Phantasm amount reduction suggestions

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > > * Ignoring how the points you are making about CP also apply to IH

> > If you ignore literally everything about it.

> >

> > > * Using the same arguments to defend IH that people are making about CP while ignoring them when used in defense of CP

> >

> > On a power build you can expect Mirage Thrust to do about 2,000 damage on a critical strike. Clones will critically strike for abou 40 with Mirage Thrust. Not 4,000. Not 400. 40.

> >

> > That means the increase in Mirage Thrust's damage output with Infinite Horizon is 6%.

> >

> > Split Surge will typically do about 4,000 damage on Berserker Stats. Clone Spatial surge ranged from 400-700. This means that with three clones Spatial Surge gets an extremely high balled damage increase of 52%. Leagues better than 6% but a far cry away from 400%.

> >

> > The next few skills are calculated using viper's gear with renegade ruins, Signet of Midnight and Signet of Domination as the bulk of their damage is condition based. I'm also using the axe trait.

> >

> > Imaginary Axes has the physical component of it's attack, which on viper's gear ranges from 350-550 plus the additional 272 damage from the traited portion of the skill. Each axe from the ambush applies three stacks of torment, with a seventh stack from the trait. Torment applied will add up to 3,647 damage. Overall this skill does about 5,000 damage per ambush.

> >

> > Clones will typically do 40-60 physical damage, plus another 40-60 damage on the traited portion of the attack. However, each axe only does one stack of torment, one third of the player's ambush. Torment damage from the clone damage adds up to 1,309. High balling it, this means that a clone's ambush comes around to about 1489.

> >

> > This means that three clones will add up to 4,467 damage per ambush attack, or 89% increase in damage. This is definitely better, almost double damage on this one attack. But it's still no where near quadrupling the damage output the way CP+SoE do.

> >

> > Ether Barrage is hot garbage and I refuse to actually test it fully because of it's extremely unpredictable nature of randomly applying either torment or confusion. The player will about 1,200 physical damage across 5 bolts Phantasm damage does about 105 across all five hits. Condition duration on either condition applied is explicitly half the damage of the mesmer's. In a hypathetical world where scepter get's fixed to replace it's confusion with torment the ambush does about 2445 damage for the player. Clone damage will add up to 725 damage for the ambush, times three equals 2175. Total increase in damage from three clone ambush attacks adds up to 88%.

> >

> > The only outlier appears to be the staff ambush, Chaos Vortex. And you know what? I have no problem if they halve the condition duration on that one, too.

> >

> > None of the ambush attacks that actually matter come anywhere near as close to quadrupling the damage output of ambush attacks the way Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether do. Period. End of story. You're lying. You know you're lying. Get bent.

> >

> > > * Ignoring that people are pointing out to you that SoE not CP is causing the problem you are complaining about

> > Both SoE and Chronophantasma double Phantasm damage. SoE doubles the quantity of phantasms. CP gives them an extra attack and doubles the duration they stick around.

> >

> > They're both a problem.

> >

> > > * Saying that a PvP/PvE split isn't good enough, it needs to be removed from both modes

> > Why should I care about one build you happen to like like among many viable top tier builds when you're straight up saying "kitten your entire game mode"?

> >

> >

>

> But clearly you don't understand. There are 3 clones performing the ambush attack with you, so it very clearly means that each ambush attack does quadruple damage

 

Look man, it would be really unfortunate if this one build that only existed for about a month and a half in this form and at this level of efficacy was suddenly less top tier. Don't you care about my play style? Or legacy?

 

Builds come and go and change all the time. Power Warrior was a staple of the game and I played it for years. When I started raiding, I made a Support Chrono and that ended up becoming my main in all modes of play. But Warrior was still a thing I played when needed, same with Power Tempest and Magi Druid. But not long after I started playing, Power Berserker couldn't keep up so I switched to Viper's Berserker. And I still had fun when I played my warrior.

 

Now, years later, power warrior has had a rework and a resurgence thanks to a few interesting traits and Spell breaker. And that's cool now, too.

 

Condition Chronomancer was a top tier build in PvP for years. And it was what I cut my teeth on after getting back into GW2 during Heart of Thorns. I really loved the game play and flavor of the build. But with Heart of Thorns it couldn't compete with Mirage in terms of it's condition burst. But I adapted and found joy in Carrion Ineptitude Mirage. Now, Chronomancer is back in PvP and that's super cool. It's just grossly overpowered at the moment but if CS+SoE were removed it would be a solid, viable alternative to Mirage instead of being the grossest thing in the game right now.

 

Everyone's builds come and go all the time. It is never the end of the world. It wasn't the end of the world when Power Berserker was no longer particularly good (For raids). People adapted, found other builds and other classes to enjoy.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > > > > > So...Why not just revert Chrono phantasma to the original version in Spvp, where it requires you to shatter to get the phantasms back.

> > > > > > > > > This way if you kill the clones. You don't get the resummoned phantasm.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Like it used to be.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Also.

> > > > > > > > > I explained this in another thread but.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > half of the illusions in those images are clones.

> > > > > > > > > Nothing you do to phantasms is going to stop you from being to overwhelmed or confused by clones shattering ( and I still want to know how you get visually confused from clones in the shatter animation, that's literally a sign that says " hey dummy I'm a clone and I don't exist in 2 seconds cause I was shattered)

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that Chronophantasma should be reworked so that when you use a shatter skill, the clones shattered become their phantasm counterparts again and use their attack? Because that would be leagues more powerful than it already currently is.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > That's how it was before, and required the clones to successfully shatter.

> > > > > > > Wasn't "leagues" more powerful for almost 3 years.

> > > > > > > Why would that suddenly change if the original iteration of chronophantasma was restored?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Because the power levels of phantasms changed radically with the rework. Aside from the focus phantasm (Which really got shafted with the rework) all of them are leagues more powerful across the board. Some of them have become so much more powerful as to be incomparable to their original counterparts like Disenchanter and Defender. Phantasm before had moderately powerful attacks, but their values was that they persisted until they were manually shattered and would just keep racking up more and more damage. Because they only attack once once now, all that damage they would have racked up was heavily reweighted into their initial attack.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Chronophantasma wasn't overpowered before because Phantasms when set up did a moderate amount of chip damage and if resummoned just continued to do a moderate amount of chip damage.

> > > > >

> > > > > But the current trait is strong because it doesn't require you to do anything to get the new phantasms, since phantasms no longer count towards the clone limit and are resummoned after doing a near instant attack. I think this change would be much more beneficial in reducing the amount of visual clutter and taking out the passive nature of the AI summon by forcing you to keep track of where your clones end up, and also your cooldowns. Things like disenchanter and defender are going to be summoned twice regardless of with the current iteration of the trait. But if for example they became clones and were cleaved down. They would cease to exist. No more double phantasm .

> > > > > This is what I think the trait needs, counterplay. Also, just to be sure, Like the original iteration of the trait. When a phantasm was resummoned the first time. That was it.

> > > > > You couldn't just continue to shatter and get back the same phantasm. That would be broken, and never interacted that way.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > The current trait is strong because almost every one of our phantasms are potentially fight endingly strong. Avengers hit for anywhere between 4k-7k on other players. Disenchancters will crit on boonless targets for 11k+. Defenders are a reliable 6-7k damage and can easily go up to 20k damage in a fight. The only thing your proposed change would do is give players control over when their phantasms would do their burst and would mean that phantasms would now coordinate their burst.

> > >

> > > My suggestion would also give people time to react, which is something that you don't have.

> > > Visual clutter is an issue for you as well is it not?

> > >

> > > By controlling what is on the screen instead of having them persist for so long you also reduce that, If you see a shatter and you know how to dodge then this change would do nothing but help you since the attacks of phantasms becomes predictable and timely.

> > > Currently you could have each deal damage at different or random intervals while also continuing to pressure the player, since like you said, these phantams do fight ending damage.

> > > Currently it's hard to decide on what to dodge, and when to dodge.

> > > The other option is to keep things as is and change the numerical value on phantasms

> > > Something Anet is much more likely to do.

> > >

> > > So it's a pick your poison at this point.

> > >

> > > Edit: though it would be funny if they reverted the trait and nerfed the damage as well.

> >

> > The poison I pick is that Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether don't deserve to exist in a world where phantasms are this powerful. One heal skill and one trait should not be turning a potential 10k burst into a 40k burst and your proposed change complicates the process but still allows for this.

> ..

> ....

> ......... k

> You and I both know that isn't even remotely likely to happen.

>

> I'm about 80% sure they will just nerf phantasms in spvp

 

No. It's too much of a visual problem. But it probably won't feel like a nerf in other modes. They don't need a slow stream of AI.

[Carighan.6758]

Visual clutter is **not** a problem which can - or should - be solved on a per-class or per-skill-type basis.

 

I fully agree that visual clutter is **the** biggest problem in the game right now (right next to an engine from 1782 which cannot even utilize my graphics card any more so everything is done on the CPU, or that's what it feels like at least), but the solution is as easy as is finding the problem: sliders!

 

I mean, playing FF14 for a bit right now, their options-menu makes you blush as a GW2 player. Hundreds upon hundreds of options. Visual effects detail customizable for me, others, enemies, etc. Chat log colors by chat type, so color-blind people aren't screwed. All UI elements can be moved, resized, customized. Multiple UI configurations can be hotswapped around. Detailed name-display settings, not just a few checkboxes like in GW2. Including custom colors however you want them. All control options swappable betweenn a M+KB and a Controller mode, including a custom hotbar type for controller use. And and and, seriously, that options menu is the gold standard of MMOs.

 

And GW2? **We cannot even customize spell detail for other player's spells!**

 

For shame, ANet. The solution is trivial. Every other MMO has shown that it works. Take the fingers out of your ears and do it.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> Visual clutter is **not** a problem which can - or should - be solved on a per-class or per-skill-type basis.

>

> I fully agree that visual clutter is **the** biggest problem in the game right now (right next to an engine from 1782 which cannot even utilize my graphics card any more so everything is done on the CPU, or that's what it feels like at least), but the solution is as easy as is finding the problem: sliders

 

I don't know who you are agreeing with or what sliders have to do with reducing the number of objects on screen. Ultimately one cleans-up visual clutter by cutting out the excess. In this case: reduce the staff and greatsword back to one phantasm each; remove the damage from disenchanter and defender; rework mental defense; etc;

 

We can and should return to the previous amount, and the class doesn't have to be nerfed by this process.

[DaShi.1368]

I have to agree that SoE and CP together are too much. Some thoughts, not having time to read the whole thread. :open_mouth:

 

CP, I'd imagine Anet reducing the damage of summoned phantasms while using this trait by 20-25%. You'd still do more damage with it than without, but no longer oppressively so. You'd have to hit with both phantasms to do better damage than one phantasm without the trait. So there's a bit more risk/reward to it.

 

SoE is a bit more difficult. I could see Anet replacing the phantasm recharge with alacrity and calling it a day.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> I have to agree that SoE and CP together are too much. Some thoughts, not having time to read the whole thread. :open_mouth:

>

> CP, I'd imagine Anet reducing the damage of summoned phantasms while using this trait by 20-25%. You'd still do more damage with it than without, but no longer oppressively so. You'd have to hit with both phantasms to do better damage than one phantasm without the trait. So there's a bit more risk/reward to it.

>

> SoE is a bit more difficult. I could see Anet replacing the phantasm recharge with alacrity and calling it a day.

 

SotE needs its active effect changed. I want it to become cleanse 1 condition per active clone (cleanse makes sense on a heal, still scales off of number of clones out, and makes up for losing the cleanse on disenchanter).

 

For CP, reducing the damage of the phantasms won't really solve the problem with it. Its still getting twice as many phantasms out of every phantasm skill from a single trait investment. Compare that to IB, which only affects a single phantasm, and still lowers the damage by 25%.

[Levetty.1279]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > * Saying that a PvP/PvE split isn't good enough, it needs to be removed from both modes

> Why should I care about one build you happen to like like among many viable top tier builds when you're straight up saying "kitten your entire game mode"?

 

Thanks for finally admitting I am right.

It hilarious when people come here and say 'look I love *insert class* but I want PvP to be balanced' and then make it immediately obvious that they have no interest in PvP balance and just hate a particular build, skill/trait or the class. Hell I even came up with an idea of how to actually nerf the PvP build and the PvE build to make you happy through nerfing SoE and you just reported me for harassment, so obviously its about balancing PVP and not just your hatred of one trait.

 

CP isn't going to fix the problem you are pretending to have and its been pointed out multiple times. IH is already stronger. Removing DPS Chrono won't fix the problem you have where you want a PvE DPS build removed because you don't like the build in PvP. Sorry just facts.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > * Saying that a PvP/PvE split isn't good enough, it needs to be removed from both modes

> > Why should I care about one build you happen to like like among many viable top tier builds when you're straight up saying "kitten your entire game mode"?

>

> Thanks for finally admitting I am right.

> It hilarious when people come here and say 'look I love *insert class* but I want PvP to be balanced' and then make it immediately obvious that they have no interest in PvP balance and just hate a particular build, skill/trait or the class. Hell I even came up with an idea of how to actually nerf the PvP build and the PvE build to make you happy through nerfing SoE and you just reported me for harassment, so obviously its about balancing PVP and not just your hatred of one trait.

>

> CP isn't going to fix the problem you are pretending to have and its been pointed out multiple times. IH is already stronger. Removing DPS Chrono won't fix the problem you have where you want a PvE DPS build removed because you don't like the build in PvP. Sorry just facts.

 

IH isn't actually stronger, not taking a side in this slap fight just wanted to point that out.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/490168#Comment_490168

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> We're splitting [signet of the Ether](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_the_Ether "Signet of the Ether") in the next release. (Scheduled for tomorrow, unless things go awry.) In PvP and WvW, Phantasm skills are recharged by 50% rather than 100%. 50% of the base recharge subtracted from the current recharge. If you have a 40 second phantasm that is on a 35 second recharge, it will change to a 15 second recharge.

>

> We know it won't get us all the way there on Mesmer balance, but more will come with the full balance release.

>

> Edit: Made explanation more clear.

 

That should make a pretty significant reduction on phantasm burst.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/490168#Comment_490168

> > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > We're splitting [signet of the Ether](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_the_Ether "Signet of the Ether") in the next release. (Scheduled for tomorrow, unless things go awry.) In PvP and WvW, Phantasm skills are recharged by 50% rather than 100%. 50% of the base recharge subtracted from the current recharge. If you have a 40 second phantasm that is on a 35 second recharge, it will change to a 15 second recharge.

> >

> > We know it won't get us all the way there on Mesmer balance, but more will come with the full balance release.

> >

> > Edit: Made explanation more clear.

>

> That should make a pretty significant reduction on phantasm burst.

 

Unless CP is also addressed then this won't be nearly enough unless phantasms are absolutely gutted

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/490168#Comment_490168

> > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > > We're splitting [signet of the Ether](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_the_Ether "Signet of the Ether") in the next release. (Scheduled for tomorrow, unless things go awry.) In PvP and WvW, Phantasm skills are recharged by 50% rather than 100%. 50% of the base recharge subtracted from the current recharge. If you have a 40 second phantasm that is on a 35 second recharge, it will change to a 15 second recharge.

> > >

> > > We know it won't get us all the way there on Mesmer balance, but more will come with the full balance release.

> > >

> > > Edit: Made explanation more clear.

> >

> > That should make a pretty significant reduction on phantasm burst.

>

> Unless CP is also addressed then this won't be nearly enough unless phantasms are absolutely gutted

 

"Significant reduction" and "enough" aren't necessarily the same. Still the fact you won't be able to use any given phantasm more than one (twice on Chrono) in a burst is pretty significant overall.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/490168#Comment_490168

> > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > > > We're splitting [signet of the Ether](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_the_Ether "Signet of the Ether") in the next release. (Scheduled for tomorrow, unless things go awry.) In PvP and WvW, Phantasm skills are recharged by 50% rather than 100%. 50% of the base recharge subtracted from the current recharge. If you have a 40 second phantasm that is on a 35 second recharge, it will change to a 15 second recharge.

> > > >

> > > > We know it won't get us all the way there on Mesmer balance, but more will come with the full balance release.

> > > >

> > > > Edit: Made explanation more clear.

> > >

> > > That should make a pretty significant reduction on phantasm burst.

> >

> > Unless CP is also addressed then this won't be nearly enough unless phantasms are absolutely gutted

>

> "Significant reduction" and "enough" aren't necessarily the same. Still the fact you won't be able to use any given phantasm more than one (twice on Chrono) in a burst is pretty significant overall.

 

Its not as significant as you believe, even though it is a welcome change.

[eldenbri.1059]

Given the change to Signet of the Ether, an "ammo" approach to Chronophantasma doesn't make sense. If you assume that's the long term design for Signet, does this list of changes make sense in terms of balancing the remainder of the visual clutter problem:

- Change staff to single phantasm (increase damage, make two clones to compensate)

- Change Imagined Burden to not create a second phantasm (increase damage on the berserker phantasm to compensate)

- Change chronophantasma to have phantasm perform a second attack (versus resummon the same phantasm - this reduces screen clutter somewhat and gives more counter-play options)

 

Thanks to everyone who helped contribute ideas here. There are a few threads in other places where there's just criticism and no suggestions.

 

Have fun!