Feedback on the State of the Mesmer [merged]

[Daishi.6027]

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > Basically if you were to compare thief and mesmer, they're very similar classes except for the fact that thief gives up its HP pool for the things it has, and mesmer GAINS clones instead of giving something up.

> >

> > Sure it has some advantages, but it's hard to argue that it's better than simple direct near instant damage that a thief has. People complain about the mesmer GS shatter burst, but thief on one set, can attempt a similar play more frequently that doesn't rely on an awkward bounce, and can do so without blowing a major tool that is part of your survivability.

> >

> > The problem I mostly have is people arguing that the nerfs that came for mes was not enough. Where on top of hard damage number nerfs a significant amount of might stacking was cut off which is more impactful than people realize and brings it in line with the passive sustain and survivability nerfs, and corresponding damage reductions.

> >

> > People will continue to complain about mirage's ability to doge/immune, but it's still the same few cooldowns majoirty of the cast has, and mirage unlike them uses those base doges for offensive purposes, and expends their entire pool of resources to amplify one of the cooldowns doge.

> >

> > vigor supports some of it, but is a grand total of 3 sec per shatter unless dueling line which some of the popular builds didn't even run.

> > This entire thing is a farce, people will learn to counter it with enough time and it wont seem like such a big deal, just like clasic 4/4/6 power shatter from wayyy back when everyone called it OP before learning how to doge it.

>

> (1)**Blowing your survivability, well I disagree with that completely. It's true in a direct sense - clones contribute to your survivability because it creates more confusion and more targets to tab through for your opponents.** (3)But it's not true in the grand picture, the clones you lost cost you almost nothing. In the worst case you were relying on the clones to confuse your opponent and they didn't, in the best case the clone wasn't confusing anyone and you shattered it. (2)**The passive damage from it is basically irrelevant - the main purpose of that clone in your build is to be shattered and it does relatively little outside of that role or the role of confusing your opponent.** (3)You will simply spam more clones, and you have enough evasion to not worry about losing those clones to begin with. They are, like I said, merely a free bonus for being a mesmer on top of all those defenses where thief lost a ton of HP and teamfight capability to get those evades.

 

(1) I was referring more to blink being a meaty cooldown that can be strong defensively as part of the gap closer when at any range 450 for jaunt is awkward, or needing it for key removal depending on the build vs match-up... Which either or is lot of the time.

 

(2) I'm well aware of their useless-ness outside a resource, that is the point I was making. If you agree then you should understand why it's not really something you should have to give up damage for; which was a significant point with the feb patch. Either way in Conquest, Stronghold, those 2v2 maps (no one plays cuz there is no queue for them), and 1v1 duels (an unsupported format); **Only bads lose to visual noise**. This is a noob curve EVERYONE eventually goes through, complains about being brokenly OP, then surpasses because the gimmick wears off quick. Maybe it screws with tab targeting a little, at worst. *These are absolutely the people we SHOULD NOT balance based on their opinion.*

 

(3) Clones are not super easy to produce, nor are they fun to. (fun in the context of going out of your way or popping cooldowns only for their sake, for shatter.)

Thief by comparison gets it's resource automatically or has skills and traits that create more. Thief can stay in stealth or get some distance and regain. Attacking when it suits them.

For Mesmers most need a target and line of sight. Along with that they are spawned by weapon skills where majority don't do anything of note, some skills with decent 'react-able to' cast times, and others with lengthy cooldowns.

Mesmers with main hand sword usually get 1 clone on mainhand, that spawns at your target and is easy to cleave, doing so will prevent the mesmer from swaping with. Majority of the offhands get 1 phantasm.

On Staff you get 2 phants and a clone, and 1 clone.

GS is 1 clone 1 phant unless traited.

 

On average that is a grand total of 2 illusions per weapon set, until traits.

As for traits virtually no one runs deceptive evasion anymore, and Self-deception gives you a clone on only jaunt cuz no one really runs the other deceptions seriously.

Unless chrono where you can do a combo twice and flood a room **you cannot just "spam" clones.** (and this thread is about mirage)

 

It might be tomato-tomahto and to closely comparing classes but as a resource that is required I think it's very inferior to the ini system, and just a bad version of the adrenaline system. You have to be doing something to someone already to get the resources to actually harm them, as opposed to you know, just harming them. The exception to this, being one fairly avoidable combo, that something like the dual sword/staff builds has 0 access to.

Plus although the damage especially on phants has gone up since the feb patch, outside of well placed shatters, it's damage is still out classed by war and thief. Both btw having access to strong unblockable hits, negating a major defense type. (of invuln/doge/blocks/immunities type things)

 

I don't know what you define as spamming but the numbers don't add up to what you suggest. Also if not being kind of inferior, it's at least fiddly, and it's still a kill-able resource.

Ultimately it's not a bonus, it's a burden with a fancy gimmick.

 

Since the feb patch's global buffs and reworking things yes I agree Mesmer doesn't give up anything stat wise to have clones, it used to, not anymore; that is because having clones as a resource has it's own drawbacks that by it's default nature demands something in exchange that would normally not be a problem for the rest of the roster.

[Imperadordf.2687]

Except nobody denies that Mesmer is OP.

[whoknocks.4935]

I had problems with scourges too before the patch nerfs. But at least against scourge you could and can disengage them and ignore them.

 

You can't kite or escape from a mesmer, in both spvp and wvw they can chase you in no time and kill you using half of your movement skill, and they still have another half if things goes wrong to get away instead.

 

And so fun how mesmers pm you: git gud you suck at your profession.

Right now mesmer is the lowest skill floor profession of all game.

 

It's broken in pvp since beta and never shifted out of the meta once. And NO even when dragonhunter was "unstoppable" still mesmer was the top 1vs1 profession with the only counter being dh. Doesn't mean it was bad.

 

Right now chronos or mirages have no problem destroying dh, which is not in the meta anyway.

[sephiroth.4217]

 

every second thread is about Mesmer....

 


 

[apharma.3741]

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> >Powershatter is the best in rekting newbies and bad player.

>

> Nah, the ai clutter paired with extremely high damage and defense is a bit too much. I understand, that after playing GW2 for so long you begin to appreciate its imbalance and consider it normal.

>

> In short, your perception is clouded.

>

>

 

Some of the things I saw in the footage:

 

Minion master necro.

Back peddling galore.

Pew pew ranger standing on a ledge and being ignored for minutes.

No one dodging mirror blade or any burst without stealth **when the mesmer was in front of them**.

Cap home, fight mid, never go far.

 

All this proves is that I was right, potato is what’s meta at the moment.

[Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046]

What i noticed:

Walks trough any type of well or field without taking damage, invulnerable to direct damage, immunity block & mobility whenever wherever.. always able to stomp (if target didn't die to your aa), random crits up to 10k on mirror or flurry, perfectly channelled fast and hard hitting AA on GS, random boon strip, stacking loads of boons and conditions within 2 seconds.

 

And then your opponents still have your class mechanics to deal with..

 

This is fine. =)

 

[Aza.2105]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> All this proves is that I was right, potato is what’s meta at the moment.

 

Potato has always been the meta. Its not the people its the game.

 

[aDemoNnDisguisE.8576]

Fighting Mes now is like fighting someone while they puke on you.

Even if you win, you still wish you hadn't fought them to begin with because it was a terrible experience.

 

If you are not going to do anything about the puss, pile of pink puke phantoms and clones that clutter my screen then at least take away most of Mes's evades, blocks and invulnerability.

 

How about linking the number of clones they have to the percent of invulnerability they get?

Full clones and phantoms = 0% invul

Some range in between...

0 clones and phantoms = 100% invul

 

And do the same with their evades... if they have any clones out then they can't evade anything because by having clones out... they are already "evading".

 

[Aza.2105]

I've never had any problem with mesmer until after the rework. The AI clutter is just way too much. Yeah burst damage and evades should be toned down but that is not mesmer exclusive, but a general problem with the game.

 

[aDemoNnDisguisE.8576]

> @"Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046" said:

> What i noticed:

> Walks trough any type of well or field without taking damage, invulnerable to direct damage, immunity block & mobility whenever wherever.. always able to stomp (if target didn't die to your aa), random crits up to 10k on mirror or flurry, perfectly channelled fast and hard hitting AA on GS, random boon strip, stacking loads of boons and conditions within 2 seconds.

>

> And then your opponents still have your class mechanics to deal with..

>

> This is fine. =)

>

 

Yep... Mes has a OP amount of invul, evades and blocks.

For nearly 90% of the fight you can't touch them for one BS reason or another.

Invul, block and evade need a nerf.

[aDemoNnDisguisE.8576]

Agree with OP.

 

Invuln, blocks and evades needs nerfing.

[Aza.2105]

*Merged this post with the original one.*

[aDemoNnDisguisE.8576]

> @"zoopop.5630" said:

> Dead weight if u aint got 2 mesmer on the team now days...

 

Yep... every match recently. If my team had 2 Mesmers we won.

 

The matches that have had 4 Mesmers... those team fights were horrible with clones EVERYWHERE!!!

Anet tone this shit down already!!!

[aDemoNnDisguisE.8576]

Agree with OP.

Mes needs mor nerfs.

[viquing.8254]

You want more salt ?

Bring back clones on death traits (aka noobspammers eater) B)

[zoopop.5630]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"zoopop.5630" said:

> > Dead weight if u aint got 2 mesmer on the team now days...

>

>

>

> I guess carried by Frosty?

>

> Edit: Dunno if the link works as on tablet but it’s Teapots AT vs double mesmer.

>

> Spoiler: double mesmer didn’t win.

 

Na double mesmer , Eu slowly starting to do the same crap, Black Jack last night Pug AT's with randoms and ran double Mesmer made it to finals ONLY to lose to another double mesmer comp with a fb..... issue why he lost is because they didn't have a fb/their necro was brain dead.

 

and link didn't work for me but thx though.

[Vyrulisse.1246]

> @"Exalted Quality.8534" said:

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" any chance mesmers are going to get toned down BEFORE the season starts? I realize this out out of step with your normal balancing cycle but mesmers are way out of hand brah. If 4-5 mesmers in every match doesn’t tell you anything...

>

> It would be a travesty if you allow this circus to continue until midway through S11.

 

They will let another season go down the drain. Everyone told them it was a mistake to let the Mesmer get off relatively free when they were previewing this patch but they didn't listen and now here we are. So out of touch sometimes.

[Malediktus.9250]

I thought Vaans was dishonored for 3 months, why do I see him on stream

[Elxdark.9702]

oh look he got destroyed against actually good players what a surprise.

 

nothing against him but can we stop with this mes stuff, we all know it's broken but you don't need to make 5 threads per day about it.

[bravan.3876]

First what happend when i pop in was during him playing phantasm chrono spam with chaosline (what indeed is one of the op and ez builds mesmer has for 2 reasons: choasline is passive carry combined with npc carry) and then crying about how lame condibuilds are after going down. That is somehow funny.

 

Btw how many threads will you open about mesmers? You must rly hate them... sad is that you seems not even to have enough knowledge of the class to discern between different builds and which builds are op and which not. The pure glass shatter mirage with offhand focus (or even torch) in your other thread is not op at all.

[Exalted Quality.8534]

> @"Vyrulisse.1246" said:

> > @"Exalted Quality.8534" said:

> > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" any chance mesmers are going to get toned down BEFORE the season starts? I realize this out out of step with your normal balancing cycle but mesmers are way out of hand brah. If 4-5 mesmers in every match doesn’t tell you anything...

> >

> > It would be a travesty if you allow this circus to continue until midway through S11.

>

> They will let another season go down the drain. Everyone told them it was a mistake to let the Mesmer get off relatively free when they were previewing this patch but they didn't listen and now here we are. So out of touch sometimes.

 

sigh...it's really frustrating when people ask for opinons and then totally ignore good feedback. many people suggested changes on rev, but those were ignored too. rev is a different sad story all together...anets most reviled class vs. mesmer, anets baby. the disparity between mesmers and revs is a good meme/indicator as to how poor the balance is.

[Ario.8964]

> @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> oh look he got destroyed against actually good players what a surprise.

>

> nothing against him but can we stop with this mes stuff, we all know it's broken but you don't need to make 5 threads per day about it.

 

You do realize he isn't complaining about mesmer yeah? He's linking the twitch of a good player for other people to enjoy, what's wrong with that?

[Elxdark.9702]

> @"Ario.8964" said:

> > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > oh look he got destroyed against actually good players what a surprise.

> >

> > nothing against him but can we stop with this mes stuff, we all know it's broken but you don't need to make 5 threads per day about it.

>

> You do realize he isn't complaining about mesmer yeah? He's linking the twitch of a good player for other people to enjoy, what's wrong with that?

 

He did the same yesterday linking a stream of Blackjack playing mesmer while he's a guardian main, if he wants to prove mesmer is broken this is not the right way to do it.

[Velran.1052]

You can literally see the mesmer standing on his continuum split... And 4 of the illusions are caught in the middle of their death animation. GJ cherry picking the exact moment. How do you people even pvp when you cant even tell a mesmer from the illusions??

[Ario.8964]

> @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > oh look he got destroyed against actually good players what a surprise.

> > >

> > > nothing against him but can we stop with this mes stuff, we all know it's broken but you don't need to make 5 threads per day about it.

> >

> > You do realize he isn't complaining about mesmer yeah? He's linking the twitch of a good player for other people to enjoy, what's wrong with that?

>

> He did the same yesterday linking a stream of Blackjack playing mesmer while he's a guardian main, if he wants to prove mesmer is broken this is not the right way to do it.

 

Or he thinks blackjack is doing a good job and is promoting the last of the few even decent players left. He and I both know shorts and play with him a ton so I'm 95% sure he's doing this to promote a friend who likes to showcase his gameplay. Nobody needs to prove mesmer is broken cause everyone knows it, I see this and the blackjack link as promotion of fellow players and commendation for their play, but to each their own I suppose.