief).

No one build should provide any profession to excel in more than one specific role. I am all for a build that causes a profession to excel at one role and perform another decently, but to be good at it all is what is breaking the game currently.

With the build i crafted, you give up some damage, but it takes a couple players to kill you. It's very survivable and can condi cleanse like a mofo.

[Klypto.1703]

Well this is my take on it all the conditions design worked in gw1 because it was mostly a degen based system and was balanced but they have no handle on any balance for these. Sure you can use all those things that covert them to boons but all that does is keep the process going for necros. So all you get is ppl playing necros and nothing else. They might as well just delete every class but necro because that is what the game is coming too.

[Tinnel.4369]

> @"Anthony.7260" said:

> how to adapt.

 

Most valuable words in the whole thread. Ultimately, it's adapt or quit, same it's always been, eh?

 

Anecdotally, of course, I find Inventions and Alchemy working quite well with both Holosmith and Scrapper. Making both boon machines, Scourge killers, and standing up well to burst/vuln stacking classes by auto eliminating things like Vulnerability and Weakness.

 

You still retain the option to drop one of these for a damage buffing trait line (the worthwhile and synergy's of which are another topic of debate) and still retain some level of cleanse through Inventions or Alchemy coupled with what we've always had in the form of Healing Turret, Elixir C, etc.

 

I stopped playing Holosmith because the cleanse was arguably abysmal without Elixir C and even then it wasn't going to keep up with Scourge's relentless application. Now I can play Holosmith with the exact same gear stats as before, but with sw/sh and Hard Light Arena, delivering the same amount of damage, but with more sustain.

 

Scrapper has kill ability (on anything it can actually catch) while being practically condition immune.

 

Both offer a lot to small group play now.

 

Face tanking Scourges and feasting on their tears or chuckling as a burst Mesmer unloads and has to reset while scratching their head is a refreshing feeling in WvW.