Account suspension discussion [merged]

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > > > @"Tomas.6092" said:

> > > > > > Anet could have gave an explanation in tickets individually, why exactly person got banned, for what kind of software or w/e they were using. I mean it's not hard, they found and banned 1.6k players, might as give them explanation why that happened. Since many people are saying that they were not fairly banned and haven't done anything wrong.

> > > > >

> > > > > So they can alter the software to better avoid the bans next time after their 6 months are up? A decent programmer can come up with a lot of great code in 6 months. TRUST AND BELIEVE girlfriend! You are out of your mind if you think ANET should willing divulge information used to track and action these accounts.

> > > >

> > > > Why should anyone trust and believe you and not someone saying that they got wrongfully banned?

> > >

> > > You're basically making the argument "Should someone trust facts or an opinion?" If I say the sky is blue, and give you the facts to why it's blue, and then someone says "The sky is actually green," which argument is the valid one?

> > >

> > > The facts are quite simple here my friend:

> > > 1. Memory writes or modifications are IMPLICITLY against the User Agreement/ToS

> > > 2. Anything that attempts to read from protected memory is against the ToS, and has been stated numerous times by devs, up to and including Chris Cleary.

> > > 3. Any addon or modification that directly reverse engineers the client in ANY way is against the ToS/UA

> > > 4. Any addon or mod that gathers data, actively, that is NOT readily available to the player is against the ToS. This is why TacO is permitted, because it does not ACTIVELY gather data, but rather, utilizes static data in an overlay. This is "dumb tech" as far as programming prowess is concerned.

> > > 5. Any addon or mod that removes input from a human player for more than 1 keystroke per key is expressly DISALLOWED - this excludes musical macros for playing in game musical instruments.

> > >

> > > You're aware that these bans were the result of ANET looking for active memory writing or modification and/or protected memory reading. In fact, given the extraordinarily low number of bans versus use-case of mods or addons used throughout the community, I would assume (and this is an OPINION based on facts available) that these bans are based SOLELY on memory modification and/or writes, not even on reads.

> > >

> > > So, I'm sorry you lack the educational background/have a layman's understanding of the basics of programming/computer science, but this is pretty cut and dry. The people claiming to have only been using ArcDPS or TacO and having been banned are outright LYING about the situation. ANET knows it, anyone with more than a passing interest in programming or CS knows it. You cannot sit here, with a layman's understanding of the situation, and give them any shred of credibility.

> > >

> > > So, you shouldn't trust any one particular person or another on this subject. You should trust objective FACT; however, this is something you are clearly unwilling or lacking the understanding, at the moment, to do.

> >

> > I am arguing with you, because you act like authority. You are not, you are a regular player.

> >

> > Player X says: I dont deserve a ban. Anet made a mistake.

> >

> > Your response: Anet didn't do any mistake, you are guilty.

> >

> > You have no base to post judgments about other players here. Players should appeal through CS if they feel Anet made a mistake. You have no way to see anet's internal reports to decide one way or another who is or who is not wrongfully banned. My only gripe is against Gaile's "no appeals" message.

>

> I am a regular player who interacts with code on a daily basis, and has a fundamental understanding of what ANET has actioned these accounts for. It's not rocket science to figure out how they found the accounts in question or what they were up to. In fact, it's computer science!

>

> Do you realistically believe that ANET just through together some rough heurstics to find "suspicious" addons, and somehow, some way, the code for just a few people's addons worked differently from everyone else's? Oh please. Code is code is code. It works the same way, at this level of sophistication... An addon that has had a new fork created is a an entirely different story... if a player chooses to use a non "official" fork of an addon, that is their CHOICE, and they will be actioned if that choice was a poor one.

>

> Ignorance is not an excuse. Period.

>

> So, again... I am sorry you aren't seeing what has actually occurred here. It's extraordinarily obvious. These accounts were actioned due to a very reliable detection method for malicious code that was either reading protected memory, writing to active memory or writing to reserved memory space and using injection at some stage. It's extremely simple to interpret what ANET did, and how they did it, with a simple understanding of former posts from Mr. Cleary on the matter and the wording of their ToS/UA.

>

> These players are 100% guilty. That's the end of this tale.

 

Anet has a history of false positive reports and wrongfully handed bans. Yes, I believe they could make mistakes here. Every human does mistakes.

[FyzE.3472]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"FyzE.3472" said:

> > > @"Vyrulisse.1246" said:

> > > > @"FyzE.3472" said:

> > > > > @"Vyrulisse.1246" said:

> > > > > No appeals for anyone A.net? Really? You've been wrong before. Why do people hit by this have no option to have their situation looked at?

> > > >

> > > > Also, there have been a lot of cases of people claiming "well, I have not done anything wrong" on which devs answered "well, u've been using x exlpoit/3d party program for x hours" sooo yeah. I would rather trust the devs. Also there have been literally videos made on youtube, saying "me and my wife are innocent!" and after devs explaining what they have done, those same videos were just removed by that same couple. Strange right?

> > >

> > > My counter to that is: Tough.

> > >

> > > If they want to put on a big show about banning accounts then they need to be prepared to deal with people asking for a second look. In many cases people put a lot of time and money into these accounts and to have even ONE be false is unacceptable...if you don't want to put in the effort to fix it which is appears they do not. I believe most of these, if not all, are probably legit but I also believe people should have the ability to say "Might wanna take another look." and have the CHANCE to clear their names and their accounts of this if A.net is wrong. They've been wrong before and only when a sufficient stink on Reddit was raised did some of these people get their bans overturned.

> >

> > That or just ban the freakin' cheaters lol. I don't care if it takes a few non-cheaters with them.

>

> That's bizarre on your side to say it. This is anticustomer approach and if we allow companies to behave like this, we're going to hurt ourselves. There is no excuse to ban innocent people, especially if they invested money in the game. This would probably be made into legal case against Anet if they didnt care about banning innocent accounts.

>

 

Oh no, the world is not perfect! Who knew right? Anyway, I DO believe Anet devs have a brain so those false bans WILL be lifted.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"FyzE.3472" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"FyzE.3472" said:

> > > > @"Vyrulisse.1246" said:

> > > > > @"FyzE.3472" said:

> > > > > > @"Vyrulisse.1246" said:

> > > > > > No appeals for anyone A.net? Really? You've been wrong before. Why do people hit by this have no option to have their situation looked at?

> > > > >

> > > > > Also, there have been a lot of cases of people claiming "well, I have not done anything wrong" on which devs answered "well, u've been using x exlpoit/3d party program for x hours" sooo yeah. I would rather trust the devs. Also there have been literally videos made on youtube, saying "me and my wife are innocent!" and after devs explaining what they have done, those same videos were just removed by that same couple. Strange right?

> > > >

> > > > My counter to that is: Tough.

> > > >

> > > > If they want to put on a big show about banning accounts then they need to be prepared to deal with people asking for a second look. In many cases people put a lot of time and money into these accounts and to have even ONE be false is unacceptable...if you don't want to put in the effort to fix it which is appears they do not. I believe most of these, if not all, are probably legit but I also believe people should have the ability to say "Might wanna take another look." and have the CHANCE to clear their names and their accounts of this if A.net is wrong. They've been wrong before and only when a sufficient stink on Reddit was raised did some of these people get their bans overturned.

> > >

> > > That or just ban the freakin' cheaters lol. I don't care if it takes a few non-cheaters with them.

> >

> > That's bizarre on your side to say it. This is anticustomer approach and if we allow companies to behave like this, we're going to hurt ourselves. There is no excuse to ban innocent people, especially if they invested money in the game. This would probably be made into legal case against Anet if they didnt care about banning innocent accounts.

> >

>

> Oh no, the world is not perfect! Who knew right? Anyway, I DO believe Anet devs have a brain so those false bans WILL be lifted.

 

I hope so too. I don't understand your sarcasm though, did I offend you in any way?

 

My question is, how are they going to lift bans if they don't accept appeals?

[Sojar.1495]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > > > > @"Tomas.6092" said:

> > > > > > > Anet could have gave an explanation in tickets individually, why exactly person got banned, for what kind of software or w/e they were using. I mean it's not hard, they found and banned 1.6k players, might as give them explanation why that happened. Since many people are saying that they were not fairly banned and haven't done anything wrong.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So they can alter the software to better avoid the bans next time after their 6 months are up? A decent programmer can come up with a lot of great code in 6 months. TRUST AND BELIEVE girlfriend! You are out of your mind if you think ANET should willing divulge information used to track and action these accounts.

> > > > >

> > > > > Why should anyone trust and believe you and not someone saying that they got wrongfully banned?

> > > >

> > > > You're basically making the argument "Should someone trust facts or an opinion?" If I say the sky is blue, and give you the facts to why it's blue, and then someone says "The sky is actually green," which argument is the valid one?

> > > >

> > > > The facts are quite simple here my friend:

> > > > 1. Memory writes or modifications are IMPLICITLY against the User Agreement/ToS

> > > > 2. Anything that attempts to read from protected memory is against the ToS, and has been stated numerous times by devs, up to and including Chris Cleary.

> > > > 3. Any addon or modification that directly reverse engineers the client in ANY way is against the ToS/UA

> > > > 4. Any addon or mod that gathers data, actively, that is NOT readily available to the player is against the ToS. This is why TacO is permitted, because it does not ACTIVELY gather data, but rather, utilizes static data in an overlay. This is "dumb tech" as far as programming prowess is concerned.

> > > > 5. Any addon or mod that removes input from a human player for more than 1 keystroke per key is expressly DISALLOWED - this excludes musical macros for playing in game musical instruments.

> > > >

> > > > You're aware that these bans were the result of ANET looking for active memory writing or modification and/or protected memory reading. In fact, given the extraordinarily low number of bans versus use-case of mods or addons used throughout the community, I would assume (and this is an OPINION based on facts available) that these bans are based SOLELY on memory modification and/or writes, not even on reads.

> > > >

> > > > So, I'm sorry you lack the educational background/have a layman's understanding of the basics of programming/computer science, but this is pretty cut and dry. The people claiming to have only been using ArcDPS or TacO and having been banned are outright LYING about the situation. ANET knows it, anyone with more than a passing interest in programming or CS knows it. You cannot sit here, with a layman's understanding of the situation, and give them any shred of credibility.

> > > >

> > > > So, you shouldn't trust any one particular person or another on this subject. You should trust objective FACT; however, this is something you are clearly unwilling or lacking the understanding, at the moment, to do.

> > >

> > > I am arguing with you, because you act like authority. You are not, you are a regular player.

> > >

> > > Player X says: I dont deserve a ban. Anet made a mistake.

> > >

> > > Your response: Anet didn't do any mistake, you are guilty.

> > >

> > > You have no base to post judgments about other players here. Players should appeal through CS if they feel Anet made a mistake. You have no way to see anet's internal reports to decide one way or another who is or who is not wrongfully banned. My only gripe is against Gaile's "no appeals" message.

> >

> > I am a regular player who interacts with code on a daily basis, and has a fundamental understanding of what ANET has actioned these accounts for. It's not rocket science to figure out how they found the accounts in question or what they were up to. In fact, it's computer science!

> >

> > Do you realistically believe that ANET just through together some rough heurstics to find "suspicious" addons, and somehow, some way, the code for just a few people's addons worked differently from everyone else's? Oh please. Code is code is code. It works the same way, at this level of sophistication... An addon that has had a new fork created is a an entirely different story... if a player chooses to use a non "official" fork of an addon, that is their CHOICE, and they will be actioned if that choice was a poor one.

> >

> > Ignorance is not an excuse. Period.

> >

> > So, again... I am sorry you aren't seeing what has actually occurred here. It's extraordinarily obvious. These accounts were actioned due to a very reliable detection method for malicious code that was either reading protected memory, writing to active memory or writing to reserved memory space and using injection at some stage. It's extremely simple to interpret what ANET did, and how they did it, with a simple understanding of former posts from Mr. Cleary on the matter and the wording of their ToS/UA.

> >

> > These players are 100% guilty. That's the end of this tale.

>

> Anet has a history of false positive reports and wrongfully handed bans. Yes, I believe they could make mistakes here. Every human does mistakes.

 

The "false positives" you are suggesting are not applicable here. This is an ENTIRELY different situation. The code is either directing the mod or addon to WRITE to memory, in some form, or is reading from PROTECTED memory through a workaround. Either way, it's actually quite obvious if you're looking for it.

 

You can't get a false positive on something like this. And suggesting ANET reveal exactly what they were looking for, how they found it, what it was, etc.... that's just asking for the creators of these forks to create workarounds to make detecting them even more difficult.

 

Please, stop throwing out the term "false positive" into the discussion wherein it is COMPLETELY INAPPLICABLE. This is not the case of a human being reviewing or following a player around... this is the case of "Does software do X or Y" If yes, flag account for ban. If no, move along. It's cut and dry.

[FyzE.3472]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"FyzE.3472" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > @"FyzE.3472" said:

> > > > > @"Vyrulisse.1246" said:

> > > > > > @"FyzE.3472" said:

> > > > > > > @"Vyrulisse.1246" said:

> > > > > > > No appeals for anyone A.net? Really? You've been wrong before. Why do people hit by this have no option to have their situation looked at?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Also, there have been a lot of cases of people claiming "well, I have not done anything wrong" on which devs answered "well, u've been using x exlpoit/3d party program for x hours" sooo yeah. I would rather trust the devs. Also there have been literally videos made on youtube, saying "me and my wife are innocent!" and after devs explaining what they have done, those same videos were just removed by that same couple. Strange right?

> > > > >

> > > > > My counter to that is: Tough.

> > > > >

> > > > > If they want to put on a big show about banning accounts then they need to be prepared to deal with people asking for a second look. In many cases people put a lot of time and money into these accounts and to have even ONE be false is unacceptable...if you don't want to put in the effort to fix it which is appears they do not. I believe most of these, if not all, are probably legit but I also believe people should have the ability to say "Might wanna take another look." and have the CHANCE to clear their names and their accounts of this if A.net is wrong. They've been wrong before and only when a sufficient stink on Reddit was raised did some of these people get their bans overturned.

> > > >

> > > > That or just ban the freakin' cheaters lol. I don't care if it takes a few non-cheaters with them.

> > >

> > > That's bizarre on your side to say it. This is anticustomer approach and if we allow companies to behave like this, we're going to hurt ourselves. There is no excuse to ban innocent people, especially if they invested money in the game. This would probably be made into legal case against Anet if they didnt care about banning innocent accounts.

> > >

> >

> > Oh no, the world is not perfect! Who knew right? Anyway, I DO believe Anet devs have a brain so those false bans WILL be lifted.

>

> I hope so too. I don't understand your sarcasm though, did I offend you in any way?

>

> My question is, how are they going to lift bans if they don't accept appeals?

 

It's not sarcasm. I did not meant to offend you in any way. Sorry if I did. Like I said somewhere else, I believe they will actually investigate those. If they told that from the star, everyone would become false accused.

[FOX.3582]

> @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > > > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > > > > You'll find information about a series of account suspensions in [this thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/36050/game-accounts-suspended-april-12-2018 "this thread").

> > > >

> > > > As someone who isn't suspended and doesn't use cheats or other stuff I will say this and I've said it before:

> > > > Your company has the worst failure of a business management I've ever encountered in my life! You will see that if you take a look on how you manage your micro-transactions, the wishes of your player-base and now this. For years and years you have this shady, blear and unclear statement about third-party software. Players made dozens of topics on this subject and never have they had a clear and distinct answer. And all of a sudden, you suspend your customers?! You have lead them into this and you don't even recognize your own share in it. I know people used third party software into their own advantage, we all understand that. But if you guys were clear about it at the very beginning, you would never have to suspend over 1500 accounts. What a pitiful mess you guys create...

> > >

> > > Oh I'm sorry. Were these not CLEAR enough for you?

> > >

> > > Chris Cleary : "If someone wanted to put in the time to actually build real bossmods, that might be something that we could approve if they wanted to work with me."

> > > Chris Cleary: "I've gone ahead and taken a look at this (source code and traffic). In its current iteration, I see nothing here that violates the proper API usage policy. However users should be careful with the usage of the Web Browser, as both the storage of cache and cookie information is not secure and persists through sessions. Unlike most standard browsers, Awesomium (the browser that is being used), does not have more than basic protection against browser based web vulnerabilities. As with any 3rd party program, use at your own risk. ArenaNet cannot sign off usage of 3rd party programs, as projects often evolve beyond their current implementation and we cannot audit every iteration for fair usage. All that being said, some solid work here. Tip: You might want to consider throtttling down your match_details API call (1/5s would be sufficient rather than 2/1s)"

> > > Chris Cleary: " We have no problems with players using a 3rd party tool whose scope is only to collect and visualize combat data gathered directly from the game client. Anything beyond that scope is still considered a violation of the User Agreement."

> > > Chris Cleary: "I haven't seen anything that TACO is doing that would violate the rules set forward with the fair usage of the mumble API"

> > > Chris Cleary: "We will give our community plenty of time to make this adjustment before considering any action directly against tools or players that use them. Edit: Tool creators, if you are unsure if a feature you have created or want to create is in violation of these guidelines, you can contact me directly."

> > > Chris Cleary: "About 2-3 months ago I asked /u/deltaconnected to take down his previously created Build Templates addon to ArcDPS. At the time it was in violation of our rules to distribute it and it had key issues with it when it came to functionality and interaction with the game client. This release is the result of a multi-month coordination to get his Build Templates addon into a place where I can green-light it for release. Unlike DPS meters, Build Templates is a much more passive user interface addon and thus it could be individually allowed to release outside of the DPS meter Terms of Service rules restriction. If future developers are interested in working with me to create addons, please reach out to me and we can chat. I'm green-lighting this due to the developer's trustworthiness after months of interaction and willingness to add key restrictions and functionality changes to accommodate my push to keep addons away from becoming a "must have to win" situation (WvW restrictions were not outlined in his post, but they are there along with others). In their current state, /u/DeltaConnected 's Build templates are green-lit and safe to use by users (in terms of violating the Terms of Service). I've asked him to run any functionality changes by me before releasing, so hopefully we don't need to worry about things changing in the future in terms of "safe to use". This is officially unsupported, and ArenaNet will not be able to offer any support for this addon or issues that occur due to use of this addon."

> > >

> > > I guess the HUNDREDS of Reddit and forum posts from Mr. Cleary weren't CLEAR enough (the irony of his last name and this subject is not lost on me either, lol).

> > >

> > > Excuses, excuses. This thread is full of them. You. Got. What. You. Deserved.

> >

> > Again, I am not banned. And if you find those statements clear and distinct, you are quite dense. But since you already had trouble to read my first sentence, I think it's a giant waste of time to point out and explain the enormous amount of contradictions that are written within those posts. All I see is a disgruntled player who doesn't like people to use stuff like dps-meters just because it has affected his/her ability to leech from pro/veteran people who needed to carry you through content because they DID use stuff to improve their skill. You should work at Arenanet, they need people like you there. =)

>

> Allow me to reply, in kind, good sir!

>

> 1. I'm sorry you lack fundamental understanding of basic computer science, and thus fail to grasp what Mr. Cleary was articulating. To anyone with more than layman's understanding or a passing fancy of programming, what he said is QUITE clear. You lack of understanding gives me pause to grant you ANY credibility, or to post a meaningful reply to your ad hominem attack on me, but then again... here we are, aren't we?

> 2. Again, with the ad hominem attacks.... Let's address them, just for the sake of the fact that, at this point, it's all you've got to defend yourself from QUOTES from the developer of the game in question and from someone with a fair amount of knowledge of computer science, shall we?

> * You suggest I'm against DPS meters - I never stated this. Quite the contrary... I am fully in favor of them, provided they comply with the rules set forth by ANET. Mr. Cleary has offered to work with a developer, should they be in a gray area (and those gray areas are actually few and far between when you get down the heart of it)

> * You suggest that I am a leech, without having ever encountered me in the game, knowing nothing about my account, etc. This is rude, first off, and more importantly, is completely uncessary to the discussion at hand.

> * Moreover, you somehow suggest that I am leeching off pro/veteran players to facilitate my experience in playing Guild Wars 2. Well, considering I covered part of this in my latter retort with regards to you accusation of me being a "leech", let me just add that you are quite incorrect. That's all I am going to give you with regards to obliging such a baseless, childish statement with a reply. Knock it off.

> * If by "use stuff to improve their skill" you mean "Hack the game utilizing game breaking functionality like teleportion, speed increases and no-clip," then I would fault you on the former bit of logic there that said people "carr[ied] [me]" through the game, as I would NEVER allow a player utilizing these tools to do ANYTHING for me, as it is reprehensible behavior that is deserving of nothing short of permanent account termination, let alone the paultry 6 month ban ANET has issued to these deviants.

> * As for your comment about working for ArenaNet - while that's a flattering suggesting, I'm quite happy in my current career; however, I do appreciate the sentiment. :+1:

 

Well, propsfor explaining all that stuff (that's already more then clear to me), but let's think back to my first post then, and I'll quote something you've just said here: "To anyone with more than layman's understanding or a passing fancy of programming, what he (Mr. Cleary) said is QUITE clear".

So, after saying it yourself, you really think that Arenanet couldn't have done anything to prevent this ban-storm? We are not talking about programming and coding here, we are talking about a company who develops games for people who would like to play games, simple as that. The clientele doesn't consists of players who are also happen to be professional application developers. So with this in mind, do you really think it's fair the way Arenanet is acting now. I don't know about you, but let me give you an example of how this third-party software is being shared.

 

X: Hey, you've heard about the new DPS meter called "ARCDPS",you should download it, it's very good.

Y: Well, I don't know, my account is very precious to me so I don't think we should download it, even when it will help me improve my skill.

X: No man, it's no problem, let me send you a recent link about Arenanet's policy on this.

*Sends link from forum with a statement about the ARCDPS version 2.0 (including complicated, vague crapz)*

Y: So, they're alright with it then, nice!

*Downloads ARCDPS 5.0*

 

I understand what you're saying, but if you are working with people, you should know something about human behavior and demeanor. All I am saying is, that you should be clear and simple about stuff like this, especially when you want to take actions again your OWN clientele! So again and in other words: If Arenanet forestalled all the third-party software from the beginning, you wouldn't have to ban 1500 people. People took the third-party software crapz way too far, and Arenanet has a fair share in it themselves!

[Alga.6498]

This is why I am never using any kind of 3rd party program because of this. You can play the game without those softwares too, you know.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > > > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Tomas.6092" said:

> > > > > > > > Anet could have gave an explanation in tickets individually, why exactly person got banned, for what kind of software or w/e they were using. I mean it's not hard, they found and banned 1.6k players, might as give them explanation why that happened. Since many people are saying that they were not fairly banned and haven't done anything wrong.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So they can alter the software to better avoid the bans next time after their 6 months are up? A decent programmer can come up with a lot of great code in 6 months. TRUST AND BELIEVE girlfriend! You are out of your mind if you think ANET should willing divulge information used to track and action these accounts.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Why should anyone trust and believe you and not someone saying that they got wrongfully banned?

> > > > >

> > > > > You're basically making the argument "Should someone trust facts or an opinion?" If I say the sky is blue, and give you the facts to why it's blue, and then someone says "The sky is actually green," which argument is the valid one?

> > > > >

> > > > > The facts are quite simple here my friend:

> > > > > 1. Memory writes or modifications are IMPLICITLY against the User Agreement/ToS

> > > > > 2. Anything that attempts to read from protected memory is against the ToS, and has been stated numerous times by devs, up to and including Chris Cleary.

> > > > > 3. Any addon or modification that directly reverse engineers the client in ANY way is against the ToS/UA

> > > > > 4. Any addon or mod that gathers data, actively, that is NOT readily available to the player is against the ToS. This is why TacO is permitted, because it does not ACTIVELY gather data, but rather, utilizes static data in an overlay. This is "dumb tech" as far as programming prowess is concerned.

> > > > > 5. Any addon or mod that removes input from a human player for more than 1 keystroke per key is expressly DISALLOWED - this excludes musical macros for playing in game musical instruments.

> > > > >

> > > > > You're aware that these bans were the result of ANET looking for active memory writing or modification and/or protected memory reading. In fact, given the extraordinarily low number of bans versus use-case of mods or addons used throughout the community, I would assume (and this is an OPINION based on facts available) that these bans are based SOLELY on memory modification and/or writes, not even on reads.

> > > > >

> > > > > So, I'm sorry you lack the educational background/have a layman's understanding of the basics of programming/computer science, but this is pretty cut and dry. The people claiming to have only been using ArcDPS or TacO and having been banned are outright LYING about the situation. ANET knows it, anyone with more than a passing interest in programming or CS knows it. You cannot sit here, with a layman's understanding of the situation, and give them any shred of credibility.

> > > > >

> > > > > So, you shouldn't trust any one particular person or another on this subject. You should trust objective FACT; however, this is something you are clearly unwilling or lacking the understanding, at the moment, to do.

> > > >

> > > > I am arguing with you, because you act like authority. You are not, you are a regular player.

> > > >

> > > > Player X says: I dont deserve a ban. Anet made a mistake.

> > > >

> > > > Your response: Anet didn't do any mistake, you are guilty.

> > > >

> > > > You have no base to post judgments about other players here. Players should appeal through CS if they feel Anet made a mistake. You have no way to see anet's internal reports to decide one way or another who is or who is not wrongfully banned. My only gripe is against Gaile's "no appeals" message.

> > >

> > > I am a regular player who interacts with code on a daily basis, and has a fundamental understanding of what ANET has actioned these accounts for. It's not rocket science to figure out how they found the accounts in question or what they were up to. In fact, it's computer science!

> > >

> > > Do you realistically believe that ANET just through together some rough heurstics to find "suspicious" addons, and somehow, some way, the code for just a few people's addons worked differently from everyone else's? Oh please. Code is code is code. It works the same way, at this level of sophistication... An addon that has had a new fork created is a an entirely different story... if a player chooses to use a non "official" fork of an addon, that is their CHOICE, and they will be actioned if that choice was a poor one.

> > >

> > > Ignorance is not an excuse. Period.

> > >

> > > So, again... I am sorry you aren't seeing what has actually occurred here. It's extraordinarily obvious. These accounts were actioned due to a very reliable detection method for malicious code that was either reading protected memory, writing to active memory or writing to reserved memory space and using injection at some stage. It's extremely simple to interpret what ANET did, and how they did it, with a simple understanding of former posts from Mr. Cleary on the matter and the wording of their ToS/UA.

> > >

> > > These players are 100% guilty. That's the end of this tale.

> >

> > Anet has a history of false positive reports and wrongfully handed bans. Yes, I believe they could make mistakes here. Every human does mistakes.

>

> The "false positives" you are suggesting are not applicable here. This is an ENTIRELY different situation. The code is either directing the mod or addon to WRITE to memory, in some form, or is reading from PROTECTED memory through a workaround. Either way, it's actually quite obvious if you're looking for it.

>

> You can't get a false positive on something like this. And suggesting ANET reveal exactly what they were looking for, how they found it, what it was, etc.... that's just asking for the creators of these forks to create workarounds to make detecting them even more difficult.

>

> Please, stop throwing out the term "false positive" into the discussion wherein it is COMPLETELY INAPPLICABLE. This is not the case of a human being reviewing or following a player around... this is the case of "Does software do X or Y" If yes, flag account for ban. If no, move along. It's cut and dry.

 

We don't know how the investigation was handled therefore we have no way to judge if false positives are possible or not. In terms of customer relations it is expected for Anet to investigate appeals and provide (via CS) information justifying suspensions. It doesn't need to be technical details, however every customer deserves explanation because real money is involved here.

[Yseron.8613]

I can only be a witness in favor of Arenanet by saying that I've not been suspended and hence, their process seems to work.

If I was them, I would certainly be interested in the small brains who attempted to get me to think about using third party programs instead of posting suggestions.

Because unlike the smooth talking suspended accounts who smiled at the face of Sherif Jackson, I got a memory.

[Orpheal.8263]

after seeing what taco does exactly all ,I must question really myself, whats so difficult on this program to implement its features directly into the game a part of a QoL patch with the goal to improve the menus and UI options we can use to let us show up those things that we can see with tao also too right via using the mechanics of the game..

 

The stuff that taco does is absolutely no rocket science and should be easily something, that Naet should be able to integrate in the game in an official way..so that people have no reason anymore to use this silly third party program for these features ...

[kiranslee.4829]

> @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > @"SidewayS.3789" said:

> > Does doing 1 single macro.created with the software from my gaming mouse (Razer) for a dodge-jump in SAB can give you a ban for 6 months? Well in my case, it is.

>

> 1 key stroke, 1 action.

> Dodge jump, is 2 actions in very close succession.

 

I would bet 99% of raid community are using macros for specific rotations rather than actual clicks. You can find tons of vids for perfect dps out there. With that said, as for dodge jump is concerned u can perfectly execute it by pressing 2 buttons on your cheepass mouse at once. That is per say 2 actions at one click. I personally think that even if you use ur special keys on mouse to make dodge jump its not something that would get you ban. If that would be true just imagine how many players with razer/logitech software would be banned.

On other side, anet should disclose this clearly .

Hell , ppl play tons of money to get those super macro keyboards , would anet go so far to forbid them and with that go against those companies ?

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Orpheal.8263" said:

> after seeing what taco does exactly all ,I must question really myself, whats so difficult on this program to implement its features directly into the game a part of a QoL patch with the goal to improve the menus and UI options we can use to let us show up those things that we can see with tao also too right via using the mechanics of the game..

>

> The stuff that taco does is absolutely no rocket science and should be easily something, that Naet should be able to integrate in the game in an official way..so that people have no reason anymore to use this silly third party program for these features ...

 

Same can be said about build templates. It's not about possibility of making such features in-game, it's about if anet wants to make them.

[Sojar.1495]

> @"FOX.3582" said:

> > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > > > > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > > > > > You'll find information about a series of account suspensions in [this thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/36050/game-accounts-suspended-april-12-2018 "this thread").

> > > > >

> > > > > As someone who isn't suspended and doesn't use cheats or other stuff I will say this and I've said it before:

> > > > > Your company has the worst failure of a business management I've ever encountered in my life! You will see that if you take a look on how you manage your micro-transactions, the wishes of your player-base and now this. For years and years you have this shady, blear and unclear statement about third-party software. Players made dozens of topics on this subject and never have they had a clear and distinct answer. And all of a sudden, you suspend your customers?! You have lead them into this and you don't even recognize your own share in it. I know people used third party software into their own advantage, we all understand that. But if you guys were clear about it at the very beginning, you would never have to suspend over 1500 accounts. What a pitiful mess you guys create...

> > > >

> > > > Oh I'm sorry. Were these not CLEAR enough for you?

> > > >

> > > > Chris Cleary : "If someone wanted to put in the time to actually build real bossmods, that might be something that we could approve if they wanted to work with me."

> > > > Chris Cleary: "I've gone ahead and taken a look at this (source code and traffic). In its current iteration, I see nothing here that violates the proper API usage policy. However users should be careful with the usage of the Web Browser, as both the storage of cache and cookie information is not secure and persists through sessions. Unlike most standard browsers, Awesomium (the browser that is being used), does not have more than basic protection against browser based web vulnerabilities. As with any 3rd party program, use at your own risk. ArenaNet cannot sign off usage of 3rd party programs, as projects often evolve beyond their current implementation and we cannot audit every iteration for fair usage. All that being said, some solid work here. Tip: You might want to consider throtttling down your match_details API call (1/5s would be sufficient rather than 2/1s)"

> > > > Chris Cleary: " We have no problems with players using a 3rd party tool whose scope is only to collect and visualize combat data gathered directly from the game client. Anything beyond that scope is still considered a violation of the User Agreement."

> > > > Chris Cleary: "I haven't seen anything that TACO is doing that would violate the rules set forward with the fair usage of the mumble API"

> > > > Chris Cleary: "We will give our community plenty of time to make this adjustment before considering any action directly against tools or players that use them. Edit: Tool creators, if you are unsure if a feature you have created or want to create is in violation of these guidelines, you can contact me directly."

> > > > Chris Cleary: "About 2-3 months ago I asked /u/deltaconnected to take down his previously created Build Templates addon to ArcDPS. At the time it was in violation of our rules to distribute it and it had key issues with it when it came to functionality and interaction with the game client. This release is the result of a multi-month coordination to get his Build Templates addon into a place where I can green-light it for release. Unlike DPS meters, Build Templates is a much more passive user interface addon and thus it could be individually allowed to release outside of the DPS meter Terms of Service rules restriction. If future developers are interested in working with me to create addons, please reach out to me and we can chat. I'm green-lighting this due to the developer's trustworthiness after months of interaction and willingness to add key restrictions and functionality changes to accommodate my push to keep addons away from becoming a "must have to win" situation (WvW restrictions were not outlined in his post, but they are there along with others). In their current state, /u/DeltaConnected 's Build templates are green-lit and safe to use by users (in terms of violating the Terms of Service). I've asked him to run any functionality changes by me before releasing, so hopefully we don't need to worry about things changing in the future in terms of "safe to use". This is officially unsupported, and ArenaNet will not be able to offer any support for this addon or issues that occur due to use of this addon."

> > > >

> > > > I guess the HUNDREDS of Reddit and forum posts from Mr. Cleary weren't CLEAR enough (the irony of his last name and this subject is not lost on me either, lol).

> > > >

> > > > Excuses, excuses. This thread is full of them. You. Got. What. You. Deserved.

> > >

> > > Again, I am not banned. And if you find those statements clear and distinct, you are quite dense. But since you already had trouble to read my first sentence, I think it's a giant waste of time to point out and explain the enormous amount of contradictions that are written within those posts. All I see is a disgruntled player who doesn't like people to use stuff like dps-meters just because it has affected his/her ability to leech from pro/veteran people who needed to carry you through content because they DID use stuff to improve their skill. You should work at Arenanet, they need people like you there. =)

> >

> > Allow me to reply, in kind, good sir!

> >

> > 1. I'm sorry you lack fundamental understanding of basic computer science, and thus fail to grasp what Mr. Cleary was articulating. To anyone with more than layman's understanding or a passing fancy of programming, what he said is QUITE clear. You lack of understanding gives me pause to grant you ANY credibility, or to post a meaningful reply to your ad hominem attack on me, but then again... here we are, aren't we?

> > 2. Again, with the ad hominem attacks.... Let's address them, just for the sake of the fact that, at this point, it's all you've got to defend yourself from QUOTES from the developer of the game in question and from someone with a fair amount of knowledge of computer science, shall we?

> > * You suggest I'm against DPS meters - I never stated this. Quite the contrary... I am fully in favor of them, provided they comply with the rules set forth by ANET. Mr. Cleary has offered to work with a developer, should they be in a gray area (and those gray areas are actually few and far between when you get down the heart of it)

> > * You suggest that I am a leech, without having ever encountered me in the game, knowing nothing about my account, etc. This is rude, first off, and more importantly, is completely uncessary to the discussion at hand.

> > * Moreover, you somehow suggest that I am leeching off pro/veteran players to facilitate my experience in playing Guild Wars 2. Well, considering I covered part of this in my latter retort with regards to you accusation of me being a "leech", let me just add that you are quite incorrect. That's all I am going to give you with regards to obliging such a baseless, childish statement with a reply. Knock it off.

> > * If by "use stuff to improve their skill" you mean "Hack the game utilizing game breaking functionality like teleportion, speed increases and no-clip," then I would fault you on the former bit of logic there that said people "carr[ied] [me]" through the game, as I would NEVER allow a player utilizing these tools to do ANYTHING for me, as it is reprehensible behavior that is deserving of nothing short of permanent account termination, let alone the paultry 6 month ban ANET has issued to these deviants.

> > * As for your comment about working for ArenaNet - while that's a flattering suggesting, I'm quite happy in my current career; however, I do appreciate the sentiment. :+1:

>

> Well, propsfor explaining all that stuff (that's already more then clear to me), but let's think back to my first post then, and I'll quote something you've just said here: "To anyone with more than layman's understanding or a passing fancy of programming, what he (Mr. Cleary) said is QUITE clear".

> So, after saying it yourself, you really think that Arenanet couldn't have done anything to prevent this ban-storm? We are not talking about programming and coding here, we are talking about a company who develops games for people who would like to play games, simple as that. The clientele doesn't consists of players who are also happen to be professional application developers. So with this in mind, do you really think it's fair the way Arenanet is acting now. I don't know about you, but let me give you an example of how this third-party software is being shared.

>

> X: Hey, you've heard about the new DPS meter called "ARCDPS",you should download it, it's very good.

> Y: Well, I don't know, my account is very precious to me so I don't think we should download it, even when it will help me improve my skill.

> X: No man, it's no problem, let me send you a recent link about Arenanet's policy on this.

> *Sends link from forum with a statement about the ARCDPS version 2.0 (including complicated, vague crapz)*

> Y: So, they're alright with it then, nice!

> *Downloads ARCDPS 5.0*

>

> I understand what you're saying, but if you are working with people, you should know something about human behavior and demeanor. All I am saying is, that you should be clear and simple about stuff like this, especially when you want to take actions again your OWN clientele! So again and in other words: If Arenanet forestalled all the third-party software from the beginning, you wouldn't have to ban 1500 people. People took the third-party software crapz way too far, and Arenanet has a fair share in it themselves!

 

I'm sorry. Is human stupidity now an excuse to cheat? Ha! Excuse me... I'll be right back. I am going to go hit myself over the head with a frying pan until I've lost a few million brain cells and then go rob a bank. CLEARLY, this is a valid excuse.

 

Also, no one was banned for using ArcDPS. ArcDPS uses temporal data... full stop. It doesn't write to active memory, it doesn't write to standby memory/passive memory, and it doesn't read protected memory. So, remind me again, how would ArcDPS get you banned? I'd love to hear the explanation for how it would, as I have provided you a clear and concise reason it would NOT.

 

And this laughable joke that TacO is getting people banned is... absolutely HYSTERICAL.

 

This entire "But I only used XYZ program/addon/mod" is really chuckle worthy. I mean, cmon... Let's get real here.

 

ANET has zero fault in this. They cannot keep track of people making forks of approved 3rd party applications. They covered themselves by stating that they can't guarnatee operational stability of these apps, nor the integrity of these."

 

That's why, if people choose to use 3rd party addons/apps/mods, they need to be aware of what they're doing, how to do it; otherwise, don't do it. Ignorance is not an excuse.

[FOX.3582]

> @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > > > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > > > > > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > > > > > > You'll find information about a series of account suspensions in [this thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/36050/game-accounts-suspended-april-12-2018 "this thread").

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As someone who isn't suspended and doesn't use cheats or other stuff I will say this and I've said it before:

> > > > > > Your company has the worst failure of a business management I've ever encountered in my life! You will see that if you take a look on how you manage your micro-transactions, the wishes of your player-base and now this. For years and years you have this shady, blear and unclear statement about third-party software. Players made dozens of topics on this subject and never have they had a clear and distinct answer. And all of a sudden, you suspend your customers?! You have lead them into this and you don't even recognize your own share in it. I know people used third party software into their own advantage, we all understand that. But if you guys were clear about it at the very beginning, you would never have to suspend over 1500 accounts. What a pitiful mess you guys create...

> > > > >

> > > > > Oh I'm sorry. Were these not CLEAR enough for you?

> > > > >

> > > > > Chris Cleary : "If someone wanted to put in the time to actually build real bossmods, that might be something that we could approve if they wanted to work with me."

> > > > > Chris Cleary: "I've gone ahead and taken a look at this (source code and traffic). In its current iteration, I see nothing here that violates the proper API usage policy. However users should be careful with the usage of the Web Browser, as both the storage of cache and cookie information is not secure and persists through sessions. Unlike most standard browsers, Awesomium (the browser that is being used), does not have more than basic protection against browser based web vulnerabilities. As with any 3rd party program, use at your own risk. ArenaNet cannot sign off usage of 3rd party programs, as projects often evolve beyond their current implementation and we cannot audit every iteration for fair usage. All that being said, some solid work here. Tip: You might want to consider throtttling down your match_details API call (1/5s would be sufficient rather than 2/1s)"

> > > > > Chris Cleary: " We have no problems with players using a 3rd party tool whose scope is only to collect and visualize combat data gathered directly from the game client. Anything beyond that scope is still considered a violation of the User Agreement."

> > > > > Chris Cleary: "I haven't seen anything that TACO is doing that would violate the rules set forward with the fair usage of the mumble API"

> > > > > Chris Cleary: "We will give our community plenty of time to make this adjustment before considering any action directly against tools or players that use them. Edit: Tool creators, if you are unsure if a feature you have created or want to create is in violation of these guidelines, you can contact me directly."

> > > > > Chris Cleary: "About 2-3 months ago I asked /u/deltaconnected to take down his previously created Build Templates addon to ArcDPS. At the time it was in violation of our rules to distribute it and it had key issues with it when it came to functionality and interaction with the game client. This release is the result of a multi-month coordination to get his Build Templates addon into a place where I can green-light it for release. Unlike DPS meters, Build Templates is a much more passive user interface addon and thus it could be individually allowed to release outside of the DPS meter Terms of Service rules restriction. If future developers are interested in working with me to create addons, please reach out to me and we can chat. I'm green-lighting this due to the developer's trustworthiness after months of interaction and willingness to add key restrictions and functionality changes to accommodate my push to keep addons away from becoming a "must have to win" situation (WvW restrictions were not outlined in his post, but they are there along with others). In their current state, /u/DeltaConnected 's Build templates are green-lit and safe to use by users (in terms of violating the Terms of Service). I've asked him to run any functionality changes by me before releasing, so hopefully we don't need to worry about things changing in the future in terms of "safe to use". This is officially unsupported, and ArenaNet will not be able to offer any support for this addon or issues that occur due to use of this addon."

> > > > >

> > > > > I guess the HUNDREDS of Reddit and forum posts from Mr. Cleary weren't CLEAR enough (the irony of his last name and this subject is not lost on me either, lol).

> > > > >

> > > > > Excuses, excuses. This thread is full of them. You. Got. What. You. Deserved.

> > > >

> > > > Again, I am not banned. And if you find those statements clear and distinct, you are quite dense. But since you already had trouble to read my first sentence, I think it's a giant waste of time to point out and explain the enormous amount of contradictions that are written within those posts. All I see is a disgruntled player who doesn't like people to use stuff like dps-meters just because it has affected his/her ability to leech from pro/veteran people who needed to carry you through content because they DID use stuff to improve their skill. You should work at Arenanet, they need people like you there. =)

> > >

> > > Allow me to reply, in kind, good sir!

> > >

> > > 1. I'm sorry you lack fundamental understanding of basic computer science, and thus fail to grasp what Mr. Cleary was articulating. To anyone with more than layman's understanding or a passing fancy of programming, what he said is QUITE clear. You lack of understanding gives me pause to grant you ANY credibility, or to post a meaningful reply to your ad hominem attack on me, but then again... here we are, aren't we?

> > > 2. Again, with the ad hominem attacks.... Let's address them, just for the sake of the fact that, at this point, it's all you've got to defend yourself from QUOTES from the developer of the game in question and from someone with a fair amount of knowledge of computer science, shall we?

> > > * You suggest I'm against DPS meters - I never stated this. Quite the contrary... I am fully in favor of them, provided they comply with the rules set forth by ANET. Mr. Cleary has offered to work with a developer, should they be in a gray area (and those gray areas are actually few and far between when you get down the heart of it)

> > > * You suggest that I am a leech, without having ever encountered me in the game, knowing nothing about my account, etc. This is rude, first off, and more importantly, is completely uncessary to the discussion at hand.

> > > * Moreover, you somehow suggest that I am leeching off pro/veteran players to facilitate my experience in playing Guild Wars 2. Well, considering I covered part of this in my latter retort with regards to you accusation of me being a "leech", let me just add that you are quite incorrect. That's all I am going to give you with regards to obliging such a baseless, childish statement with a reply. Knock it off.

> > > * If by "use stuff to improve their skill" you mean "Hack the game utilizing game breaking functionality like teleportion, speed increases and no-clip," then I would fault you on the former bit of logic there that said people "carr[ied] [me]" through the game, as I would NEVER allow a player utilizing these tools to do ANYTHING for me, as it is reprehensible behavior that is deserving of nothing short of permanent account termination, let alone the paultry 6 month ban ANET has issued to these deviants.

> > > * As for your comment about working for ArenaNet - while that's a flattering suggesting, I'm quite happy in my current career; however, I do appreciate the sentiment. :+1:

> >

> > Well, propsfor explaining all that stuff (that's already more then clear to me), but let's think back to my first post then, and I'll quote something you've just said here: "To anyone with more than layman's understanding or a passing fancy of programming, what he (Mr. Cleary) said is QUITE clear".

> > So, after saying it yourself, you really think that Arenanet couldn't have done anything to prevent this ban-storm? We are not talking about programming and coding here, we are talking about a company who develops games for people who would like to play games, simple as that. The clientele doesn't consists of players who are also happen to be professional application developers. So with this in mind, do you really think it's fair the way Arenanet is acting now. I don't know about you, but let me give you an example of how this third-party software is being shared.

> >

> > X: Hey, you've heard about the new DPS meter called "ARCDPS",you should download it, it's very good.

> > Y: Well, I don't know, my account is very precious to me so I don't think we should download it, even when it will help me improve my skill.

> > X: No man, it's no problem, let me send you a recent link about Arenanet's policy on this.

> > *Sends link from forum with a statement about the ARCDPS version 2.0 (including complicated, vague crapz)*

> > Y: So, they're alright with it then, nice!

> > *Downloads ARCDPS 5.0*

> >

> > I understand what you're saying, but if you are working with people, you should know something about human behavior and demeanor. All I am saying is, that you should be clear and simple about stuff like this, especially when you want to take actions again your OWN clientele! So again and in other words: If Arenanet forestalled all the third-party software from the beginning, you wouldn't have to ban 1500 people. People took the third-party software crapz way too far, and Arenanet has a fair share in it themselves!

>

> I'm sorry. Is human stupidity now an excuse to cheat? Ha! Excuse me... I'll be right back. I am going to go hit myself over the head with a frying pan until I've lost a few million brain cells and then go rob a bank. CLEARLY, this is a valid excuse.

>

> Also, no one was banned for using ArcDPS. ArcDPS uses temporal data... full stop. It doesn't write to active memory, it doesn't write to standby memory/passive memory, and it doesn't read protected memory. So, remind me again, how would ArcDPS get you banned? I'd love to hear the explanation for how it would, as I have provided you a clear and concise reason it would NOT.

>

> And this laughable joke that TacO is getting people banned is... absolutely HYSTERICAL.

>

> This entire "But I only used XYZ program/addon/mod" is really chuckle worthy. I mean, cmon... Let's get real here.

>

> ANET has zero fault in this. They cannot keep track of people making forks of approved 3rd party applications. They covered themselves by stating that they can't guarnatee operational stability of these apps, nor the integrity of these."

>

> That's why, if people choose to use 3rd party addons/apps/mods, they need to be aware of what they're doing, how to do it; otherwise, don't do it. Ignorance is not an excuse.

 

And that's EXACTLY why they should've been clear about it! Because YES, people are stupid, and there is nothing we can do about it. And people taking the whole hand when given just one finger isn't something new these days isn't it? Again, I totally understand your pov, but In my humble opinion, this could've been prevented easily. =)

[Sojar.1495]

> @"FOX.3582" said:

> > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > > > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > > > > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > > > > > > > You'll find information about a series of account suspensions in [this thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/36050/game-accounts-suspended-april-12-2018 "this thread").

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > As someone who isn't suspended and doesn't use cheats or other stuff I will say this and I've said it before:

> > > > > > > Your company has the worst failure of a business management I've ever encountered in my life! You will see that if you take a look on how you manage your micro-transactions, the wishes of your player-base and now this. For years and years you have this shady, blear and unclear statement about third-party software. Players made dozens of topics on this subject and never have they had a clear and distinct answer. And all of a sudden, you suspend your customers?! You have lead them into this and you don't even recognize your own share in it. I know people used third party software into their own advantage, we all understand that. But if you guys were clear about it at the very beginning, you would never have to suspend over 1500 accounts. What a pitiful mess you guys create...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Oh I'm sorry. Were these not CLEAR enough for you?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Chris Cleary : "If someone wanted to put in the time to actually build real bossmods, that might be something that we could approve if they wanted to work with me."

> > > > > > Chris Cleary: "I've gone ahead and taken a look at this (source code and traffic). In its current iteration, I see nothing here that violates the proper API usage policy. However users should be careful with the usage of the Web Browser, as both the storage of cache and cookie information is not secure and persists through sessions. Unlike most standard browsers, Awesomium (the browser that is being used), does not have more than basic protection against browser based web vulnerabilities. As with any 3rd party program, use at your own risk. ArenaNet cannot sign off usage of 3rd party programs, as projects often evolve beyond their current implementation and we cannot audit every iteration for fair usage. All that being said, some solid work here. Tip: You might want to consider throtttling down your match_details API call (1/5s would be sufficient rather than 2/1s)"

> > > > > > Chris Cleary: " We have no problems with players using a 3rd party tool whose scope is only to collect and visualize combat data gathered directly from the game client. Anything beyond that scope is still considered a violation of the User Agreement."

> > > > > > Chris Cleary: "I haven't seen anything that TACO is doing that would violate the rules set forward with the fair usage of the mumble API"

> > > > > > Chris Cleary: "We will give our community plenty of time to make this adjustment before considering any action directly against tools or players that use them. Edit: Tool creators, if you are unsure if a feature you have created or want to create is in violation of these guidelines, you can contact me directly."

> > > > > > Chris Cleary: "About 2-3 months ago I asked /u/deltaconnected to take down his previously created Build Templates addon to ArcDPS. At the time it was in violation of our rules to distribute it and it had key issues with it when it came to functionality and interaction with the game client. This release is the result of a multi-month coordination to get his Build Templates addon into a place where I can green-light it for release. Unlike DPS meters, Build Templates is a much more passive user interface addon and thus it could be individually allowed to release outside of the DPS meter Terms of Service rules restriction. If future developers are interested in working with me to create addons, please reach out to me and we can chat. I'm green-lighting this due to the developer's trustworthiness after months of interaction and willingness to add key restrictions and functionality changes to accommodate my push to keep addons away from becoming a "must have to win" situation (WvW restrictions were not outlined in his post, but they are there along with others). In their current state, /u/DeltaConnected 's Build templates are green-lit and safe to use by users (in terms of violating the Terms of Service). I've asked him to run any functionality changes by me before releasing, so hopefully we don't need to worry about things changing in the future in terms of "safe to use". This is officially unsupported, and ArenaNet will not be able to offer any support for this addon or issues that occur due to use of this addon."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I guess the HUNDREDS of Reddit and forum posts from Mr. Cleary weren't CLEAR enough (the irony of his last name and this subject is not lost on me either, lol).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Excuses, excuses. This thread is full of them. You. Got. What. You. Deserved.

> > > > >

> > > > > Again, I am not banned. And if you find those statements clear and distinct, you are quite dense. But since you already had trouble to read my first sentence, I think it's a giant waste of time to point out and explain the enormous amount of contradictions that are written within those posts. All I see is a disgruntled player who doesn't like people to use stuff like dps-meters just because it has affected his/her ability to leech from pro/veteran people who needed to carry you through content because they DID use stuff to improve their skill. You should work at Arenanet, they need people like you there. =)

> > > >

> > > > Allow me to reply, in kind, good sir!

> > > >

> > > > 1. I'm sorry you lack fundamental understanding of basic computer science, and thus fail to grasp what Mr. Cleary was articulating. To anyone with more than layman's understanding or a passing fancy of programming, what he said is QUITE clear. You lack of understanding gives me pause to grant you ANY credibility, or to post a meaningful reply to your ad hominem attack on me, but then again... here we are, aren't we?

> > > > 2. Again, with the ad hominem attacks.... Let's address them, just for the sake of the fact that, at this point, it's all you've got to defend yourself from QUOTES from the developer of the game in question and from someone with a fair amount of knowledge of computer science, shall we?

> > > > * You suggest I'm against DPS meters - I never stated this. Quite the contrary... I am fully in favor of them, provided they comply with the rules set forth by ANET. Mr. Cleary has offered to work with a developer, should they be in a gray area (and those gray areas are actually few and far between when you get down the heart of it)

> > > > * You suggest that I am a leech, without having ever encountered me in the game, knowing nothing about my account, etc. This is rude, first off, and more importantly, is completely uncessary to the discussion at hand.

> > > > * Moreover, you somehow suggest that I am leeching off pro/veteran players to facilitate my experience in playing Guild Wars 2. Well, considering I covered part of this in my latter retort with regards to you accusation of me being a "leech", let me just add that you are quite incorrect. That's all I am going to give you with regards to obliging such a baseless, childish statement with a reply. Knock it off.

> > > > * If by "use stuff to improve their skill" you mean "Hack the game utilizing game breaking functionality like teleportion, speed increases and no-clip," then I would fault you on the former bit of logic there that said people "carr[ied] [me]" through the game, as I would NEVER allow a player utilizing these tools to do ANYTHING for me, as it is reprehensible behavior that is deserving of nothing short of permanent account termination, let alone the paultry 6 month ban ANET has issued to these deviants.

> > > > * As for your comment about working for ArenaNet - while that's a flattering suggesting, I'm quite happy in my current career; however, I do appreciate the sentiment. :+1:

> > >

> > > Well, propsfor explaining all that stuff (that's already more then clear to me), but let's think back to my first post then, and I'll quote something you've just said here: "To anyone with more than layman's understanding or a passing fancy of programming, what he (Mr. Cleary) said is QUITE clear".

> > > So, after saying it yourself, you really think that Arenanet couldn't have done anything to prevent this ban-storm? We are not talking about programming and coding here, we are talking about a company who develops games for people who would like to play games, simple as that. The clientele doesn't consists of players who are also happen to be professional application developers. So with this in mind, do you really think it's fair the way Arenanet is acting now. I don't know about you, but let me give you an example of how this third-party software is being shared.

> > >

> > > X: Hey, you've heard about the new DPS meter called "ARCDPS",you should download it, it's very good.

> > > Y: Well, I don't know, my account is very precious to me so I don't think we should download it, even when it will help me improve my skill.

> > > X: No man, it's no problem, let me send you a recent link about Arenanet's policy on this.

> > > *Sends link from forum with a statement about the ARCDPS version 2.0 (including complicated, vague crapz)*

> > > Y: So, they're alright with it then, nice!

> > > *Downloads ARCDPS 5.0*

> > >

> > > I understand what you're saying, but if you are working with people, you should know something about human behavior and demeanor. All I am saying is, that you should be clear and simple about stuff like this, especially when you want to take actions again your OWN clientele! So again and in other words: If Arenanet forestalled all the third-party software from the beginning, you wouldn't have to ban 1500 people. People took the third-party software crapz way too far, and Arenanet has a fair share in it themselves!

> >

> > I'm sorry. Is human stupidity now an excuse to cheat? Ha! Excuse me... I'll be right back. I am going to go hit myself over the head with a frying pan until I've lost a few million brain cells and then go rob a bank. CLEARLY, this is a valid excuse.

> >

> > Also, no one was banned for using ArcDPS. ArcDPS uses temporal data... full stop. It doesn't write to active memory, it doesn't write to standby memory/passive memory, and it doesn't read protected memory. So, remind me again, how would ArcDPS get you banned? I'd love to hear the explanation for how it would, as I have provided you a clear and concise reason it would NOT.

> >

> > And this laughable joke that TacO is getting people banned is... absolutely HYSTERICAL.

> >

> > This entire "But I only used XYZ program/addon/mod" is really chuckle worthy. I mean, cmon... Let's get real here.

> >

> > ANET has zero fault in this. They cannot keep track of people making forks of approved 3rd party applications. They covered themselves by stating that they can't guarnatee operational stability of these apps, nor the integrity of these."

> >

> > That's why, if people choose to use 3rd party addons/apps/mods, they need to be aware of what they're doing, how to do it; otherwise, don't do it. Ignorance is not an excuse.

>

> And that's EXACTLY why they should've been clear about it! Because YES, people are stupid, and there is nothing we can do about it. And people taking the whole hand when given just one finger isn't something new these days isn't it? Again, I totally understand your pov, but In my humble opinion, this could've been prevented easily. =)

 

Pray tell... how?

[Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046]

I'm not getting gibbed by certain mesmers anymore :3

[Sojar.1495]

> @"Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046" said:

> I'm not getting gibbed by certain mesmers anymore :3

 

I'll come to PvP and remedy this situation for you. :+1:

[Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046]

> @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > @"Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046" said:

> > I'm not getting gibbed by certain mesmers anymore :3

>

> I'll come to PvP and remedy this situation for you. :+1:

 

no! nooooooooooooo!

[FOX.3582]

> @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > > > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > > > > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > > > > > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > > > > > > > > You'll find information about a series of account suspensions in [this thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/36050/game-accounts-suspended-april-12-2018 "this thread").

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > As someone who isn't suspended and doesn't use cheats or other stuff I will say this and I've said it before:

> > > > > > > > Your company has the worst failure of a business management I've ever encountered in my life! You will see that if you take a look on how you manage your micro-transactions, the wishes of your player-base and now this. For years and years you have this shady, blear and unclear statement about third-party software. Players made dozens of topics on this subject and never have they had a clear and distinct answer. And all of a sudden, you suspend your customers?! You have lead them into this and you don't even recognize your own share in it. I know people used third party software into their own advantage, we all understand that. But if you guys were clear about it at the very beginning, you would never have to suspend over 1500 accounts. What a pitiful mess you guys create...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Oh I'm sorry. Were these not CLEAR enough for you?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Chris Cleary : "If someone wanted to put in the time to actually build real bossmods, that might be something that we could approve if they wanted to work with me."

> > > > > > > Chris Cleary: "I've gone ahead and taken a look at this (source code and traffic). In its current iteration, I see nothing here that violates the proper API usage policy. However users should be careful with the usage of the Web Browser, as both the storage of cache and cookie information is not secure and persists through sessions. Unlike most standard browsers, Awesomium (the browser that is being used), does not have more than basic protection against browser based web vulnerabilities. As with any 3rd party program, use at your own risk. ArenaNet cannot sign off usage of 3rd party programs, as projects often evolve beyond their current implementation and we cannot audit every iteration for fair usage. All that being said, some solid work here. Tip: You might want to consider throtttling down your match_details API call (1/5s would be sufficient rather than 2/1s)"

> > > > > > > Chris Cleary: " We have no problems with players using a 3rd party tool whose scope is only to collect and visualize combat data gathered directly from the game client. Anything beyond that scope is still considered a violation of the User Agreement."

> > > > > > > Chris Cleary: "I haven't seen anything that TACO is doing that would violate the rules set forward with the fair usage of the mumble API"

> > > > > > > Chris Cleary: "We will give our community plenty of time to make this adjustment before considering any action directly against tools or players that use them. Edit: Tool creators, if you are unsure if a feature you have created or want to create is in violation of these guidelines, you can contact me directly."

> > > > > > > Chris Cleary: "About 2-3 months ago I asked /u/deltaconnected to take down his previously created Build Templates addon to ArcDPS. At the time it was in violation of our rules to distribute it and it had key issues with it when it came to functionality and interaction with the game client. This release is the result of a multi-month coordination to get his Build Templates addon into a place where I can green-light it for release. Unlike DPS meters, Build Templates is a much more passive user interface addon and thus it could be individually allowed to release outside of the DPS meter Terms of Service rules restriction. If future developers are interested in working with me to create addons, please reach out to me and we can chat. I'm green-lighting this due to the developer's trustworthiness after months of interaction and willingness to add key restrictions and functionality changes to accommodate my push to keep addons away from becoming a "must have to win" situation (WvW restrictions were not outlined in his post, but they are there along with others). In their current state, /u/DeltaConnected 's Build templates are green-lit and safe to use by users (in terms of violating the Terms of Service). I've asked him to run any functionality changes by me before releasing, so hopefully we don't need to worry about things changing in the future in terms of "safe to use". This is officially unsupported, and ArenaNet will not be able to offer any support for this addon or issues that occur due to use of this addon."

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I guess the HUNDREDS of Reddit and forum posts from Mr. Cleary weren't CLEAR enough (the irony of his last name and this subject is not lost on me either, lol).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Excuses, excuses. This thread is full of them. You. Got. What. You. Deserved.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Again, I am not banned. And if you find those statements clear and distinct, you are quite dense. But since you already had trouble to read my first sentence, I think it's a giant waste of time to point out and explain the enormous amount of contradictions that are written within those posts. All I see is a disgruntled player who doesn't like people to use stuff like dps-meters just because it has affected his/her ability to leech from pro/veteran people who needed to carry you through content because they DID use stuff to improve their skill. You should work at Arenanet, they need people like you there. =)

> > > > >

> > > > > Allow me to reply, in kind, good sir!

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. I'm sorry you lack fundamental understanding of basic computer science, and thus fail to grasp what Mr. Cleary was articulating. To anyone with more than layman's understanding or a passing fancy of programming, what he said is QUITE clear. You lack of understanding gives me pause to grant you ANY credibility, or to post a meaningful reply to your ad hominem attack on me, but then again... here we are, aren't we?

> > > > > 2. Again, with the ad hominem attacks.... Let's address them, just for the sake of the fact that, at this point, it's all you've got to defend yourself from QUOTES from the developer of the game in question and from someone with a fair amount of knowledge of computer science, shall we?

> > > > > * You suggest I'm against DPS meters - I never stated this. Quite the contrary... I am fully in favor of them, provided they comply with the rules set forth by ANET. Mr. Cleary has offered to work with a developer, should they be in a gray area (and those gray areas are actually few and far between when you get down the heart of it)

> > > > > * You suggest that I am a leech, without having ever encountered me in the game, knowing nothing about my account, etc. This is rude, first off, and more importantly, is completely uncessary to the discussion at hand.

> > > > > * Moreover, you somehow suggest that I am leeching off pro/veteran players to facilitate my experience in playing Guild Wars 2. Well, considering I covered part of this in my latter retort with regards to you accusation of me being a "leech", let me just add that you are quite incorrect. That's all I am going to give you with regards to obliging such a baseless, childish statement with a reply. Knock it off.

> > > > > * If by "use stuff to improve their skill" you mean "Hack the game utilizing game breaking functionality like teleportion, speed increases and no-clip," then I would fault you on the former bit of logic there that said people "carr[ied] [me]" through the game, as I would NEVER allow a player utilizing these tools to do ANYTHING for me, as it is reprehensible behavior that is deserving of nothing short of permanent account termination, let alone the paultry 6 month ban ANET has issued to these deviants.

> > > > > * As for your comment about working for ArenaNet - while that's a flattering suggesting, I'm quite happy in my current career; however, I do appreciate the sentiment. :+1:

> > > >

> > > > Well, propsfor explaining all that stuff (that's already more then clear to me), but let's think back to my first post then, and I'll quote something you've just said here: "To anyone with more than layman's understanding or a passing fancy of programming, what he (Mr. Cleary) said is QUITE clear".

> > > > So, after saying it yourself, you really think that Arenanet couldn't have done anything to prevent this ban-storm? We are not talking about programming and coding here, we are talking about a company who develops games for people who would like to play games, simple as that. The clientele doesn't consists of players who are also happen to be professional application developers. So with this in mind, do you really think it's fair the way Arenanet is acting now. I don't know about you, but let me give you an example of how this third-party software is being shared.

> > > >

> > > > X: Hey, you've heard about the new DPS meter called "ARCDPS",you should download it, it's very good.

> > > > Y: Well, I don't know, my account is very precious to me so I don't think we should download it, even when it will help me improve my skill.

> > > > X: No man, it's no problem, let me send you a recent link about Arenanet's policy on this.

> > > > *Sends link from forum with a statement about the ARCDPS version 2.0 (including complicated, vague crapz)*

> > > > Y: So, they're alright with it then, nice!

> > > > *Downloads ARCDPS 5.0*

> > > >

> > > > I understand what you're saying, but if you are working with people, you should know something about human behavior and demeanor. All I am saying is, that you should be clear and simple about stuff like this, especially when you want to take actions again your OWN clientele! So again and in other words: If Arenanet forestalled all the third-party software from the beginning, you wouldn't have to ban 1500 people. People took the third-party software crapz way too far, and Arenanet has a fair share in it themselves!

> > >

> > > I'm sorry. Is human stupidity now an excuse to cheat? Ha! Excuse me... I'll be right back. I am going to go hit myself over the head with a frying pan until I've lost a few million brain cells and then go rob a bank. CLEARLY, this is a valid excuse.

> > >

> > > Also, no one was banned for using ArcDPS. ArcDPS uses temporal data... full stop. It doesn't write to active memory, it doesn't write to standby memory/passive memory, and it doesn't read protected memory. So, remind me again, how would ArcDPS get you banned? I'd love to hear the explanation for how it would, as I have provided you a clear and concise reason it would NOT.

> > >

> > > And this laughable joke that TacO is getting people banned is... absolutely HYSTERICAL.

> > >

> > > This entire "But I only used XYZ program/addon/mod" is really chuckle worthy. I mean, cmon... Let's get real here.

> > >

> > > ANET has zero fault in this. They cannot keep track of people making forks of approved 3rd party applications. They covered themselves by stating that they can't guarnatee operational stability of these apps, nor the integrity of these."

> > >

> > > That's why, if people choose to use 3rd party addons/apps/mods, they need to be aware of what they're doing, how to do it; otherwise, don't do it. Ignorance is not an excuse.

> >

> > And that's EXACTLY why they should've been clear about it! Because YES, people are stupid, and there is nothing we can do about it. And people taking the whole hand when given just one finger isn't something new these days isn't it? Again, I totally understand your pov, but In my humble opinion, this could've been prevented easily. =)

>

> Pray tell... how?

 

By disallowing EVERY third-party program, instead of creating a situation in which the line between harmful and harmless is getting thinner and thinner. Specially with people around that just play games and have no knowledge about this staff. Only a really naive person would think that most people who download third-party software/tools are first going to read everything about it. Although, I guess Arenanet can be naive sometimes. :p

[Sojar.1495]

> @"FOX.3582" said:

> > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > > > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > > > > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"FOX.3582" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > > > > > > > > > You'll find information about a series of account suspensions in [this thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/36050/game-accounts-suspended-april-12-2018 "this thread").

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > As someone who isn't suspended and doesn't use cheats or other stuff I will say this and I've said it before:

> > > > > > > > > Your company has the worst failure of a business management I've ever encountered in my life! You will see that if you take a look on how you manage your micro-transactions, the wishes of your player-base and now this. For years and years you have this shady, blear and unclear statement about third-party software. Players made dozens of topics on this subject and never have they had a clear and distinct answer. And all of a sudden, you suspend your customers?! You have lead them into this and you don't even recognize your own share in it. I know people used third party software into their own advantage, we all understand that. But if you guys were clear about it at the very beginning, you would never have to suspend over 1500 accounts. What a pitiful mess you guys create...

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Oh I'm sorry. Were these not CLEAR enough for you?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Chris Cleary : "If someone wanted to put in the time to actually build real bossmods, that might be something that we could approve if they wanted to work with me."

> > > > > > > > Chris Cleary: "I've gone ahead and taken a look at this (source code and traffic). In its current iteration, I see nothing here that violates the proper API usage policy. However users should be careful with the usage of the Web Browser, as both the storage of cache and cookie information is not secure and persists through sessions. Unlike most standard browsers, Awesomium (the browser that is being used), does not have more than basic protection against browser based web vulnerabilities. As with any 3rd party program, use at your own risk. ArenaNet cannot sign off usage of 3rd party programs, as projects often evolve beyond their current implementation and we cannot audit every iteration for fair usage. All that being said, some solid work here. Tip: You might want to consider throtttling down your match_details API call (1/5s would be sufficient rather than 2/1s)"

> > > > > > > > Chris Cleary: " We have no problems with players using a 3rd party tool whose scope is only to collect and visualize combat data gathered directly from the game client. Anything beyond that scope is still considered a violation of the User Agreement."

> > > > > > > > Chris Cleary: "I haven't seen anything that TACO is doing that would violate the rules set forward with the fair usage of the mumble API"

> > > > > > > > Chris Cleary: "We will give our community plenty of time to make this adjustment before considering any action directly against tools or players that use them. Edit: Tool creators, if you are unsure if a feature you have created or want to create is in violation of these guidelines, you can contact me directly."

> > > > > > > > Chris Cleary: "About 2-3 months ago I asked /u/deltaconnected to take down his previously created Build Templates addon to ArcDPS. At the time it was in violation of our rules to distribute it and it had key issues with it when it came to functionality and interaction with the game client. This release is the result of a multi-month coordination to get his Build Templates addon into a place where I can green-light it for release. Unlike DPS meters, Build Templates is a much more passive user interface addon and thus it could be individually allowed to release outside of the DPS meter Terms of Service rules restriction. If future developers are interested in working with me to create addons, please reach out to me and we can chat. I'm green-lighting this due to the developer's trustworthiness after months of interaction and willingness to add key restrictions and functionality changes to accommodate my push to keep addons away from becoming a "must have to win" situation (WvW restrictions were not outlined in his post, but they are there along with others). In their current state, /u/DeltaConnected 's Build templates are green-lit and safe to use by users (in terms of violating the Terms of Service). I've asked him to run any functionality changes by me before releasing, so hopefully we don't need to worry about things changing in the future in terms of "safe to use". This is officially unsupported, and ArenaNet will not be able to offer any support for this addon or issues that occur due to use of this addon."

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I guess the HUNDREDS of Reddit and forum posts from Mr. Cleary weren't CLEAR enough (the irony of his last name and this subject is not lost on me either, lol).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Excuses, excuses. This thread is full of them. You. Got. What. You. Deserved.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Again, I am not banned. And if you find those statements clear and distinct, you are quite dense. But since you already had trouble to read my first sentence, I think it's a giant waste of time to point out and explain the enormous amount of contradictions that are written within those posts. All I see is a disgruntled player who doesn't like people to use stuff like dps-meters just because it has affected his/her ability to leech from pro/veteran people who needed to carry you through content because they DID use stuff to improve their skill. You should work at Arenanet, they need people like you there. =)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Allow me to reply, in kind, good sir!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1. I'm sorry you lack fundamental understanding of basic computer science, and thus fail to grasp what Mr. Cleary was articulating. To anyone with more than layman's understanding or a passing fancy of programming, what he said is QUITE clear. You lack of understanding gives me pause to grant you ANY credibility, or to post a meaningful reply to your ad hominem attack on me, but then again... here we are, aren't we?

> > > > > > 2. Again, with the ad hominem attacks.... Let's address them, just for the sake of the fact that, at this point, it's all you've got to defend yourself from QUOTES from the developer of the game in question and from someone with a fair amount of knowledge of computer science, shall we?

> > > > > > * You suggest I'm against DPS meters - I never stated this. Quite the contrary... I am fully in favor of them, provided they comply with the rules set forth by ANET. Mr. Cleary has offered to work with a developer, should they be in a gray area (and those gray areas are actually few and far between when you get down the heart of it)

> > > > > > * You suggest that I am a leech, without having ever encountered me in the game, knowing nothing about my account, etc. This is rude, first off, and more importantly, is completely uncessary to the discussion at hand.

> > > > > > * Moreover, you somehow suggest that I am leeching off pro/veteran players to facilitate my experience in playing Guild Wars 2. Well, considering I covered part of this in my latter retort with regards to you accusation of me being a "leech", let me just add that you are quite incorrect. That's all I am going to give you with regards to obliging such a baseless, childish statement with a reply. Knock it off.

> > > > > > * If by "use stuff to improve their skill" you mean "Hack the game utilizing game breaking functionality like teleportion, speed increases and no-clip," then I would fault you on the former bit of logic there that said people "carr[ied] [me]" through the game, as I would NEVER allow a player utilizing these tools to do ANYTHING for me, as it is reprehensible behavior that is deserving of nothing short of permanent account termination, let alone the paultry 6 month ban ANET has issued to these deviants.

> > > > > > * As for your comment about working for ArenaNet - while that's a flattering suggesting, I'm quite happy in my current career; however, I do appreciate the sentiment. :+1:

> > > > >

> > > > > Well, propsfor explaining all that stuff (that's already more then clear to me), but let's think back to my first post then, and I'll quote something you've just said here: "To anyone with more than layman's understanding or a passing fancy of programming, what he (Mr. Cleary) said is QUITE clear".

> > > > > So, after saying it yourself, you really think that Arenanet couldn't have done anything to prevent this ban-storm? We are not talking about programming and coding here, we are talking about a company who develops games for people who would like to play games, simple as that. The clientele doesn't consists of players who are also happen to be professional application developers. So with this in mind, do you really think it's fair the way Arenanet is acting now. I don't know about you, but let me give you an example of how this third-party software is being shared.

> > > > >

> > > > > X: Hey, you've heard about the new DPS meter called "ARCDPS",you should download it, it's very good.

> > > > > Y: Well, I don't know, my account is very precious to me so I don't think we should download it, even when it will help me improve my skill.

> > > > > X: No man, it's no problem, let me send you a recent link about Arenanet's policy on this.

> > > > > *Sends link from forum with a statement about the ARCDPS version 2.0 (including complicated, vague crapz)*

> > > > > Y: So, they're alright with it then, nice!

> > > > > *Downloads ARCDPS 5.0*

> > > > >

> > > > > I understand what you're saying, but if you are working with people, you should know something about human behavior and demeanor. All I am saying is, that you should be clear and simple about stuff like this, especially when you want to take actions again your OWN clientele! So again and in other words: If Arenanet forestalled all the third-party software from the beginning, you wouldn't have to ban 1500 people. People took the third-party software crapz way too far, and Arenanet has a fair share in it themselves!

> > > >

> > > > I'm sorry. Is human stupidity now an excuse to cheat? Ha! Excuse me... I'll be right back. I am going to go hit myself over the head with a frying pan until I've lost a few million brain cells and then go rob a bank. CLEARLY, this is a valid excuse.

> > > >

> > > > Also, no one was banned for using ArcDPS. ArcDPS uses temporal data... full stop. It doesn't write to active memory, it doesn't write to standby memory/passive memory, and it doesn't read protected memory. So, remind me again, how would ArcDPS get you banned? I'd love to hear the explanation for how it would, as I have provided you a clear and concise reason it would NOT.

> > > >

> > > > And this laughable joke that TacO is getting people banned is... absolutely HYSTERICAL.

> > > >

> > > > This entire "But I only used XYZ program/addon/mod" is really chuckle worthy. I mean, cmon... Let's get real here.

> > > >

> > > > ANET has zero fault in this. They cannot keep track of people making forks of approved 3rd party applications. They covered themselves by stating that they can't guarnatee operational stability of these apps, nor the integrity of these."

> > > >

> > > > That's why, if people choose to use 3rd party addons/apps/mods, they need to be aware of what they're doing, how to do it; otherwise, don't do it. Ignorance is not an excuse.

> > >

> > > And that's EXACTLY why they should've been clear about it! Because YES, people are stupid, and there is nothing we can do about it. And people taking the whole hand when given just one finger isn't something new these days isn't it? Again, I totally understand your pov, but In my humble opinion, this could've been prevented easily. =)

> >

> > Pray tell... how?

>

> By disallowing EVERY third-party program, instead of creating a situation in which the line between harmful and harmless is getting thinner and thinner. Specially with people around that just play games and have no knowledge about this staff. Only a really naive person would think that most people who download third-party software/tools are first going to read everything about it. Although, I guess Arenanet can be naive sometimes. :p

 

What thin line? See, again, this is a FUNDAMENTAL misunderstanding of what is allowed. And this midunderstanding is simply a player ignoring the available ToS that pretty much lays it out. Reading is fundamental!

 

If the mod in question gives more data than is available to the player normally, it is NOT ALLOWED. ArcDPS is allowed... it essentially takes snapshots of the same data in the combat log, and organizes it quickly for the player to view. This is how temporal data functions.

 

TacO utilizes the Mumble API and uses static data to render 2D markers for known pathing, etc. It's an aid, just like watching a YouTube "how to" video, except turned into an overlay.

 

There is a VAST difference between what these two primary mods/addons do and speed hacking, teleporting, etc. If a player cannot realize that, they are beyond stupid... they're being wilfully ignorant or they're out to cheat. Either way, they don't deserve to play at that point.

 

There aren't legitimate excuses for this crap. End. Of. Story.

[Urud.4925]

People leave and come back to GW2, so never say never. Banning 1.5k paying users is also a big loss for ArenaNet, I'm sure they aren't happy either. And I'm personally astonished to find so many cheaters in a non competitive game like this.

 

But I'm worried after such big bans: I never cheated (simply because I play videogames to have fun) but I've been banned in the past in another MMO, without receiving any proof or specific statement (could be some false-positive or someone who used my account, no idea). And I hated it (I've been unbanned, after further investigation, but I decided to quit anyway). A mistake can happen and players should have the right to ask for more information.

 

EDIT: I haven't been banned. I just understand the people who think to be 100% sure that they didn't do anything wrong. Maybe they did something wrong, but they cannot know it.

[Nezekan.2671]

I got suspended in middle of fractals and I'm only using arcdps, nothing more. This is unacceptable and horrendous practice, add to that the slow process of answering tickets, its too much.

 

I already submitted a ticket yesterday but we will probably not get an answer today, and I highly doubt the support staff even work during the weekends. So the earliest time we will get an answer is Monday, which again I doubt we will get an answer. I think the quickest time Anet staff answered a support ticket was 7 days. So its very possible no one will get an answer until 23rd.

[aspirine.6852]

I don't get it, what exactly did you do.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"freeman.7315" said:

> > @"Charrbeque.8729" said:

> > > @"freeman.7315" said:

> > > I think Anet could have actually saved all those who got banned by mistake if they would simply make an official in-game dmg meter and a build template. But hey,i guess instead of doing something that would actually improve the quality of the game and stop most people from using these 3rd party software, they would rather make sittable chairs. Yeah....

> >

> > That's like blaming a grocery store for high prices when someone steals a loaf of bread.

> >

> > This isn't ArenaNet's fault. They have rules in place. Just because there isn't a feature in the game you want, doesn't give you the right do do whatever you want.

>

> I am not defending people who hacked,cheated or broken ToS in any way. But too many people are claiming they were using Arc and Taco only or one respectively, and still got banned. As far as i'm aware of both of those were allowed by Anet and even promoted in certain cases. Anet themselves made dmg meter and build templates essential with introduction of raids. But by all means,let them pour all their time for usable in game beds that we can have on the next update.

 

Not exactly true... a net said certain 3rd party programs could be used but as they do not support them it is at your own risk... if those programs are modified or revised in some way that then triggers a flag then you have no where to run and actions could be taken... but I am not convinced those programs are at the heart of this ban wave.

As for raids making dps meters and templates essential.. that simply is not true.

[Sojar.1495]

> @"Nezekan.2671" said:

> I got suspended in middle of fractals and I'm only using arcdps, nothing more. This is unacceptable and horrendous practice, add to that the slow process of answering tickets, its too much.

>

> I already submitted a ticket yesterday but we will probably not get an answer today, and I highly doubt the support staff even work during the weekends. So the earliest time we will get an answer is Monday, which again I doubt we will get an answer. I think the quickest time Anet staff answered a support ticket was 7 days. So its very possible no one will get an answer until 23rd.

 

Did you now? Just ArcDPS huh? Funny, not one SINGLE soul I know of in game, nor anyone in their guilds, got banned for REGULARLY using ArcDPS. Considering all the people and connections they have to 400-500 member guilds, I'd wager I'm connected to AT LEAST 20,000 players. Not a single one was banned for using ArcDPS.

 

Tell you what.... I'll make you a deal.

 

If I get banned in the coming weeks for only using TacO and ArcDPS, I will LITERALLY buy you a brand new Guild Wars 2 account including all expansions, I'll buy you $1000 in gems and I'll give you every single material on my account after my ban expires.

 

But, if I am not banned for using the "same program" as you, you have to come on the forums and admit your post is an outright lie.

 

I will GUARANTEE I will do what I've listed here. In fact, I'll even have @"Chris Cleary.8017" ban my account forever if I fail to uphold my deal (assuming I'm banned). That's how entirely confident I am in saying "liar liar, pants on fire."