Teamkiller.4315 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > Hmm, ok. I mean, I can lead a horse to water. . . Or you know instead of trying to drown people in your verbosity of why your strawman isn't really that bad you could just stop doing them. Pretty simple imo. > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > But again, just because it has happened, doesn't mean we can't *try* to do better. No it's more idealistic, not necessarily "better". > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > I doubt I could actually *find* the point where this was happening, but they were having some glitchiness with "raid squads" back during the early raid betas. Hard to say for what reason, exactly. So how am I supposed to know you weren't just making this "trouble getting 10 man squads to work" thing up? That aside, you also missed the most important part of my explanation, which I will post again: _It's very possible they could've had trouble getting squads down to 10 man because they hardcoded squad cap at 50 initially, because you know they didn't plan raids out originally. But if they've fixed that and made it possible to get 10, it's unfathomable that they didn't write some solution that parameterized the squad cap in some way, so unfathomable that it'd have to be intentional malice or something to make the code harder to maintain._ Are you going to respond to this with more "we don't know for sure so by default I'm assuming it's harder because it's convenient for me" lines? > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > I *want* to find a solution that makes everyone happy. **If that is possible**, then that's what I want to happen. "No envoy armor outside of normal mode" would not make everyone happy, so, just as an example, that would not be a result that makes everyone happy. So, plan A, "make everyone happy." Plan B, "make as many people happy as possible, and if we have to choose between people being happy about *having* Envoy armor verses people being happy that other people *don't* have it, then we choose the former, *always.'*** First of all, you _lied_ when you said "I'm all ears, I want to make everyone happy", is what this post basically boils down to. Second, the point of a compromise isn't to choose one side or the other, it's to satisfy as many people as possible, which most often involves making concessions to both sides. What you're doing instead "make as many people happy" on _one side_ as you can, even if there's a solution that would compromise some of your initial demands that would satisfy more people. **You aren't receptive to criticism at all**. What you're also doing here is putting your own wants and needs before everyone else's, on _both sides_. You know that's totally normal, but I don't often see people mask it under the guise of being the "tribune for the plebs" sort of thing. That's kind of, how can I put this, evil? > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > Apparently you think I have final say in what ANet does Needs citation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"nia.4725" said: >And the fact that you're not fine with something does not mean that thing is flawed or wrong. Perhaps so, but I'm just saying "I'm fine with it" is not a *counter*-argument to "I have a problem with this." Both can be true at the same time, so I don't know why so many people feel the need to point out "I'm fine with it" in response to any criticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"nia.4725" said: > > Raids are special and so is all that other content that has its own tied skins and rewards. It's not like raids are anything unique, Ohoni. There's plenty of other content that has things that can't be obtained anywhere else. > > > > The thing is that your opinion is that all things should be available in several paths, and we don't agree with you. There isn't much discussion here, since no one is going to change their opinion on the matter. > > Well I was more specifically referencing Butcher's point about "If envoy wasn't tied to raids then i want normal raids to provide something you cannot get elsewhere." If envoy were available in *both* normal and easy mode raids, then why would normal mode require yet another absolute exclusive? Why couldn't it just be like CoF path 1 and CoF path 3 where both reward CoF tokens? > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > Aurora - open world > > Veilrender - pof maps > > Ad infinitum - fractals > > Wvw legendary beckpack - wvw > > Mistward armor - open world..... > > > > I will never get aurora (and i would want it) bacause i dont want to play open world. I dont complain. Its what it is, same as envoy. > > I'll be honest, I'm really kind of tired of this argument. "You can't get X, without doing Y, **and I'm fine with that,"** presumably the unsaid conclusion to that thought would be "and because **I'm** fine with it, you should be too." Well no, that doesn't track. If you're fine with something like that, then that's. . . fine. Whatever. You don't have to be bothered if you don't want to be bothered. But you *can* be bothered. It's ok for you to be bothered by something like that. It makes sense and is an equally valid response, and if you are bothered, if anyone is bothered, then they have the right to try to seek out alternatives. [You being "fine" with a situation](https://www.geek.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/this-is-fine-meme-625x350.jpg) does not somehow make it wrong for anyone else to [*not* be fine with it.](https://thenib.imgix.net/usq/16df25e7-709a-4b61-bdc4-560d7bd8cf3d/this-is-not-fine-tout.png) No, my statement was that I AM FINE WITH THAT. I dont care if you are not. If a game gives everything for free or if everything is locked behind mindless grinds, if time spend in game has higher impact on rewards then skill of a player then thats not a game for me. Why would I support someone that want to change the game more to something i hate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"nia.4725" said: > >And the fact that you're not fine with something does not mean that thing is flawed or wrong. > > Perhaps so, but I'm just saying "I'm fine with it" is not a *counter*-argument to "I have a problem with this." Both can be true at the same time, so I don't know why so many people feel the need to point out "I'm fine with it" in response to any criticism. > We have already given you arguments, but you dismissed them doing the same you always do. Not going to look into my and Feanor's comment history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > So how am I supposed to know you weren't just making this "trouble getting 10 man squads to work" thing up? I don't know, you could, I honestly don't care either way. Should I? >Are you going to respond to this with more "we don't know for sure so by default I'm assuming it's harder because it's convenient for me" lines? Probably not. >First of all, you lied when you said "I'm all ears, I want to make everyone happy", is what this post basically boils down to. No, again, I *am* all ears (which doesn't mean I'll just *agree* to any proposal, just that I'll *listen),* and I *do* want to make everyone happy, I just haven't yet come across a solution that would accomplish that, and if someone *has* to end up less than ideally happy, I'd like it to be the smallest possible group. >Second, the point of a compromise isn't to choose one side or the other, it's to satisfy as many people as possible, which most often involves making concessions to both sides. Yes, which is my goal here, to reach the solution that satisfies all sides as best as is possible. >You're picking one side and picking an extreme position for that side instead of moving towards the middle, which is the exact opposite of what you're claiming. No, I started in the middle and intend to try and keep the discussion focused there, rather than moving more toward the fringes. For example in the loot discussion, on one side we have "Nobody gets Envoy armor without completing the raids in their current form." On the other side we have "Everyone should be able to get the Envoy armor just from farming moas and stuff." The position I staked out was in the middle of the two extremes, "Envoy armor should be available from an easier version of raids, but still require hundreds of hours of active participation in that game mode." I see no reason to move *further* than that toward your own extreme position, I ceded plenty of ground right out of the gate in the name of simplicity. >>@Ohoni.6057 said: >>Apparently you think I have final say in what ANet does >Needs citation. > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: >Has it ever occurred to you that your extreme position is actually making easy mode raids more unlikely and ruining it for those people who actually want to see fair easy mode raids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > So how am I supposed to know you weren't just making this "trouble getting 10 man squads to work" thing up? > > I don't know, you could, I honestly don't care either way. Should I? > > >Are you going to respond to this with more "we don't know for sure so by default I'm assuming it's harder because it's convenient for me" lines? > > Probably not. > > >First of all, you lied when you said "I'm all ears, I want to make everyone happy", is what this post basically boils down to. > > No, again, I *am* all ears (which doesn't mean I'll just *agree* to any proposal, just that I'll *listen),* and I *do* want to make everyone happy, I just haven't yet come across a solution that would accomplish that, and if someone *has* to end up less than ideally happy, I'd like it to be the smallest possible group. > > >Second, the point of a compromise isn't to choose one side or the other, it's to satisfy as many people as possible, which most often involves making concessions to both sides. > > Yes, which is my goal here, to reach the solution that satisfies all sides as best as is possible. > > >You're picking one side and picking an extreme position for that side instead of moving towards the middle, which is the exact opposite of what you're claiming. > > No, I started in the middle and intend to try and keep the discussion focused there, rather than moving more toward the fringes. For example in the loot discussion, on one side we have "Nobody gets Envoy armor without completing the raids in their current form." On the other side we have "Everyone should be able to get the Envoy armor just from farming moas and stuff." The position I staked out was in the middle of the two extremes, "Envoy armor should be available from an easier version of raids, but still require hundreds of hours of active participation in that game mode." I see no reason to move *further* than that toward your own extreme position, I ceded plenty of ground right out of the gate in the name of simplicity. > > >>@Ohoni.6057 said: > >>Apparently you think I have final say in what ANet does > > >Needs citation. > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > >Has it ever occurred to you that your extreme position is actually making easy mode raids more unlikely and ruining it for those people who actually want to see fair easy mode raids? Way i see it it used to be: raids are for elitist and envoy is for them. And you come here and say: raids should be for everyone and envoy too. I domt see a middle ground here. It would be middle ground then you would propose something for the raiders what they didnt have which you didnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > Second, the point of a compromise isn't to choose one side or the other, it's to satisfy as many people as possible, which most often involves making concessions to both sides. Indeed, that's the point of compromise. Remember however that while "your side" position is the current situation (raids 100% for you, 0% for me), mine would be easy mode alone (at best). Normal mode raids are purely for you, not for me. I still consider them to be something that's hurting this game. Thus, what i am talking about lately is already a compromise. A huge one, for me, considering that one of the big reasons why i even picked this game in the first place was because it _didn't_ have raids, and was supposed never to get in that direction. So, if you're speaking about compromise, it's _your_ turn for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > Second, the point of a compromise isn't to choose one side or the other, it's to satisfy as many people as possible, which most often involves making concessions to both sides. > Indeed, that's the point of compromise. Remember however that while "your side" position is the current situation (raids 100% for you, 0% for me), mine would be easy mode alone (at best). Normal mode raids are purely for you, not for me. I still consider them to be something that's hurting this game. Thus, what i am talking about lately is already a compromise. A huge one, for me, considering that one of the big reasons why i even picked this game in the first place was because it _didn't_ have raids, and was supposed never to get in that direction. > So, if you're speaking about compromise, it's _your_ turn for it. > You didnt want raids yet you want easy mode..... You know that you actualy can ignore them right? I dont understand why something that minority play should be bad for the game. Especialy since there are players that play this game only for raids and players that dont want to raid are not forced to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > Second, the point of a compromise isn't to choose one side or the other, it's to satisfy as many people as possible, which most often involves making concessions to both sides. > Indeed, that's the point of compromise. Remember however that while "your side" position is the current situation (raids 100% for you, 0% for me), mine would be easy mode alone (at best). Normal mode raids are purely for you, not for me. I still consider them to be something that's hurting this game. Thus, what i am talking about lately is already a compromise. A huge one, for me, considering that one of the big reasons why i even picked this game in the first place was because it _didn't_ have raids, and was supposed never to get in that direction. > So, if you're speaking about compromise, it's _your_ turn for it. > And I already presented my compromise. Easy raids (everything cut to half) with no kp,li, or ascended drops. If you are interested in story this should be enough for you. Also i proposed ascended weapon(s)of your choice for killing every easy boss once Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > Second, the point of a compromise isn't to choose one side or the other, it's to satisfy as many people as possible, which most often involves making concessions to both sides. > > Indeed, that's the point of compromise. Remember however that while "your side" position is the current situation (raids 100% for you, 0% for me), mine would be easy mode alone (at best). Normal mode raids are purely for you, not for me. I still consider them to be something that's hurting this game. Thus, what i am talking about lately is already a compromise. A huge one, for me, considering that one of the big reasons why i even picked this game in the first place was because it _didn't_ have raids, and was supposed never to get in that direction. > > So, if you're speaking about compromise, it's _your_ turn for it. > > > > And I already presented my compromise. Easy raids (everything cut to half) with no kp,li, or ascended drops. If you are interested in story this should be enough for you. > > Also i proposed ascended weapon(s)of your choice for killing every easy boss once meh ascended gear drops like sweetie as you know fine well and is not a meaningful reward considering wvw/spvp/other raids all offer legendary gear that has stat swaps - which should be no different here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamkiller.4315 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > So how am I supposed to know you weren't just making this "trouble getting 10 man squads to work" thing up? > I don't know, you could, I honestly don't care either way. Should I? Yes you should care about making unsubstantiated claims, but it's quite alright if you don't. We both know who it reflects poorly on, and now everyone knows that whenever you bring this "trouble to get 10 man squads working" line up, they can simply ask for evidence, which then you will refuse to provide. Anytime you want to provide it though, I'll be waiting. > No, I started in the middle and intend to try and keep the discussion focused there, rather than moving more toward the fringes. For example in the loot discussion, on one side we have "Nobody gets Envoy armor without completing the raids in their current form." On the other side we have "Everyone should be able to get the Envoy armor just from farming moas and stuff." The position I staked out was in the middle of the two extremes, "Envoy armor should be available from an easier version of raids, but still require hundreds of hours of active participation in that game mode." I see no reason to move *further* than that toward your own extreme position, **I ceded plenty of ground right out of the gate in the name of simplicity.** Lol _WHAT_?? Let's hear them, these "concessions". This is where the central point lies anyways, is your insane definition of moderate and that fantastical definition being the premise for these extraordinary arguments of yours. > >Needs citation. >@Ohoni.6057 said: > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > >Has it ever occurred to you that your extreme position is actually making easy mode raids more unlikely and ruining it for those people who actually want to see fair easy mode raids? So you didn't find a citation for your outlandish statement? This one: >@Ohoni.6057 said: >Apparently you think I have **final say** in what A-net does ---- > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > Second, the point of a compromise isn't to choose one side or the other, it's to satisfy as many people as possible, which most often involves making concessions to both sides. > Indeed, that's the point of compromise. Remember however that while "your side" position is the current situation (raids 100% for you, 0% for me), mine would be easy mode alone (at best). Normal mode raids are purely for you, not for me. I still consider them to be something that's hurting this game. Thus, what i am talking about lately is already a compromise. A huge one, for me, considering that one of the big reasons why i even picked this game in the first place was because it _didn't_ have raids, and was supposed never to get in that direction. > So, if you're speaking about compromise, it's _your_ turn for it. > You're picking this fight with the wrong person, for 1) I'm not really a raider and 2) I'm not conceptually opposed to easy mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > Second, the point of a compromise isn't to choose one side or the other, it's to satisfy as many people as possible, which most often involves making concessions to both sides. > > > Indeed, that's the point of compromise. Remember however that while "your side" position is the current situation (raids 100% for you, 0% for me), mine would be easy mode alone (at best). Normal mode raids are purely for you, not for me. I still consider them to be something that's hurting this game. Thus, what i am talking about lately is already a compromise. A huge one, for me, considering that one of the big reasons why i even picked this game in the first place was because it _didn't_ have raids, and was supposed never to get in that direction. > > > So, if you're speaking about compromise, it's _your_ turn for it. > > > > > > > And I already presented my compromise. Easy raids (everything cut to half) with no kp,li, or ascended drops. If you are interested in story this should be enough for you. > > > > Also i proposed ascended weapon(s)of your choice for killing every easy boss once > > meh ascended gear drops like sweetie as you know fine well and is not a meaningful reward considering wvw/spvp/other raids all offer legendary gear that has stat swaps - which should be no different here. Its not about the reward. Here are my points what easy raids should represent: 1) option to get into raids 2) option to experiance story without doing raids 3) option to prepare for specific mechanics 4) option to enjoy raids without the need for specific comp And what it shouldnt be: 1) content that is abused to farm 2) easy way for lazy players to get raid specific rewards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > > Second, the point of a compromise isn't to choose one side or the other, it's to satisfy as many people as possible, which most often involves making concessions to both sides. > > > > Indeed, that's the point of compromise. Remember however that while "your side" position is the current situation (raids 100% for you, 0% for me), mine would be easy mode alone (at best). Normal mode raids are purely for you, not for me. I still consider them to be something that's hurting this game. Thus, what i am talking about lately is already a compromise. A huge one, for me, considering that one of the big reasons why i even picked this game in the first place was because it _didn't_ have raids, and was supposed never to get in that direction. > > > > So, if you're speaking about compromise, it's _your_ turn for it. > > > > > > > > > > And I already presented my compromise. Easy raids (everything cut to half) with no kp,li, or ascended drops. If you are interested in story this should be enough for you. > > > > > > Also i proposed ascended weapon(s)of your choice for killing every easy boss once > > > > meh ascended gear drops like sweetie as you know fine well and is not a meaningful reward considering wvw/spvp/other raids all offer legendary gear that has stat swaps - which should be no different here. > > Its not about the reward. Here are my points what easy raids should represent: > 1) option to get into raids > 2) option to experiance story without doing raids > 3) option to prepare for specific mechanics > 4) option to enjoy raids without the need for specific comp > > And what it shouldnt be: > 1) content that is abused to farm > 2) easy way for lazy players to get raid specific rewards > re positives, ofc rewards is a factor, this is a mmorpg. Your first point is addressed with weekly lockouts. RE Lazy that's a well worn accusation made by raiders but If a player can happily enjoy and farm content for a year in wvw then this should be no different, i.e why on earth would you NOT give long term goals to easy mode raiders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamkiller.4315 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 Well one reason i can think of is because you want them to move on to the normal mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > Its not about the reward. Here are my points what easy raids should represent: > 1) option to get into raids > 2) option to experiance story without doing raids > 3) option to prepare for specific mechanics > 4) option to enjoy raids without the need for specific comp > > And what it shouldnt be: > 1) content that is abused to farm > 2) easy way for lazy players to get raid specific rewards And here are my points (in order of importance): 1) wider accessibility to the endgame tier rewards 2) greater accessibility to the content for the average player 3) greater accessibility to raid rewards for the average player As a compromise, i'm willing to not insist on point 3, but 1 and 2 are quite important to me. Notice that adding easy mode with rewards does not have to be the solution. Point 1 could be achieved by adding a different legendary armor set to PvE outside raids. Point 2 by easy mode with generic rewards. Point 3 by completely different acquisition methods (pvp/wvw reward tracks would be satisfactory for me, but a pve method would be preferable). All 3 points could also be achieved by just nerfing the normal mode, of course. > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > Well one reason i can think of is because you want them to move on to the normal mode. You might want that, but for me that's not a primary goal (or even _any_ goal). I see no problem if the solution fulfills that function, and i am wiling to consider and include it in my arguments if it gets me what i want, but survival of raids is not really my personal concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > So how am I supposed to know you weren't just making this "trouble getting 10 man squads to work" thing up? > > > > I don't know, you could, I honestly don't care either way. Should I? > > > > >Are you going to respond to this with more "we don't know for sure so by default I'm assuming it's harder because it's convenient for me" lines? > > > > Probably not. > > > > >First of all, you lied when you said "I'm all ears, I want to make everyone happy", is what this post basically boils down to. > > > > No, again, I *am* all ears (which doesn't mean I'll just *agree* to any proposal, just that I'll *listen),* and I *do* want to make everyone happy, I just haven't yet come across a solution that would accomplish that, and if someone *has* to end up less than ideally happy, I'd like it to be the smallest possible group. > > > > >Second, the point of a compromise isn't to choose one side or the other, it's to satisfy as many people as possible, which most often involves making concessions to both sides. > > > > Yes, which is my goal here, to reach the solution that satisfies all sides as best as is possible. > > > > >You're picking one side and picking an extreme position for that side instead of moving towards the middle, which is the exact opposite of what you're claiming. > > > > No, I started in the middle and intend to try and keep the discussion focused there, rather than moving more toward the fringes. For example in the loot discussion, on one side we have "Nobody gets Envoy armor without completing the raids in their current form." On the other side we have "Everyone should be able to get the Envoy armor just from farming moas and stuff." The position I staked out was in the middle of the two extremes, "Envoy armor should be available from an easier version of raids, but still require hundreds of hours of active participation in that game mode." I see no reason to move *further* than that toward your own extreme position, I ceded plenty of ground right out of the gate in the name of simplicity. > > > > >>@Ohoni.6057 said: > > >>Apparently you think I have final say in what ANet does > > > > >Needs citation. > > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > >Has it ever occurred to you that your extreme position is actually making easy mode raids more unlikely and ruining it for those people who actually want to see fair easy mode raids? > > Way i see it it used to be: raids are for elitist and envoy is for them. > And you come here and say: raids should be for everyone and envoy too. > > I domt see a middle ground here. It would be middle ground then you would propose something for the raiders what they didnt have which you didnt. i disagree that envoy should be available to easy mode - just like all other content, each type of content has its own armor, for normal mode raids its envoy. For easy mode it should be different legendary armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamkiller.4315 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 Point 1) could be achieved with open world/fractal legendary armor, point 2) could be achieved with 20+ man version of raids with generic rewards. Both ideas have been floated around and I'm personally not just okay with but in favor of both (even though I view legendaries as something basically forever out of my reach) Also I said this last time but I'm not really a raider. I'm more of a fractal guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > > > Second, the point of a compromise isn't to choose one side or the other, it's to satisfy as many people as possible, which most often involves making concessions to both sides. > > > > > Indeed, that's the point of compromise. Remember however that while "your side" position is the current situation (raids 100% for you, 0% for me), mine would be easy mode alone (at best). Normal mode raids are purely for you, not for me. I still consider them to be something that's hurting this game. Thus, what i am talking about lately is already a compromise. A huge one, for me, considering that one of the big reasons why i even picked this game in the first place was because it _didn't_ have raids, and was supposed never to get in that direction. > > > > > So, if you're speaking about compromise, it's _your_ turn for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I already presented my compromise. Easy raids (everything cut to half) with no kp,li, or ascended drops. If you are interested in story this should be enough for you. > > > > > > > > Also i proposed ascended weapon(s)of your choice for killing every easy boss once > > > > > > meh ascended gear drops like sweetie as you know fine well and is not a meaningful reward considering wvw/spvp/other raids all offer legendary gear that has stat swaps - which should be no different here. > > > > Its not about the reward. Here are my points what easy raids should represent: > > 1) option to get into raids > > 2) option to experiance story without doing raids > > 3) option to prepare for specific mechanics > > 4) option to enjoy raids without the need for specific comp > > > > And what it shouldnt be: > > 1) content that is abused to farm > > 2) easy way for lazy players to get raid specific rewards > > > > re positives, ofc rewards is a factor, this is a mmorpg. Your first point is addressed with weekly lockouts. RE Lazy that's a well worn accusation made by raiders but If a player can happily enjoy and farm content for a year in wvw then this should be no different, i.e why on earth would you NOT give long term goals to easy mode raiders. > I would. But not the same as normal raids Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > Its not about the reward. Here are my points what easy raids should represent: > > 1) option to get into raids > > 2) option to experiance story without doing raids > > 3) option to prepare for specific mechanics > > 4) option to enjoy raids without the need for specific comp > > > > And what it shouldnt be: > > 1) content that is abused to farm > > 2) easy way for lazy players to get raid specific rewards > > And here are my points (in order of importance): > 1) wider accessibility to the endgame tier rewards > 2) greater accessibility to the content for the average player > 3) greater accessibility to raid rewards for the average player > As a compromise, i'm willing to not insist on point 3, but 1 and 2 are quite important to me. > > Notice that adding easy mode with rewards does not have to be the solution. Point 1 could be achieved by adding a different legendary armor set to PvE outside raids. Point 2 by easy mode with generic rewards. Point 3 by completely different acquisition methods (pvp/wvw reward tracks would be satisfactory for me, but a pve method would be preferable). All 3 points could also be achieved by just nerfing the normal mode, of course. > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > Well one reason i can think of is because you want them to move on to the normal mode. > You might want that, but for me that's not a primary goal (or even _any_ goal). I see no problem if the solution fulfills that function, and i am wiling to consider and include it in my arguments if it gets me what i want, but survival of raids is not really my personal concern. > > I am totaly for point 1 and 2 and i would be ok with point 3. I get that some players dont value same things as i do in this game. On the other hand I dont want to give kills for free. Generaly if player comes to any raid he should be trying to do his best. That is my goal and my idea what raids are about. Example of easymode raid might be VG where teleports daze instead of teleport. It is much easier but still it require some effort (you have to go to greens) I would prefer if instead of envoy armor easy raids had diferent unique reward (like legendary amulet). Idealy there would be no need for easy/normal split but i just dont know how to make raids more casual-friendly without lovwring dificulty for those that raid now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > > > > Second, the point of a compromise isn't to choose one side or the other, it's to satisfy as many people as possible, which most often involves making concessions to both sides. > > > > > > Indeed, that's the point of compromise. Remember however that while "your side" position is the current situation (raids 100% for you, 0% for me), mine would be easy mode alone (at best). Normal mode raids are purely for you, not for me. I still consider them to be something that's hurting this game. Thus, what i am talking about lately is already a compromise. A huge one, for me, considering that one of the big reasons why i even picked this game in the first place was because it _didn't_ have raids, and was supposed never to get in that direction. > > > > > > So, if you're speaking about compromise, it's _your_ turn for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I already presented my compromise. Easy raids (everything cut to half) with no kp,li, or ascended drops. If you are interested in story this should be enough for you. > > > > > > > > > > Also i proposed ascended weapon(s)of your choice for killing every easy boss once > > > > > > > > meh ascended gear drops like sweetie as you know fine well and is not a meaningful reward considering wvw/spvp/other raids all offer legendary gear that has stat swaps - which should be no different here. > > > > > > Its not about the reward. Here are my points what easy raids should represent: > > > 1) option to get into raids > > > 2) option to experiance story without doing raids > > > 3) option to prepare for specific mechanics > > > 4) option to enjoy raids without the need for specific comp > > > > > > And what it shouldnt be: > > > 1) content that is abused to farm > > > 2) easy way for lazy players to get raid specific rewards > > > > > > > re positives, ofc rewards is a factor, this is a mmorpg. Your first point is addressed with weekly lockouts. RE Lazy that's a well worn accusation made by raiders but If a player can happily enjoy and farm content for a year in wvw then this should be no different, i.e why on earth would you NOT give long term goals to easy mode raiders. > > > > I would. But not the same as normal raids neither would I, it has to be different legendary armor from normal, so normal mode gear remains exclusive and unique for existing raiders. In effect this gives everyone 2 sets of legendary armor to go for, win win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > > > > > Second, the point of a compromise isn't to choose one side or the other, it's to satisfy as many people as possible, which most often involves making concessions to both sides. > > > > > > > Indeed, that's the point of compromise. Remember however that while "your side" position is the current situation (raids 100% for you, 0% for me), mine would be easy mode alone (at best). Normal mode raids are purely for you, not for me. I still consider them to be something that's hurting this game. Thus, what i am talking about lately is already a compromise. A huge one, for me, considering that one of the big reasons why i even picked this game in the first place was because it _didn't_ have raids, and was supposed never to get in that direction. > > > > > > > So, if you're speaking about compromise, it's _your_ turn for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I already presented my compromise. Easy raids (everything cut to half) with no kp,li, or ascended drops. If you are interested in story this should be enough for you. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also i proposed ascended weapon(s)of your choice for killing every easy boss once > > > > > > > > > > meh ascended gear drops like sweetie as you know fine well and is not a meaningful reward considering wvw/spvp/other raids all offer legendary gear that has stat swaps - which should be no different here. > > > > > > > > Its not about the reward. Here are my points what easy raids should represent: > > > > 1) option to get into raids > > > > 2) option to experiance story without doing raids > > > > 3) option to prepare for specific mechanics > > > > 4) option to enjoy raids without the need for specific comp > > > > > > > > And what it shouldnt be: > > > > 1) content that is abused to farm > > > > 2) easy way for lazy players to get raid specific rewards > > > > > > > > > > re positives, ofc rewards is a factor, this is a mmorpg. Your first point is addressed with weekly lockouts. RE Lazy that's a well worn accusation made by raiders but If a player can happily enjoy and farm content for a year in wvw then this should be no different, i.e why on earth would you NOT give long term goals to easy mode raiders. > > > > > > > I would. But not the same as normal raids > > neither would I, it has to be different legendary armor from normal, so normal mode gear remains exclusive and unique for existing raiders. In effect this gives everyone 2 sets of legendary armor to go for, win win. Eventually the reasonable positions converge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamkiller.4315 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > > > > > > Second, the point of a compromise isn't to choose one side or the other, it's to satisfy as many people as possible, which most often involves making concessions to both sides. > > > > > > > > Indeed, that's the point of compromise. Remember however that while "your side" position is the current situation (raids 100% for you, 0% for me), mine would be easy mode alone (at best). Normal mode raids are purely for you, not for me. I still consider them to be something that's hurting this game. Thus, what i am talking about lately is already a compromise. A huge one, for me, considering that one of the big reasons why i even picked this game in the first place was because it _didn't_ have raids, and was supposed never to get in that direction. > > > > > > > > So, if you're speaking about compromise, it's _your_ turn for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I already presented my compromise. Easy raids (everything cut to half) with no kp,li, or ascended drops. If you are interested in story this should be enough for you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also i proposed ascended weapon(s)of your choice for killing every easy boss once > > > > > > > > > > > > meh ascended gear drops like sweetie as you know fine well and is not a meaningful reward considering wvw/spvp/other raids all offer legendary gear that has stat swaps - which should be no different here. > > > > > > > > > > Its not about the reward. Here are my points what easy raids should represent: > > > > > 1) option to get into raids > > > > > 2) option to experiance story without doing raids > > > > > 3) option to prepare for specific mechanics > > > > > 4) option to enjoy raids without the need for specific comp > > > > > > > > > > And what it shouldnt be: > > > > > 1) content that is abused to farm > > > > > 2) easy way for lazy players to get raid specific rewards > > > > > > > > > > > > > re positives, ofc rewards is a factor, this is a mmorpg. Your first point is addressed with weekly lockouts. RE Lazy that's a well worn accusation made by raiders but If a player can happily enjoy and farm content for a year in wvw then this should be no different, i.e why on earth would you NOT give long term goals to easy mode raiders. > > > > > > > > > > I would. But not the same as normal raids > > > > neither would I, it has to be different legendary armor from normal, so normal mode gear remains exclusive and unique for existing raiders. In effect this gives everyone 2 sets of legendary armor to go for, win win. > > Eventually the reasonable positions converge. As long as Ohoni doesn't obtain envoy armor, it's never reasonable. He'll probably complain about dev time for the second set too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > > > > > Second, the point of a compromise isn't to choose one side or the other, it's to satisfy as many people as possible, which most often involves making concessions to both sides. > > > > > > > Indeed, that's the point of compromise. Remember however that while "your side" position is the current situation (raids 100% for you, 0% for me), mine would be easy mode alone (at best). Normal mode raids are purely for you, not for me. I still consider them to be something that's hurting this game. Thus, what i am talking about lately is already a compromise. A huge one, for me, considering that one of the big reasons why i even picked this game in the first place was because it _didn't_ have raids, and was supposed never to get in that direction. > > > > > > > So, if you're speaking about compromise, it's _your_ turn for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I already presented my compromise. Easy raids (everything cut to half) with no kp,li, or ascended drops. If you are interested in story this should be enough for you. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also i proposed ascended weapon(s)of your choice for killing every easy boss once > > > > > > > > > > meh ascended gear drops like sweetie as you know fine well and is not a meaningful reward considering wvw/spvp/other raids all offer legendary gear that has stat swaps - which should be no different here. > > > > > > > > Its not about the reward. Here are my points what easy raids should represent: > > > > 1) option to get into raids > > > > 2) option to experiance story without doing raids > > > > 3) option to prepare for specific mechanics > > > > 4) option to enjoy raids without the need for specific comp > > > > > > > > And what it shouldnt be: > > > > 1) content that is abused to farm > > > > 2) easy way for lazy players to get raid specific rewards > > > > > > > > > > re positives, ofc rewards is a factor, this is a mmorpg. Your first point is addressed with weekly lockouts. RE Lazy that's a well worn accusation made by raiders but If a player can happily enjoy and farm content for a year in wvw then this should be no different, i.e why on earth would you NOT give long term goals to easy mode raiders. > > > > > > > I would. But not the same as normal raids > > neither would I, it has to be different legendary armor from normal, so normal mode gear remains exclusive and unique for existing raiders. In effect this gives everyone 2 sets of legendary armor to go for, win win. Another raid-legendary-armor (though easy mode) would be nonsense. It would be better for the game to create a fractal/PoF-legendary armor just like raid-legendary-armor is a raid/HoT-armor. ...and tbh, the only problem about raids is accessibility. I mean, I'm raiding for approx. 6-7 weeks now, have 54 LI and killed everything from w1 till w4; the only thing that seperates me from the precursor-set are AmGems for the Crystalline Heart. Most encounters aren't that hard. Some requirements are just stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > > > > > > Second, the point of a compromise isn't to choose one side or the other, it's to satisfy as many people as possible, which most often involves making concessions to both sides. > > > > > > > > Indeed, that's the point of compromise. Remember however that while "your side" position is the current situation (raids 100% for you, 0% for me), mine would be easy mode alone (at best). Normal mode raids are purely for you, not for me. I still consider them to be something that's hurting this game. Thus, what i am talking about lately is already a compromise. A huge one, for me, considering that one of the big reasons why i even picked this game in the first place was because it _didn't_ have raids, and was supposed never to get in that direction. > > > > > > > > So, if you're speaking about compromise, it's _your_ turn for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I already presented my compromise. Easy raids (everything cut to half) with no kp,li, or ascended drops. If you are interested in story this should be enough for you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also i proposed ascended weapon(s)of your choice for killing every easy boss once > > > > > > > > > > > > meh ascended gear drops like sweetie as you know fine well and is not a meaningful reward considering wvw/spvp/other raids all offer legendary gear that has stat swaps - which should be no different here. > > > > > > > > > > Its not about the reward. Here are my points what easy raids should represent: > > > > > 1) option to get into raids > > > > > 2) option to experiance story without doing raids > > > > > 3) option to prepare for specific mechanics > > > > > 4) option to enjoy raids without the need for specific comp > > > > > > > > > > And what it shouldnt be: > > > > > 1) content that is abused to farm > > > > > 2) easy way for lazy players to get raid specific rewards > > > > > > > > > > > > > re positives, ofc rewards is a factor, this is a mmorpg. Your first point is addressed with weekly lockouts. RE Lazy that's a well worn accusation made by raiders but If a player can happily enjoy and farm content for a year in wvw then this should be no different, i.e why on earth would you NOT give long term goals to easy mode raiders. > > > > > > > > > > I would. But not the same as normal raids > > > > neither would I, it has to be different legendary armor from normal, so normal mode gear remains exclusive and unique for existing raiders. In effect this gives everyone 2 sets of legendary armor to go for, win win. > > Eventually the reasonable positions converge. i've said that since day 1, it makes perfect sense that raiders existing rewards should remain tied uniquely to normal raids Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > > > > > > Second, the point of a compromise isn't to choose one side or the other, it's to satisfy as many people as possible, which most often involves making concessions to both sides. > > > > > > > > Indeed, that's the point of compromise. Remember however that while "your side" position is the current situation (raids 100% for you, 0% for me), mine would be easy mode alone (at best). Normal mode raids are purely for you, not for me. I still consider them to be something that's hurting this game. Thus, what i am talking about lately is already a compromise. A huge one, for me, considering that one of the big reasons why i even picked this game in the first place was because it _didn't_ have raids, and was supposed never to get in that direction. > > > > > > > > So, if you're speaking about compromise, it's _your_ turn for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I already presented my compromise. Easy raids (everything cut to half) with no kp,li, or ascended drops. If you are interested in story this should be enough for you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also i proposed ascended weapon(s)of your choice for killing every easy boss once > > > > > > > > > > > > meh ascended gear drops like sweetie as you know fine well and is not a meaningful reward considering wvw/spvp/other raids all offer legendary gear that has stat swaps - which should be no different here. > > > > > > > > > > Its not about the reward. Here are my points what easy raids should represent: > > > > > 1) option to get into raids > > > > > 2) option to experiance story without doing raids > > > > > 3) option to prepare for specific mechanics > > > > > 4) option to enjoy raids without the need for specific comp > > > > > > > > > > And what it shouldnt be: > > > > > 1) content that is abused to farm > > > > > 2) easy way for lazy players to get raid specific rewards > > > > > > > > > > > > > re positives, ofc rewards is a factor, this is a mmorpg. Your first point is addressed with weekly lockouts. RE Lazy that's a well worn accusation made by raiders but If a player can happily enjoy and farm content for a year in wvw then this should be no different, i.e why on earth would you NOT give long term goals to easy mode raiders. > > > > > > > > > > I would. But not the same as normal raids > > > > neither would I, it has to be different legendary armor from normal, so normal mode gear remains exclusive and unique for existing raiders. In effect this gives everyone 2 sets of legendary armor to go for, win win. > > Another raid-legendary-armor (though easy mode) would be nonsense. It would be better for the game to create a fractal/PoF-legendary armor just like raid-legendary-armor is a raid/HoT-armor. > > ...and tbh, the only problem about raids is accessibility. I mean, I'm raiding for approx. 6-7 weeks now, have 54 LI and killed everything from w1 till w4; the only thing that seperates me from the precursor-set are AmGems for the Crystalline Heart. Most encounters aren't that hard. Some requirements are just stupid. Its not 'nonsense' just as wvw and spvp legendary gear is there for long term goals, so should there be for easier raids. People don't want to play existing raids, they have a certain gameplay style that is really badly dated for many (repeat pattern/wipe/repeat pattern/wipe) The legendary gear doesn't even need to be animated like envoy, its just needs stat swap to feel valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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