Why I hate the Deadeye

[Oxygen.5918]

The wiki describes the thief as "Thieves are expert in the shadow arts. They utilize stealth and shadowstepping to surprise and to get close to their target. They're deadly in one-on-one combat using their agility, acrobatic fighting style, and the ability to steal to overcome their enemies."

 

I don't really like this description because it is rather generic. Here's mine: "Thieves are tricky, twitchy, and highly mobile. The nature of their initiative mechanic makes their damage bursty and frontloaded, which works well with their in-and-out style. Their limited access to raw defensive skills and low health means they must rely on dodging, evading, teleporting and stealthing to hope to survive, let alone thrive."

 

Let's compare that to what the rifle (and malice) has to offer.

 

**Thieves are tricky**: The rifle isn't all that tricky, except for Death's Retreat, which is pretty similar to Debilitating Arc (a skill that already exists). Everything else involves shooting bullets of varying quality at a target. Why?

 

**...twitchy**: The rifle is definitely not twitchy. None of the abilities are really reactive (think Headshot). Most of the time, you won't even be moving. Why?

 

**...highly mobile**: The rifle might be the least mobile weapon in the game, mostly because it roots you in place. Yes, a skill that roots you in place on the most mobile profession in the game. You also lose Steal, just for good measure. Why?

 

**The nature of their initiative mechanic makes their damage bursty and frontloaded**: The rifle does the exact opposite; malice's damage bonus builds up over time, and Death's Judgement, the big button, incites you to build vulnerability, fury, and might stacks from the 3 preceding skills. Fortunately, they are each on hotkey 1, 2, and 3, respectively, so you don't mess up your rotation. Why?

 

**...which works well with their in-and-out style**: Except you won't go in, nor out, because you can't anymore. Also, you're standing still. Why?

 

**Their limited access to raw defensive skills and low health means they must rely on dodging, evading, teleporting**: Deadeye loses the thief's main way of teleporting, Steal, and offers one only Death's Retreat for mobility. Too bad it can't be used while kneeling. Why?

 

**...and stealthing to hope to survive, let alone thrive**: Rifle literally has a skill that prevents you from stealthing. Yes, the profession that is about stealthing and using stealth attack prevents itself from stealthing. Why?

 

Anyway, none of this makes sense for the nature of the profession. I don't think homogenizing everything is the way to go.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

I never went with the wiki on what a Thief is. To me, they were just the rogue like characters of GW2. With them being rogue like, it lends themselves to many different play-styles and options with one of them being Spec Ops Sniper. That's all a rogue is in any game that has them, they are always shadowed focused, and they are always very behind the scenes fighters like Special Operations.

[MrForz.1953]

You know. Back when people wanted rifle on Thief before the HoT elite spec announcements I've been set on fire for saying that's it's incompatible and that the nature of the Thief wouldn't permit it. When Deadeye was announced I assumed that after all, elite specs were meant to turn classes into something else entirely. And then PoF came out, and I really don't know what to make of Deadeye. I maybe expected that it would be a good addition to PvE but so far it seems to be Scrapper 2.0 in terms of efficiency. And hell, it might not even be that efficient on the long run in PvP.

[Oxygen.5918]

> @MrForz.1953 said:

> You know. Back when people wanted rifle on Thief before the HoT elite spec announcements I've been set on fire for saying that's it's incompatible and that the nature of the Thief wouldn't permit it. When Deadeye was announced I assumed that after all, elite specs were meant to turn classes into something else entirely. And then PoF came out, and I really don't know what to make of Deadeye. I maybe expected that it would be a good addition to PvE but so far it seems to be Scrapper 2.0 in terms of efficiency. And kitten, it might not even be that efficient on the long run in PvP.

 

Diversity is one thing, but going 180˚on the profession's nature is another. Rifles could fit the profession - any weapon could - but this design doesn't.

[TwiceDead.1963]

If the wiki article is the way thieves are described by Anet, that's what it is. What you're describing is how thieves have been played the past 4 years or so, and that really hasn't changed because nothing has come around to change things up, and the balance patches hasn't been doing anything to help with that.

 

Besides they probably want to keep the description vague and generic, exactly so they can do whatever they want, and it allows people to have their own interpretations of the class, rather than railroad it down a path of sameyness and stagnation. People dreamed of snipers, now they have one. People dream of focus-wielding shadow-spell support casters. maybe that will happen next, who knows. There is only one guarantee, it will be a clusterfuck at launch.

 

Deadeye Rifle is a mess in many ways and needs work, and the Deadeye traits are quite nice, but again needs some QoL changes to really flourish, but thematically it delivers, and that is what Anet is going for.

 

We know their balance team is unreliable, _that's putting it nicely_, so they have to sell their games on the theme-park experience rather than the PvP scene. Last time we visited a rainforest, now we're in a desert... Not locking classes into specific descriptions works out for them in that regard, as it keeps giving them options. From a business perspective, it makes sense.

 

I'm sorry this may sound harsh, but at this point it looks like you're just disagreeing with Anet's generic view of the class in favor of your own interpretation. Other people might not agree with you, and that's because people have their own interpretations. At the end of the day, the way Anet describes it is how it's been for ages, and is unlikely to change now; five years into the games lifespan...

 

With that said, none of what I said should stop you from using your own interpretations of the class if you so wish, just don't expect Anet to adhere to them.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

You don't have to play deadeye, but you should at least understand WHY deadeye was made.

 

Unlike Daredevil, it is SUPPOSED to be a completely different style of play, and it requires more thought in your actions than it did with Core Thief or Daredevil. I've not had a problem with any of the aforementioned complaints you've had in PvP outside of how clunky the spec currently is.

[Oxygen.5918]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> You don't have to play deadeye, but you should at least understand WHY deadeye was made.

>

> Unlike Daredevil, it is SUPPOSED to be a completely different style of play, and it requires more thought in your actions than it did with Core Thief or Daredevil. I've not had a problem with any of the aforementioned complaints you've had in PvP outside of how clunky the spec currently is.

 

Sorry, how does the Deadeye require any thought to play? To kneel or not to kneel, is that the question, Leo Shakespeare?

[Jana.6831]

Ranged = high damage but squishy makes sense in general - that has got nothing to do with thief. They scrapped that with many classes with HoT and that was a mistake. They also scrapped the stealth = defense for thief because many were complaining about it. They then went evades with DrD which does work but it's only for DrD and compared to the vanilla specs and their vision of DE (which is rather spot on idea wise) it's ridiculously OP. Just that DrD isn't OP when compared to the other HoT specs.

I think DE does have means to self stealth and if that were reliable = no reveal, it would be sufficient. Just that so much in this game doesn't fit the initial idea of what combat should be like, that DE feels weak.

Anet messed quite a lot up the past 2,5 years and it will be very hard for them to get back where we started . I guess they made the betas of PoF that short so that not everybody complains their elite is too weak to not repeat the mistakes they made with HoT. I'm curious what will happen.

[Zacchary.6183]

> @Oxygen.5918 said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > You don't have to play deadeye, but you should at least understand WHY deadeye was made.

> >

> > Unlike Daredevil, it is SUPPOSED to be a completely different style of play, and it requires more thought in your actions than it did with Core Thief or Daredevil. I've not had a problem with any of the aforementioned complaints you've had in PvP outside of how clunky the spec currently is.

>

> Sorry, how does the Deadeye require any thought to play? To kneel or not to kneel, is that the question, Leo Shakespeare?

 

Because if you just jump into a fight with the rifle, you are almost guaranteed to die. You have to find an enemy that is already engaged with others so you can pick them off. Then you have to find a nice elevated spot so when you are drawing attention your enemy can't charge at you directly. Then you have to figure out who has to die first if there happens to be multiple targets. You also have to be ready to switch targets if one starts charging you. Finally, you have to know how, when and where to bail if someone does reach you, because again if you engage up close you will probably die. There is just way more planning involved in playing Deadeye than core or Daredevil thief.

[Saraneth.6021]

> @Zacchary.6183 said:

>There is just way more planning involved in playing Deadeye than core or Daredevil thief.

 

Hmm, not really. Basically the only planning is whether or not to use Rifle. I was so excited for it but it just falls short in a lot of ways. I opted P/P and am doing high dps while being able to move... not good. What's gonna end up happening is that they will nerf p/p to try force us to use rifle instead :/

 

 

[Amante.8109]

The trait line is pretty good, but Rifle itself is awful.

[Oxygen.5918]

> @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > @Oxygen.5918 said:

> > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > You don't have to play deadeye, but you should at least understand WHY deadeye was made.

> > >

> > > Unlike Daredevil, it is SUPPOSED to be a completely different style of play, and it requires more thought in your actions than it did with Core Thief or Daredevil. I've not had a problem with any of the aforementioned complaints you've had in PvP outside of how clunky the spec currently is.

> >

> > Sorry, how does the Deadeye require any thought to play? To kneel or not to kneel, is that the question, Leo Shakespeare?

>

> Because if you just jump into a fight with the rifle, you are almost guaranteed to die. You have to find an enemy that is already engaged with others so you can pick them off. Then you have to find a nice elevated spot so when you are drawing attention your enemy can't charge at you directly. Then you have to figure out who has to die first if there happens to be multiple targets. You also have to be ready to switch targets if one starts charging you. Finally, you have to know how, when and where to bail if someone does reach you, because again if you engage up close you will probably die. There is just way more planning involved in playing Deadeye than core or Daredevil thief.

 

That's an adorable imaginary fantasy scenario that will never happen.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @Oxygen.5918 said:

> > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > > @Oxygen.5918 said:

> > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > You don't have to play deadeye, but you should at least understand WHY deadeye was made.

> > > >

> > > > Unlike Daredevil, it is SUPPOSED to be a completely different style of play, and it requires more thought in your actions than it did with Core Thief or Daredevil. I've not had a problem with any of the aforementioned complaints you've had in PvP outside of how clunky the spec currently is.

> > >

> > > Sorry, how does the Deadeye require any thought to play? To kneel or not to kneel, is that the question, Leo Shakespeare?

> >

> > Because if you just jump into a fight with the rifle, you are almost guaranteed to die. You have to find an enemy that is already engaged with others so you can pick them off. Then you have to find a nice elevated spot so when you are drawing attention your enemy can't charge at you directly. Then you have to figure out who has to die first if there happens to be multiple targets. You also have to be ready to switch targets if one starts charging you. Finally, you have to know how, when and where to bail if someone does reach you, because again if you engage up close you will probably die. There is just way more planning involved in playing Deadeye than core or Daredevil thief.

>

> That's an adorable imaginary fantasy scenario that will never happen.

 

If you lack a functioning brain, then it'll never happen. It's a common trend for me so far :/ Multiple players? Kill priority goes as... who can die the fastest, who deals the most damage, most annoying, tank.

 

It's basic PvP thinking. Reduce the amount of damage they can do as quickly as possible.

[Oxygen.5918]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > @Oxygen.5918 said:

> > > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > > > @Oxygen.5918 said:

> > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > > You don't have to play deadeye, but you should at least understand WHY deadeye was made.

> > > > >

> > > > > Unlike Daredevil, it is SUPPOSED to be a completely different style of play, and it requires more thought in your actions than it did with Core Thief or Daredevil. I've not had a problem with any of the aforementioned complaints you've had in PvP outside of how clunky the spec currently is.

> > > >

> > > > Sorry, how does the Deadeye require any thought to play? To kneel or not to kneel, is that the question, Leo Shakespeare?

> > >

> > > Because if you just jump into a fight with the rifle, you are almost guaranteed to die. You have to find an enemy that is already engaged with others so you can pick them off. Then you have to find a nice elevated spot so when you are drawing attention your enemy can't charge at you directly. Then you have to figure out who has to die first if there happens to be multiple targets. You also have to be ready to switch targets if one starts charging you. Finally, you have to know how, when and where to bail if someone does reach you, because again if you engage up close you will probably die. There is just way more planning involved in playing Deadeye than core or Daredevil thief.

> >

> > That's an adorable imaginary fantasy scenario that will never happen.

>

> If you lack a functioning brain, then it'll never happen. It's a common trend for me so far :/ Multiple players? Kill priority goes as... who can die the fastest, who deals the most damage, most annoying, tank.

>

> It's basic PvP thinking. Reduce the amount of damage they can do as quickly as possible.

 

That applies to everyone, not just the DE.

[Murmaider.1805]

I'm surprised anybody is surprised by this. Was never a fan of the Rifle for Thief for these reasons. P/p Felt immobile enough as it were. Yet...... I'm enjoying Deadeye. But yes I'm getting A LOT of flack in PVP for not being mobile on decaps anymore. People will have to re-learn what they know about playing with thieves as this style is introduced.

[Urejt.5648]

I hate malice generation rate. I get max boons long after fight. It should be twice as fast.

 

I hate that pressing atack button (1-5 rifle) is not automaticly turning charachter toword enemy. Instead it says no line of sight even tho enemy is 2 meters on left side on flat ground. Pistol is turning char automaticly so i can stutter step.

 

I hate lack of speed. Rifle 2 sohuld give swiftness out of combat if no enemy is hit.

 

 

One or two more games on deadeye and its time to ditch this trash till the patch.

[Sobx.1758]

> @Oxygen.5918 said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @Oxygen.5918 said:

> > > > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > > > > @Oxygen.5918 said:

> > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > > > You don't have to play deadeye, but you should at least understand WHY deadeye was made.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Unlike Daredevil, it is SUPPOSED to be a completely different style of play, and it requires more thought in your actions than it did with Core Thief or Daredevil. I've not had a problem with any of the aforementioned complaints you've had in PvP outside of how clunky the spec currently is.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sorry, how does the Deadeye require any thought to play? To kneel or not to kneel, is that the question, Leo Shakespeare?

> > > >

> > > > Because if you just jump into a fight with the rifle, you are almost guaranteed to die. You have to find an enemy that is already engaged with others so you can pick them off. Then you have to find a nice elevated spot so when you are drawing attention your enemy can't charge at you directly. Then you have to figure out who has to die first if there happens to be multiple targets. You also have to be ready to switch targets if one starts charging you. Finally, you have to know how, when and where to bail if someone does reach you, because again if you engage up close you will probably die. There is just way more planning involved in playing Deadeye than core or Daredevil thief.

> > >

> > > That's an adorable imaginary fantasy scenario that will never happen.

> >

> > If you lack a functioning brain, then it'll never happen. It's a common trend for me so far :/ Multiple players? Kill priority goes as... who can die the fastest, who deals the most damage, most annoying, tank.

> >

> > It's basic PvP thinking. Reduce the amount of damage they can do as quickly as possible.

>

> That applies to everyone, not just the DE.

 

Except it's easier to do on an incredibly mobile DD. Both engaging and disengaging is easier on DD, so automatically you need to be better on DE to be able to survive. So what exactly is your point here?

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @Sobx.1758 said:

> > @Oxygen.5918 said:

> > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > @Oxygen.5918 said:

> > > > > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > > > > > @Oxygen.5918 said:

> > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > > > > You don't have to play deadeye, but you should at least understand WHY deadeye was made.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Unlike Daredevil, it is SUPPOSED to be a completely different style of play, and it requires more thought in your actions than it did with Core Thief or Daredevil. I've not had a problem with any of the aforementioned complaints you've had in PvP outside of how clunky the spec currently is.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Sorry, how does the Deadeye require any thought to play? To kneel or not to kneel, is that the question, Leo Shakespeare?

> > > > >

> > > > > Because if you just jump into a fight with the rifle, you are almost guaranteed to die. You have to find an enemy that is already engaged with others so you can pick them off. Then you have to find a nice elevated spot so when you are drawing attention your enemy can't charge at you directly. Then you have to figure out who has to die first if there happens to be multiple targets. You also have to be ready to switch targets if one starts charging you. Finally, you have to know how, when and where to bail if someone does reach you, because again if you engage up close you will probably die. There is just way more planning involved in playing Deadeye than core or Daredevil thief.

> > > >

> > > > That's an adorable imaginary fantasy scenario that will never happen.

> > >

> > > If you lack a functioning brain, then it'll never happen. It's a common trend for me so far :/ Multiple players? Kill priority goes as... who can die the fastest, who deals the most damage, most annoying, tank.

> > >

> > > It's basic PvP thinking. Reduce the amount of damage they can do as quickly as possible.

> >

> > That applies to everyone, not just the DE.

>

> Except it's easier to do on an incredibly mobile DD. Both engaging and disengaging is easier on DD, so automatically you need to be better on DE to be able to survive. So what exactly is your point here?

 

Adding onto this, with dead-eye currently you -really- need to learn how to pick your fights.

 

That's not saying that deadeye isn't boned if someone else forces the fight onto you. I agree there's quite a bit holding him back. But it is not the reasons you have listed.

[Korochun.5862]

To put it simply, Deadeye is a p/p spec. Take d/d for melee, use Maleficent Seven, use runes of Might/Scholar (personal preference), run Mercy, and you can do absolutely staggering DPS with a neverending Unload chain. In melee, Daggers synergize extremely well with the Elite, since it gives you a stupidly long backstab rotation.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @Korochun.5862 said:

> To put it simply, Deadeye is a p/p spec. Take d/d for melee, use Maleficent Seven, use runes of Might/Scholar (personal preference), run Mercy, and you can do absolutely staggering DPS with a neverending Unload chain. In melee, Daggers synergize extremely well with the Elite, since it gives you a stupidly long backstab rotation.

 

I could see D/D Deadeye working with Griever's in Raids. Auto's naturally poison, you can apply bleed, you get damage bonuses from Deadly Arts, and Critical Strikes, As well as 21* Damage boost from mal-7. The Backstab chain is obviously going to fuck some shit up. And you get quite a large amount of damage from Shadow Flare at full stacks with 49% increased damage. Put some poison on your utility bar, and maybe roll for initiative. Though that'd probably only be useful for HoT raids.

 

Who knows what the new raids are going to be like.

[Korochun.5862]

 

 

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> Put some poison on your utility bar, and maybe roll for initiative. Though that'd probably only be useful for HoT raids.

 

Mercy is great because you get 7 initiative back if you time it correctly, and it removes Malice downtime (5s). Revealed Malice also synergizes very well with backstab spam. Maleficent Seven is basically amazing.

 

So the utility bar is basically flare/mercy/signet

[nacario.9417]

what i hate most about deadeye is all the rude ppl out there, so much shit thrown around cuz ur a deadeye and ppl expect this and that. My block list keeps growing, i just cant take rude toddlers serious anymore

[Oxygen.5918]

> @nacario.9417 said:

> what i hate most about deadeye is all the rude ppl out there, so much kitten thrown around cuz ur a deadeye and ppl expect this and that. My block list keeps growing, i just cant take rude toddlers serious anymore

 

Classic case of pot calling the kettle black.

[Griever.8150]

Meh, kinda what i was thinking when i was stuck as a Daredevil, when i made a thief i thought i'd be sneaking around, stabbing people and using poisons etc, you know, generic DnD Rogue stuff, not bouncing around like a monkey while wearing a staff. I guess Elite Specs are kinda meant as mold-breakers. Thankfully builds like D/P were around to make things right but then that build felt nothing like what the Daredevil was meant to be, it was just an ultra-mobile generic Thief, kinda rendering the whole point of it moot.

 

Either way, Deadeye plays a million times more like a Thief for me than Daredevil ever did. I use and abuse Stealth mechanics with the spec and i like the huge burst setups the specs can do, specially in sPvP, i just erase people when i play properly. That's what a Thief should do in my book, be stealthy and erase people when he manages to creates the right opportunities for himself.

[caveman.5840]

I wish u could use mark with out a target

 

and the no line of sight is a pain I don't know y it cant just auto point u at the target like every other weapon