The state of PvP (after the 6/2/2018 balance patch)

[andyhens.4172]

Doesn't need to be perfect, just needs to not be kitten awful. Like perhaps having more than 10 mins spent on it.

 

Making more gamemodes is going to do exactly the opposite. We have 2 modes at tho mo, one which honestly isn't played, so you only have to work with one gamemode in mind. Add more, all you do is add more problems.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Scourge nerf really only affected bad players and corruption. Mediocre or better players who know how to play blood sage still do tons of damage and actually got a survivability buff.

 

Instead of FB + PoC Scourge it's just Druid + Blood Scourge. Then Holosmith/Mirage/Spellbreaker.

 

Meta barely changed at all. Anet doesn't know how to balance sPvP plain and simple.

 

 

[Velimere.7685]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> Scourge nerf really only affected bad players and corruption. Mediocre or better players who know how to play blood sage still do tons of damage and actually got a survivability buff.

>

> Instead of FB + PoC Scourge it's just Druid + Blood Scourge. Then Holosmith/Mirage/Spellbreaker.

>

> Meta barely changed at all. Anet doesn't know how to balance sPvP plain and simple.

>

>

 

Elementalist and Revenant could certainly use some love.

[BurrTheKing.8571]

It seems like the real issue with Spellbreaker is more down to Endure and Defy Pain than the SB itself. If they made the skills dramatically reduce damage rather than outright make it 0 it would be much easier to focus them down. It would still be good 1v1 but that's fine since it is a team game mode. They need to rework every skill that functions like this in addition to lowering damage across the board. Druid would also be way easier to kill if signet didn't reduce damage to 0 as well.

 

Amulets just need to become either good at one thing or highly mediocre at multiple, not a combo of good damage and sustain.

[pah.4931]

> @"andyhens.4172" said:

> Doesn't need to be perfect, just needs to not be kitten awful. Like perhaps having more than 10 mins spent on it.

>

> Making more gamemodes is going to do exactly the opposite. We have 2 modes at tho mo, one which honestly isn't played, so you only have to work with one gamemode in mind. Add more, all you do is add more problems.

 

You're not thinking it through correctly. You are assuming the status quo would remain the same, just with m ore game modes.

 

But imagine if the random queue had a chance to get a larger 10v10 capture the flag or a 15v15 GvG or a 3v3 Deathmatch, as well as some of the 5v5 conquest maps. If class swapping was disabled, all of a sudden a profession that dominates in one won't dominate in others (e.g., a scourge in capture the flag might not do as well as in conquest).

 

All of a sudden, balance is easier because there isn't just one game mode with one (basic) win condition. When there are more types of games, different professions and builds have a chance to shine. And games will become more dynamic and less about "chasing the meta"...

[Marxx.5021]

_Scourge shades have long been a pain point in PvP and WvW with their rapid corruption and few tells for players to spot. So we decided that power mesmer clones become the new pain point in PvP and WvW with high shatter burst and few tells for players to spot._

 

That's not balancing.

[andyhens.4172]

> @"pah.4931" said:

> You're not thinking it through correctly. You are assuming the status quo would remain the same, just with m ore game modes.

>

> But imagine if the random queue had a chance to get a larger 10v10 capture the flag or a 15v15 GvG or a 3v3 Deathmatch, as well as some of the 5v5 conquest maps. If class swapping was disabled, all of a sudden a profession that dominates in one won't dominate in others (e.g., a scourge in capture the flag might not do as well as in conquest).

>

> All of a sudden, balance is easier because there isn't just one game mode with one (basic) win condition. When there are more types of games, different professions and builds have a chance to shine. And games will become more dynamic and less about "chasing the meta"...

 

Wow, I'm the one not thinking it through correctly? Adding more gametypes opens the door for more imbalance, it's as simple as that. Look at what happened with Spirit Watch when it was first released. Remember how crazy being able to RTL with the orb was?

 

I don't know about you, but I prefer to queue for the gametype I want and not a random selector, hell map voting is bad enough in that respect. If I want to play conquest, I queue only for conquest, if I want to play stronghold (lol) then I queue only for that.]

 

Edit: balance doesn't need to be easier, it just needs more than 10seconds of thought putting into it. we all know where the problem points are.

[pah.4931]

> @"andyhens.4172" said:

> > @"pah.4931" said:

> > You're not thinking it through correctly. You are assuming the status quo would remain the same, just with m ore game modes.

> >

> > But imagine if the random queue had a chance to get a larger 10v10 capture the flag or a 15v15 GvG or a 3v3 Deathmatch, as well as some of the 5v5 conquest maps. If class swapping was disabled, all of a sudden a profession that dominates in one won't dominate in others (e.g., a scourge in capture the flag might not do as well as in conquest).

> >

> > All of a sudden, balance is easier because there isn't just one game mode with one (basic) win condition. When there are more types of games, different professions and builds have a chance to shine. And games will become more dynamic and less about "chasing the meta"...

>

> Wow, I'm the one not thinking it through correctly? Adding more gametypes opens the door for more imbalance, it's as simple as that. Look at what happened with Spirit Watch when it was first released. Remember how crazy being able to RTL with the orb was?

>

> I don't know about you, but I prefer to queue for the gametype I want and not a random selector, hell map voting is bad enough in that respect. If I want to play conquest, I queue only for conquest, if I want to play stronghold (lol) then I queue only for that.]

>

> Edit: balance doesn't need to be easier, it just needs more than 10seconds of thought putting into it. we all know where the problem points are.

 

Against my better judgement, I am going to continue interacting with you.

 

You don't seem to really understand big picture stuff, it seems. You are mired in the RIGHT NOW AS IS mindset. Balance isn't as simple as "everyone does comparable damage and comparable support and comparable sustain" ... we currently have NINE professions, each with a wide range of "core" builds and two elite-based builds. That's 27 base builds that all play very different from each other -- not counting support or bunker or condi or power builds within a single base build (base build here being defined as "Named" ... i.e., Necro, Reaper, Scourge are three base builds). Why bring this up? Because, if you're an intelligent person, you know that the classes will NEVER be balanced. There will always be one class that's the most mobile, one class that does the most AoE damage, one that can sustain the most damage, etc. This ain't a shooter. It's an MMO and you can't have class distinction and flavor without a good amount of imbalance at any given time (every MMO I have every played, and it's a lot, has had cycles of nerfs and buffs and equal balance is never achieved). So if we can both agree there will always be a certain level of imbalance, we can move onto why ONE game mode is such a problem and mistake.

 

Having just one type of map (Conquest) means that inevitably, some classes are going to ALWAYS overpower other classes in that mode, because the rules of the game are all the same. There are three points, spread out, that need to be held to earn points. So when something like the Scourge comes along, in a game mode that forces players to play within small circles, obviously a Scourge is going to do well. Also, OP bunker builds are going to always be meta if they can 2v1 on a point (or even 3v1). A slippery, mobile class will do well, too.

 

Now, if you create a game mode like Capture the Flag that MIGHT be one of the maps that pops up among many types, then all of a sudden the meta shifts. In fact, we've created multiple "metas" making it almost impossible that the same 4 builds will absolutely dominate every time. In CtF, new rules can be in place that change everything. A build that might have been less than optimal in Conquest now shines in CtF. Same goes for a deathmatch or a 5-node map, etc.

 

You can't refute my argument by assuming the new map will be poorly designed. That's a fallacy. In any theoretical debate (which is what you stumbled into) you have to assume the maps will be well-designed. I mean... you laugh at Stronghold (which is not without its faults) but you absolutely cannot deny the fact that completely different builds can excel in that game than what is the "meta" in Conquest. It's undeniable. That is the PRINCIPLE behind asking for modes. Obviously it goes without saying that those modes each need to be fun and well-designed int heir own right.

 

Before the Feb. 6 "balance patch" ... had there been more than one (bad) game mode -- Conquest -- we would already have had relative balance. A lot of classes can do a lot of cool things. But since every single map throws people on points to throw down, the same ones will always dominate.

[KeoLegend.5132]

Keep playing the sub-par Power Mirage while my Power Chrono feast on all other mezmahs

[Dostymen.1269]

> @"Psilence.2859" said:

> As the OP pointed out, there's a common theme that runs through the list of rarely seen builds... outclassed by Spellbreaker. A great deal of build diversity is suppressed because many physical damage builds just straight up have no chance in fight against a decent Spellbreaker. Not "will probably lose"... they literally have no hope of killing Spellbreaker 1v1 because Spellbreaker is still overtuned in it's low cooldown counter/block/immunity rotation and ability to wear an amulet with both great damage and high armor. It's current survivability against everything that isn't specifically high condi damage + boonstrip is just too high. It's fine to have good 1v1 classes, or bunker classes that can hold out 1v2 or even 1v3 for a while, but not as long as SB currently can, and not while still being able to dish out very high damage and be hyper mobile.

>

> It's a similar issue to why Druid's sustain via stealths and regen feels like there's little counterplay, but with considerably more damage due to SB's sustain not requiring healing power, and having high enough base HP to use Demolisher's amulet, instead of Mender's or Avatar's. At least fighting a Druid, they can't contest the point while in stealth, whereas an SB still contests even while blocking or damage immune. I'm glad Anet finally got around to nerfing some of the overtuned condi builds, but SB's deserve similar treatment since those classes were the only thing holding it in check.

 

Nice that we agree.

[Dostymen.1269]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Dostymen.1269" said:

> > Oh boy, when I saw those changes I was like "Oh yes!", then I played 3 games and I was like "Oh kitten yeah!" but then I played more games and the sweet taste of not getting kitten by a scourge + firebrand combo turned sour. Who would have thought that fixing one problem (scourge + firebrand combo) would create 3 more (that being spellbreaker, druid and mesmer).

> >

> > I'll try to go through what we are looking at in this balance patch and what would I change. I'll try to tell you what builds are in the mix and what they are but remember, I play a power burst build on EU around 1600 SR so our opinions will differ.

> >

> > Let's just look at the build that are being played:

> >

> > **Spellbreaker:**

> > This is the big winner. This build had very restricted use in PvP beacause of the scourge + firebrand combo that dominated mid, it just didn't have enough resistance to get through the cancer. Now that it is gone, this buid shines. It has big mobility, damage, damage mitigation and regenration. It has basiclly everything other than range pressure. It more or less beats every power build in the game so you need a ranged condi build to fight it and that is with scourge being less popular harder and harder to do. Kite builds won't cut it either cause there is only so much space to kite in a PvP map. This build needs to be nerfed somewhere, this should be a build that dominates WvW zerg fights with its boon removal but now it is a much better warrior with a one more block and the theme of the spec (boon removal) is just an added bonus. I would suggest giving power builds more windows to damage it because it can maintain near invuln with its full counter, 2 endure pains, shield stance, evade on greatsword and dodges between all of that for almost 15 seconds while it is dealing 4k crits to you and regenerating like crazy and shift more of the power into the boon removal.

> >

> > **Druid:**

> > I have only one question for you. Why is this build still around? This build is the definition of unfun. If you are having problems with falling asleep just play this build because it is designed to make you sleep. This was supposed to be a support build, like firebrand, but in reality it is a nasty bunker build that is hard to even 2v1 (it is literally un1v1able). It just sits on a node defending it and hoping to draw at least 3 people in and hold them as long as it can. If you are 2v1ing it you are basiclly losing at other nodes. This needs to be gone, there is no fun at hitting it with your perfect combo, getting it to 25% health and just watch it press F5 and heal to full and god forbid you have no sustain casue it will actually kill you. Not mentioning you need only to target and press F1 to kill some builds (yeah, talking about you smokescale).

> >

> > **Mesmer:**

> > This is a tough one. The changes to phantasms were massive so there isn't a "meta" build as of yet. But there are 3 floating around.

> > _Ineptitude:_ Condi kite build, annoying but effective in the hands of a good player. Don't see any problems with it just because it isn't widely used.

> > _Werid boon spam well chrono:_ Powerful mid build that can survive anything while buffing all of your teammates. It gets shut down by spellbreaker tho so I don't see it being that good.

> > _Power shatter:_ This is the scariest one. There was a problem with this in the past but it always phased out and it seems it is comming back. The worst thing that can happen to you is getting a 20k burst out of nowhere and that is what this build usualy does. With the phantasms doing a shitton of burst damage now we really need a bigger reaction time window for the phantasm burst or the shatter.

> >

> > **Scourge:**

> > The literal scourge of solo queue. This build dominated PvP since the PoF launch but the devs have finaly managed to balance it. I really think that scourge is in a good place right now (still a very powerful and potent build), the visual effects might ruin the zerg or mid fight experience but now you actually know when to dodge when fighting a scourge (you couldn't see kitten in the mid fight anyway). Although I would say scourge is in a bad place design-wise. I always thought it was supposed to be a condi support spec (devs have said it themselves) but it always felt like it was a dps spec and the barrier was something on top, a bonus (just like with spellbreaker). I would balance it by shifting its condi capabilities into more barrier application and boon corrupt but the changes the devs made will do.

> >

> > **Firebrand:**

> > This is the build that made scourge that much powerful and I have to give it to Anet, this was exactly what they said it will be, although enormously overtuned. And they finally brought it down to a good level. Don't get me wrong, the build is still very good it is just not broken. Props to you Anet.

> >

> > **Holosmith:**

> > The best elite spec they have ever done. Period. And it is well balanced too. You could argue that minesweeper was too strong but that was nerfed and it was a minesweeper problem not a holosmith problem. The spec is so much fun to play and play against.

> >

> > **D/P (S/P) thief:**

> > Nothing new here. The kite potential in PvP maps makes it fairly balanced.

> >

> > **Hammer guard:**

> > Ugh...so boring, but it will get you places so I guess. It is an eazy build to pick up. Nothing special. Outclassed by spellbraker.

> >

> > **Meditrapper DH:**

> > I mean, it was around for a long time, it is good but outclassed by spellbreaker.

> >

> > **Scrapper:**

> > I see it pop up from time to time after the buff so I guess it is on a slow return. I don't mind having scrapper in the meta, it is an eazy build to play and it doesn't really have anything kitten in its kit. But it will probably get shut down by spellbreaker 1v1.

> >

> > **Power reaper:**

> > I wish this was the spellbreaker of today's meta. I mean, the build deserves it. It was played condi for 2 years thanks to Anet and when it is finally back to power it gets outclassed by spellbreaker in every single way. Quite sad, really, because it is so much fun to play.

> >

> > **Berserker:**

> > We had 2 years of this kitten. Please don't ever come back with your skull grinder kitten.

> >

> > **Revenant:**

> > _Core/Herald:_ You see those pop up in one or two games but the problem is that rev is just meh. It dies too quickly on mid and it can't beat druid and spellbreaker on close/far. It needs a small buff because it is extremely potent if you know what the kitten you are doing.

> > _Renegade:_ Oh man, this whole spec is just underpowered...and it is a shame too, the whole theme of the spec is so cool. This needs a heavy buff, the one in the patch wasn't enough.

> >

> > **Soulbeast:**

> > I see some of them here and there and although it is a cool playstyle and it requires a lot of though (not the longbow sniper tho), it is basiclly a burstable druid. It is played by people that are too tired of playing druid. I would love to see some more of this spec but druid is just better.

> >

> > **Deadeye:**

> > A rare sight this one BUT not because it is bad....no, no. Rifle is really hard to use, it is a different playstyle to thief and a lot of people can't get used to it. But if you do, oh man...the things you can do. The build is really fun, does insane damage and is really fun to watch. I recommend this fully.

> >

> > **Weaver:**

> > The elementalist class itself is in a bad spot and that transcends to weaver. It is just subpar and the lack of ANY elite skill isn't helping. Playing the sustain version or the fresh air version won't really make a difference. It needs some buffs for sure.

> >

> > **Tempest:**

> > Outclassed by firebrand, nothing more to say. We got enough of that build in HoT so let's enjoy it's departure.

> >

> > That is for the classes, I'll point out some of problems in PvP just for a bonus:

> >

> > **AFKers:**

> > This happend to me so many times...lose the first mid fight -> AFK, don't wanna swap to firebrand -> AFK. It is so frustrating and it feels that people are just not being punished for it. I feel that it is becomming more and more of a problem.

> >

> > **RNG pet hard CC:**

> > Cmon Anet, that should be on the F2, this is so bad to play and play against and it can usualy just decide the fight. Hard CC is a serious playmaking thing, it shouldn't be decided by RNG.

> > Just move everything to the F2 and we'll be alright.

> >

> > So this is it, now go and discus in the comments, I will be happy to see your thought.

> > I surely made some mistakes and forgot something so I apologize about that but I tried to make it not too long so anyone could read it.

> > So have fun a see you in the comments.

> >

> > Dosty

>

> Tl;dr nerf spellbreaker i suppose.

 

Yes, give more windows where power builds can damage it. You forgot about druids and mesmer tho.

[Shirlias.8104]

All condition builds could be simply fixed removing all necks which give more than 560 condition damage ( forcing those classes to deal hybrid dmg and not full condition ).

Firebrand could be simply fixed removing Magi ( and eventually mender ) Neck, which gives more than 560 healing power.

 

Btw the changes to Scourges are definitely something.

Not the solution of course, but we are going in the right direction.

[Tomiyou.3790]

Excellent write on the whole meta right now, wish you took a month before writing it tho.

 

Out of all condi builds only scourge is still a problem right now, not by numbers tho, by design (AOE boon corrupt with lots of cover condis??). Imo, people are just overreacting right now, as meta is starting to settle.

[Uriel.6310]

As a tempest main who doesnt have PoF yet, I am reduced to nothing for not having the expansion and its not fair. I can clearly see why some ppl think of the expansion releases = pay to win, because if you dont have it, oh fucking well... you gonna get trashed on by classes much stronger. As a Ele, and what I thought most wizard classes played like (class cannon/high risk high reward), it takes much more effort than lets say a deadeye who pops out of stealth with 25 might and one shots me then back into stealth like no ones business. So I can only imagine how it feels like playing core Ele. So im just gonna step away from the game, I guess gw2 gonna cater to who talking with the most money and clearly its loyal fans who only care about balance for their own class rather than the entire game.

[OriOri.8724]

Yea, Anet kind of went a bit overboard with the mesmer changes. I do think that in the long run some changes that would be good for the class would be to remove shatter storm, and then change phantasm skills so that a clone is generated when the phantasm skill is used. Yes, this would allow for quicker bursts, but it would also limit how many clones you can get from phantasm skills. Eliminating the ability of a single weapon skill to provide 2 clones, or more.