Taking bets on how long until IH is nerfed

[OriOri.8724]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > The exhaustion thing is a lazy and poor nerf but it doesn’t make EM any worse as it’s still broken on a conceptual level, unless you were eating stuns all day long and never dodged a CC.

> > >

> > > IH is crazy strong for bursting conditions, some people have already picked up on it and it absolutely destroys potatoes. I’ve even seen streamers get roflstomped by IH condition builds mostly because they tank it not knowing what/how to dodge it. I would expect it will get calls for nerfs after EM has been SBooned to 10s exhaustion and no condition cleanse.

> >

> > Uh oh, that makes me worried - they might not nerf IH, but instead nerf individual ambushes into uselessness if not taking IH. :o

>

> Well I mean if I’m being brutally honest it’s a trait that amplifies the power of ambush skills (in condi builds) by 2-4 times depending on how many clones you have. Objectively it’s up there with chronophantasma in terms of poor design where it offers extraordinary gains for a single trait on a single skill. However nerfing the ambush skills makes them really bad and pointless without the trait but I don’t feel like you can nerf the IH trait.

>

> Having said that it would be interesting to do a comparison of something like the damage increase from a +10% damage trait which applies across all skills and traits vs those that massively buff a singular aspect like only ambush attacks or phantasms. I dunno if Pyro has any experience in this or has seen any examples as he’s far more experienced than I am and has known frifox.

>

> Having said that I honestly don’t think IH when you look at the whole trait line really stands out as being any more overbearing than other elite specs. I mean let’s not forget the insane damage of holo, the tankiness of SB and how F.C. refreshes burst skills, shroud skills being such oppressive AoEs, weavers insane evade and regeneration ability, druid kiting/tankiness, DD evade spam or FB support.

>

> Edit: not seen Pyro around for a bit, has he been banned yet or is he just avoiding the lynch mob?

 

IH, and CP though to a lesser extent now, are fundamentally broken designs, and the skills they affect **_cannot_** be balanced because of that, which is why I wanted IH to be changed as well when Mirage was first released.

 

The inherent problem with IH is that it allows for you to get off up to 4 identical ambush attacks at once. So in order to balance this so that it isn't oppressive as fuck, the individual ambush attacks have to be pretty damn shitty. Seriously, outside of sword ambush, compare our ambush attacks to backstab, a very similar mechanic on thief, and our ambush attacks are stupidly weak. Sword ambush is an example of the opposite end, where its near oppressive with IH. Your clone gets to be invulnerable while interrupting the enemy. This leaves you free to continue your actions, and the other player is still interrupted. That is pretty busted functionality honestly. Design wise, its a really cool idea. Mechanics wise its impossible to balance. Either ambush attacks will be balanced around just our character using them (sword ambush), and then be extremely overbearing when you take IH, or they are balanced around you having IH and having the potential to get off 4 ambush attacks simultaneously (and lets face it, even then some of them are pretty damn underwhelming, which is sad)

 

I agree that IH and EM aren't overbearing when compared to other elite specs. I disagree on the implied premise that this means we shouldn't try to fix them. When this is said about every class it only leads to nothing being fixed, ever.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> Sword ambush is an example of the opposite end, where its near oppressive with IH. Your clone gets to be invulnerable while interrupting the enemy. This leaves you free to continue your actions, and the other player is still interrupted. That is pretty busted functionality honestly.

 

Actually I consider sword ambush to be one of the least effective combinations with IH. All of the other ambush skills get what is effectively a power multiplier when used with IH. Sword ambush, on the other hand, doesn't really do anything. At the most it allows you to interrupt with a clone instead of personally, but getting 3 clones doesn't make it any better. Additionally, since you'll usually be using the ambush leap personally to close distance and get off a melee combo, it means the only thing IH does for sword is move the clones into melee range. While nice, hardly powerful.

[Exciton.8942]

IH is bad in PvP.

 

The opportunity cost of taking advantage of IH is not shattering. But in PvP, shatter is mesmer's best and most reliable way of doing damage, whether you are playing power or condition.

 

Do you seriously try to keep your clones alive and bank on their ambush to do the job in PvP? If so, I would be quite curious to see your build in action.

[Jojo.6590]

With us not even being a full day into the balance patch and there being already 10+ threads of Mesmer being OP, its not looking good. Especially since Anet tends to side with the side that crys the most/ loudest.

Though I won't lie, its very funny reading how crazy a lot of these "OP" threads are. Just their statements alone show they have little to no understanding of how Mesmer functions. What we're seeing is back-lash for Mesmer not getting nerfed as much as other classes.

This patch is a rude awakening for people that relied heavily on passive traits and button mashing.

Edit:

The best thing we can do is correct the fabricated Illusions people are posting about Mesmer.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Jojo.6590" said:

> With us not even being a full day into the balance patch and there being already 10+ threads of Mesmer being OP, its not looking good. Especially since Anet tends to side with the side that crys the most/ loudest.

> Though I won't lie, its very funny reading how crazy a lot of these "OP" threads are. Just their statements alone show they have little to no understanding of how Mesmer functions. What we're seeing is back-lash for Mesmer not getting nerfed as much as other classes.

> This patch is a rude awakening for people that relied heavily on passive traits and button mashing.

> Edit:

> The best thing we can do is correct the fabricated Illusions people are posting about Mesmer.

 

Its even funnier to me that most of these threads werecreated after the balance patch, when we were nerfed. Granted, it was only a small nerf, but its not like we got any stronger in this patch.

[Levetty.1279]

I agree with OriOri, lets remove all traits and skills so the game is just nondescript blobs auto attacking.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

> @"Jojo.6590" said:

> With us not even being a full day into the balance patch and there being already 10+ threads of Mesmer being OP, its not looking good. Especially since Anet tends to side with the side that crys the most/ loudest.

> Though I won't lie, its very funny reading how crazy a lot of these "OP" threads are. Just their statements alone show they have little to no understanding of how Mesmer functions. What we're seeing is back-lash for Mesmer not getting nerfed as much as other classes.

> This patch is a rude awakening for people that relied heavily on passive traits and button mashing.

> Edit:

> The best thing we can do is correct the fabricated Illusions people are posting about Mesmer.

 

Thing is if you start correcting them or offer up suggestions they’ll start saying you don’t know anything rather than be productive.

[Jojo.6590]

 

> @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> Thing is if you start correcting them or offer up suggestions they’ll start saying you don’t know anything rather than be productive.

 

I know Jace, but hopefully if we-the Mesmer players maintain/ appear more respectful then the players claiming Mesmer is OP the Devs may hopefully side more with us.

[Kundry.1249]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"Jojo.6590" said:

> > With us not even being a full day into the balance patch and there being already 10+ threads of Mesmer being OP, its not looking good. Especially since Anet tends to side with the side that crys the most/ loudest.

> > Though I won't lie, its very funny reading how crazy a lot of these "OP" threads are. Just their statements alone show they have little to no understanding of how Mesmer functions. What we're seeing is back-lash for Mesmer not getting nerfed as much as other classes.

> > This patch is a rude awakening for people that relied heavily on passive traits and button mashing.

> > Edit:

> > The best thing we can do is correct the fabricated Illusions people are posting about Mesmer.

>

> Its even funnier to me that most of these threads werecreated after the balance patch, when we were nerfed. Granted, it was only a small nerf, but its not like we got any stronger in this patch.

 

Many other builds got nerfed, in a harsher manner. So one could almost argue that it was a relative buff to mesmers -- though we'll have to see what new builds people come up with.

 

 

[EnderzShadow.2506]

Pyro, you still play? Or you just haunt the forums?

 

Don't kid yourself mesmer community, your years of crying paid off and is still paying off for your class.

You weren't nerfed.

 

Mesmers, you are in comparison, in a better spot than you were before.

[Forsty.7968]

Wait people actually think IH will be picked? YIKES

[rank eleven monk.9502]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > Sword ambush is an example of the opposite end, where its near oppressive with IH. Your clone gets to be invulnerable while interrupting the enemy. This leaves you free to continue your actions, and the other player is still interrupted. That is pretty busted functionality honestly.

>

> Actually I consider sword ambush to be one of the least effective combinations with IH. All of the other ambush skills get what is effectively a power multiplier when used with IH. Sword ambush, on the other hand, doesn't really do anything. At the most it allows you to interrupt with a clone instead of personally, but getting 3 clones doesn't make it any better. Additionally, since you'll usually be using the ambush leap personally to close distance and get off a melee combo, it means the only thing IH does for sword is move the clones into melee range. While nice, hardly powerful.

IH makes your clones daze the enemy even when you are immobilized, kiting, stunned, etc. You very very much underestimate this. Constant daze spam can drive them really crazy without stability.

 

Also if you have to avoid melee, you will still have constant interrupts without ever getting close to the enemy. These are extremely important in high level pvp (with power block obviously)

 

Also clones using GS ambush add a brutal cleave in teamfights (the clones hit around 1-2k IIRC + 25 stacks of might + your ambush).

 

> @"Exciton.8942" said:

> IH is bad in PvP.

>

> The opportunity cost of taking advantage of IH is not shattering. But in PvP, shatter is mesmer's best and most reliable way of doing damage, whether you are playing power or condition.

>

> Do you seriously try to keep your clones alive and bank on their ambush to do the job in PvP? If so, I would be quite curious to see your build in action.

Untrue. With a proper build you will always have a very fast clone regeneration -> a few clones are always up (e.g. if you take Deceptive Evasion). See everything else above.

[musu.9205]

anet will nerf current meta builds into oblivion . even they know most of pvp complaint are nonsense they will still do smite boon nerf again .

where is the condition mirage now ?

it's simple the skill level of pvp community is getting worse and worse the amount of complaint about perma every boon , perma evade , perma block , endless phantasm and clones with endless chasing abilities is pathetic . ,the majority of people in this game pvp wouldn't not learn to play anymore . anet will nerf mesmer to make them feel better .

 

and about EM , it's still better than IH . sword ambush is still not consistent on clone , even its nasty with IH on paper , i doubt its going to be that good in actual fight .

also you have to remember , scourge seems likely to remain meta , we still need more condition cleanse (its not like we have "perma condition removal "as pvp forum believed )

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"rank eleven monk.9502" said:

 

> IH makes your clones daze the enemy even when you are immobilized, kiting, stunned, etc. You very very much underestimate this. Constant daze spam can drive them really crazy without stability.

 

This.

 

If you compare it side by side, EM seems better however IH has a tremendous sinergy with other traits (deceptive evasion, power block and now to a lesser extend CS).

It's all a matter of taste, do you want a get out of jail free card chose EM, do you want to play an overall better build go with IH.

 

For reference some of you that think IH is bad should watch Jazz's videos, he plays with 1 stunbreaker and does fine.

 

 

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"rank eleven monk.9502" said:

> IH makes your clones daze the enemy even when you are immobilized, kiting, stunned, etc. You very very much underestimate this. Constant daze spam can drive them really crazy without stability.

>

> Also if you have to avoid melee, you will still have constant interrupts without ever getting close to the enemy. These are extremely important in high level pvp (with power block obviously)

 

That's true, it does allow you to still daze/interrupt at range or while cc'ed. That being said, it still doesn't scale with quantity of clones like the other ambushes do and it's still not significant impactful in situations where you're not doing heavy kiting, since that's when you'll be using the ambush personally.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"EnderzShadow.2506" said:

> Pyro, you still play? Or you just haunt the forums?

 

I still play, albeit much less than I used to. I've mostly stopped playing mesmer in WvW because of how boring it is, mostly playing firebrand or dh now.