OriOri.8724 Posted March 21, 2018 Author Share Posted March 21, 2018 Another suggestion I've seen that I like is to remove Mirage's ability to dodge while stunned without EM, and make it so that EM no longer stunbreaks, but allows us to dodge during a stun, thus avoiding being hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeteCommander.4937 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > @"Patrick.2987" said: > > Exhaustion is implemented to reduce dodgespam. Sure you can put it on any profession with more or less impact. And the dodge on stun and ress / stomp is not the only thing mirage offers. You have alot of vigor, a new weapon, casts while dodging, dodge without moving quite some access to stealth. On the other hand you could change evade in terms of not contesting while evading in general to reduce evadechains by certain builds since it offers the same advantage as for example elixier invuln on engi. This way maybe people would have to use their brain when and what to actually evade on node. > > Mirage doesn't have dodgespam. It brings very little vigor compared to what core mesmer can give out, no flat endurance regen (which chrono offers, but not mirage), and only has 2 dodges. Mirage has evadespam, by design. Mesmer's already had a ton of evades, and mirage gave them even more with mirrors. And exhaustion does not one thing to reduec evadespam, because it can only trigger off a dodge, and then only if you stunbreak. Exhaustion, does not fix the problem. That's why I and others are so against it. We aren't asking for EM to not be nerfed, we are asking for it to be fixed. Exhaustion does nothingto fix it. > > They don't play mes and can't understand this change for mes.They only want to nerf the mes and don't care about this class was destroyed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > Why do you refuse to fix the actual problem with EM by simply removing the stunbreak from it? Why are you so insistent on tacking on exhaustion instead of simply removing the mechanic that is overperforming? > > What about, not to take it if you wish for a no SB elusive mind? > I mean, dodge = 1 condition less is good but maybe not necessarily a must. > > Currently the trait gives you exhaust only if a CC is removed, isn't it? > If so, wouldn't be a good trade? > > Or else you would have planned to take the CC and the dps before being able to dodge? The problem is stunbreak on dodge removes all forms of good play from an enemy landing a CC well. Sure dodges aren’t infinite but Mesmer already has some good low cool down stunbreaks they can use first then 2 dodges, then invuln then can probably use a stun break utility again as it’s off cool down. Stunbreak on dodge is too strong, it shouldn’t be a thing. Also @"Patrick.2987" look at the rest of the traits in mirage, it’s hardly a particularly outstanding trait line, not being able to dodge while stomping would make mirage a really poor spec. Only infinite horizon and possibly desert distortion are particularly good especially now condition Mesmer has become mostly torment and mirage needs clones for its condition damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > Also @"Patrick.2987" look at the rest of the traits in mirage, it’s hardly a particularly outstanding trait line, not being able to dodge while stomping would make mirage a really poor spec. Only infinite horizon and possibly desert distortion are particularly good especially now condition Mesmer has become mostly torment and mirage needs clones for its condition damage. Sadly tru , that would be empty trait line that gives you literally nothing and ambush wouldnt be usable at all ,at this point mesmer need entirely new elite spec and everything they have done will go to waste (which they wont do). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Shirlias.8104" said: >Probably i didn't explain myself in a proper way... I meant that if you remove SB it will remain a "lose 1 condi on dodge" cd. >Nice indeed, but not broken or a must like the current one. Only 1 condition would be weak and thief(daredevil,non grandmaster trait) alrdy have that trait which is work slightly differently and better than just remove 1 condition while you wasted entire dodge.(Any evade remove 1 condition 1 sec icd ,if someone forgot ) Like mirage traits that are like... joke ... regen soften damaging condis duration 20%, weak... look at ranger 33% damage reduction while under protection which is way stronger . Making a clone while using deception skill IF you alrdy had 1 clone , thats super weak comapred to DE . Dodge gives 1s protection ? Thats a copy of ranger trait that gives him/pet protection on dodge which is 2 seconds base. I dont understand people passion over Desert Distortion because its need clones and triggered only on F4 activation which is 42/50 seconds cd .Most of time when you use f4 its when you got suddenly spiked etc and have like 0-1 clones so 1 mirror which summon somewhere not that great imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > Why do you refuse to fix the actual problem with EM by simply removing the stunbreak from it? Why are you so insistent on tacking on exhaustion instead of simply removing the mechanic that is overperforming? > > > > What about, not to take it if you wish for a no SB elusive mind? > > I mean, dodge = 1 condition less is good but maybe not necessarily a must. > > > > Currently the trait gives you exhaust only if a CC is removed, isn't it? > > If so, wouldn't be a good trade? > > > > Or else you would have planned to take the CC and the dps before being able to dodge? > > The problem is stunbreak on dodge removes all forms of good play from an enemy landing a CC well. Sure dodges aren’t infinite but Mesmer already has some good low cool down stunbreaks they can use first then 2 dodges, then invuln then can probably use a stun break utility again as it’s off cool down. > > Stunbreak on dodge is too strong, it shouldn’t be a thing. I do agree. Probably i didn't explain myself in a proper way... I meant that if you remove SB it will remain a "lose 1 condi on dodge" cd. Nice indeed, but not broken or a must like the current one. Also, if you are under cc and you dodge you get exhaustion, ok, but also you remove your cc with a single dodge. It's too convenient. That's what i was talking ( the complainet about a dodge which allows you to attack with a stronger attack and also remove a condi an a cc are a joke ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > Why do you refuse to fix the actual problem with EM by simply removing the stunbreak from it? Why are you so insistent on tacking on exhaustion instead of simply removing the mechanic that is overperforming? > > > > > > What about, not to take it if you wish for a no SB elusive mind? > > > I mean, dodge = 1 condition less is good but maybe not necessarily a must. > > > > > > Currently the trait gives you exhaust only if a CC is removed, isn't it? > > > If so, wouldn't be a good trade? > > > > > > Or else you would have planned to take the CC and the dps before being able to dodge? > > > > The problem is stunbreak on dodge removes all forms of good play from an enemy landing a CC well. Sure dodges aren’t infinite but Mesmer already has some good low cool down stunbreaks they can use first then 2 dodges, then invuln then can probably use a stun break utility again as it’s off cool down. > > > > Stunbreak on dodge is too strong, it shouldn’t be a thing. > > I do agree. > > Probably i didn't explain myself in a proper way... I meant that if you remove SB it will remain a "lose 1 condi on dodge" cd. > Nice indeed, but not broken or a must like the current one. > > Also, if you are under cc and you dodge you get exhaustion, ok, but also you remove your cc with a single dodge. It's too convenient. > That's what i was talking ( the complainet about a dodge which allows you to attack with a stronger attack and also remove a condi an a cc are a joke ). Sorry my bad, again, replying in the morning without coffee. Let this stand as a testament to the power of coffee and having a good hour to wake up. I wonder when other players on other elite specs are going to own up to the number of rediculous things they can do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velimere.7685 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > I, and others, want an honest answer on EM Anet. We warned you about how ridiculously broken it was from the minute it was leaked, before the first beta weekend even. Despite months of warnings and discussions about EM, and mirage in general, you have continued to ignore all of these conversations. > > Now you have finally decided to nerf it, and your solution was exhaustion. Anet, its already been discussed, nearly to death, as to why exhaustion both doesn't fit on mesmer in the first place, but, more importantly, wouldn't actually do anything to stop how ridiculously overpowered EM is, and you know it. In response to all of that, you stayed silent about it and simply lowered the duration of exhaustion applied by EM to 3 seconds instead of 4 when breaking a stun. Despite all of our discussions about how exhaustion doesn't even fix the problem with EM, you doubled down anyway and insisted on adding it to the trait, pretending like that will fix it. > > Why have you refused to acknowledge any of the discussion about EM? I get that you can't respond to all discussions concerning balance, but EM was one of the most broken things ever introduced to the game. And you ignored the discussion on it. > > Why do you refuse to fix the actual problem with EM by simply removing the stunbreak from it? Why are you so insistent on tacking on exhaustion instead of simply removing the mechanic that is overperforming? All they have to do is give it a 10-second recharge so it can only be invoked once every 10 seconds like [Empty Vessel](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Empty_Vessel "Empty Vessel"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace al Thor.6745 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > Why do you refuse to fix the actual problem with EM by simply removing the stunbreak from it? Why are you so insistent on tacking on exhaustion instead of simply removing the mechanic that is overperforming? > > > > > > What about, not to take it if you wish for a no SB elusive mind? > > > I mean, dodge = 1 condition less is good but maybe not necessarily a must. > > > > > > Currently the trait gives you exhaust only if a CC is removed, isn't it? > > > If so, wouldn't be a good trade? > > > > > > Or else you would have planned to take the CC and the dps before being able to dodge? > > > > The problem is stunbreak on dodge removes all forms of good play from an enemy landing a CC well. Sure dodges aren’t infinite but Mesmer already has some good low cool down stunbreaks they can use first then 2 dodges, then invuln then can probably use a stun break utility again as it’s off cool down. > > > > Stunbreak on dodge is too strong, it shouldn’t be a thing. > > I do agree. > > Probably i didn't explain myself in a proper way... I meant that if you remove SB it will remain a "lose 1 condi on dodge" cd. > Nice indeed, but not broken or a must like the current one. > > Also, if you are under cc and you dodge you get exhaustion, ok, but also you remove your cc with a single dodge. It's too convenient. > That's what i was talking ( the complainet about a dodge which allows you to attack with a stronger attack and also remove a condi an a cc are a joke ). While I agree with removing stun break is best leaving it to only remove one condition is... weak in my opinion for a GM. I wouldn’t want to give it a damage reduction like UC because I can already achieve 58% damage reduction which is plenty considering what you’re giving up to achieve it but more would be broken I think. So two condi clear? Mirror on dodge? Idk but stun break needs to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > > Why do you refuse to fix the actual problem with EM by simply removing the stunbreak from it? Why are you so insistent on tacking on exhaustion instead of simply removing the mechanic that is overperforming? > > > > > > > > What about, not to take it if you wish for a no SB elusive mind? > > > > I mean, dodge = 1 condition less is good but maybe not necessarily a must. > > > > > > > > Currently the trait gives you exhaust only if a CC is removed, isn't it? > > > > If so, wouldn't be a good trade? > > > > > > > > Or else you would have planned to take the CC and the dps before being able to dodge? > > > > > > The problem is stunbreak on dodge removes all forms of good play from an enemy landing a CC well. Sure dodges aren’t infinite but Mesmer already has some good low cool down stunbreaks they can use first then 2 dodges, then invuln then can probably use a stun break utility again as it’s off cool down. > > > > > > Stunbreak on dodge is too strong, it shouldn’t be a thing. > > > > I do agree. > > > > Probably i didn't explain myself in a proper way... I meant that if you remove SB it will remain a "lose 1 condi on dodge" cd. > > Nice indeed, but not broken or a must like the current one. > > > > Also, if you are under cc and you dodge you get exhaustion, ok, but also you remove your cc with a single dodge. It's too convenient. > > That's what i was talking ( the complainet about a dodge which allows you to attack with a stronger attack and also remove a condi an a cc are a joke ). > > While I agree with removing stun break is best leaving it to only remove one condition is... weak in my opinion for a GM. I wouldn’t want to give it a damage reduction like UC because I can already achieve 58% damage reduction which is plenty considering what you’re giving up to achieve it but more would be broken I think. So two condi clear? Mirror on dodge? Idk but stun break needs to go. MAaaaaaaaaaaate , stop stealing my stuff, i wrote about it ABOOOOOOOOOVE (That it weak and compared it to UC, like rest of mirage traits are weak copies of other traits) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math.5123 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > > > Why do you refuse to fix the actual problem with EM by simply removing the stunbreak from it? Why are you so insistent on tacking on exhaustion instead of simply removing the mechanic that is overperforming? > > > > > > > > > > What about, not to take it if you wish for a no SB elusive mind? > > > > > I mean, dodge = 1 condition less is good but maybe not necessarily a must. > > > > > > > > > > Currently the trait gives you exhaust only if a CC is removed, isn't it? > > > > > If so, wouldn't be a good trade? > > > > > > > > > > Or else you would have planned to take the CC and the dps before being able to dodge? > > > > > > > > The problem is stunbreak on dodge removes all forms of good play from an enemy landing a CC well. Sure dodges aren’t infinite but Mesmer already has some good low cool down stunbreaks they can use first then 2 dodges, then invuln then can probably use a stun break utility again as it’s off cool down. > > > > > > > > Stunbreak on dodge is too strong, it shouldn’t be a thing. > > > > > > I do agree. > > > > > > Probably i didn't explain myself in a proper way... I meant that if you remove SB it will remain a "lose 1 condi on dodge" cd. > > > Nice indeed, but not broken or a must like the current one. > > > > > > Also, if you are under cc and you dodge you get exhaustion, ok, but also you remove your cc with a single dodge. It's too convenient. > > > That's what i was talking ( the complainet about a dodge which allows you to attack with a stronger attack and also remove a condi an a cc are a joke ). > > > > While I agree with removing stun break is best leaving it to only remove one condition is... weak in my opinion for a GM. I wouldn’t want to give it a damage reduction like UC because I can already achieve 58% damage reduction which is plenty considering what you’re giving up to achieve it but more would be broken I think. So two condi clear? Mirror on dodge? Idk but stun break needs to go. > > MAaaaaaaaaaaate , stop stealing my stuff, i wrote about it ABOOOOOOOOOVE (That it weak and compared it to UC, like rest of mirage traits are weak copies of other traits) Yet, it's the strongest spec in the game. Mirages traits being "weak" doesn't matter much when they have the luxury of taking a strictly defensive line, aswell as illusions for the extra boons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace al Thor.6745 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > > > Why do you refuse to fix the actual problem with EM by simply removing the stunbreak from it? Why are you so insistent on tacking on exhaustion instead of simply removing the mechanic that is overperforming? > > > > > > > > > > What about, not to take it if you wish for a no SB elusive mind? > > > > > I mean, dodge = 1 condition less is good but maybe not necessarily a must. > > > > > > > > > > Currently the trait gives you exhaust only if a CC is removed, isn't it? > > > > > If so, wouldn't be a good trade? > > > > > > > > > > Or else you would have planned to take the CC and the dps before being able to dodge? > > > > > > > > The problem is stunbreak on dodge removes all forms of good play from an enemy landing a CC well. Sure dodges aren’t infinite but Mesmer already has some good low cool down stunbreaks they can use first then 2 dodges, then invuln then can probably use a stun break utility again as it’s off cool down. > > > > > > > > Stunbreak on dodge is too strong, it shouldn’t be a thing. > > > > > > I do agree. > > > > > > Probably i didn't explain myself in a proper way... I meant that if you remove SB it will remain a "lose 1 condi on dodge" cd. > > > Nice indeed, but not broken or a must like the current one. > > > > > > Also, if you are under cc and you dodge you get exhaustion, ok, but also you remove your cc with a single dodge. It's too convenient. > > > That's what i was talking ( the complainet about a dodge which allows you to attack with a stronger attack and also remove a condi an a cc are a joke ). > > > > While I agree with removing stun break is best leaving it to only remove one condition is... weak in my opinion for a GM. I wouldn’t want to give it a damage reduction like UC because I can already achieve 58% damage reduction which is plenty considering what you’re giving up to achieve it but more would be broken I think. So two condi clear? Mirror on dodge? Idk but stun break needs to go. > > MAaaaaaaaaaaate , stop stealing my stuff, i wrote about it ABOOOOOOOOOVE (That it weak and compared it to UC, like rest of mirage traits are weak copies of other traits) Aww I just woke so must have not seen it XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace al Thor.6745 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > > > > Why do you refuse to fix the actual problem with EM by simply removing the stunbreak from it? Why are you so insistent on tacking on exhaustion instead of simply removing the mechanic that is overperforming? > > > > > > > > > > > > What about, not to take it if you wish for a no SB elusive mind? > > > > > > I mean, dodge = 1 condition less is good but maybe not necessarily a must. > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently the trait gives you exhaust only if a CC is removed, isn't it? > > > > > > If so, wouldn't be a good trade? > > > > > > > > > > > > Or else you would have planned to take the CC and the dps before being able to dodge? > > > > > > > > > > The problem is stunbreak on dodge removes all forms of good play from an enemy landing a CC well. Sure dodges aren’t infinite but Mesmer already has some good low cool down stunbreaks they can use first then 2 dodges, then invuln then can probably use a stun break utility again as it’s off cool down. > > > > > > > > > > Stunbreak on dodge is too strong, it shouldn’t be a thing. > > > > > > > > I do agree. > > > > > > > > Probably i didn't explain myself in a proper way... I meant that if you remove SB it will remain a "lose 1 condi on dodge" cd. > > > > Nice indeed, but not broken or a must like the current one. > > > > > > > > Also, if you are under cc and you dodge you get exhaustion, ok, but also you remove your cc with a single dodge. It's too convenient. > > > > That's what i was talking ( the complainet about a dodge which allows you to attack with a stronger attack and also remove a condi an a cc are a joke ). > > > > > > While I agree with removing stun break is best leaving it to only remove one condition is... weak in my opinion for a GM. I wouldn’t want to give it a damage reduction like UC because I can already achieve 58% damage reduction which is plenty considering what you’re giving up to achieve it but more would be broken I think. So two condi clear? Mirror on dodge? Idk but stun break needs to go. > > > > MAaaaaaaaaaaate , stop stealing my stuff, i wrote about it ABOOOOOOOOOVE (That it weak and compared it to UC, like rest of mirage traits are weak copies of other traits) > > Yet, it's the strongest spec in the game. Mirages traits being "weak" doesn't matter much when they have the luxury of taking a strictly defensive line, aswell as illusions for the extra boons. I disagree. I think Druid is the stongest spec simply because it goes full defense and will win a fight of attrition but using the pet and healing. If you’re playing shatter you aren’t going to take illusions or chaos. It’s Dom/dueling all day long because they both offer damage increases. Condi will take inspiration but atm condi is weaker than power. If you’re playing the magical “perma every boon” build then you’re asking for a power build to come along and eat you. Been there done that. Now, I’m not saying Mesmer is weak. By no means is it. However, what they’ve done to Mesmer should be what they are working on for all classes so that each class has multiple builds available to them. Rather than nerf Mesmer back into preHoT state they need to start buffing certain aspects of all classes. Engi, rev, necro and ele would be where I would start. At the same time they need to nerf boon generation across the board and remove expertise and concentration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > Yet, it's the strongest spec in the game. Mirages traits being "weak" doesn't matter much when they have the luxury of taking a strictly defensive line, aswell as illusions for the extra boons. Entirely carried by CURRENT* EM , s/d thief would want to have a word with strongest spec in game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > > > > > Why do you refuse to fix the actual problem with EM by simply removing the stunbreak from it? Why are you so insistent on tacking on exhaustion instead of simply removing the mechanic that is overperforming? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about, not to take it if you wish for a no SB elusive mind? > > > > > > > I mean, dodge = 1 condition less is good but maybe not necessarily a must. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently the trait gives you exhaust only if a CC is removed, isn't it? > > > > > > > If so, wouldn't be a good trade? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or else you would have planned to take the CC and the dps before being able to dodge? > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is stunbreak on dodge removes all forms of good play from an enemy landing a CC well. Sure dodges aren’t infinite but Mesmer already has some good low cool down stunbreaks they can use first then 2 dodges, then invuln then can probably use a stun break utility again as it’s off cool down. > > > > > > > > > > > > Stunbreak on dodge is too strong, it shouldn’t be a thing. > > > > > > > > > > I do agree. > > > > > > > > > > Probably i didn't explain myself in a proper way... I meant that if you remove SB it will remain a "lose 1 condi on dodge" cd. > > > > > Nice indeed, but not broken or a must like the current one. > > > > > > > > > > Also, if you are under cc and you dodge you get exhaustion, ok, but also you remove your cc with a single dodge. It's too convenient. > > > > > That's what i was talking ( the complainet about a dodge which allows you to attack with a stronger attack and also remove a condi an a cc are a joke ). > > > > > > > > While I agree with removing stun break is best leaving it to only remove one condition is... weak in my opinion for a GM. I wouldn’t want to give it a damage reduction like UC because I can already achieve 58% damage reduction which is plenty considering what you’re giving up to achieve it but more would be broken I think. So two condi clear? Mirror on dodge? Idk but stun break needs to go. > > > > > > MAaaaaaaaaaaate , stop stealing my stuff, i wrote about it ABOOOOOOOOOVE (That it weak and compared it to UC, like rest of mirage traits are weak copies of other traits) > > > > Yet, it's the strongest spec in the game. Mirages traits being "weak" doesn't matter much when they have the luxury of taking a strictly defensive line, aswell as illusions for the extra boons. > > I disagree. I think Druid is the stongest spec simply because it goes full defense and will win a fight of attrition but using the pet and healing. > > If you’re playing shatter you aren’t going to take illusions or chaos. It’s Dom/dueling all day long because they both offer damage increases. Condi will take inspiration but atm condi is weaker than power. If you’re playing the magical “perma every boon” build then you’re asking for a power build to come along and eat you. Been there done that. > > Now, I’m not saying Mesmer is weak. By no means is it. However, what they’ve done to Mesmer should be what they are working on for all classes so that each class has multiple builds available to them. Rather than nerf Mesmer back into preHoT state they need to start buffing certain aspects of all classes. Engi, rev, necro and ele would be where I would start. At the same time they need to nerf boon generation across the board and remove expertise and concentration. I think you’re downplaying the strength of the current chaos, illusions, mirage Mesmer build in PvP at least and I don’t think Mesmer in its current state is close to the gold standard for what classes should aspire to be balanced like. The problem is many people aren’t looking at all the parts. Is bountiful disillusionment (BD) overpowered? Many consider it to be because perma stab OP OP OP, cannot CC the Mesmer at all yadda yadda. However was this trait ever really used that often? Sure in bunker many moons ago but hardly touched since then. Is the chaos line really overpowered for defense? I dunno, it’s a defence line so I’d expect high protection and damage reduction with stab, it seems fitting but has little to no cleanses in the line so won’t help you vs condition builds. So where is the problem with the build? Well what if you corrupt or strip the stab? They just stunbreak with a dodge, this is where we find where the real problem is as elusive mind is removing one of the balancing and counter points of BD while jaunt and elusive mind take care of conditions. What else is too strong on it? The damage, it does quite a lot of damage because it so easily stacks might from the new phantasmal force trait, not only that but the might also buffs phantasm damage a lot too. So maybe the real issue is that Mesmer can pick 1 trait and see a very large damage increase across the board. This is why I say earlier that classes shouldn’t be brought up to Mesmer level more that Mesmer needs some more work doing. If you pick defensive traits you shouldn’t do that much damage however Mesmer can because it has 1 trait pick which really buffs it to such a silly level, technically 2 because the minor in illusions got altered too which gives a 15% damage buff. I said somewhere else, probably Mesmer sub forum that Mesmer damage needs reworks, the traits are all over the place, some buff your damage but not clones/phantasms but affect shatters, others only buff shatters (which is being nerfed to a point where it’s a useless trait almost) while other traits buff phantasms but not the Mesmer to a silly extent while phantasmal force is just a flat out high amount of damage because might and might translating to phantasm buffing. What all this means is it’s very easy to make a build where a singular aspect does high amounts of damage while the rest of the build stays relatively defensive, nerfing elusive mind is a good start but there’s still a lot of work that needs doing to the way Mesmer does damage and how it’s traits interact with skills, shatters and phantams, preferably with a more unified approach. Also nerf superiority complex, that trait is just ridiculous compared to mental anguish and mental anguish hasn’t even received the nerf yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace al Thor.6745 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > > > > > > Why do you refuse to fix the actual problem with EM by simply removing the stunbreak from it? Why are you so insistent on tacking on exhaustion instead of simply removing the mechanic that is overperforming? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about, not to take it if you wish for a no SB elusive mind? > > > > > > > > I mean, dodge = 1 condition less is good but maybe not necessarily a must. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently the trait gives you exhaust only if a CC is removed, isn't it? > > > > > > > > If so, wouldn't be a good trade? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or else you would have planned to take the CC and the dps before being able to dodge? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is stunbreak on dodge removes all forms of good play from an enemy landing a CC well. Sure dodges aren’t infinite but Mesmer already has some good low cool down stunbreaks they can use first then 2 dodges, then invuln then can probably use a stun break utility again as it’s off cool down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stunbreak on dodge is too strong, it shouldn’t be a thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > I do agree. > > > > > > > > > > > > Probably i didn't explain myself in a proper way... I meant that if you remove SB it will remain a "lose 1 condi on dodge" cd. > > > > > > Nice indeed, but not broken or a must like the current one. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, if you are under cc and you dodge you get exhaustion, ok, but also you remove your cc with a single dodge. It's too convenient. > > > > > > That's what i was talking ( the complainet about a dodge which allows you to attack with a stronger attack and also remove a condi an a cc are a joke ). > > > > > > > > > > While I agree with removing stun break is best leaving it to only remove one condition is... weak in my opinion for a GM. I wouldn’t want to give it a damage reduction like UC because I can already achieve 58% damage reduction which is plenty considering what you’re giving up to achieve it but more would be broken I think. So two condi clear? Mirror on dodge? Idk but stun break needs to go. > > > > > > > > MAaaaaaaaaaaate , stop stealing my stuff, i wrote about it ABOOOOOOOOOVE (That it weak and compared it to UC, like rest of mirage traits are weak copies of other traits) > > > > > > Yet, it's the strongest spec in the game. Mirages traits being "weak" doesn't matter much when they have the luxury of taking a strictly defensive line, aswell as illusions for the extra boons. > > > > I disagree. I think Druid is the stongest spec simply because it goes full defense and will win a fight of attrition but using the pet and healing. > > > > If you’re playing shatter you aren’t going to take illusions or chaos. It’s Dom/dueling all day long because they both offer damage increases. Condi will take inspiration but atm condi is weaker than power. If you’re playing the magical “perma every boon” build then you’re asking for a power build to come along and eat you. Been there done that. > > > > Now, I’m not saying Mesmer is weak. By no means is it. However, what they’ve done to Mesmer should be what they are working on for all classes so that each class has multiple builds available to them. Rather than nerf Mesmer back into preHoT state they need to start buffing certain aspects of all classes. Engi, rev, necro and ele would be where I would start. At the same time they need to nerf boon generation across the board and remove expertise and concentration. > > I think you’re downplaying the strength of the current chaos, illusions, mirage Mesmer build in PvP at least and I don’t think Mesmer in its current state is close to the gold standard for what classes should aspire to be balanced like. The problem is many people aren’t looking at all the parts. > > Is bountiful disillusionment (BD) overpowered? Many consider it to be because perma stab OP OP OP, cannot CC the Mesmer at all yadda yadda. However was this trait ever really used that often? Sure in bunker many moons ago but hardly touched since then. Is the chaos line really overpowered for defense? I dunno, it’s a defence line so I’d expect high protection and damage reduction with stab, it seems fitting but has little to no cleanses in the line so won’t help you vs condition builds. > > So where is the problem with the build? Well what if you corrupt or strip the stab? They just stunbreak with a dodge, this is where we find where the real problem is as elusive mind is removing one of the balancing and counter points of BD while jaunt and elusive mind take care of conditions. What else is too strong on it? The damage, it does quite a lot of damage because it so easily stacks might from the new phantasmal force trait, not only that but the might also buffs phantasm damage a lot too. > > So maybe the real issue is that Mesmer can pick 1 trait and see a very large damage increase across the board. This is why I say earlier that classes shouldn’t be brought up to Mesmer level more that Mesmer needs some more work doing. If you pick defensive traits you shouldn’t do that much damage however Mesmer can because it has 1 trait pick which really buffs it to such a silly level, technically 2 because the minor in illusions got altered too which gives a 15% damage buff. > > I said somewhere else, probably Mesmer sub forum that Mesmer damage needs reworks, the traits are all over the place, some buff your damage but not clones/phantasms but affect shatters, others only buff shatters (which is being nerfed to a point where it’s a useless trait almost) while other traits buff phantasms but not the Mesmer to a silly extent while phantasmal force is just a flat out high amount of damage because might and might translating to phantasm buffing. What all this means is it’s very easy to make a build where a singular aspect does high amounts of damage while the rest of the build stays relatively defensive, nerfing elusive mind is a good start but there’s still a lot of work that needs doing to the way Mesmer does damage and how it’s traits interact with skills, shatters and phantams, preferably with a more unified approach. > > Also nerf superiority complex, that trait is just ridiculous compared to mental anguish and mental anguish hasn’t even received the nerf yet. I see less complaints about the mirage version than I do the Chrono simply due to illusions section am. The Chrono version melts to a competent power spec. I’ve not seen mirage on many occasions. Maybe I should have explained myself better. Mesmer needs nerfs, as I believe I’ve stated throughout this forum, but doesn’t need Smiters Boon nerfs which is what everyone wants. When I say that the other classes need to be brought to Mesmer level is there’s absolutely zero reason as to why all trait lines can be viable with all traits being useful. Currently you can grab any Mesmer trait line and make a functional build. Every class should do that. Now, I honestly don’t believe BD is a problem. However, PU and CI both need to be reworked as one is simply ineffective and the other promotes bad game play. So BD is really the only option. The issue is the synergy between it and EM for mirage, however, I firmly believe the stun break portion of EM needs replaced by something else. But this goes beyond a trait issue. It’s a gear issue. If you removed concentration from these builds then you would see a drastic drop in effectiveness. Might stacks won’t stay, stab won’t stay, etc. There are many components working together that are hinged, imo, by concentration. The same with conditions, you can’t properly balance durations and strength so long as any short duration condi can become a long duration one. But this isn’t a Mesmer problem, it’s a stat problem. We’re in agreement that nerfs are needed, but it needs to be the right one. CS is too strong to be a minor trait and it’s synergy with MA and MoD is too strong. I think it should be reworked into something else because it eliminates the need to set up shatters. It holds the hand of whoever is playing. But on the same token the synergy between warriors adrenal health and healing Signet also needs nerfed. Healing Signet is flat out better than any heal warrior has. So these problems aren’t Mesmer specific. And if you’d like I’m more than willing to go through the changes I think need to happen but the biggest being removing concentration and expertise as well as nerfing boon spam across the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razor.6392 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 Lol at this mesmer main trying to seem like a hero for getting them to "remove the stunbreak". **As long as you can dodge while stunned and knocked down, mirage will remain broken**. Maybe people don't know that you can still use mirage cloak while cc'd (even if not running EM), but you can, and it's just as bad as having EM because the mesmer is _not_ taking damage, nor is it getting punished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Razor.6392" said: > Lol at this mesmer main trying to seem like a hero for getting them to "remove the stunbreak". > > **As long as you can dodge while stunned and knocked down, mirage will remain broken**. Maybe people don't know that you can still use mirage cloak while cc'd (even if not running EM), but you can, and it's just as bad as having EM because the mesmer is _not_ taking damage, nor is it getting punished. > @"Odik.4587" said: >that would be empty trait line that gives you literally nothing ,at this point mesmer need entirely new elite spec and everything they have done will go to waste (which they wont do). You dont read entire thread right?:d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted March 21, 2018 Author Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Velimere.7685" said: > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > I, and others, want an honest answer on EM Anet. We warned you about how ridiculously broken it was from the minute it was leaked, before the first beta weekend even. Despite months of warnings and discussions about EM, and mirage in general, you have continued to ignore all of these conversations. > > > > Now you have finally decided to nerf it, and your solution was exhaustion. Anet, its already been discussed, nearly to death, as to why exhaustion both doesn't fit on mesmer in the first place, but, more importantly, wouldn't actually do anything to stop how ridiculously overpowered EM is, and you know it. In response to all of that, you stayed silent about it and simply lowered the duration of exhaustion applied by EM to 3 seconds instead of 4 when breaking a stun. Despite all of our discussions about how exhaustion doesn't even fix the problem with EM, you doubled down anyway and insisted on adding it to the trait, pretending like that will fix it. > > > > Why have you refused to acknowledge any of the discussion about EM? I get that you can't respond to all discussions concerning balance, but EM was one of the most broken things ever introduced to the game. And you ignored the discussion on it. > > > > Why do you refuse to fix the actual problem with EM by simply removing the stunbreak from it? Why are you so insistent on tacking on exhaustion instead of simply removing the mechanic that is overperforming? > > All they have to do is give it a 10-second recharge so it can only be invoked once every 10 seconds like [Empty Vessel](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Empty_Vessel "Empty Vessel"). Adding another internal timer isn't fun to play with as a mesmer, but more importantly, mirage as a class already is extremely resistant to stuns, with a variety of stunbreaks, not to mention dodging through stuns even without EM. Even with a 10sec ICD, mirage doesn't need yet another stunbreak, and it would still be too powerful in conjunction with the rest of the line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted March 21, 2018 Author Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Razor.6392" said: > Lol at this mesmer main trying to seem like a hero for getting them to "remove the stunbreak". > > **As long as you can dodge while stunned and knocked down, mirage will remain broken**. Maybe people don't know that you can still use mirage cloak while cc'd (even if not running EM), but you can, and it's just as bad as having EM because the mesmer is _not_ taking damage, nor is it getting punished. I have been outspokenly against EM since it was first leaked. I'm not "acting like a hero", I'm trying to get this damn trait balanced. Kindly piss off with this attitude, as its not conducive to balancing anything. Not to mention, in case you can't see it, I'm literally asking Anet to implement a significantly harsher nerf than what they are considering implementing. In no way am I trying to let mirage off the hook here, I'm actively trying to bring it in line, and then there are comments like yours that achieve nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > I have been outspokenly against EM since it was first leaked. I'm not "acting like a hero", I'm trying to get this kitten trait balanced. Kindly kitten off with this attitude, as its not conducive to balancing anything. Not to mention, in case you can't see it, I'm literally asking Anet to implement a significantly harsher nerf than what they are considering implementing. In no way am I trying to let mirage off the hook here, I'm actively trying to bring it in line, and then there are comments like yours that achieve nothing. Its good to bring it 'in line' . Just as been said without Smiters boon ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"BikeIsGone.8675" said: > > > I really dont like exhaustion as a concept. I cant think of any other traits than UI (from daredevil) and now EM that penalize the player for making use of them. > > > > Oho, you haven't heard of [overheating](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Overheat "overheating") or [PBM](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Photonic_Blasting_Module "PBM"), have you? > > > > Tell you what, let's make Elusive Mind's punishment be like PBM overheating. You take 3,000 damage over 3 seconds, and we'll call it even. > > Can mesmer gain 50% damage bonus as compensation for taking 3k damage over 3 seconds ? > Well why not take away forge from engi and give it to mesmer and give illusive mind to engi instead? Thats how even you want to be? > In short another clueless person that dare to compare 2 different classes and even more 1 trait to entire elite spec... > Engineer trait REWARD him for dodging that cool down the forge, just FYI ,while you want mesmer to be punished, bring da logic someone. 1. It's 15% damage, not 50% 2. Sure, take away all the evadespam and teleports from mesmer, give them to engi, and we'll call it fair. :) 3. The problem with Elusive Mind is that it rewards mesmers for failing to do something they should've done earlier (like turning off Photon Forge). It's a "get-out-jail-free" card, but it lacks any punishment for using that card. With PBM, you can't avoid having to overheat (heat doesn't dissipate) -- you get punished, just not as severely as you would without it. I don't think exhaustion is the solution, because there's so much evadespam and other kitten built into the mesmer, but there's absolutely no downside to the trait other than opportunity cost. Nothing is given up for an incredibly powerful ability. Thus the comparison to PBM -- perhaps a little damage is in order to compensate for the get out of jail free card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted March 21, 2018 Author Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > I have been outspokenly against EM since it was first leaked. I'm not "acting like a hero", I'm trying to get this kitten trait balanced. Kindly kitten off with this attitude, as its not conducive to balancing anything. Not to mention, in case you can't see it, I'm literally asking Anet to implement a significantly harsher nerf than what they are considering implementing. In no way am I trying to let mirage off the hook here, I'm actively trying to bring it in line, and then there are comments like yours that achieve nothing. > Its good to bring it 'in line' . Just as been said without Smiters boon ;) > > 1 condi cleansed on dodge, while certainly not the strongest GM there is, is still a very solid choice for a GM trait. It could allow a mirage to forego taking a condi clear entirely , allowing a more offensive oriented skill bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > 1. It's 15% damage, not 50% > 2. Sure, take away all the evadespam and teleports from mesmer, give them to engi, and we'll call it fair. :) > 3. The problem with Elusive Mind is that it rewards mesmers for failing to do something they should've done earlier (like turning off Photon Forge). It's a "get-out-jail-free" card, but it lacks any punishment for using that card. With PBM, you can't avoid having to overheat (heat doesn't dissipate) -- you get punished, just not as severely as you would without it. I don't think exhaustion is the solution, because there's so much evadespam and other kitten built into the mesmer, but there's absolutely no downside to the trait other than opportunity cost. Nothing is given up for an incredibly powerful ability. Thus the comparison to PBM -- perhaps a little damage is in order to compensate for the get out of jail free card. 15% he gets above 50% heat, not overheat. Since you mentioned PBM it has an explosion,damage buff + heat therapy that heal him for 650 hp per second. What evade spam ? You have problems? Mirage offer vigor on shatters(surprise engi gets vigor on toolbelt use... unique mechanic!) ,unique dodge and 1 teleport as utility (usable withing 1200 range in random place around target). You can have it while i would get that photon forge and wreck 5 people solo :D Evade spam ? They haveperma vigor(same as vigor on shatters but on belt) AND elixir that refill TWO dodges , mirage doesnt have any kind of endurance regeneration . Alrdy forgotten that 5 dodges in a row? (could take permanent 50% edurance regen but thats another story) Remove EM , make new USEFUL trait , i dont mind , go ahead. Also dont forget to remove Dune Cloak ,grandmaster trait that useless in all game modes .:) > @"OriOri.8724" said: > 1 condi cleansed on dodge, while certainly not the strongest GM there is, is still a very solid choice for a GM trait. It could allow a mirage to forego taking a condi clear entirely , allowing a more offensive oriented skill bar. > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: >removing stun break is best leaving it to only remove one condition is... weak in my opinion for a GM. > @"Odik.4587" said: > Only 1 condition would be weak and thief(daredevil,non grandmaster trait) alrdy have that trait which is work slightly differently and better than just remove 1 condition while you wasted entire dodge. I remember Misha streams when he was farmed entire game by random condi s/d thief and you say forego condi cleanses entirely ? ( That havent been recently, been when confusions used to be not nerfed) What changed since that moment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace al Thor.6745 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > 1. It's 15% damage, not 50% > > 2. Sure, take away all the evadespam and teleports from mesmer, give them to engi, and we'll call it fair. :) > > 3. The problem with Elusive Mind is that it rewards mesmers for failing to do something they should've done earlier (like turning off Photon Forge). It's a "get-out-jail-free" card, but it lacks any punishment for using that card. With PBM, you can't avoid having to overheat (heat doesn't dissipate) -- you get punished, just not as severely as you would without it. I don't think exhaustion is the solution, because there's so much evadespam and other kitten built into the mesmer, but there's absolutely no downside to the trait other than opportunity cost. Nothing is given up for an incredibly powerful ability. Thus the comparison to PBM -- perhaps a little damage is in order to compensate for the get out of jail free card. > > 15% he gets above 50% heat, not overheat. Since you mentioned PBM it has an explosion,damage buff + heat therapy that heal him for 650 hp per second. > What evade spam ? You have problems? Mirage offer vigor on shatters(surprise engi gets vigor on toolbelt use... unique mechanic!) ,unique dodge and 1 teleport as utility (usable withing 1200 range in random place around target). You can have it while i would get that photon forge and wreck 5 people solo :D > Evade spam ? They haveperma vigor(same as vigor on shatters but on belt) AND elixir that refill TWO dodges , mirage doesnt have any kind of endurance regeneration . Alrdy forgotten that 5 dodges in a row? (could take permanent 50% edurance regen but thats another story) > Remove EM , make new USEFUL trait , i dont mind , go ahead. Also dont forget to remove Dune Cloak ,grandmaster trait that useless in all game modes .:) > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > 1 condi cleansed on dodge, while certainly not the strongest GM there is, is still a very solid choice for a GM trait. It could allow a mirage to forego taking a condi clear entirely , allowing a more offensive oriented skill bar. > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > >removing stun break is best leaving it to only remove one condition is... weak in my opinion for a GM. > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > Only 1 condition would be weak and thief(daredevil,non grandmaster trait) alrdy have that trait which is work slightly differently and better than just remove 1 condition while you wasted entire dodge. > > I remember Misha streams when he was farmed entire game by random condi s/d thief and you say forego condi cleanses entirely ? ( That havent been recently, been when confusions used to be not nerfed) What changed since that moment? Wait who said to to remove condi clear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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