Please Overhaul Raids.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> Considering it's their party, and that the majority have to agree on it, isn't it their right to do so?

In raids, it's enough if _one_ person agrees on it. The one doing the kicking (commander).

 

> @"nia.4725" said:

> Yup it is, but sometimes you just want or need an easy, smooth kill.

Lower difficulty helps with that.

 

> @"nia.4725" said:

> But as I say I understand in their context this doesn't offend. I guess it's like those friends who insult each other and no one gets mad lol.

Most of the time eventually you find out that one side did, in fact, mind it, but was simply keeping quiet in order not to disrupt the friendship. Until the point they had enough.

 

Basically, the player stepping out values friendship more than the game, but the player asking that person to step out values game more than friendship. Eventually those differences in approach will cause problems.

Seen that very thing destroy more than one raiding guild in my past in other games.

 

[nia.4725]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> Most of the time eventually you find out that one side did, in fact, mind it, but was simply keeping quiet in order not to disrupt the friendship. Until the point they had enough.

>

> Basically, the player stepping out values friendship more than the game, but the player asking that person to step out values game more than friendship. Eventually those differences in approach will cause problems.

> Seen that very thing destroy more than one raiding guild in my past in other games.

>

 

This can be true sometimes, but it isn't always true. Relationships vary so much that, really, what you're saying is just a possibility. This is surely the case for some people, some other people won't care at all. Some people will care and express their discontent. I would be a case of the last option, if it happened to me, but that doesn't mean someone else can't be a case of the first.

 

I in fact have some friendships where I can use freely _some_ insults and receive the same, in _some_ contexts, and neither me nor my friend will feel offended. This is very common in my country (Spain), where for example when a friend you're very comfortable with has stroke of luck (like, I don't know, winning a raffle) you can say to them "qué asqueroso" (how filthy) and we all know that even if the word is an insult, it is used to say something like "wow, you're so lucky, I envy you".

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> >Oh, but it is about quantity. You're the one crying for months because a tiny fraction of the game isn't suited to your tastes.

>

> No, I've been talking about *this* portion of the game. I haven't been complaining about WvW. I don't play that either.

>

> It's not about quantity.

>

> >If you cared about the principle, you should have been advocating the hard modes first,

>

> No, that's not *my* principle. You're free to though, nobody's trying to stop you.

>

> >What you actually care about, though, are the free rewards. Sad story.

>

> Not free, earned, just through a different path. And I've never been evasive about wanting a path to the rewards, nor that it's only part of my objective here.

>

 

Earned for no effort. That's pretty much free in my book.

Nice cherrypicking though. I guess the rest of the sentences I wrote hit too close so you felt you'd rather ignore them.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > >Oh, but it is about quantity. You're the one crying for months because a tiny fraction of the game isn't suited to your tastes.

> >

> > No, I've been talking about *this* portion of the game. I haven't been complaining about WvW. I don't play that either.

> >

> > It's not about quantity.

> >

> > >If you cared about the principle, you should have been advocating the hard modes first,

> >

> > No, that's not *my* principle. You're free to though, nobody's trying to stop you.

> >

> > >What you actually care about, though, are the free rewards. Sad story.

> >

> > Not free, earned, just through a different path. And I've never been evasive about wanting a path to the rewards, nor that it's only part of my objective here.

> >

>

> Earned for no effort. That's pretty much free in my book.

 

But not in *actual* books, which is why the term should not be used like that when talking to people who aren't yourself.

 

> Nice cherrypicking though. I guess the rest of the sentences I wrote hit too close so you felt you'd rather ignore them.

 

What do you feel I missed? I thought I hit the important bits. I only cut out the specific part I'm responding to so it's clear what I'm referencing, I wasn't deliberately *avoiding* anything. The only sentence I actually removed was *"And winning that, you should then proceed to the easy modes, making a much more compelling and legitimate case."*, which I felt I'd adequately addressed in reference to the preceding sentence, since because *"If you cared about the principle, you should have been advocating the hard modes first, not the easy ones, as the people who like that have so much less to enjoy in the game. "* wasn't accurate, the following sentence had no functional basis. It would be like if someone said "because what goes up, must stay up. . ." whatever came after that didn't really have anything useful to say do to the inaccuracy of the foundational premise.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Earned for no effort. That's pretty much free in my book.

It's not no effort either. Even if you claim otherwise.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > Earned for no effort. That's pretty much free in my book.

> It's not no effort either. Even if you claim otherwise.

>

>

 

If you read carefully what Ohoni wants, it *is* practically no effort. Ye, ye, months and all that. Months of pressing '1'. Nope.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > Earned for no effort. That's pretty much free in my book.

> > It's not no effort either. Even if you claim otherwise.

> >

> >

>

> If you read carefully what Ohoni wants, it *is* practically no effort. Ye, ye, months and all that. Months of pressing '1'. Nope.

 

If you read carefully what I say, then you might actually *read what I say,* which is not that.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > But "tough love" or horribleness aside, the point of my post is that the guy i was quoting was making a false equivalence. These "elitism" claims are never inside a premade group or a group of friends, it's about PuGs and getting people through LFG, that's where these issues arise. And in those cases you should be ready to pull your weight unless otherwise stated.

>

> I try to pull be weight as best I can, I don't want to be a burden on anyone, but if the content demands more from me than I care to give, then rather than giving up on the content entirely, I'd like to have an alternate version that simply demands *less* of me, so that I *can* pull my own weight and *not* burden anyone.

 

That's simply not how life works. Sorry... You can't expect freebies just because "life's too hard".

 

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > But as I say I understand in their context this doesn't offend. I guess it's like those friends who insult each other and no one gets mad lol.

> Most of the time eventually you find out that one side did, in fact, mind it, but was simply keeping quiet in order not to disrupt the friendship. Until the point they had enough.

>

> Basically, the player stepping out values friendship more than the game, but the player asking that person to step out values game more than friendship. Eventually those differences in approach will cause problems.

> Seen that very thing destroy more than one raiding guild in my past in other games.

>

Again, assuming a bit too much aren't we? I've been playing with these guys for 8+ years in average (i started the guild in 2005), we mostly met playing MMORPGs. They know that i push them, but i'm never unfair, and i never expect more from them than i expect from myself. And that i'll be the first one to take a couple of hours out of my play time to set them up to succeed.

 

I value their friendship way more than any game, but the flip-side is also true, it would be a piss poor friendship if they would end it because i benched them on a run, or if they'd use it just to be carried on content. Of course, people looking to be carried around will only see the side of the person getting carried and defend that side of the equation.

 

@"nia.4725" Yep! Pretty much... Works the same in Portugal btw. I guess Iberia hasn't been overrun with Political correctness yet!

[nia.4725]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > But "tough love" or horribleness aside, the point of my post is that the guy i was quoting was making a false equivalence. These "elitism" claims are never inside a premade group or a group of friends, it's about PuGs and getting people through LFG, that's where these issues arise. And in those cases you should be ready to pull your weight unless otherwise stated.

> >

> > I try to pull be weight as best I can, I don't want to be a burden on anyone, but if the content demands more from me than I care to give, then rather than giving up on the content entirely, I'd like to have an alternate version that simply demands *less* of me, so that I *can* pull my own weight and *not* burden anyone.

>

> That's simply not how life works. Sorry... You can't expect freebies just because "life's too hard".

>

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > But as I say I understand in their context this doesn't offend. I guess it's like those friends who insult each other and no one gets mad lol.

> > Most of the time eventually you find out that one side did, in fact, mind it, but was simply keeping quiet in order not to disrupt the friendship. Until the point they had enough.

> >

> > Basically, the player stepping out values friendship more than the game, but the player asking that person to step out values game more than friendship. Eventually those differences in approach will cause problems.

> > Seen that very thing destroy more than one raiding guild in my past in other games.

> >

> Again, assuming a bit too much aren't we? I've been playing with these guys for 8+ years in average (i started the guild in 2005), we mostly met playing MMORPGs. They know that i push them, but i'm never unfair, and i never expect more from them than i expect from myself. And that i'll be the first one to take a couple of hours out of my play time to set them up to succeed.

>

> I value their friendship way more than any game, but the flip-side is also true, it would be a kitten poor friendship if they would end it because i benched them on a run, or if they'd use it just to be carried on content. Of course, people looking to be carried around will only see the side of the person getting carried and defend that side of the equation.

>

> @"nia.4725" Yep! Pretty much... Works the same in Portugal btw. I guess Iberia hasn't been overrun with Political correctness yet!

 

Spain will always be Spain /shrugs

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > But "tough love" or horribleness aside, the point of my post is that the guy i was quoting was making a false equivalence. These "elitism" claims are never inside a premade group or a group of friends, it's about PuGs and getting people through LFG, that's where these issues arise. And in those cases you should be ready to pull your weight unless otherwise stated.

> > >

> > > I try to pull be weight as best I can, I don't want to be a burden on anyone, but if the content demands more from me than I care to give, then rather than giving up on the content entirely, I'd like to have an alternate version that simply demands *less* of me, so that I *can* pull my own weight and *not* burden anyone.

> >

> > That's simply not how life works. Sorry... You can't expect freebies just because "life's too hard".

> >

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > But as I say I understand in their context this doesn't offend. I guess it's like those friends who insult each other and no one gets mad lol.

> > > Most of the time eventually you find out that one side did, in fact, mind it, but was simply keeping quiet in order not to disrupt the friendship. Until the point they had enough.

> > >

> > > Basically, the player stepping out values friendship more than the game, but the player asking that person to step out values game more than friendship. Eventually those differences in approach will cause problems.

> > > Seen that very thing destroy more than one raiding guild in my past in other games.

> > >

> > Again, assuming a bit too much aren't we? I've been playing with these guys for 8+ years in average (i started the guild in 2005), we mostly met playing MMORPGs. They know that i push them, but i'm never unfair, and i never expect more from them than i expect from myself. And that i'll be the first one to take a couple of hours out of my play time to set them up to succeed.

> >

> > I value their friendship way more than any game, but the flip-side is also true, it would be a kitten poor friendship if they would end it because i benched them on a run, or if they'd use it just to be carried on content. Of course, people looking to be carried around will only see the side of the person getting carried and defend that side of the equation.

> >

> > @"nia.4725" Yep! Pretty much... Works the same in Portugal btw. I guess Iberia hasn't been overrun with Political correctness yet!

>

> Spain will always be Spain /shrugs

 

"If it ain't broke don't fix it"

[nia.4725]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > But "tough love" or horribleness aside, the point of my post is that the guy i was quoting was making a false equivalence. These "elitism" claims are never inside a premade group or a group of friends, it's about PuGs and getting people through LFG, that's where these issues arise. And in those cases you should be ready to pull your weight unless otherwise stated.

> > > >

> > > > I try to pull be weight as best I can, I don't want to be a burden on anyone, but if the content demands more from me than I care to give, then rather than giving up on the content entirely, I'd like to have an alternate version that simply demands *less* of me, so that I *can* pull my own weight and *not* burden anyone.

> > >

> > > That's simply not how life works. Sorry... You can't expect freebies just because "life's too hard".

> > >

> > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > But as I say I understand in their context this doesn't offend. I guess it's like those friends who insult each other and no one gets mad lol.

> > > > Most of the time eventually you find out that one side did, in fact, mind it, but was simply keeping quiet in order not to disrupt the friendship. Until the point they had enough.

> > > >

> > > > Basically, the player stepping out values friendship more than the game, but the player asking that person to step out values game more than friendship. Eventually those differences in approach will cause problems.

> > > > Seen that very thing destroy more than one raiding guild in my past in other games.

> > > >

> > > Again, assuming a bit too much aren't we? I've been playing with these guys for 8+ years in average (i started the guild in 2005), we mostly met playing MMORPGs. They know that i push them, but i'm never unfair, and i never expect more from them than i expect from myself. And that i'll be the first one to take a couple of hours out of my play time to set them up to succeed.

> > >

> > > I value their friendship way more than any game, but the flip-side is also true, it would be a kitten poor friendship if they would end it because i benched them on a run, or if they'd use it just to be carried on content. Of course, people looking to be carried around will only see the side of the person getting carried and defend that side of the equation.

> > >

> > > @"nia.4725" Yep! Pretty much... Works the same in Portugal btw. I guess Iberia hasn't been overrun with Political correctness yet!

> >

> > Spain will always be Spain /shrugs

>

> "If it ain't broke don't fix it"

 

You know, political correctness isn't something very fashionable here in the south XDDDDD

[Ferelwing.8463]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> One thing i could see them do is feature a partner made guides of the bosses on the site and their youtube channel a week or 2 after the wing is cleared.

>

> WoW has the journal but that might not be where they want to take the game so instead promotimg the community through video guides is the best way to go about it.

 

I really wish people would quit with the stupid videos.... Just give it to me in text please, ty. I HATE sitting through commentary or listening to music rather than just having something written down so I can go back and double check....

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > One thing i could see them do is feature a partner made guides of the bosses on the site and their youtube channel a week or 2 after the wing is cleared.

> >

> > WoW has the journal but that might not be where they want to take the game so instead promotimg the community through video guides is the best way to go about it.

>

> I really wish people would quit with the stupid videos.... Just give it to me in text please, ty. I HATE sitting through commentary or listening to music rather than just having something written down so I can go back and double check....

 

So true, even with class guides and rotations... It's not like GW2 is known for it's easy to read moves.

[Grogba.6204]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

 

> So true, even with class guides and rotations... It's not like GW2 is known for it's easy to read moves.

 

Doesn't apply to raidbosses who attack incredible sluggish and the frontal attacks are for the "tank" to worry about anyway, everything else is telegraphed.

 

[Ferelwing.8463]

> @"Grogba.6204" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

>

> > So true, even with class guides and rotations... It's not like GW2 is known for it's easy to read moves.

>

> Doesn't apply to raidbosses who attack incredible sluggish and the frontal attacks are for the "tank" to worry about anyway, everything else is telegraphed.

>

 

..... I can't stand the video culture, it's irritating that everything is now done via video. Some of us like text. Yes, I'm old school and I got into MMO's before they had video content (MUD's were the original MMO and all of it was text based). So while some people can sit there and see which skills are being pushed and have time to sit there and listen to someone talk your ear off for however long it takes them to finish the encounter there are some of us who just want to know with a mountain of text what needs to be done rather than sitting through listening to someone else talk.

 

I used to sit there and read damage tallies in text while things were spamming in my face constantly in a MUD, I can read much faster and get it quicker in TEXT than I can ever in a video.

 

So yeah I read the rotations in text, but if someone tells me to watch a video about it... How about nope.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Grogba.6204" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

>

> > So true, even with class guides and rotations... It's not like GW2 is known for it's easy to read moves.

>

> Doesn't apply to raidbosses who attack incredible sluggish and the frontal attacks are for the "tank" to worry about anyway, everything else is telegraphed.

>

Seriously, did someone hurt you today? I'm sorry man... But seriously, read before you attack...

 

Last i checked **class guides and rotations** are NOT about boss attacks.

And some boss attacks, most notably VG's Blues are notoriously difficult to read.

[Grogba.6204]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> Seriously, did someone hurt you today? I'm sorry man... But seriously, read before you attack...

 

You mentioned readability of moves so I concluded that you meant reading the attacks/mechanics of various bosses.

 

Nobody forces either of you to watch the videos about the encounters or class rotations, it's simply easier to link them. Everything you want to know is available on the wiki, various guild websites (Snow Crows i.e.) or guide websites (Metabattle, Dulfy, Guildnews, etc.) or ingame via other players or ultimately trial & error.

 

 

 

[Vinceman.4572]

Dulfy.net <--- Read there!

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Grogba.6204" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

>

> > So true, even with class guides and rotations... It's not like GW2 is known for it's easy to read moves.

>

> Doesn't apply to raidbosses who attack incredible sluggish and the frontal attacks are for the "tank" to worry about anyway, everything else is telegraphed.

>

Sure, and then i see the video where the explaining group makes a kill so fast and clean that i just can't see what the problem could even be with doing it.

 

Video is useful, but only as a visualisation to a written commentary. Without that commentary its usefulness drops down a lot.

 

And as for class guides and rotations - no, i can't see anything in those except damage numbers. There's a ton of tricks that some classes use that simply cannot be seen if you already don't know what to look for, and on most videos it can be challenging to even follow the order of skills used.

 

Not to mention, quite often a simple explanation of _why_ you need to do something can be far, far more useful than hours of videos.

 

For example, there was a nice video on weaver some time before the last patch, that explained the rotation in very concise matter. It was that explanation that made the video so good, not the video itself. And that explanation could have been done as easily in a written form with no need to even see the weaver going through rotations.

 

[Teamkiller.4315]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > Forgive me for saying so, but those guys sound like real kittenhats. I'm glad I don't have to associate with them in game, that sounds like a horrible experience.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I get your point, but I think it depends. I mean, there's nothing wrong in wanting people with a experience similar to yours in your squad. It's natural. You don't always have the will or the time to help newer players or to spend more time killing a boss. Sometimes you just want a smooth, fast kill, and high requirements reduce the chance of not enough experienced players joining. But as I say it depends on how you treat people -you can say "I'm sorry, I want more experienced people" and that's okay, or you can say "sorry no noobs here" and that's not okay at all.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ask yourself this, if you were doing a dungeon in GW2 would you apply the same mentality? I'm sure you don't, so think why is that - difficulty is the key. When myself or guildies group up with people, we dont 'evaluate' them, we simple try and enjoy the run, and don't get triggered by diversity, its all part of the fun. If you tune a raid to the same difficulty level as a dungeon (10 man dungeon in effect) then things should be relaxed enough you can focus on enjoying stuff rather than being anal/fearful about performance

> > > > >

> > > > > Imagine a game where hundreds of thousands of players all treated each other this way - measuring everything in terms if performance, toxic right.

> > > >

> > > > The thing is, running the faceroll content gets boring. I can only enjoy it so much. Then it becomes running the same track, blasting the same faceless mobs into oblivion while sipping my coffee half-awake. Nothing memorable, nothing exciting.

> > > > If I didn't have the raids to challenge me on a weekly basis, I'd have quit long ago. So yeah, difficulty is key. But the reasons differ for different players.

> > >

> > > That's cool. That's you, and that's fine, so long as you recognize that not everyone is the same way.

> > >

> > > If you want to keep doing the same raids, you can, but some of us are looking for something a bit different.

> >

> > 95% of the PvE content not good enough? Gluttony is considered a sin in some religions, you know.

>

> Again, it's not a matter of "enough."

 

You already have nearly everything and you want even more, why don't you let the raiding community enjoy their niche? Envoy armor is envied because it also says something about the person who got it, namely that they dedicated themselves to raids, through self improvement and persistence of coordinating with like minded players (or were horribly rich). By opening up access to it through the easy mode that you've been advocating, the impact of the character statement would be watered down or even lost. In effect it "cheapens" the prestige of the envoy armor, and a lot of people who earned that through hard work so they could show it off would be understandably upset. It would be as if you who worked tirelessly on your legendary weapon for months suddenly found that anet decided legendaries shouldnt take the dedication they do and made it 90% easier and faster to get. Now your prized legendary is in the hands of all the players. How would you feel? Don't actually answer that question, because I'm fully ecpecting an insincere answer.

 

I'm not much of a raider ( < 50 LI) either, nor do I have envoy armor or any plans to get any legendary ever. Take my statements for what they're worth.

[nia.4725]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Grogba.6204" said:

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> >

> > > So true, even with class guides and rotations... It's not like GW2 is known for it's easy to read moves.

> >

> > Doesn't apply to raidbosses who attack incredible sluggish and the frontal attacks are for the "tank" to worry about anyway, everything else is telegraphed.

> >

> Sure, and then i see the video where the explaining group makes a kill so fast and clean that i just can't see what the problem could even be with doing it.

>

> Video is useful, but only as a visualisation to a written commentary. Without that commentary its usefulness drops down a lot.

>

> And as for class guides and rotations - no, i can't see anything in those except damage numbers. There's a ton of tricks that some classes use that simply cannot be seen if you already don't know what to look for, and on most videos it can be challenging to even follow the order of skills used.

>

> Not to mention, quite often a simple explanation of _why_ you need to do something can be far, far more useful than hours of videos.

>

> For example, there was a nice video on weaver some time before the last patch, that explained the rotation in very concise matter. It was that explanation that made the video so good, not the video itself. And that explanation could have been done as easily in a written form with no need to even see the weaver going through rotations.

>

 

This is so true. I learn nothing from watching the rotation videos of the classes I play. This is what I do: I read the additional notes (every class has some useful explanations on how to prioritize skills and how to play in general), I read and write down the written rotation, then I go to the training robot and try to execute it skill by skill. The videos are too fast and having to change between the browser and GW2 is not comfortable for me. Even though the rotations have those extra notes on how to play (at least the ones from Snowcrows, it's difficult to even find the information on how it works and why it has to be like it is. And this is what I struggle with; I don't want to press a sequence of buttons like a robot, I want to understand what I have to do. I'm lucky to have an awesome raid leader that always explains everything to me, but the majority of players don't have access to that kind of information. However, this is a problem kinda difficult to adress -I mean, it depends completely on the good will on those who take the time to produce useful content for other players, but they do not have any obligation to do it.

 

I've been doing some raid guides (for now I have a complete Escort guide and a Xera tanking one), and they are completely written and have explanations on how and why. It's very time consuming to do this kind of guides. I even started a druid guide, but that will be very long to do if I want to do it in a way that anyone can know, by merely reading it, how to play druid, what to do to accomplish its goal (how to give might, how to use the celestial avatar...). it's very complicated. You need to think how you want to present the information, how to organize it, and how to express it. It has to be concise and easy to read and understand, but it also has to be precise, accurate and exhaustive enough.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> That's simply not how life works. Sorry... You can't expect freebies just because "life's too hard".

 

This isn't life.

 

This is a game.

 

There are no rules other than the ones ANet decides to impose.

 

> @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> You already have nearly everything and you want even more, why don't you let the raiding community enjoy their niche?

 

I;m fine with them enjoying it. I want them to enjoy it. Nobody's talking about reducing that enjoyment.

 

This would be something else, *in addition to* the existing niche, and targeted at the players who would enjoy a raid experience that's lower stress and lower hassle.

 

>Envoy armor is envied because it also says something about the person who got it, namely that they dedicated themselves to raids, through self improvement and persistence of coordinating with like minded players (or were horribly rich).

 

Nobody cares about that, the point is that it has those animations and activation effects, and parts of the armor look cool.

 

> In effect it "cheapens" the prestige of the envoy armor, and a lot of people who earned that through hard work so they could show it off would be understandably upset.

 

You can't "cheapen" zero. Anyone who did a bunch of raiding just so they could show off deserves to be disappointed by how little anyone cares about that sort of thing, but they certainly aren't entitled to shut out other players from also having those skins through other paths.

 

>It would be as if you who worked tirelessly on your legendary weapon for months suddenly found that anet decided legendaries shouldnt take the dedication they do and made it 90% easier and faster to get.

 

You mean like when they added wardrobes that allowed you to copy the skins over to multiple weapons? Yes, I do remember when they already did that. I am fine with it. There is literally nothing that I've earned in this game that I would be *upset* at the idea of other players having it easier than I did. I am not a monster.

 

 

 

 

[Teamkiller.4315]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> I;m fine with them enjoying it. I want them to enjoy it. Nobody's talking about reducing that enjoyment.

 

Oh but you're not okay with it. You're not okay with them having a cool looking skin for doing something you can't, or rather I should say, refuse to learn to do.

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

>You mean like when they added wardrobes that allowed you to copy the skins over to multiple weapons?

 

You know exactly what I'm talking about, don't feign ignorance. "Let's make copies of one of your prized possessions that you worked incredibly hard for and hand it out to everyone as a participation trophy." You wouldn't get annoyed? Well if you wouldn't, great for you, but that's not how ordinary people would react.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> Oh but you're not okay with it. You're not okay with them having a cool looking skin for doing something you can't, or rather I should say, refuse to learn to do.

 

Of course I'm fine with them having a cool looking skin for doing something I can't, or rather I should say, refuse to learn to do. I just don't think they should have *exclusive* access to it.

 

That shouldn't harm their experience in any way, unless they can only enjoy things because other people don't have them.

 

>You know exactly what I'm talking about, don't feign ignorance. "Let's make copies of one of your prized possessions that you worked incredibly hard for and hand it out to everyone as a participation trophy." You wouldn't get annoyed?

 

When they made the change, a lot of players had worked very hard to earn two copies of various Legendaries so that they could dual-wield them, and the change meant that anyone could do that.

 

Seriously though, I do not mind. The hardest thing I had to work for was probably The Ascension, took forever and I hated every step of the process. Would I be mad if they now made it easier to get? **Kitten no,** I think that would be great, because it would mean that a lot more players could be happy to have it. Why should anyone be upset about that?

 

The only time it's *ever* a bad thing for developers to reduce the cost of an ingame item is if they do it too quickly after the initial release (without advanced warning that they would do so), or with no compensation for people who *just* purchased at the original price. It's like if they announce that an item just went on sale at 50%, then they should probably offer a partial refund to anyone who purchased it for full price within a week or so, but they owe absolutely nothing to people who had already had it for months.

 

>Well if you wouldn't, great for you, but that's not how ordinary people would react.

 

You greatly underestimate "ordinary people."

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > I;m fine with them enjoying it. I want them to enjoy it. Nobody's talking about reducing that enjoyment.

>

> Oh but you're not okay with it. You're not okay with them having a cool looking skin for doing something you can't, or rather I should say, refuse to learn to do.

>

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> >You mean like when they added wardrobes that allowed you to copy the skins over to multiple weapons?

>

> You know exactly what I'm talking about, don't feign ignorance. "Let's make copies of one of your prized possessions that you worked incredibly hard for and hand it out to everyone as a participation trophy." You wouldn't get annoyed? Well if you wouldn't, great for you, but that's not how ordinary people would react.

 

if its a different skin, and it take proportionally longer to attain then it has no bearing on your precious gear. Just like WVW and sPVP where simple farming gains legendary gear - your not offended by that right?