Feedback on the State of the Mesmer [merged]

[Aza.2105]

> @"Velran.1052" said:

> You can literally see the mesmer standing on his continuum split... And 4 of the illusions are caught in the middle of their death animation. GJ cherry picking the exact moment. How do you people even pvp when you cant even tell a mesmer from the illusions??

 

Sounds like you are making excuses.

 

[bravan.3876]

> @"Ario.8964" said:

> > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > oh look he got destroyed against actually good players what a surprise.

> > > >

> > > > nothing against him but can we stop with this mes stuff, we all know it's broken but you don't need to make 5 threads per day about it.

> > >

> > > You do realize he isn't complaining about mesmer yeah? He's linking the twitch of a good player for other people to enjoy, what's wrong with that?

> >

> > He did the same yesterday linking a stream of Blackjack playing mesmer while he's a guardian main, if he wants to prove mesmer is broken this is not the right way to do it.

>

> Or he thinks blackjack is doing a good job and is promoting the last of the few even decent players left. He and I both know shorts and play with him a ton so I'm 95% sure he's doing this to promote a friend who likes to showcase his gameplay. Nobody needs to prove mesmer is broken cause everyone knows it, I see this and the blackjack link as promotion of fellow players and commendation for their play, but to each their own I suppose.

 

No he was not only posting the thread with black Jack he clearly also complained about how ez a guy not even main mesmer destroy ppl, during showing unranked NA footage with ppl backpeddle and ignoring him complete. Mesmer is broken is even in the thread title. Black Jack was not even playing an op build, he just got free kills because of very not so good opponents. These kind of footage proves nothing about how op something is. And ppl rly should l2discern between different builds. This mesmer here playing chrono phantasm spam with chaosline what ofc is a broken build still.

[Ario.8964]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > > oh look he got destroyed against actually good players what a surprise.

> > > > >

> > > > > nothing against him but can we stop with this mes stuff, we all know it's broken but you don't need to make 5 threads per day about it.

> > > >

> > > > You do realize he isn't complaining about mesmer yeah? He's linking the twitch of a good player for other people to enjoy, what's wrong with that?

> > >

> > > He did the same yesterday linking a stream of Blackjack playing mesmer while he's a guardian main, if he wants to prove mesmer is broken this is not the right way to do it.

> >

> > Or he thinks blackjack is doing a good job and is promoting the last of the few even decent players left. He and I both know shorts and play with him a ton so I'm 95% sure he's doing this to promote a friend who likes to showcase his gameplay. Nobody needs to prove mesmer is broken cause everyone knows it, I see this and the blackjack link as promotion of fellow players and commendation for their play, but to each their own I suppose.

>

> No he was not only posting the thread with black Jack he clearly also complained about how ez a guy not even main mesmer destroy ppl, during showing unranked NA footage with ppl backbaddle and ignoring him complete. Black Jack was not even playing an op build, he just got free kills because of very not so good opponents. These kind of footage proves nothing about how op something is. And ppl rly should l2discern between different builds. This mesmer here playing chrono phantasm spam with chaosline what ofc is a broken build still.

 

Well then, I see I have made an error about the Blackjack (I abbreviated and filters didn't like my abbreviation XD) thread. This one I stand by what I said, I don't think the OP's intention with this thread was to complain about mesmer even if the other threads were for that.

[bravan.3876]

> @"aDemoNnDisguisE.8576" said:

> > @"Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046" said:

> > What i noticed:

> > Walks trough any type of well or field without taking damage, invulnerable to direct damage, immunity block & mobility whenever wherever.. always able to stomp (if target didn't die to your aa), random crits up to 10k on mirror or flurry, perfectly channelled fast and hard hitting AA on GS, random boon strip, stacking loads of boons and conditions within 2 seconds.

> >

> > And then your opponents still have your class mechanics to deal with..

> >

> > This is fine. =)

> >

>

> Yep... Mes has a OP amount of invul, evades and blocks.

> For nearly 90% of the fight you can't touch them for one BS reason or another.

> Invul, block and evade need a nerf.

 

<

oops answered in wrong thread :) but i can say it again: mesmer has a lot of builds, some are op some are not. The focus (or troch) offhand pure glass shatter mirage in this thread is not op, the chrono phantasm spam with chaoline in his new thread is op. Pls l2 discern between builds.

[bravan.3876]

> @"Ario.8964" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > > > oh look he got destroyed against actually good players what a surprise.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > nothing against him but can we stop with this mes stuff, we all know it's broken but you don't need to make 5 threads per day about it.

> > > > >

> > > > > You do realize he isn't complaining about mesmer yeah? He's linking the twitch of a good player for other people to enjoy, what's wrong with that?

> > > >

> > > > He did the same yesterday linking a stream of Blackjack playing mesmer while he's a guardian main, if he wants to prove mesmer is broken this is not the right way to do it.

> > >

> > > Or he thinks blackjack is doing a good job and is promoting the last of the few even decent players left. He and I both know shorts and play with him a ton so I'm 95% sure he's doing this to promote a friend who likes to showcase his gameplay. Nobody needs to prove mesmer is broken cause everyone knows it, I see this and the blackjack link as promotion of fellow players and commendation for their play, but to each their own I suppose.

> >

> > No he was not only posting the thread with black Jack he clearly also complained about how ez a guy not even main mesmer destroy ppl, during showing unranked NA footage with ppl backbaddle and ignoring him complete. Black Jack was not even playing an op build, he just got free kills because of very not so good opponents. These kind of footage proves nothing about how op something is. And ppl rly should l2discern between different builds. This mesmer here playing chrono phantasm spam with chaosline what ofc is a broken build still.

>

> Well then, I see I have made an error about the kitten thread. This one I stand by what I said, I don't think the OP's intention with this thread was to complain about mesmer even if the other threads were for that.

 

Mesmer main CLAPPING everyone in unranked may not be such an obvious complain like" mesmer is broken" but the complain is still there, you know, in between the lines... and i don't even need to mention the context of him posting not the first time complaining threads about mesmer with a link to twitch. So pls...

[Ario.8964]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > > > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > > > > oh look he got destroyed against actually good players what a surprise.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > nothing against him but can we stop with this mes stuff, we all know it's broken but you don't need to make 5 threads per day about it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You do realize he isn't complaining about mesmer yeah? He's linking the twitch of a good player for other people to enjoy, what's wrong with that?

> > > > >

> > > > > He did the same yesterday linking a stream of Blackjack playing mesmer while he's a guardian main, if he wants to prove mesmer is broken this is not the right way to do it.

> > > >

> > > > Or he thinks blackjack is doing a good job and is promoting the last of the few even decent players left. He and I both know shorts and play with him a ton so I'm 95% sure he's doing this to promote a friend who likes to showcase his gameplay. Nobody needs to prove mesmer is broken cause everyone knows it, I see this and the blackjack link as promotion of fellow players and commendation for their play, but to each their own I suppose.

> > >

> > > No he was not only posting the thread with black Jack he clearly also complained about how ez a guy not even main mesmer destroy ppl, during showing unranked NA footage with ppl backbaddle and ignoring him complete. Black Jack was not even playing an op build, he just got free kills because of very not so good opponents. These kind of footage proves nothing about how op something is. And ppl rly should l2discern between different builds. This mesmer here playing chrono phantasm spam with chaosline what ofc is a broken build still.

> >

> > Well then, I see I have made an error about the kitten thread. This one I stand by what I said, I don't think the OP's intention with this thread was to complain about mesmer even if the other threads were for that.

>

> Mesmer main CLAPPING everyone in unranked may not be such an obvious complain like" mesmer is broken" but the complain is still there, you know, in between the lines... and i don't even need to mention the context of him posting not the first time complaining threads about mesmer with a link to twitch. So pls...

 

Wouldn't you use terminology like that to promote a friend's twitch? That makes them sounds really good and successful, that's much more appealing than "Average Joe playing mesmer in pvp"

[Legatus.3608]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > Basically if you were to compare thief and mesmer, they're very similar classes except for the fact that thief gives up its HP pool for the things it has, and mesmer GAINS clones instead of giving something up.

> > >

> > > Sure it has some advantages, but it's hard to argue that it's better than simple direct near instant damage that a thief has. People complain about the mesmer GS shatter burst, but thief on one set, can attempt a similar play more frequently that doesn't rely on an awkward bounce, and can do so without blowing a major tool that is part of your survivability.

> > >

> > > The problem I mostly have is people arguing that the nerfs that came for mes was not enough. Where on top of hard damage number nerfs a significant amount of might stacking was cut off which is more impactful than people realize and brings it in line with the passive sustain and survivability nerfs, and corresponding damage reductions.

> > >

> > > People will continue to complain about mirage's ability to doge/immune, but it's still the same few cooldowns majoirty of the cast has, and mirage unlike them uses those base doges for offensive purposes, and expends their entire pool of resources to amplify one of the cooldowns doge.

> > >

> > > vigor supports some of it, but is a grand total of 3 sec per shatter unless dueling line which some of the popular builds didn't even run.

> > > This entire thing is a farce, people will learn to counter it with enough time and it wont seem like such a big deal, just like clasic 4/4/6 power shatter from wayyy back when everyone called it OP before learning how to doge it.

> >

> > (1)**Blowing your survivability, well I disagree with that completely. It's true in a direct sense - clones contribute to your survivability because it creates more confusion and more targets to tab through for your opponents.** (3)But it's not true in the grand picture, the clones you lost cost you almost nothing. In the worst case you were relying on the clones to confuse your opponent and they didn't, in the best case the clone wasn't confusing anyone and you shattered it. (2)**The passive damage from it is basically irrelevant - the main purpose of that clone in your build is to be shattered and it does relatively little outside of that role or the role of confusing your opponent.** (3)You will simply spam more clones, and you have enough evasion to not worry about losing those clones to begin with. They are, like I said, merely a free bonus for being a mesmer on top of all those defenses where thief lost a ton of HP and teamfight capability to get those evades.

>

> (1) I was referring more to blink being a meaty cooldown that can be strong defensively as part of the gap closer when at any range 450 for jaunt is awkward, or needing it for key removal depending on the build vs match-up... Which either or is lot of the time.

>

> (2) I'm well aware of their useless-ness outside a resource, that is what the point I was making, but if you agree then you should understand why it's not really something you should have to give up damage for, which was a significant point with the feb patch. Either way in Conquest, Stronghold, those 2v2 maps (no one plays cuz there is no queue for them), and 1v1 duels (an unsupported format); Only bads lose to visual noise. This is a noob curve EVERYONE eventually goes through, complains about being brokenly OP, then surpasses because the gimmick wears off quick. Maybe it screws with tab targeting a little, at worst. These are absolutely the people we SHOULD NOT balance based on their opinion.

>

> (3) Clones are not super easy to produce, nor are they fun to.

> Thief by comparison gets it's resource automatically or has skills and traits that create more. Thief can stay in stealth or get some distance and regain. Attacking when it suits them.

> For Mesmers most need a target and line of sight. Along with that they are spawned by weapon skills where majority don't do anything of note, some skills with decent 'react-able to' cast times, and others with lengthy cooldowns.

> Mesmers with main hand sword usually get 1 clone on mainhand, that spawns at your target and is easy to cleave, doing so will prevent the mesmer from swaping with. Majority of the offhands get 1 phantasm.

> On Staff you get 2 phants and a clone, and 1 clone.

> GS is 1 clone 1 phant unless traited.

>

> On average that is a grand total of 2 illusions per weapon set, until traits.

> As for traits virtually no one runs deceptive evasion anymore, and Self-deception gives you a clone on only jaunt cuz no one really runs the other deceptions seriously.

> Unless chrono where you can do a combo twice and flood a room **you cannot just "spam" clones.** (and this thread is about mirage)

>

> It might be tomato-tomahto and to closely comparing classes but as a resource that is required I think it's very inferior to the ini system, and just a bad version of the adrenaline system. You have to be doing something to someone already to get the resources to actually harm them, as opposed to you know, just harming them. The exception to this, being one fairly avoidable combo, that something like the dual sword/staff builds has 0 access to.

> Plus although the damage especially on phants has gone up since the feb patch, outside of well placed shatters, it's damage is still out classed by war and thief. Both btw having access to strong unblockable hits, negating a major defense type. (of invuln/doge/blocks/immunities type things)

>

> I don't know what you define as spamming but the numbers don't add up to what you suggest. Also if not being kind of inferior, it's at least fiddly, and it's still a kill-able resource.

> Ultimately it's not a bonus, it's a burden with a fancy gimmick.

>

> Since the feb patch's global buffs and reworking things yes I agree Mesmer doesn't give up anything stat wise to have clones, it used to, not anymore; that is because having clones as a resource has it's own drawbacks that by it's default nature demands something in exchange that would normally not be a problem for the rest of the roster.

 

You need to make your points more concise. I'm not going to spend decades deciphering your paragraphs, and a lot of the further comments you're typing don't match with earlier comments. You need to be consistent as well.

 

1. Your original comment was that thief can mimick mesmer burst but without blowing its defensive cooldowns to do so. I commented that clones aren't much of a defensive cooldown and are more of a constant in any mesmer build. Now you're saying you were talking about blink, which has really nothing to do with any of this.

2. The point isn't that you need to give up damage for clones, the point is that thief gives up HP and teamfighting for mobility/dodging and mesmer gains clones instead of giving anything up for its mobility/dodging.

3. Yes, they are super easy to produce depending on build or timing, and it doesn't matter whether they're fun, they exist regardless.

 

As for clones dying to aoe, well, that means they did their job soaking damage instead of the mesmer, does it not? You traded ̶d̶a̶m̶a̶g̶e̶ shatter potential for your own survival in that instance. A thief would just be on the floor bleeding out because he for some reason happened to be standing in a circle for a second too long.

[ezd.6359]

It is time to ban this spammer.

[Kanok.3027]

> @"Aza.2105" said:

>

>

> > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> >Moa was a noob killer

>

> Moa wasn't a noob killer, it was a pvp killer. In no competitive game should a player ever lose control of their character. That is why it was bad.

>

>

 

You've never played Aion, have you? The different iterations of Fear from the Spiritmaster class saw people running away and literally being unable to do anything unless the debuff was cleansed by a class that could, which was any support class with said ability. Honestly, Moa is not that bad since it doesn't last nearly as long as Fear did in Aion. Seriously, a near 15 second fear where you could do nothing and were at the mercy of a Spiritmaster that could fear-lock you with several fears on short cooldowns was awful, but people made it work. Moa is no different, except that the CD on it is very, very high and the time on the condition is very low.

[bravan.3876]

> @"Ario.8964" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > > > > > oh look he got destroyed against actually good players what a surprise.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > nothing against him but can we stop with this mes stuff, we all know it's broken but you don't need to make 5 threads per day about it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You do realize he isn't complaining about mesmer yeah? He's linking the twitch of a good player for other people to enjoy, what's wrong with that?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > He did the same yesterday linking a stream of Blackjack playing mesmer while he's a guardian main, if he wants to prove mesmer is broken this is not the right way to do it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Or he thinks blackjack is doing a good job and is promoting the last of the few even decent players left. He and I both know shorts and play with him a ton so I'm 95% sure he's doing this to promote a friend who likes to showcase his gameplay. Nobody needs to prove mesmer is broken cause everyone knows it, I see this and the blackjack link as promotion of fellow players and commendation for their play, but to each their own I suppose.

> > > >

> > > > No he was not only posting the thread with black Jack he clearly also complained about how ez a guy not even main mesmer destroy ppl, during showing unranked NA footage with ppl backbaddle and ignoring him complete. Black Jack was not even playing an op build, he just got free kills because of very not so good opponents. These kind of footage proves nothing about how op something is. And ppl rly should l2discern between different builds. This mesmer here playing chrono phantasm spam with chaosline what ofc is a broken build still.

> > >

> > > Well then, I see I have made an error about the kitten thread. This one I stand by what I said, I don't think the OP's intention with this thread was to complain about mesmer even if the other threads were for that.

> >

> > Mesmer main CLAPPING everyone in unranked may not be such an obvious complain like" mesmer is broken" but the complain is still there, you know, in between the lines... and i don't even need to mention the context of him posting not the first time complaining threads about mesmer with a link to twitch. So pls...

>

> Wouldn't you use terminology like that to promote a friend's twitch? That makes them sounds really good and successful, that's much more appealing than "Average Joe playing mesmer in pvp"

 

Oh pls come on, its getting ridiculous. My words stand.

[Aza.2105]

> @"Kanok.3027" said:

> > @"Aza.2105" said:

> >

> >

> > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > >Moa was a noob killer

> >

> > Moa wasn't a noob killer, it was a pvp killer. In no competitive game should a player ever lose control of their character. That is why it was bad.

> >

> >

>

> You've never played Aion, have you? The different iterations of Fear from the Spiritmaster class saw people running away and literally being unable to do anything unless the debuff was cleansed by a class that could, which was any support class with said ability. Honestly, Moa is not that bad since it doesn't last nearly as long as Fear did in Aion. Seriously, a near 15 second fear where you could do nothing and were at the mercy of a Spiritmaster that could fear-lock you with several fears on short cooldowns was awful, but people made it work. Moa is no different, except that the CD on it is very, very high and the time on the condition is very low.

 

I played Aion for a long time, I was a Templar main! Yeah SM fear was op as hell.

[ezd.6359]

About "pictures". Real mesmer is "5", 1-2 are bugs (sometime shattered clones don't dissappear). And i believe you just catchd a short moment when 2 warlocks transform to clones (died) (probably why 1-2 just killed themselves), and 2 new warlocks just respawned. Also, this mesmer uses continuum split, it is MAIN CRONOMANCER FEATURE, it was designed exactly for such things "use skills then use them again". Nothing is wrong on this picture.

[Ario.8964]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > > > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > > > > > > oh look he got destroyed against actually good players what a surprise.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > nothing against him but can we stop with this mes stuff, we all know it's broken but you don't need to make 5 threads per day about it.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You do realize he isn't complaining about mesmer yeah? He's linking the twitch of a good player for other people to enjoy, what's wrong with that?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > He did the same yesterday linking a stream of Blackjack playing mesmer while he's a guardian main, if he wants to prove mesmer is broken this is not the right way to do it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or he thinks blackjack is doing a good job and is promoting the last of the few even decent players left. He and I both know shorts and play with him a ton so I'm 95% sure he's doing this to promote a friend who likes to showcase his gameplay. Nobody needs to prove mesmer is broken cause everyone knows it, I see this and the blackjack link as promotion of fellow players and commendation for their play, but to each their own I suppose.

> > > > >

> > > > > No he was not only posting the thread with black Jack he clearly also complained about how ez a guy not even main mesmer destroy ppl, during showing unranked NA footage with ppl backbaddle and ignoring him complete. Black Jack was not even playing an op build, he just got free kills because of very not so good opponents. These kind of footage proves nothing about how op something is. And ppl rly should l2discern between different builds. This mesmer here playing chrono phantasm spam with chaosline what ofc is a broken build still.

> > > >

> > > > Well then, I see I have made an error about the kitten thread. This one I stand by what I said, I don't think the OP's intention with this thread was to complain about mesmer even if the other threads were for that.

> > >

> > > Mesmer main CLAPPING everyone in unranked may not be such an obvious complain like" mesmer is broken" but the complain is still there, you know, in between the lines... and i don't even need to mention the context of him posting not the first time complaining threads about mesmer with a link to twitch. So pls...

> >

> > Wouldn't you use terminology like that to promote a friend's twitch? That makes them sounds really good and successful, that's much more appealing than "Average Joe playing mesmer in pvp"

>

> Oh pls come on, its getting ridiculous. My words stand.

 

That's fine, I honestly couldn't care any less about this thread or it's intentions. I'm more arguing against the instant condemnation of a thread (regardless of it's intention) based on the fact that they've complained about something a few times recently. Doesn't do anything good and it shuts down a possibly constructive or promotional thread. Nowhere does he complain about mesmer in this specific post so why not use that as a way to just enjoy watching/ reviewing someone's play instead of instantly turning it into a salt fest of "You need to stop posting"

 

Granted most of what I've said in this thread was trolling or not serious but I suppose there's a lesson that can be taught here...

[Ario.8964]

> @"aDemoNnDisguisE.8576" said:

> Fighting Mes now is like fighting someone while they puke on you.

> Even if you win, you still wish you hadn't fought them to begin with because it was a terrible experience.

>

> If you are not going to do anything about the kitten, pile of pink puke phantoms and clones that clutter my screen then at least take away most of Mes's evades, blocks and invulnerability.

>

> How about linking the number of clones they have to the percent of invulnerability they get?

> Full clones and phantoms = 0% invul

> Some range in between...

> 0 clones and phantoms = 100% invul

>

> And do the same with their evades... if they have any clones out then they can't evade anything because by having clones out... they are already "evading".

>

 

What specifically would you like to change? List skills, traits, etc. that you want changed and give us the changes you want. Don't say "nerf X" and not have any listed things that are in need of change. What is it specifically that is making them so strong? Do they have too many boons produced from BD? Should phantasms just be untargetable to reduce the targeting problem? What skills are doing too much damage? What specific invulns are you addressing when you bring up that problem? Is this a chronomancer problem? A mirage problem? What weapon sets are causing this to be a problem? How do you expect mesmer to perform and what role should they perform in your opinion after all your desired changes happen?

 

This is the stuff you need to address, otherwise you have just wasted more screen space for everyone here

[ezd.6359]

> @"Ario.8964" said:

> > @"aDemoNnDisguisE.8576" said:

> > Fighting Mes now is like fighting someone while they puke on you.

> > Even if you win, you still wish you hadn't fought them to begin with because it was a terrible experience.

> >

> > If you are not going to do anything about the kitten, pile of pink puke phantoms and clones that clutter my screen then at least take away most of Mes's evades, blocks and invulnerability.

> >

> > How about linking the number of clones they have to the percent of invulnerability they get?

> > Full clones and phantoms = 0% invul

> > Some range in between...

> > 0 clones and phantoms = 100% invul

> >

> > And do the same with their evades... if they have any clones out then they can't evade anything because by having clones out... they are already "evading".

> >

>

> What specifically would you like to change? List skills, traits, etc. that you want changed and give us the changes you want. Don't say "nerf X" and not have any listed things that are in need of change. What is it specifically that is making them so strong? Do they have too many boons produced from BD? Should phantasms just be untargetable to reduce the targeting problem? What skills are doing too much damage? What specific invulns are you addressing when you bring up that problem? Is this a chronomancer problem? A mirage problem? What weapon sets are causing this to be a problem? How do you expect mesmer to perform and what role should they perform in your opinion after all your desired changes happen?

>

> This is the stuff you need to address, otherwise you have just wasted more screen space for everyone here

 

He knows nothing about mesmer. Read his comments https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/profile/comments/52035/aDemoNnDisguisE.8576 he just spam same things and update topics with useless comments.

[zoopop.5630]

> @"Ario.8964" said:

> > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > oh look he got destroyed against actually good players what a surprise.

> > > >

> > > > nothing against him but can we stop with this mes stuff, we all know it's broken but you don't need to make 5 threads per day about it.

> > >

> > > You do realize he isn't complaining about mesmer yeah? He's linking the twitch of a good player for other people to enjoy, what's wrong with that?

> >

> > He did the same yesterday linking a stream of Blackjack playing mesmer while he's a guardian main, if he wants to prove mesmer is broken this is not the right way to do it.

>

> Or he thinks blackjack is doing a good job and is promoting the last of the few even decent players left. He and I both know shorts and play with him a ton so I'm 95% sure he's doing this to promote a friend who likes to showcase his gameplay. Nobody needs to prove mesmer is broken cause everyone knows it, I see this and the blackjack link as promotion of fellow players and commendation for their play, but to each their own I suppose.

 

promoting a way for people to tune into someone channel and having some absurd title is what baits people into checking it out.... If you honestly think this and the black jack post i made were "complaints" then you clearly missed out on my actually complaint about the class. It ended up reaching over 6 pages because it was an actual complaint about it.

 

Thanks for checking on shorts and black jack the goal of viewers was reached and it's all we wanted.

[Crab Fear.1624]

You know there are people in these mesmer topic threads that claim to be "not a mesmer main", but their comment history is 75+% on memser topics. I guess they are not mesmers mains?...

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> I thought Vaans was dishonored for 3 months, why do I see him on stream

 

He sold his main account and plays on new one.

[bravan.3876]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> You know there are people in these mesmer topic threads that claim to be "not a mesmer main", but their comment history is 75+% on memser topics. I guess they are not mesmers mains?...

 

It is 75% on mesmer topic because 75% of the forum is crying about mesmer-threads and that for months and the exaggerated shitstorm just triggers me. I am not mesmer main but i like the class and play it sometimes. I just don't like unlogic and a balance built by very not so good player using all their time crying in forums instead of using the time for trying to improve. I find it annoying myself to play versus the meta phantasmspam builds i don't defend any of these lame builds but ppl should discern between different builds and not just cry about everything without even enough clue of the class. What you think will happen when all these overcries make the few builds which are not op and need skill already unplayable even for the best mesmers? Just all of them will switch to something lame, so you just create a even more lame mesmer community. Just address the real issues the real op things and not unreflected everything.

 

edit: and when you even take the time to check my post history then check the comments i get attacked by mesmer mains for stating what nerfs i would like to see. i clearly still post less than all the not mesmer main+mesmer hater guys do since months here so pls...

[EpicTurtle.8571]

Half of those illusions are about to disappear, misrepresentation is super cool.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

What?!?!?! You mean the thing Thief has been able to do since launch?!?!?

 

Few tips, Mesmer only has 3 uninterruptable sources of stealth, each one lasts 3 seconds, so you're exaggerating. EM gives exhaustion now so a lot of people are ditching it since it's about as gimped as could be. Reflects are tied to evasions which has an ICD. Daze is only spammable with Mirage sword, stop exaggerating. Invuln happens for about 4 seconds every 50 seconds, stop exaggerating.

 

We get it, you don't like the purple butterfly class, stop exaggerating.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

Infinite clone spam? Where? Give it to me! Legit you're just warping the fact that phantasms turn into clones to suit your narrative.

[Imperadordf.2687]

As most of you already know, Mesmer is considered one of the, if not “the”, best classes around. We see a lot of threads daily complaining about evades, blocks, invulnerabilities, massive damage etc. But most of these threads are useless because they add nothing to the topic. I think it’s time to say what needs changing and what doesn’t.

 

Starting with;

 

**Chaos**

 

Chaos traitline is the defensive and boon-focused traitline of Mesmer, and has a lot of boon stacking tied to it. It has more than decent amount of Protection - Regen application, and can provide other boons. The biggest issue of this traitline is Bountiful Disillusionment - Chaotic Persistence - Descent into Madness combo. That provides so much boons and gives boon duration through Chaotic Persistence, allowing the Mesmer to keep up other boons such as Might and Vigor.

 

With the recent changes I think this traitline is more in line but still needs little tweaks.

 

**Dueling**

 

This might be one of the most balanced trailtines in the game, it has some nice things in it, but the other traitlines provide more utility because of the Meta we have right now. It provides Fury - Vigor and enchances critical hits, but other builds can keep those up and grant extra things aswell.

 

**Inspiration**

 

This traitline is support and bunking focused, has cleanses, heals and some boons. Used with Chronomancer-Bunker builds. I think it’s balanced. Not the best, not the worst.

 

**Domination**

 

This traitline is focused on interrupts and vulnerability, and has probably the most annoying trait, ever.

 

*Confounding Suggestions.* This trait inflicts stun whenever you daze a target. Mesmer has a lot of access to daze through Diversion, Mantra of Pain, Mirage Thrust etc.

 

What I would do with this trait is either replace Confounding Suggestions with something else, or lower the chance of inflicting stun.

 

Confounding Suggestions combined with Mental Anguish and some burst through Greatsword, makes a strong combo and it’s almost uncounterable because if the Mesmer shatters with 2-3 clones, they apply stun 2-3 times. So even if you stunbreak through the first, you’ll probably going to get caught second time and get bursted.

 

**Illusions**

 

This traitline is focused on Shatters and clones, improving damage and utility.

 

The traitline is mostly balanced but - Persistence of Memory combined with the crazy boon stacking from Chaos line, the quickness and Might Mesmer gains from Phantasmal Haste and Phantasmal Force, the Damage boost Mesmer gets from Compounding Power and the phantasm-spam we have right now, it is too powerful.

 

The right choice to balance this would probably be;

-Adding an Internal Cooldown to Persistence of Memory

-Making Persistence of Memory transfer limited amount of boons

 

The latter seems more effective and wouldn’t cripple the Mesmer players with another Internal Cooldown.

 

**Chronomancer**

 

The only problem of the traitline is Chronophantasma, which spawns another phantasm when you cast one. It’s powerful because of Persistence of Memory or if the Chronomancer is fully offensive, it can output massive amounts of damage. The best example would be iDisenchanter.

 

The best fixes would be;

-Making Chronophantasma recharge that phantasm skill, instead of passively spawning it. This would add more active gameplay and reduce the visual noise.

-Adding a cap of maximum 3 *active* phantasms. Now by active phantasms I mean newer ones won’t replace the older ones. Instead, they will go in a queue. For example, I cast iBerserker on Greatsword and swap to Staff, then cast iWarlock. This would spawn 6 (8 if Imagined Burden is traited) phantasms and would go over the cap. Now with my idea, first 3 phantasms will perform their attack, and turn to clones. But I casted 6? Other ones will spawn *after* the first 3 executes their attacks, again, reducing the visual noise.

 

**Mirage**

 

“Tons of blocks, invulns, evades..” We see those everytime in forums. Well the Mesmer needs *a lot* of things combined to do that.

 

The problems with the traitline;

 

Self-Deception : This provides an instant extra clone from Jaunt (which is the only Deception skill people use). Making the life easier for Shatter builds. The correct fix would be making the clone spawned spawn dazed. Like 0,25 seconds.

 

Renewing Oasis : This basically is permanent Regen if you have Staff. It also gives condition duration reduction so if the Mesmer isn’t against a Scourge, this trait is a straight up %20 damage reduction against condition builds. The correct fix would be lowering it to %12-15.

 

Nomad’s Endurance : Permanent Vigor and permanent +150 Condition Damage. Correct fix is changing the numbers.

 

#Elusive Mind

 

The infamous trait. Having an on-demand stunbreak with 10 second cooldown (7,5 with Vigor, which is mostly kept up) is overpowered.

 

The problem is, this trait can’t be balanced without destroying it, just like Sand Savant. Mesmer players have been saying that the trait would be overpowered and should be replaced since the beta weekends.

 

It is a very forgiving trait because even the Mesmer gets hit by a well-timed stun, this is a get out of jail free card.

 

But Exhaustion was the wrong answer. Exhaustion is an unfun mechanic. We saw that with the Unhindered Combatant change. The problem is Mirage has no access to direct endurance gain like Daredevil and Mirage is still powerful and will still be powerful because Mirage Cloak can be casted while stunned. That rends any well timed crowd control skill useless.

 

I can think of some fixes, but they’d make Elusive Mind obsolete.

 

-Removing the Stunbreak. Easy and simple.

 

-To compensate (optimal), the Mirage clears a condition whenever it gains Mirage Cloak.

 

I’m open to feedback.

[Daishi.6027]

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > > Basically if you were to compare thief and mesmer, they're very similar classes except for the fact that thief gives up its HP pool for the things it has, and mesmer GAINS clones instead of giving something up.

> > > >

> > > > Sure it has some advantages, but it's hard to argue that it's better than simple direct near instant damage that a thief has. People complain about the mesmer GS shatter burst, but thief on one set, can attempt a similar play more frequently that doesn't rely on an awkward bounce, and can do so without blowing a major tool that is part of your survivability.

> > > >

> > > > The problem I mostly have is people arguing that the nerfs that came for mes was not enough. Where on top of hard damage number nerfs a significant amount of might stacking was cut off which is more impactful than people realize and brings it in line with the passive sustain and survivability nerfs, and corresponding damage reductions.

> > > >

> > > > People will continue to complain about mirage's ability to doge/immune, but it's still the same few cooldowns majoirty of the cast has, and mirage unlike them uses those base doges for offensive purposes, and expends their entire pool of resources to amplify one of the cooldowns doge.

> > > >

> > > > vigor supports some of it, but is a grand total of 3 sec per shatter unless dueling line which some of the popular builds didn't even run.

> > > > This entire thing is a farce, people will learn to counter it with enough time and it wont seem like such a big deal, just like clasic 4/4/6 power shatter from wayyy back when everyone called it OP before learning how to doge it.

> > >

> > > (1)**Blowing your survivability, well I disagree with that completely. It's true in a direct sense - clones contribute to your survivability because it creates more confusion and more targets to tab through for your opponents.** (3)But it's not true in the grand picture, the clones you lost cost you almost nothing. In the worst case you were relying on the clones to confuse your opponent and they didn't, in the best case the clone wasn't confusing anyone and you shattered it. (2)**The passive damage from it is basically irrelevant - the main purpose of that clone in your build is to be shattered and it does relatively little outside of that role or the role of confusing your opponent.** (3)You will simply spam more clones, and you have enough evasion to not worry about losing those clones to begin with. They are, like I said, merely a free bonus for being a mesmer on top of all those defenses where thief lost a ton of HP and teamfight capability to get those evades.

> >

> > (1) I was referring more to blink being a meaty cooldown that can be strong defensively as part of the gap closer when at any range 450 for jaunt is awkward, or needing it for key removal depending on the build vs match-up... Which either or is lot of the time.

> >

> > (2) I'm well aware of their useless-ness outside a resource, that is what the point I was making, but if you agree then you should understand why it's not really something you should have to give up damage for, which was a significant point with the feb patch. Either way in Conquest, Stronghold, those 2v2 maps (no one plays cuz there is no queue for them), and 1v1 duels (an unsupported format); Only bads lose to visual noise. This is a noob curve EVERYONE eventually goes through, complains about being brokenly OP, then surpasses because the gimmick wears off quick. Maybe it screws with tab targeting a little, at worst. These are absolutely the people we SHOULD NOT balance based on their opinion.

> >

> > (3) Clones are not super easy to produce, nor are they fun to.

> > Thief by comparison gets it's resource automatically or has skills and traits that create more. Thief can stay in stealth or get some distance and regain. Attacking when it suits them.

> > For Mesmers most need a target and line of sight. Along with that they are spawned by weapon skills where majority don't do anything of note, some skills with decent 'react-able to' cast times, and others with lengthy cooldowns.

> > Mesmers with main hand sword usually get 1 clone on mainhand, that spawns at your target and is easy to cleave, doing so will prevent the mesmer from swaping with. Majority of the offhands get 1 phantasm.

> > On Staff you get 2 phants and a clone, and 1 clone.

> > GS is 1 clone 1 phant unless traited.

> >

> > On average that is a grand total of 2 illusions per weapon set, until traits.

> > As for traits virtually no one runs deceptive evasion anymore, and Self-deception gives you a clone on only jaunt cuz no one really runs the other deceptions seriously.

> > Unless chrono where you can do a combo twice and flood a room **you cannot just "spam" clones.** (and this thread is about mirage)

> >

> > It might be tomato-tomahto and to closely comparing classes but as a resource that is required I think it's very inferior to the ini system, and just a bad version of the adrenaline system. You have to be doing something to someone already to get the resources to actually harm them, as opposed to you know, just harming them. The exception to this, being one fairly avoidable combo, that something like the dual sword/staff builds has 0 access to.

> > Plus although the damage especially on phants has gone up since the feb patch, outside of well placed shatters, it's damage is still out classed by war and thief. Both btw having access to strong unblockable hits, negating a major defense type. (of invuln/doge/blocks/immunities type things)

> >

> > I don't know what you define as spamming but the numbers don't add up to what you suggest. Also if not being kind of inferior, it's at least fiddly, and it's still a kill-able resource.

> > Ultimately it's not a bonus, it's a burden with a fancy gimmick.

> >

> > Since the feb patch's global buffs and reworking things yes I agree Mesmer doesn't give up anything stat wise to have clones, it used to, not anymore; that is because having clones as a resource has it's own drawbacks that by it's default nature demands something in exchange that would normally not be a problem for the rest of the roster.

>

> You need to make your points more concise. I'm not going to spend decades deciphering your paragraphs, and a lot of the further comments you're typing don't match with earlier comments. You need to be consistent as well.

>

> 1. Your original comment was that thief can mimick mesmer burst but without blowing its defensive cooldowns to do so. I commented that clones aren't much of a defensive cooldown and are more of a constant in any mesmer build. Now you're saying you were talking about blink, which has really nothing to do with any of this.

> 2. The point isn't that you need to give up damage for clones, the point is that thief gives up HP and teamfighting for mobility/dodging and mesmer gains clones instead of giving anything up for its mobility/dodging.

> 3. Yes, they are super easy to produce depending on build or timing, and it doesn't matter whether they're fun, they exist regardless.

>

> As for clones dying to aoe, well, that means they did their job soaking damage instead of the mesmer, does it not? You traded ̶d̶a̶m̶a̶g̶e̶ shatter potential for your own survival in that instance. A thief would just be on the floor bleeding out because he for some reason happened to be standing in a circle for a second too long.

 

1. I said they can mimic the burst more frequently. That means employing back stab combos, pistol whip combos, S/D advances at a reasonable distance with mostly spending initiative, which automatically refills and requires no ramp unless you've burnt it all, and even then it's as simple as just standing there. On top of that, thief has steal. Mesmer by comparison has blink which is safer as a mobility or defensive/re-positioning tool. This is fine, except Mesmer has ramp for damage and more limited options to engage presuming the gs combo is avoided, assuming if GS is even being run.

 

2. With the drawbacks of clones, including the ramp required for damage (outside of the one combo); that is enough of a trade off for the mobility. Mesmer doesn't actually doge more than many other classes, and some including thief and ranger still has more.

If you don't know what I'm talking about I listed those drawbacks prior.

 

3. Please list how it is super easy, and then please follow up with in what way after drawing that conclusion that it's not super limited, especially by contrast to thief.

They are "there" yes, but just saying "it's easy and they are there!" leans towards ignorance of the classes and how it compares to everything else. Which since day 1 has been the leading cause of complains about Mesmer.

I guess it's "super easy" in that 1 cooldown button push = 1 clone (sometimes 2). But a staple ½ cast time, and 12 sec c/d for 1 clone is far from "spammable" and easy to just replenish. Also compared to many other classes that use resources it's super easy to punish both before and after it's creation.

 

And no AoEs typically hit the clones AND the Mesmer, and being almost just as squishy depending on the AoE would be equally as dead, or a sliver before at best.

Real difference is when mes escapes the red circle by any normal means that any class can use, it's resources that they have to take time to create are now gone.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> What?!?!?! You mean the thing Thief has been able to do since launch?!?!?

>

> Few tips, Mesmer only has 3 uninterruptable sources of stealth, each one lasts 3 seconds, so you're exaggerating. EM gives exhaustion now so a lot of people are ditching it since it's about as kitten as could be. Reflects are tied to evasions which has an ICD. Daze is only spammable with Mirage sword, stop exaggerating. Invuln happens for about 4 seconds every 50 seconds, stop exaggerating.

>

> We get it, you don't like the purple butterfly class, stop exaggerating.

 

Quick note, but signet of midnight only gives 2 seconds of stealth baseline, and its the third uninterruptible source of stealth we have. Still though, I wouldn't mind losing stealth on one of those skills, and in return buffing veil to be 3 seconds baseline. I really want to see the overall access to stealth in this game be brought down.