RabbitUp.8294 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > @"SlimChance.6593" said: > > > Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy. > > > > > > Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused. > > > > > > But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma. > > > > > > Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied. > > > > > > Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive. > > > > If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP > > Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own. > > Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer. Changing Chronophantasma hurts the pve dps build for no reason. Same for putting a cap. How about targeted pvp nerfs? Nerf the overperforming phantasms directly, or increase Imagined Burden's damage reduction from 25% to 33% for pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refia Montes.3205 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > @"SlimChance.6593" said: > > > > Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy. > > > > > > > > Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused. > > > > > > > > But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma. > > > > > > > > Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied. > > > > > > > > Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive. > > > > > > If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP > > > > Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own. > > > > Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer. > > Changing Chronophantasma hurts the pve dps build for no reason. Same for putting a cap. > > How about targeted pvp nerfs? Nerf the overperforming phantasms directly, or increase Imagined Burden's damage reduction from 25% to 33% for pvp. Tbh, IB isn't really that strong of a trait. Sure, you can deal more damage with one swing of GS4, but it only really works when your opponent has low armor, no blocks, evades etc and countering CP is pretty easy with it. Once you see two Zerkers do their first animation just ready yourself ffor the second strike by dodging or jumping up some height. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exciton.8942 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 The funny part is even mesmer players in this thread thinking chronophantasma + IB is OP? This is not even a meta-worthy build. Just like I was surprised to see mental anguish being nerfed as it is not even the best trait in domi GM. Because people complain about 1 shot build so it get nerfed. Similarly with these GS phantasm builds, just because it creates a lot of phantasms so people freak out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabbitUp.8294 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 I don't think it's OP, but I do think it's a brainless build. It's no different to pewpew ranger, with a bit more aoe, and you can stealth away if someone looks at you the wrong way. Honestly it gives mesmers a bad name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimChance.6593 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 You have to look at the bigger picture. IB & CP ends up spawning 4 phantasm and 2 clones. It adds visual clutter and easily sets up 3 clone shatter, all done with a single skill cast. This is textbook powercreep. You change IB to a single phantasm with a double attack. Now your only getting one clone with or without CP and less visual clutter. Your still getting the same damage/utility, but theres a minor nerf to clone generation. Im just saying that the phantasm rework needs to be tweeked more, but do it smart! Dont do another “slap exhaustion” on it and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levetty.1279 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > @"SlimChance.6593" said: > > > > Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy. > > > > > > > > Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused. > > > > > > > > But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma. > > > > > > > > Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied. > > > > > > > > Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive. > > > > > > If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP > > > > Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own. > > > > Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer. > > Changing Chronophantasma hurts the pve dps build for no reason. Same for putting a cap. > > How about targeted pvp nerfs? Nerf the overperforming phantasms directly, or increase Imagined Burden's damage reduction from 25% to 33% for pvp. > @"Exciton.8942" said: > The funny part is even mesmer players in this thread thinking chronophantasma + IB is OP? > > This is not even a meta-worthy build. > > Just like I was surprised to see mental anguish being nerfed as it is not even the best trait in domi GM. Because people complain about 1 shot build so it get nerfed. Similarly with these GS phantasm builds, just because it creates a lot of phantasms so people freak out. Notice how when Anet starts doing patches that are purely PvP/PvE splits then the suggested fixes for mesmer change from damage numbers to nerfing mechanics. Its not about making Mesmer balanced in PvP, to these people, Its about removing Mesmer from all modes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exciton.8942 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 > @"SlimChance.6593" said: > You have to look at the bigger picture. IB & CP ends up spawning 4 phantasm and 2 clones. It adds visual clutter and easily sets up 3 clone shatter, all done with a single skill cast. This is textbook powercreep. > > You change IB to a single phantasm with a double attack. Now your only getting one clone with or without CP and less visual clutter. Your still getting the same damage/utility, but theres a minor nerf to clone generation. > > Im just saying that the phantasm rework needs to be tweeked more, but do it smart! Dont do another “slap exhaustion” on it and move on. Bigger picture? One has to invest in Two GM traits to just get an 'overpowered' phantasmal berserker skill. So what is your overpowered build. Domination/Inspiration/Chrono? The build is not even meta-worthy. And honestly, I don't even think it is strong. This is one very telegraphed and easy-to-avoid skill. It is also based on stupid AI and you can kite them easily as well. The clone set up is not reliable either. You want to set up clones right next to target and shatter. Chronophantasm delays clone generation, which is counter-productive for shatter build. Bottom line is imagine burden is so much inferior to power block. I don't even know what this build is good at doing. I think I can easily outplay it with any decent meta build out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refia Montes.3205 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Honestly I can't wait for next week. I'm excited to see which part of mesmer is now permanent. Perma double elite specs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 > @"Kundry.1249" said: > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > @"SlimChance.6593" said: > > > > Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy. > > > > > > > > Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused. > > > > > > > > But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma. > > > > > > > > Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied. > > > > > > > > Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive. > > > > > > If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP > > > > Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own. > > > > Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer. > > Is that build even meta though? GS/Staff? No, not nearly. But it was meant to point out how bad of an idea capping phantasms is. That would be a horrible change to the class. To everyone else complaining that IB + CP isn't that great, or that it isn't meta and everything else. You are still missing the point. The phantasms were changed to be a single attack entity for a good reason. To then be able to turn around and have a single cast of a phantasm skill output 4 phantasms, essentially quadrupling the damage output they do (3x damage for iZerker due to the damage nerf from IB), not to mention doubling the clones that skill produces, is silly. And you can then turn around and do the same thing again if you run SotE. That synergy is not healthy for the class honestly. Quite frankly, it doesn't really matter if you think its overpowered or underpowered, or if it is meta or not. Its still not a healthy synergy, which is why something needs to change. @"RabbitUp.8294" You don't have to gut power chrono's DPS in order to address this synergy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levetty.1279 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > Honestly I can't wait for next week. I'm excited to see which part of mesmer is now permanent. Perma double elite specs? Well people are already all over this board claiming Chronophantasma is too strong even though everybody is still playing Mirage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kundry.1249 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > @"Kundry.1249" said: > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > @"SlimChance.6593" said: > > > > > Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy. > > > > > > > > > > Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused. > > > > > > > > > > But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma. > > > > > > > > > > Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied. > > > > > > > > > > Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive. > > > > > > > > If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP > > > > > > Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own. > > > > > > Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer. > > > > Is that build even meta though? > > GS/Staff? No, not nearly. But it was meant to point out how bad of an idea capping phantasms is. That would be a horrible change to the class. > > To everyone else complaining that IB + CP isn't that great, or that it isn't meta and everything else. You are still missing the point. The phantasms were changed to be a single attack entity for a good reason. To then be able to turn around and have a single cast of a phantasm skill output 4 phantasms, essentially quadrupling the damage output they do (3x damage for iZerker due to the damage nerf from IB), not to mention doubling the clones that skill produces, is silly. And you can then turn around and do the same thing again if you run SotE. > > That synergy is not healthy for the class honestly. Quite frankly, it doesn't really matter if you think its overpowered or underpowered, or if it is meta or not. Its still not a healthy synergy, which is why something needs to change. > > @"RabbitUp.8294" You don't have to gut power chrono's DPS in order to address this synergy. I was referring to the 16 izerker build (with staff or not). What is not healthy about it, if it's a meme build? The potential that some component of it gets buffed and becomes OP in the future? Or are you worried that it's too strong against bad players, and hence will invite too much demand for mesmer nerfs from the general populace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 > @"Kundry.1249" said: > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > @"Kundry.1249" said: > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > @"SlimChance.6593" said: > > > > > > Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy. > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused. > > > > > > > > > > > > But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma. > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive. > > > > > > > > > > If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP > > > > > > > > Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own. > > > > > > > > Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer. > > > > > > Is that build even meta though? > > > > GS/Staff? No, not nearly. But it was meant to point out how bad of an idea capping phantasms is. That would be a horrible change to the class. > > > > To everyone else complaining that IB + CP isn't that great, or that it isn't meta and everything else. You are still missing the point. The phantasms were changed to be a single attack entity for a good reason. To then be able to turn around and have a single cast of a phantasm skill output 4 phantasms, essentially quadrupling the damage output they do (3x damage for iZerker due to the damage nerf from IB), not to mention doubling the clones that skill produces, is silly. And you can then turn around and do the same thing again if you run SotE. > > > > That synergy is not healthy for the class honestly. Quite frankly, it doesn't really matter if you think its overpowered or underpowered, or if it is meta or not. Its still not a healthy synergy, which is why something needs to change. > > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" You don't have to gut power chrono's DPS in order to address this synergy. > > I was referring to the 16 izerker build (with staff or not). What is not healthy about it, if it's a meme build? The potential that some component of it gets buffed and becomes OP in the future? Or are you worried that it's too strong against bad players, and hence will invite too much demand for mesmer nerfs from the general populace? What is healthy about 3 skills landing 16 attacks from 16 different entities, along with giving you enough clones to pull off 2 4 illusion shatters? That is absurd levels of powercreep, to be able to get so much crap out of using 3 skills. I'm not a fan of overloaded skills. And this is overloaded to fuck and back. Its a fundamentally unhealthy synergy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimChance.6593 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Ori gets it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kundry.1249 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > @"Kundry.1249" said: > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > @"Kundry.1249" said: > > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > @"SlimChance.6593" said: > > > > > > > Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP > > > > > > > > > > Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own. > > > > > > > > > > Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer. > > > > > > > > Is that build even meta though? > > > > > > GS/Staff? No, not nearly. But it was meant to point out how bad of an idea capping phantasms is. That would be a horrible change to the class. > > > > > > To everyone else complaining that IB + CP isn't that great, or that it isn't meta and everything else. You are still missing the point. The phantasms were changed to be a single attack entity for a good reason. To then be able to turn around and have a single cast of a phantasm skill output 4 phantasms, essentially quadrupling the damage output they do (3x damage for iZerker due to the damage nerf from IB), not to mention doubling the clones that skill produces, is silly. And you can then turn around and do the same thing again if you run SotE. > > > > > > That synergy is not healthy for the class honestly. Quite frankly, it doesn't really matter if you think its overpowered or underpowered, or if it is meta or not. Its still not a healthy synergy, which is why something needs to change. > > > > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" You don't have to gut power chrono's DPS in order to address this synergy. > > > > I was referring to the 16 izerker build (with staff or not). What is not healthy about it, if it's a meme build? The potential that some component of it gets buffed and becomes OP in the future? Or are you worried that it's too strong against bad players, and hence will invite too much demand for mesmer nerfs from the general populace? > > What is healthy about 3 skills landing 16 attacks from 16 different entities, along with giving you enough clones to pull off 2 4 illusion shatters? That is absurd levels of powercreep, to be able to get so much crap out of using 3 skills. > > I'm not a fan of overloaded skills. And this is overloaded to kitten and back. Its a fundamentally unhealthy synergy Power in pvp is only really meaningful relative to others' power. If it's not meta, then it's most likely not powerful. "Power" or "how much you get out" of a set of skills is measured by how much it contributes toward winning the game, not how many NPCs they spawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > @"SlimChance.6593" said: > > And if fix CP and make it an "active" trait instead of one of the most powerful "passive" traits in the game, then you wouldn't have to limit phantasms. > > You still would because of F5 and SoE. Not that anyone is going to use SoE just to get more phantasms in PvP but I’ve seen people complain about it. It's actually really good atm if you want to abuse Phantasms with CP and Continuum Split. You summon 3 defenders, 3 disenchanters, 6 Warlocks and 3 Mages and rotate the shatters as they pop up, bonus points for being a grievers illusions/inspiration build. I agree that there needs to be a limit although 3 is way too low... Maybe 5 at most because thats 3 skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exciton.8942 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > @"Kundry.1249" said: > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > @"Kundry.1249" said: > > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > @"SlimChance.6593" said: > > > > > > > Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP > > > > > > > > > > Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own. > > > > > > > > > > Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer. > > > > > > > > Is that build even meta though? > > > > > > GS/Staff? No, not nearly. But it was meant to point out how bad of an idea capping phantasms is. That would be a horrible change to the class. > > > > > > To everyone else complaining that IB + CP isn't that great, or that it isn't meta and everything else. You are still missing the point. The phantasms were changed to be a single attack entity for a good reason. To then be able to turn around and have a single cast of a phantasm skill output 4 phantasms, essentially quadrupling the damage output they do (3x damage for iZerker due to the damage nerf from IB), not to mention doubling the clones that skill produces, is silly. And you can then turn around and do the same thing again if you run SotE. > > > > > > That synergy is not healthy for the class honestly. Quite frankly, it doesn't really matter if you think its overpowered or underpowered, or if it is meta or not. Its still not a healthy synergy, which is why something needs to change. > > > > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" You don't have to gut power chrono's DPS in order to address this synergy. > > > > I was referring to the 16 izerker build (with staff or not). What is not healthy about it, if it's a meme build? The potential that some component of it gets buffed and becomes OP in the future? Or are you worried that it's too strong against bad players, and hence will invite too much demand for mesmer nerfs from the general populace? > > What is healthy about 3 skills landing 16 attacks from 16 different entities, along with giving you enough clones to pull off 2 4 illusion shatters? That is absurd levels of powercreep, to be able to get so much crap out of using 3 skills. > > I'm not a fan of overloaded skills. And this is overloaded to kitten and back. Its a fundamentally unhealthy synergy Typical mistake people make is to link the number of button presses to effort or skill. Back in the days when DD ele was OP, it takes a lot of button press. But that is one the least skill demanding build I've ever played. Two of the skills you are talking about are key high CD skills chrono has at disposal. One of them is the heal skill that cuts your sustain for 30 sec if you use it offensively. By your standard, builds that rely on skills with long CD and high impact will always be the broken builds that need fixes. For example, in your book, signet of the ether is probably one of the most OP skills out there because of its synergies with every single one of our phantasm skills, because it doubles up their damage as you said. But in reality, it is a skill that has been struggling to see usage even after many rounds of buffs. You can't simply measure skill/trait power from such a simplistic view. True that in PvE, chronophantasma doubles your phantasm skill damage. But in PvP, you have to consider how likely you are gonna land those hits and also how it delays your clone spawn. Phantasmal berserker has always been a low-impact skill in PvP. Speccing heavily into enhancing it won't give you a strong build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimChance.6593 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 And here I thought skill cast times and cool downs were "balance mechanics". Silly me. Powercreep is real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 > @"Exciton.8942" said: > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > @"Kundry.1249" said: > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > > @"Kundry.1249" said: > > > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > > > @"SlimChance.6593" said: > > > > > > > > Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP > > > > > > > > > > > > Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own. > > > > > > > > > > > > Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer. > > > > > > > > > > Is that build even meta though? > > > > > > > > GS/Staff? No, not nearly. But it was meant to point out how bad of an idea capping phantasms is. That would be a horrible change to the class. > > > > > > > > To everyone else complaining that IB + CP isn't that great, or that it isn't meta and everything else. You are still missing the point. The phantasms were changed to be a single attack entity for a good reason. To then be able to turn around and have a single cast of a phantasm skill output 4 phantasms, essentially quadrupling the damage output they do (3x damage for iZerker due to the damage nerf from IB), not to mention doubling the clones that skill produces, is silly. And you can then turn around and do the same thing again if you run SotE. > > > > > > > > That synergy is not healthy for the class honestly. Quite frankly, it doesn't really matter if you think its overpowered or underpowered, or if it is meta or not. Its still not a healthy synergy, which is why something needs to change. > > > > > > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" You don't have to gut power chrono's DPS in order to address this synergy. > > > > > > I was referring to the 16 izerker build (with staff or not). What is not healthy about it, if it's a meme build? The potential that some component of it gets buffed and becomes OP in the future? Or are you worried that it's too strong against bad players, and hence will invite too much demand for mesmer nerfs from the general populace? > > > > What is healthy about 3 skills landing 16 attacks from 16 different entities, along with giving you enough clones to pull off 2 4 illusion shatters? That is absurd levels of powercreep, to be able to get so much crap out of using 3 skills. > > > > I'm not a fan of overloaded skills. And this is overloaded to kitten and back. Its a fundamentally unhealthy synergy > > Typical mistake people make is to link the number of button presses to effort or skill. Back in the days when DD ele was OP, it takes a lot of button press. But that is one the least skill demanding build I've ever played. > > Two of the skills you are talking about are key high CD skills chrono has at disposal. One of them is the heal skill that cuts your sustain for 30 sec if you use it offensively. By your standard, builds that rely on skills with long CD and high impact will always be the broken builds that need fixes. > > For example, in your book, signet of the ether is probably one of the most OP skills out there because of its synergies with every single one of our phantasm skills, because it doubles up their damage as you said. But in reality, it is a skill that has been struggling to see usage even after many rounds of buffs. > > You can't simply measure skill/trait power from such a simplistic view. True that in PvE, chronophantasma doubles your phantasm skill damage. But in PvP, you have to consider how likely you are gonna land those hits and also how it delays your clone spawn. Phantasmal berserker has always been a low-impact skill in PvP. Speccing heavily into enhancing it won't give you a strong build. SotE is not the most OP skills out there, not by a large margin. All I'm saying is that the synergy between our traits and skills right now is fundamentally unhealthy. Point out to me where I said that this was all overpowered? Something doesn't have to be overpowered to have an unhealthy design. I mean look at Rev for crying out loud.... And no, I'm not linking the amount of buttons pressed to the effort required or skill of playing the class. If that's what you got out of my comment then you really don't understand what I am saying. Having 3 skills pull off 16 different attacks from 16 different entities, and then prime you for 2 4 illusion shatters back to back is stupid amounts of powercreep from even PoF release. That's independent of player skill. The fact is that you are getting significantly too much out of 3 skills. This is almost exactly the same problem as a single skill being overloaded to shit and back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > @"SlimChance.6593" said: > > > > Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy. > > > > > > > > Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused. > > > > > > > > But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma. > > > > > > > > Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied. > > > > > > > > Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive. > > > > > > If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP > > > > Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own. > > > > Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer. > > Changing Chronophantasma hurts the pve dps build for no reason. Same for putting a cap. > > How about targeted pvp nerfs? Nerf the overperforming phantasms directly, or increase Imagined Burden's damage reduction from 25% to 33% for pvp. Well considering chrono was meant as a support spec I think perhaps damage increase isn’t and shouldn’t be the priority for it. If only there was a DPS elite spec.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refia Montes.3205 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > @"SlimChance.6593" said: > > > > > Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy. > > > > > > > > > > Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused. > > > > > > > > > > But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma. > > > > > > > > > > Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied. > > > > > > > > > > Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive. > > > > > > > > If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP > > > > > > Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own. > > > > > > Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer. > > > > Changing Chronophantasma hurts the pve dps build for no reason. Same for putting a cap. > > > > How about targeted pvp nerfs? Nerf the overperforming phantasms directly, or increase Imagined Burden's damage reduction from 25% to 33% for pvp. > > Well considering chrono was meant as a support spec I think perhaps damage increase isn’t and shouldn’t be the priority for it. If only there was a DPS elite spec.... Chronomancer was meant to be a support spec? Hmmm... where did you get that? From what I got is that Chronomancer is a master of time with past and future themes intact in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levetty.1279 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 Can we stop trying to ruin Chronophantasma because we are under the mistaken impression that PvP still matters. Synergy between skills and traits are a good thing. > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > @"SlimChance.6593" said: > > > > > Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy. > > > > > > > > > > Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused. > > > > > > > > > > But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma. > > > > > > > > > > Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied. > > > > > > > > > > Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive. > > > > > > > > If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP > > > > > > Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own. > > > > > > Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer. > > > > Changing Chronophantasma hurts the pve dps build for no reason. Same for putting a cap. > > > > How about targeted pvp nerfs? Nerf the overperforming phantasms directly, or increase Imagined Burden's damage reduction from 25% to 33% for pvp. > > Well considering chrono was meant as a support spec I think perhaps damage increase isn’t and shouldn’t be the priority for it. If only there was a DPS elite spec.... If you look at Chrono when it was first revealed it was very much a QoL spec. The run speed increase trait, Chronophantasma was supposed to help with the shatter vs phantasms problem, Wells were to give us more aoe (I even think they used the word tagging when they were showing them off), alacrity and F5 for our long cooldowns. Alacrity was almost exclusively a self buff, the only way to give it to others was through the phantasm which at the time used the bouncing mechanic. Support Chrono was made accidentally because during HoT beta they seemed to implement every idea that players had for the elite specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 > @"Levetty.1279" said: > Can we stop trying to ruin Chronophantasma because we are under the mistaken impression that PvP still matters. Synergy between skills and traits are a good thing. > Most synergy is good. The current synergy we have is unhealthy. And, again, you don't have to ruin CP in order to address this. Changing SotE active effect would actually address all the problems I currently have with this, and that doesn't touch CP at all. Or if you leave SotE alone, CP could be changed to something like simply giving each phantasm a second attack instead of respawning a second phantasm. Lowers the synergy of these traits and skills in PvP because you have a fairly big opportunity to kill those phantasms before they get their second attack off, doesn't affect PvE negatively at all (could even be a slight buff if it ends up getting the clones out faster). Or even more basic, to only respawning a single phantasm per phantasm skill, regardless of whether the phantasm skill itself summons 1 or 2 phantasms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 I'm excited for when we get permafury, 25 might, protection, swiftness, and quickness too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levetty.1279 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > @"Levetty.1279" said: > > Can we stop trying to ruin Chronophantasma because we are under the mistaken impression that PvP still matters. Synergy between skills and traits are a good thing. > > > > Most synergy is good. The current synergy we have is unhealthy. And, again, you don't have to ruin CP in order to address this. Changing SotE active effect would actually address all the problems I currently have with this, and that doesn't touch CP at all. Or if you leave SotE alone, CP could be changed to something like simply giving each phantasm a second attack instead of respawning a second phantasm. Lowers the synergy of these traits and skills in PvP because you have a fairly big opportunity to kill those phantasms before they get their second attack off, doesn't affect PvE negatively at all (could even be a slight buff if it ends up getting the clones out faster). Or even more basic, to only respawning a single phantasm per phantasm skill, regardless of whether the phantasm skill itself summons 1 or 2 phantasms. I'm glad you people never got your claws into GW1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said: > > > > > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said: > > > > > > @"SlimChance.6593" said: > > > > > > Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy. > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused. > > > > > > > > > > > > But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma. > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive. > > > > > > > > > > If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP > > > > > > > > Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own. > > > > > > > > Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer. > > > > > > Changing Chronophantasma hurts the pve dps build for no reason. Same for putting a cap. > > > > > > How about targeted pvp nerfs? Nerf the overperforming phantasms directly, or increase Imagined Burden's damage reduction from 25% to 33% for pvp. > > > > Well considering chrono was meant as a support spec I think perhaps damage increase isn’t and shouldn’t be the priority for it. If only there was a DPS elite spec.... > > Chronomancer was meant to be a support spec? Hmmm... where did you get that? From what I got is that Chronomancer is a master of time with past and future themes intact in it. If it wasn’t then it wouldn’t have had 4 wells which gave AoE effects to allies nor would it have had the ability to grant alacrity and quickness to allies like it did. I find it hard to believe ANet would have simply overlooked the amount of quickness a chrono could give out with SoI and traited version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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