Feedback on the State of the Mesmer [merged]

[apharma.3741]

> @"SteepledHat.1345" said:

> At this point, totally overhaul mesmer. Give me back mesmer from GW1....

 

That would not only be better than current mesmer but cause so much more hatred, remember you could put hexes on someone where they took damage for doing nothing and for doing something. That stuff wouldn’t fly here without the forums imploding under the immense weight of QQ.

 

Would be fun though....

[BABE.6384]

> Ben, ask your colleagues.....what on earth were they thinking? If the rework was for pve then it should of just stayed in pve. Because it doesn't seem to have been made for pvp. Unless for some reason Anet wants players to deal with 18 AI clones and have to manually try to click the real Mesmer.

>

>

 

If the rework was for pve then it should of just stayed in pve.If the rework was for pve then it should of just stayed in pve.If the rework was for pve then it should of just stayed in pve.If the rework was for pve then it should of just stayed in pve.If the rework was for pve then it should of just stayed in pve.

 

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[eldenbri.1059]

I offered this suggestion one other place, but maybe one answer is to make chronophantasma draw more attention to the real mesmer. So for example, whenever chronophantasma procs and new phantasms are summoned, there's a light circle that shows up under the real mesmer.

 

I also think it would be fine to make the continuum rift even more visible. It feels like good players already know to target it quickly - maybe it would help other players recognize what's going on

[Aza.2105]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

 

> 3 clones were shattered, 2 warlocks were disappearing, 2 more resummoned from chrono phantasma, one clone summoned from im guessing staff 2, and one was resummoned from the trait in the chrono line.

 

That isn't the point though. The point is the AI clutter, which is why I stood still to take a screenshot. Imagine 2 or 3 mesmers on the same team with all of that clutter, its a nightmare.

 

[Jenkski.7698]

I play Mesmer so I'm definitely biased. But I always find it easy to target the Player over the illusions... the illusions are always just standing around casting the same spell. Players move. Regardless... isn't the whole point of the Mesmer class to confuse you?

[ZeteCommander.4937]

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > I've never had a problem with it on any class. Still don't when I see it occasionally from mesmers or the rare engy.

> >

> > I wouldn’t argue with them. Their so blinded by their hatred for the class even when the majority of the Mesmer players are offering suggestions for nerfs they still come on here on say every Mesmer main thinks the class is fine. The only person that has said it was fine was ilthiwen. Everyone else has suggested nerfs. And then they over exaggerate, when called out they want to argue semantics, start making accusations, etc.

>

> Every time a mesmer thread comes up, here you are. I get that you like the class, cool. But don't be blinded by your love for it. I don't love any of these classes in game. All I want is a balanced competitive game without all the shenanigans: AI clutter for days, Long lasting pulsing aoe that is larger than a point, near endless resetting of fights, evade on skills, chaining skills that allow you to avoid all incoming damage, high up time of boons, rapid -reapplication of boons etc.

>

>

The rangers have more

[OriOri.8724]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > What?!?!?! You mean the thing Thief has been able to do since launch?!?!?

> > >

> > > Few tips, Mesmer only has 3 uninterruptable sources of stealth, each one lasts 3 seconds, so you're exaggerating. EM gives exhaustion now so a lot of people are ditching it since it's about as kitten as could be. Reflects are tied to evasions which has an ICD. Daze is only spammable with Mirage sword, stop exaggerating. Invuln happens for about 4 seconds every 50 seconds, stop exaggerating.

> > >

> > > We get it, you don't like the purple butterfly class, stop exaggerating.

> >

> > Quick note, but signet of midnight only gives 2 seconds of stealth baseline, and its the third uninterruptible source of stealth we have. Still though, I wouldn't mind losing stealth on one of those skills, and in return buffing veil to be 3 seconds baseline. I really want to see the overall access to stealth in this game be brought down.

>

> I was counting Desperate Decoy since I keep forgetting Midnight actually gives stealth now.

 

Ah, I see. I was only counting our skills, not traits.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Kraitan.8476" said:

> 10+ different seperate posts discussing the current state & imbalance of mesmer. It would be nice if we could get at least a single reply or comment from Anets' side acknowledging the existence of this problem. aidsclass.

 

Good luck. They didn't comment once in 8 months about our concerns over EM and how it couldn't stay in the game in its current state, and our long discussions over it. Its not likely they will comment on this

[Vagrant.7206]

Thank you for this post. I definitely agree with most of your proposed changes.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"kappa.2036" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > Infinite clone spam? Where? Give it to me! Legit you're just warping the fact that phantasms turn into clones to suit your narrative.

>

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/34113/anet-enough-updated-with-picture

> EZ CLONES

 

Maybe actually look at the picture instead of the circles. 6/9 of those illusions are in the process of disappearing.

[Imperadordf.2687]

> @"Ario.8964" said:

> > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> >

> > > -Making Chronophantasma recharge that phantasm skill, instead of passively spawning it. This would add more active gameplay and reduce the visual noise.

> > > -Adding a cap of maximum 3 active phantasms.

> >

> > Could you explain in more detail how that might work? I'm reading this a huge buff that will break the game.

> > I have this visual in my mind of someone spamming Illusionary Berserker faster than a Thief can spam Unload...

> >

> > I also have to ask where Continuum Split and Signet Of Ether falls into any of this, for both the Phantasma trait and the 3 cap.

> >

> >

> >

>

> If I understood it correctly, chronophantasma would recharge the skill that created the phantasm rather than autospawn the phantasm after it dies.

>

> However, I don't think it is a good idea. The only reason I say this is because of mesmer shield 4 being a phantasm creating skill. If chronophantasma recharged that you'd have mesmer able to chain 8 seconds of block (I believe it's 2 per shield cast with 2 uses before the skill goes on recharge so 4 for one use and then having it recharged would give it 8) and it could then go up to 16 seconds with the signet heal. Unless a cd was introduced to the trait it would be way too powerful for any shield users that took the trait.

 

Thank you for explaining.

 

Maybe, “The trait triggers once per skill per [insert cooldown]” I couldn’t really think of much changes about CP without either breaking it or destroying it.

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > >

> > > > -Making Chronophantasma recharge that phantasm skill, instead of passively spawning it. This would add more active gameplay and reduce the visual noise.

> > > > -Adding a cap of maximum 3 active phantasms.

> > >

> > > Could you explain in more detail how that might work? I'm reading this a huge buff that will break the game.

> > > I have this visual in my mind of someone spamming Illusionary Berserker faster than a Thief can spam Unload...

> > >

> > > I also have to ask where Continuum Split and Signet Of Ether falls into any of this, for both the Phantasma trait and the 3 cap.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > If I understood it correctly, chronophantasma would recharge the skill that created the phantasm rather than autospawn the phantasm after it dies.

> >

> > However, I don't think it is a good idea. The only reason I say this is because of mesmer shield 4 being a phantasm creating skill. If chronophantasma recharged that you'd have mesmer able to chain 8 seconds of block (I believe it's 2 per shield cast with 2 uses before the skill goes on recharge so 4 for one use and then having it recharged would give it 8) and it could then go up to 16 seconds with the signet heal. Unless a cd was introduced to the trait it would be way too powerful for any shield users that took the trait.

>

> Thank you for explaining.

>

> Maybe, “The trait triggers once per skill per [insert cooldown]” I couldn’t really think of much changes about CP without either breaking it or destroying it.

 

I'll try and rephrase...

 

If it recharges the skill, what is to stop people from spamming that skill or if it recharges by only a little bit, what is to stop people from cycling skills for the recharge benefit, same sitaution with an ICD.. Then after that, where does Continuum Split and Signet of Ether fit into all that?

[Imperadordf.2687]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > >

> > > > > -Making Chronophantasma recharge that phantasm skill, instead of passively spawning it. This would add more active gameplay and reduce the visual noise.

> > > > > -Adding a cap of maximum 3 active phantasms.

> > > >

> > > > Could you explain in more detail how that might work? I'm reading this a huge buff that will break the game.

> > > > I have this visual in my mind of someone spamming Illusionary Berserker faster than a Thief can spam Unload...

> > > >

> > > > I also have to ask where Continuum Split and Signet Of Ether falls into any of this, for both the Phantasma trait and the 3 cap.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > If I understood it correctly, chronophantasma would recharge the skill that created the phantasm rather than autospawn the phantasm after it dies.

> > >

> > > However, I don't think it is a good idea. The only reason I say this is because of mesmer shield 4 being a phantasm creating skill. If chronophantasma recharged that you'd have mesmer able to chain 8 seconds of block (I believe it's 2 per shield cast with 2 uses before the skill goes on recharge so 4 for one use and then having it recharged would give it 8) and it could then go up to 16 seconds with the signet heal. Unless a cd was introduced to the trait it would be way too powerful for any shield users that took the trait.

> >

> > Thank you for explaining.

> >

> > Maybe, “The trait triggers once per skill per [insert cooldown]” I couldn’t really think of much changes about CP without either breaking it or destroying it.

>

> I'll try and rephrase...

>

> If it recharges the skill, what is to stop people from spamming that skill or if it recharges by only a little bit, what is to stop people from cycling skills for the recharge benefit, same sitaution with an ICD.. Then after that, where does Continuum Split and Signet of Ether fit into all that?

 

It recharges the phantasm skill you casted once per interval.

 

The idea behind it was that Mesmer needs to cast the phantasm skill again instead of CP passively spawning it. Just a little window to interrupt the Mesmer.

 

CS and SoE would act like the same as they do now.

 

As I said this was only a rough idea, can be changed and improved.

[Simonoly.4352]

Confounding Suggestions never really allowed for multiple stuns from a single shatter unless you somehow managed to have your illusions lined up to hit the target at 5 second intervals. Now with the 15 second ICD on the trait there's absolutely no chance of this happening.

[Solori.6025]

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

>

> > 3 clones were shattered, 2 warlocks were disappearing, 2 more resummoned from chrono phantasma, one clone summoned from im guessing staff 2, and one was resummoned from the trait in the chrono line.

>

> That isn't the point though. The point is the AI clutter, which is why I stood still to take a screenshot. Imagine 2 or 3 mesmers on the same team with all of that clutter, its a nightmare.

>

 

Ahh then the fix would be simple.

 

Clones that are shattered turn into shards and move towards the opponent OR dissipate depending on the shatter used . This will mean that the velocity of said shards would have to be increased, but this will take away from the visual clutter since this is too much for the average player to handle.

 

For phantasms however that is a different sorta fix but...

 

Phantasms cap at 3 Summoning another phantasm while you have 3 active will override an active phantasm.

 

Puts the interaction back to the way it was before the change.

Meaning, if you summon GS phantasms with the trait and then turn around and summon the staff phantasms one of them will dissappear.

This will also bring Chronophantasma back a little because it will be the mesmers responsibility not to summon phantasm after phantasm just to have 4-5 respawn with the trait.

That is actually a problem.

 

 

 

The visual bug of clones staying and not disappearing immediately has been something that has been plaguing this game since 2012. At this point I doubt even anet knows how to actually fix it.

[Crinn.7864]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"kappa.2036" said:

> > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > Infinite clone spam? Where? Give it to me! Legit you're just warping the fact that phantasms turn into clones to suit your narrative.

> >

> > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/34113/anet-enough-updated-with-picture

> > EZ CLONES

>

> Maybe actually look at the picture instead of the circles. 6/9 of those illusions are in the process of disappearing.

 

The fact that the Mesmer can replace those clones before their death animation even completes should tell you something about Mesmer's power level.

 

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > @"kappa.2036" said:

> > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > Infinite clone spam? Where? Give it to me! Legit you're just warping the fact that phantasms turn into clones to suit your narrative.

> > >

> > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/34113/anet-enough-updated-with-picture

> > > EZ CLONES

> >

> > Maybe actually look at the picture instead of the circles. 6/9 of those illusions are in the process of disappearing.

>

> The fact that the Mesmer can replace those clones before their death animation even completes should tell you something about Mesmer's power level.

>

 

You mean exactly what we could do before the phantasm rework? The only difference now is that in that picture 4 of those are Illusionary Warlocks, which can't be shattered until they complete their lengthy channel, and when they turn into clones they automatically destroy any clones over the cap anyway. Being flooded with clones is not some mystical ultra damage boon. You can only shatter once every 11 or so seconds and between then clones do as much damage as a feather tickle.

 

Maybe you should actually learn about Mesmer, it might tell you something about its power level because you don't seem to understand that constantly having clones e.g. Mesmers entire theme, doesn't necessarily mean massive amounts of damage unless you're running IH.

 

In case you want me to go even further into detail, once a Mesmer triggers a shatter, all clones that are involved in that shatter no longer count as clones and more clones can now be produced. Now before you go whining about it, it's been that way since launch. Basically the whole, 'waah you can summon clones before they've finished their animation' complaint is completely invalid since that's been doable since the game began, notice the death animation for illusions is actually quite lengthy past when they actually shatter (2-3 seconds) because they do that little shattering mirror thing and then the mirror pieces need to fall on the ground.

 

Edit: Hold on let me go even further. Two of the Illusions disappearing in that picture are the Illusionary Warlocks, meaning the other two haven't even started channeling yet, meaning they can be interrupted and/or destroyed before they can even turn into clones.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > > > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > -Making Chronophantasma recharge that phantasm skill, instead of passively spawning it. This would add more active gameplay and reduce the visual noise.

> > > > > > -Adding a cap of maximum 3 active phantasms.

> > > > >

> > > > > Could you explain in more detail how that might work? I'm reading this a huge buff that will break the game.

> > > > > I have this visual in my mind of someone spamming Illusionary Berserker faster than a Thief can spam Unload...

> > > > >

> > > > > I also have to ask where Continuum Split and Signet Of Ether falls into any of this, for both the Phantasma trait and the 3 cap.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > If I understood it correctly, chronophantasma would recharge the skill that created the phantasm rather than autospawn the phantasm after it dies.

> > > >

> > > > However, I don't think it is a good idea. The only reason I say this is because of mesmer shield 4 being a phantasm creating skill. If chronophantasma recharged that you'd have mesmer able to chain 8 seconds of block (I believe it's 2 per shield cast with 2 uses before the skill goes on recharge so 4 for one use and then having it recharged would give it 8) and it could then go up to 16 seconds with the signet heal. Unless a cd was introduced to the trait it would be way too powerful for any shield users that took the trait.

> > >

> > > Thank you for explaining.

> > >

> > > Maybe, “The trait triggers once per skill per [insert cooldown]” I couldn’t really think of much changes about CP without either breaking it or destroying it.

> >

> > I'll try and rephrase...

> >

> > If it recharges the skill, what is to stop people from spamming that skill or if it recharges by only a little bit, what is to stop people from cycling skills for the recharge benefit, same sitaution with an ICD.. Then after that, where does Continuum Split and Signet of Ether fit into all that?

>

> It recharges the phantasm skill you casted once per interval.

>

> The idea behind it was that Mesmer needs to cast the phantasm skill again instead of CP passively spawning it. Just a little window to interrupt the Mesmer.

>

> CS and SoE would act like the same as they do now.

>

> As I said this was only a rough idea, can be changed and improved.

 

It'd work better if it changed Phantasm skills to use an Ammo recharge (2 max) and required about 4-6 seconds between phantasm casts. That way it's not spammable back to back and you still get the effect of Chronophantasma.

[Imperadordf.2687]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > > > > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > -Making Chronophantasma recharge that phantasm skill, instead of passively spawning it. This would add more active gameplay and reduce the visual noise.

> > > > > > > -Adding a cap of maximum 3 active phantasms.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Could you explain in more detail how that might work? I'm reading this a huge buff that will break the game.

> > > > > > I have this visual in my mind of someone spamming Illusionary Berserker faster than a Thief can spam Unload...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I also have to ask where Continuum Split and Signet Of Ether falls into any of this, for both the Phantasma trait and the 3 cap.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > If I understood it correctly, chronophantasma would recharge the skill that created the phantasm rather than autospawn the phantasm after it dies.

> > > > >

> > > > > However, I don't think it is a good idea. The only reason I say this is because of mesmer shield 4 being a phantasm creating skill. If chronophantasma recharged that you'd have mesmer able to chain 8 seconds of block (I believe it's 2 per shield cast with 2 uses before the skill goes on recharge so 4 for one use and then having it recharged would give it 8) and it could then go up to 16 seconds with the signet heal. Unless a cd was introduced to the trait it would be way too powerful for any shield users that took the trait.

> > > >

> > > > Thank you for explaining.

> > > >

> > > > Maybe, “The trait triggers once per skill per [insert cooldown]” I couldn’t really think of much changes about CP without either breaking it or destroying it.

> > >

> > > I'll try and rephrase...

> > >

> > > If it recharges the skill, what is to stop people from spamming that skill or if it recharges by only a little bit, what is to stop people from cycling skills for the recharge benefit, same sitaution with an ICD.. Then after that, where does Continuum Split and Signet of Ether fit into all that?

> >

> > It recharges the phantasm skill you casted once per interval.

> >

> > The idea behind it was that Mesmer needs to cast the phantasm skill again instead of CP passively spawning it. Just a little window to interrupt the Mesmer.

> >

> > CS and SoE would act like the same as they do now.

> >

> > As I said this was only a rough idea, can be changed and improved.

>

> It'd work better if it changed Phantasm skills to use an Ammo recharge (2 max) and required about 4-6 seconds between phantasm casts. That way it's not spammable back to back and you still get the effect of Chronophantasma.

 

Exactly. And SotE recharges one ammo to every phantasm skill.

 

But the problem is Echo of Memory.. It would be too OP if it could be casted back to back.

[bravan.3876]

Does the new phantasm rule not give the mesmer a clone even when you destroy the phantasm? That is another point should get changed again. The new phantasm rule is just beyond broken in PvP. Give some compensation only in PvE for the backchange of this broken mechanic and only hold the one change that phantasm turn into clones after their first attack when they live long enough. I don't even see a limit of 3 phantasm will solve the problems with the new phantasm rule. So change it back already, Phantasms should be able to get shattered, should be able to get destroyed without giving a clone and should count to the clone limit of 3. Staff should not give 2 phantasm, change it back to one, same for the greatsword trait that give 2 berserker. The dmg from the most op phantams like from utilities should still get nerfed to prepatch lvl. Npc carried builds, in particular when they can be combined with a semi tanky build on the player (Chaosline) without bigger dmg lose is just bad in PvP.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> Does the new phantasm rule not give the mesmer a clone even when you destroy the phantasm? That is another point should get changed again. The new phantasm rule is just beyond broken in PvP. Give some compensation only in PvE for the backchange of this broken mechanic and only hold the one change that phantasm turn into clones after their first attack when they live long enough. I don't even see a limit of 3 phantasm will solve the problems with the new phantasm rule. So change it back already, Phantasms should be able to get shattered, should be able to die without giving a clone and should count to the clone limit of 3. Staff should not give 2 phantasm, change it back to one, same for the greatsword trait that give 2 berserker. The dmg from the most op phantams like from utilities should still get nerfed to prepatch lvl. Npc carried builds, in particular when they can be combined with a semi tanky build on the player (Chaosline) without bigger dmg lose is just bad in PvP.

 

The fact you want the phantasm change just flat out reverted means you don't understand Mesmer issues that were especially highlighted after Mirage came into play. Reversion makes the class miserable to play again since your core mechanics are constantly fighting each other. Phantasms don't give a clone if they're destroyed anyway so I don't know what your complaint about that is. If you mean you're irritated that they give a clone after completing an attack that's l2p, you can easily kill phantasms they're made of paper. The Staff phantasms have a long channel time, just kill them and stop being bad. As for your GS complaint, you seriously want to just gimp a GM trait because you can't learn to dodge? Both utility phantasms have very very very easily evadeable attacks, l2p.

 

Bottom line: Asking for the phantasm change to be reverted is asking to give Mesmers NPC carried builds again, which you don't seem to understand.

[bravan.3876]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > Does the new phantasm rule not give the mesmer a clone even when you destroy the phantasm? That is another point should get changed again. The new phantasm rule is just beyond broken in PvP. Give some compensation only in PvE for the backchange of this broken mechanic and only hold the one change that phantasm turn into clones after their first attack when they live long enough. I don't even see a limit of 3 phantasm will solve the problems with the new phantasm rule. So change it back already, Phantasms should be able to get shattered, should be able to die without giving a clone and should count to the clone limit of 3. Staff should not give 2 phantasm, change it back to one, same for the greatsword trait that give 2 berserker. The dmg from the most op phantams like from utilities should still get nerfed to prepatch lvl. Npc carried builds, in particular when they can be combined with a semi tanky build on the player (Chaosline) without bigger dmg lose is just bad in PvP.

>

> The fact you want the phantasm change just flat out reverted means you don't understand Mesmer issues that were especially highlighted after Mirage came into play. Reversion makes the class miserable to play again since your core mechanics are constantly fighting each other. Phantasms don't give a clone if they're destroyed anyway so I don't know what your complaint about that is. If you mean you're irritated that they give a clone after completing an attack that's l2p, you can easily kill phantasms they're made of paper. The Staff phantasms have a long channel time, just kill them and stop being bad. As for your GS complaint, you seriously want to just kitten a GM trait because you can't learn to dodge? Both utility phantasms have very very very easily evadeable attacks, l2p.

>

> Bottom line: Asking for the phantasm change to be reverted is asking to give Mesmers NPC carried builds again, which you don't seem to underst> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > Does the new phantasm rule not give the mesmer a clone even when you destroy the phantasm? That is another point should get changed again. The new phantasm rule is just beyond broken in PvP. Give some compensation only in PvE for the backchange of this broken mechanic and only hold the one change that phantasm turn into clones after their first attack when they live long enough. I don't even see a limit of 3 phantasm will solve the problems with the new phantasm rule. So change it back already, Phantasms should be able to get shattered, should be able to die without giving a clone and should count to the clone limit of 3. Staff should not give 2 phantasm, change it back to one, same for the greatsword trait that give 2 berserker. The dmg from the most op phantams like from utilities should still get nerfed to prepatch lvl. Npc carried builds, in particular when they can be combined with a semi tanky build on the player (Chaosline) without bigger dmg lose is just bad in PvP.

>

> The fact you want the phantasm change just flat out reverted means you don't understand Mesmer issues that were especially highlighted after Mirage came into play. Reversion makes the class miserable to play again since your core mechanics are constantly fighting each other. Phantasms don't give a clone if they're destroyed anyway so I don't know what your complaint about that is. If you mean you're irritated that they give a clone after completing an attack that's l2p, you can easily kill phantasms they're made of paper. The Staff phantasms have a long channel time, just kill them and stop being bad. As for your GS complaint, you seriously want to just kitten a GM trait because you can't learn to dodge? Both utility phantasms have very very very easily evadeable attacks, l2p.

>

> Bottom line: Asking for the phantasm change to be reverted is asking to give Mesmers NPC carried builds again, which you don't seem to understand.

 

It was a question if phantasm turn into clones when get destroyed, that's what i was remembering but i wasn't sure and it turns out i was wrong in that, i just checked the patchnotes, they only turn into clones even when get interrupted on their one attack. "Phantasms: Phantasms can no longer be shattered and no longer count toward your maximum illusion count. Phantasms are destroyed and then replaced by clones after completing their unique attack or if their attack is interrupted." I was just remembering the interruption thing wrong.

 

Still no, the class would not be miserable to play with the old phantasm rule, mesmer was playable with the old rule for years. The change was done for PvE not that much for PvP. And sry but anet have to find another way to prevent a 3 phantasm perma-uptime and only autoattack through PvE content playstyle for mesmer. A way that don't make the class a npcs carried brainless spamfest and effect-/npc-clutter on screen. Making phantasm turn into clones after one attack prevent that already. The class mechanic are shatterskills for some reason and shattermesmer never have let phantasm live for longer than one attack before shatter anyway. The new phantasm rules with even buffing the npcs dmg is just aids in PvP and was not needed.

 

I am not irritated by phantasms turn into clones, that was the only change i said they should keep, obviously you didn't understand my post at all. Yes, obviously also from your other sentences. Its not about dodging the phantams (even tho telegraphed skills don't help when you can't see anything from all the clutter) its about a mesmer can generate way more clones than before much more permanently. Means he can shatter with more clones = also more dmg frequently after having phantams attacks which are very stong already. How many dodges should an opponent have? Doging all phantasm the mesmer can spam and all shatters? Pls start thinking. I play mesmer myself sometimes and even me not being that good on mesmer the brainless playable phantasm builds are just boring and ez to play. Phantasm builds were never a thing in PvP before but they are now. You seems to mix up PvE and PvP.

 

It is so funny i either get attacked by mesmer hater for saying not all builds of chrono or mirage are op or i get attacked by not so good mesmer mains needing and defending a broken mechanic to play the class in PvP.

 

I agree to try the 3 phantasm up limit before but i'm sure that will not rly help vs anything. So i still vote for undoing this broken mechanic except the one change that phantasm turn into clones after one attack and find another way to compensate mesmers in PvE for that phantasms are not permatent up after casting them once anymore, a way that is possible to split (like give skills more dmg or shorten cds in PvE only).

 

 

[Satenia.9025]

As it is now, Mesmer is like the Scourge/SB right at PoF launch - ridiculously OP.

 

You can beat an average one while being at the top of your own play - in contrast, any somewhat decent just facerolls you in turn. At least this time you gave us a 1 week heads-up on what's coming for the next PvP season rather than just dropping it in the middle of it like you did with PoF.

 

Small steps...

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > Does the new phantasm rule not give the mesmer a clone even when you destroy the phantasm? That is another point should get changed again. The new phantasm rule is just beyond broken in PvP. Give some compensation only in PvE for the backchange of this broken mechanic and only hold the one change that phantasm turn into clones after their first attack when they live long enough. I don't even see a limit of 3 phantasm will solve the problems with the new phantasm rule. So change it back already, Phantasms should be able to get shattered, should be able to die without giving a clone and should count to the clone limit of 3. Staff should not give 2 phantasm, change it back to one, same for the greatsword trait that give 2 berserker. The dmg from the most op phantams like from utilities should still get nerfed to prepatch lvl. Npc carried builds, in particular when they can be combined with a semi tanky build on the player (Chaosline) without bigger dmg lose is just bad in PvP.

> >

> > The fact you want the phantasm change just flat out reverted means you don't understand Mesmer issues that were especially highlighted after Mirage came into play. Reversion makes the class miserable to play again since your core mechanics are constantly fighting each other. Phantasms don't give a clone if they're destroyed anyway so I don't know what your complaint about that is. If you mean you're irritated that they give a clone after completing an attack that's l2p, you can easily kill phantasms they're made of paper. The Staff phantasms have a long channel time, just kill them and stop being bad. As for your GS complaint, you seriously want to just kitten a GM trait because you can't learn to dodge? Both utility phantasms have very very very easily evadeable attacks, l2p.

> >

> > Bottom line: Asking for the phantasm change to be reverted is asking to give Mesmers NPC carried builds again, which you don't seem to underst> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > Does the new phantasm rule not give the mesmer a clone even when you destroy the phantasm? That is another point should get changed again. The new phantasm rule is just beyond broken in PvP. Give some compensation only in PvE for the backchange of this broken mechanic and only hold the one change that phantasm turn into clones after their first attack when they live long enough. I don't even see a limit of 3 phantasm will solve the problems with the new phantasm rule. So change it back already, Phantasms should be able to get shattered, should be able to die without giving a clone and should count to the clone limit of 3. Staff should not give 2 phantasm, change it back to one, same for the greatsword trait that give 2 berserker. The dmg from the most op phantams like from utilities should still get nerfed to prepatch lvl. Npc carried builds, in particular when they can be combined with a semi tanky build on the player (Chaosline) without bigger dmg lose is just bad in PvP.

> >

> > The fact you want the phantasm change just flat out reverted means you don't understand Mesmer issues that were especially highlighted after Mirage came into play. Reversion makes the class miserable to play again since your core mechanics are constantly fighting each other. Phantasms don't give a clone if they're destroyed anyway so I don't know what your complaint about that is. If you mean you're irritated that they give a clone after completing an attack that's l2p, you can easily kill phantasms they're made of paper. The Staff phantasms have a long channel time, just kill them and stop being bad. As for your GS complaint, you seriously want to just kitten a GM trait because you can't learn to dodge? Both utility phantasms have very very very easily evadeable attacks, l2p.

> >

> > Bottom line: Asking for the phantasm change to be reverted is asking to give Mesmers NPC carried builds again, which you don't seem to understand.

>

> It was a question if phantasm turn into clones when get destroyed, that's what i was remembering but i wasn't sure and it turns out i was wrong in that, i just checked the patchnotes, they only turn into clones even when get interrupted on their one attack. "Phantasms: Phantasms can no longer be shattered and no longer count toward your maximum illusion count. Phantasms are destroyed and then replaced by clones after completing their unique attack or if their attack is interrupted." I was just remembering the interruption thing wrong.

>

> Still no, the class would not be miserable to play with the old phantasm rule, mesmer was playable with the old rule for years. The change was done for PvE not that much for PvP. And sry but anet have to find another way to prevent a 3 phantasm perma-uptime and only autoattack through PvE content playstyle for mesmer. A way that don't make the class a npcs carried brainless spamfest and effect-/npc-clutter on screen. Making phantasm turn into clones after one attack prevent that already. The class mechanic are shatterskills for some reason and shattermesmer never have let phantasm live for longer than one attack before shatter anyway. The new phantasm rules with even buffing the npcs dmg is just aids in PvP and was not needed.

>

> I am not irritated by phantasms turn into clones, that was the only change i said they should keep, obviously you didn't understand my post at all. Yes, obviously also from your other sentences. Its not about dodging the phantams (even tho telegraphed skills don't help when you can't see anything from all the clutter) its about a mesmer can generate way more clones than before much more permanently. Means he can shatter with more clones = also more dmg frequently after having phantams attacks which are very stong already. How many dodges should an opponent have? Doging all phantasm the mesmer can spam and all shatters? Pls start thinking. I play mesmer myself sometimes and even me not being that good on mesmer the brainless playable phantasm builds are just boring and ez to play. Phantasm builds were never a thing in PvP before but they are now. You seems to mix up PvE and PvP.

>

> It is so funny i either get attacked by mesmer hater for saying not all builds of chrono or mirage are op or i get attacked by not so good mesmer mains needing and defending a broken mechanic to play the class in PvP.

>

> I agree to try the 3 phantasm up limit before but i'm sure that will not rly help vs anything. So i still vote for undoing this broken mechanic except the one change that phantasm turn into clones after one attack and find another way to compensate mesmers in PvE for that phantasms are not permatent up after casting them once anymore, a way that is possible to split (like give skills more dmg or shorten cds in PvE only).

>

>

 

Yeah Mesmer was 'playable' the same way you can still eat ramen noodles with a fork, sure it kinda works but you're missing out on a fair amount of effectiveness. Yes, the change was done for PvE because ANet is taking a stance against passive gameplay which is exactly what pop 3 phantasms and AA was. And considering far more people do PvE than PvP it's a fair consideration. Although you can't seem to understand that npc carried brainless spamfest is exactly the same thing as pop 3 phantasms and AA even though you recognize both concepts (which are the same concept) in sentences next to each other. Sure maybe the damage is overtuned for PvP, fix it there then, don't go back to gimpy class design because you want a ride in the wwaaahhhmbulance.

 

Yeah it's pretty hard to understand a poorly written post, my bad. No Mesmers shatter capabilities were not bolstered at all, if anything the offending trait is Shatter Storm, not clone generation, making phantasms shatterable or having them change into clones after their attack literally does not magically make more clone generation, the net amount of illusions being shattered is the exact same except in the few cases where phantasms skills now generate more than one phantasm (only 2 untraited instances). You seem to forget you don't necessarily have to dodge a phantasm attack to avoid damage from it since you didn't read my post, phantasms can be destroyed before or during their attacks and you only really need to dodge one shatter, Cry of Frustration is garbage, Diversion doesn't do any actual damage and Distortion isn't an attack. And you don't seem to understand that phantasms aren't spammed, the offending trait is Chronophantasma which might need to be reworked a little, generally something that happens when you have a class mechanic overhaul.

 

Change it back because it's overtuned in the least played game mode is a really sorry reason to gimp it for PvE mesmers. I'm clearly thinking more than you because you forgot phantasms can just be destroyed before or during their attack. You even admit that you're not that good on mesmer so I'm having trouble accepting your perspective from what appears to be hotjoin hero syndrome.

 

So basically what you're saying is, rebreak Phantasms for PvE because a small fraction of the playerbase is sad and can't wait for tuning changes.

 

Edit: forgot one more thing, you can even prevent phantasms from attacking by dodging the Phantasm skill itself, they're evadeable, blockable, and blindable, oh look the mesmer is swinging his greatsword around, dodge, wow there's no phantasms.

[Legatus.3608]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > > > > > Basically if you were to compare thief and mesmer, they're very similar classes except for the fact that thief gives up its HP pool for the things it has, and mesmer GAINS clones instead of giving something up.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Sure it has some advantages, but it's hard to argue that it's better than simple direct near instant damage that a thief has. People complain about the mesmer GS shatter burst, but thief on one set, can attempt a similar play more frequently that doesn't rely on an awkward bounce, and can do so without blowing a major tool that is part of your survivability.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The problem I mostly have is people arguing that the nerfs that came for mes was not enough. Where on top of hard damage number nerfs a significant amount of might stacking was cut off which is more impactful than people realize and brings it in line with the passive sustain and survivability nerfs, and corresponding damage reductions.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > People will continue to complain about mirage's ability to doge/immune, but it's still the same few cooldowns majoirty of the cast has, and mirage unlike them uses those base doges for offensive purposes, and expends their entire pool of resources to amplify one of the cooldowns doge.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > vigor supports some of it, but is a grand total of 3 sec per shatter unless dueling line which some of the popular builds didn't even run.

> > > > > > > This entire thing is a farce, people will learn to counter it with enough time and it wont seem like such a big deal, just like clasic 4/4/6 power shatter from wayyy back when everyone called it OP before learning how to doge it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > (1)**Blowing your survivability, well I disagree with that completely. It's true in a direct sense - clones contribute to your survivability because it creates more confusion and more targets to tab through for your opponents.** (3)But it's not true in the grand picture, the clones you lost cost you almost nothing. In the worst case you were relying on the clones to confuse your opponent and they didn't, in the best case the clone wasn't confusing anyone and you shattered it. (2)**The passive damage from it is basically irrelevant - the main purpose of that clone in your build is to be shattered and it does relatively little outside of that role or the role of confusing your opponent.** (3)You will simply spam more clones, and you have enough evasion to not worry about losing those clones to begin with. They are, like I said, merely a free bonus for being a mesmer on top of all those defenses where thief lost a ton of HP and teamfight capability to get those evades.

> > > > >

> > > > > (1) I was referring more to blink being a meaty cooldown that can be strong defensively as part of the gap closer when at any range 450 for jaunt is awkward, or needing it for key removal depending on the build vs match-up... Which either or is lot of the time.

> > > > >

> > > > > (2) I'm well aware of their useless-ness outside a resource, that is what the point I was making, but if you agree then you should understand why it's not really something you should have to give up damage for, which was a significant point with the feb patch. Either way in Conquest, Stronghold, those 2v2 maps (no one plays cuz there is no queue for them), and 1v1 duels (an unsupported format); Only bads lose to visual noise. This is a noob curve EVERYONE eventually goes through, complains about being brokenly OP, then surpasses because the gimmick wears off quick. Maybe it screws with tab targeting a little, at worst. These are absolutely the people we SHOULD NOT balance based on their opinion.

> > > > >

> > > > > (3) Clones are not super easy to produce, nor are they fun to.

> > > > > Thief by comparison gets it's resource automatically or has skills and traits that create more. Thief can stay in stealth or get some distance and regain. Attacking when it suits them.

> > > > > For Mesmers most need a target and line of sight. Along with that they are spawned by weapon skills where majority don't do anything of note, some skills with decent 'react-able to' cast times, and others with lengthy cooldowns.

> > > > > Mesmers with main hand sword usually get 1 clone on mainhand, that spawns at your target and is easy to cleave, doing so will prevent the mesmer from swaping with. Majority of the offhands get 1 phantasm.

> > > > > On Staff you get 2 phants and a clone, and 1 clone.

> > > > > GS is 1 clone 1 phant unless traited.

> > > > >

> > > > > On average that is a grand total of 2 illusions per weapon set, until traits.

> > > > > As for traits virtually no one runs deceptive evasion anymore, and Self-deception gives you a clone on only jaunt cuz no one really runs the other deceptions seriously.

> > > > > Unless chrono where you can do a combo twice and flood a room **you cannot just "spam" clones.** (and this thread is about mirage)

> > > > >

> > > > > It might be tomato-tomahto and to closely comparing classes but as a resource that is required I think it's very inferior to the ini system, and just a bad version of the adrenaline system. You have to be doing something to someone already to get the resources to actually harm them, as opposed to you know, just harming them. The exception to this, being one fairly avoidable combo, that something like the dual sword/staff builds has 0 access to.

> > > > > Plus although the damage especially on phants has gone up since the feb patch, outside of well placed shatters, it's damage is still out classed by war and thief. Both btw having access to strong unblockable hits, negating a major defense type. (of invuln/doge/blocks/immunities type things)

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't know what you define as spamming but the numbers don't add up to what you suggest. Also if not being kind of inferior, it's at least fiddly, and it's still a kill-able resource.

> > > > > Ultimately it's not a bonus, it's a burden with a fancy gimmick.

> > > > >

> > > > > Since the feb patch's global buffs and reworking things yes I agree Mesmer doesn't give up anything stat wise to have clones, it used to, not anymore; that is because having clones as a resource has it's own drawbacks that by it's default nature demands something in exchange that would normally not be a problem for the rest of the roster.

> > > >

> > > > You need to make your points more concise. I'm not going to spend decades deciphering your paragraphs, and a lot of the further comments you're typing don't match with earlier comments. You need to be consistent as well.

> > > >

> > > > 1. Your original comment was that thief can mimick mesmer burst but without blowing its defensive cooldowns to do so. I commented that clones aren't much of a defensive cooldown and are more of a constant in any mesmer build. Now you're saying you were talking about blink, which has really nothing to do with any of this.

> > > > 2. The point isn't that you need to give up damage for clones, the point is that thief gives up HP and teamfighting for mobility/dodging and mesmer gains clones instead of giving anything up for its mobility/dodging.

> > > > 3. Yes, they are super easy to produce depending on build or timing, and it doesn't matter whether they're fun, they exist regardless.

> > > >

> > > > As for clones dying to aoe, well, that means they did their job soaking damage instead of the mesmer, does it not? You traded ̶d̶a̶m̶a̶g̶e̶ shatter potential for your own survival in that instance. A thief would just be on the floor bleeding out because he for some reason happened to be standing in a circle for a second too long.

> > >

> > > 1. I said they can mimic the burst more frequently. That means employing back stab combos, pistol whip combos, S/D advances at a reasonable distance with mostly spending initiative, which automatically refills and requires no ramp unless you've burnt it all, and even then it's as simple as just standing there. On top of that, thief has steal. Mesmer by comparison has blink which is safer as a mobility or defensive/re-positioning tool. This is fine, except Mesmer has ramp for damage and more limited options to engage presuming the gs combo is avoided, assuming if GS is even being run.

> > >

> > > 2. With the drawbacks of clones, including the ramp required for damage (outside of the one combo); that is enough of a trade off for the mobility. Mesmer doesn't actually doge more than many other classes, and some including thief and ranger still has more.

> > > If you don't know what I'm talking about I listed those drawbacks prior.

> > >

> > > 3. Please list how it is super easy, and then please follow up with in what way after drawing that conclusion that it's not super limited, especially by contrast to thief.

> > > They are "there" yes, but just saying "it's easy and they are there!" leans towards ignorance of the classes and how it compares to everything else. Which since day 1 has been the leading cause of complains about Mesmer.

> > > I guess it's "super easy" in that 1 cooldown button push = 1 clone (sometimes 2). But a staple ½ cast time, and 12 sec c/d for 1 clone is far from "spammable" and easy to just replenish. Also compared to many other classes that use resources it's super easy to punish both before and after it's creation.

> > >

> > > And no AoEs typically hit the clones AND the Mesmer, and being almost just as squishy depending on the AoE would be equally as dead, or a sliver before at best.

> > > Real difference is when mes escapes the red circle by any normal means that any class can use, it's resources that they have to take time to create are now gone.

> >

> > 1. I think I understand what you were saying now about blink, but the point you made is irrelevant - backstab is both harder to land and does less damage than a mesmer shatter, ISN'T AOE, and the damage from backstab burst chains were ALSO reduced significantly in the latest patch as well as the damage of all thief meta build autos and LS/FS. Mesmer received no such damage nerf that I can find (I saw one trait change from 15 to 10% damage bonus), in fact shatters were not even MENTIONED anywhere in the patch notes except for an update to the tooltip of distortion, and mesmers were already pushing thieves out of their role before this patch.

> > 2. What drawback of clones? They don't have a kitten drawback, they're providing you offensive and defensive bonuses before they are shattered. Backstab requires you to somehow find your opponent facing away from you while not blocking, dodging, or otherwise using anything defensive in a space of 3 seconds, shatter requires you to have clones, it's not different in level of difficulty.

> > 3. Mirror blade: 8s cd, Illusory leap 12s cd, phantasmal berserker 15s cd, mirage thrust (essentially 20s cd without vigor on an ammo of 2). jaunt 20s cd up to 3 ammo, phantasmal mage 30s cd. This is assuming you are not running imagined burden and/or mirror images and/or decoy. You're telling me this is not a sufficient number of tools to generate 3 clones every time you want to shatter? If you're telling me this isn't enough tools for you to generate clones then I don't know what to tell you. These skills occupy such a large portion of your skill bar that you'd have to be ACTUALLY AFK in order to not be generating clones, otherwise you'd run out of non-clone-cooldowns to use trying to do things that don't generate clones. That's how difficult it is to NOT generate clones on a mesmer.

> >

> > I have a mesmer, I've played it quite extensively and compared to my thief (which is my main) it's basically better at everything you want to do in the game. I'm frankly about to start maining my mesmer just by the virtue of it being absolutely batshit broken for so kitten long.

>

> 1. Shatters have one very meticulous engage combo in which it is difficult to dodge them, otherwise the moment you see clones making a beeline towards you, you should be prepared to dodge. Backstab isn't hard to land, you're in stealth, your enemy intrinsically has no idea which direction you will be approaching/striking from other than being able vaguely guess you're going for the backstab.

> 2. Clones are paper, that's the drawback, they can be killed before they even actually shatter and that doesn't fix the damage coefficient on the rest of the shatters that actually make it.

> 3. You can only shatter once every 12 seconds, having thousands of clones is useless once your main form of attack nullified. And if you don't interrupt Signet of Illusions you deserve to get hit again.

>

> Wow suddenly thief is no longer the curbstomp king. Doesn' t mean mesmer is broken by any measure.

1. No, sorry, its harder to land backstab than shatter. I'm not even going to debate this with you because its common sense.

2. Yes clones are paper, they're also absorbing damage for you if they die so you don't get to whine about it. It's NOT a drawback.

3. Every 12th second is actually more often than thief can backstab+steal

 

Sure, thieves aren't "curbstomp" kings anymore (i assume that's a metaphor for +1) but since +1 and decap was the only thing thief was good at, you literally pushed thief out of the meta because of how bullshit your class is.