Please Overhaul Raids.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

> @"Bakeneko.5826" said:

> > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > Of course it's rational to ask for changes that you think would improve the game. Dozens of people do so on these forums every day. Why wouldn't it be?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What will you do if they dont add an easy way to get envoy armor? What would your time frame look like to get what you're looking for?

> > > > >

> > > > > I'll continue to play until I get burned out on the game. Hasn't happened yet, but will likely happen eventually. I expect it to take a while to get the armor even if they opened a path tomorrow. Ideally of course it would take about as long as the current method, but as a compromise to those who don't want their efforts "cheapened" I've indicated that three times as long would be reasonable. I don't mind the long game.

> > > >

> > > > How about the collection that is required? Would that need to be done as well?

> > >

> > > The specifics are up to what would be easiest for ANet to implement. Obviously it can't require completing all the bosses on normal mode, because that goes against the spirit of the thing. On the other hand, allowing easy mode clears to count for the normal achievements would allow some players to get those clears, and then use the simpler hard mode maps to farm Li, and shortcut the process. I think perhaps they would need a parallel process, like a new set of achievements that unlocks the same reward checkpoints, but has different requirements, like instead of beating each boss once, you'd need to beat them 10+ times to get the equivalent clear.

> > >

> > > This is one of the more complicated parts to get just right.

> > >

> > > >Would mechanics need to be followed in an easy mode to say, not miss the green circles on cairn?

> > >

> > > There's been some discussion of the best option here. My personal stance is that the mechanics should all remain in, but where necessary their damage would be trimmed back, so that insta-kill attacks would no longer be quite so deadly. Clearing the mechanics completely would be just as skillful as in the normal mode, but failing to do so would not be so catastrophic to the attempt. It would still be possibly to die to multiple mechanics catching up to you, but making one or two mistakes would not be likely to finish you off, and a decent team would stand a good chance of getting you back on your feet.

> >

> > What about people who still think the easy mode is too hard and too stressful? What if you also feel it's still too hard? It still may change from group to group as some groups would trivialize the content and other groups would fail at even the simplest mechanic. That would worry me because you would still have stress to perform in any team environment with a possibility of failure. If you could earn rewards from this mode what is stopping the raiders from coming in and hijacking the mode for easy rewards? You still may end up not enjoying this idea.

>

> Here's my idea, make easy mode, with bosses having 50% of orginal HP, one less mechanical skill, and give 1 LI shard per cleared wing (whole wing) and 4 shards make one LI. Achievements in easy mode disabled. Very slow to farm, not possible to advance towards legendary armors with achievements and works as training mode

 

That sounds like a fair trade honestly. I like that idea. Because honestly, the question should not be how to get legendary armor easier. The question should be how can we grow the raiding scene using game features. If this were implemented it may provide a launching point into the real content.

 

As a long time raider in wow I have zero complaints about an easy mode being added. However in wow you can't get mythic raid gear from world quests so obviously I have a bias towards growing the community and not giving an opt out option while also providing the raid rewards.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> It also isn't rational to require special attitude instead of playing by the same rules everyone else does, but it doesn't stop you from doing it.

It didn't stop some people from asking for raids until Anet finally caved in either. Are you saying those people were irrational?

 

[Zalavaaris.5329]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > It also isn't rational to require special attitude instead of playing by the same rules everyone else does, but it doesn't stop you from doing it.

> It didn't stop some people from asking for raids until Anet finally caved in either. Are you saying those people were irrational?

>

 

To be fair, how many mmos have end game raiding content? How many of those give the high end raid gear out in easy modes without some sort of visual downgrade from the "real deal"?

[nia.4725]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > It also isn't rational to require special attitude instead of playing by the same rules everyone else does, but it doesn't stop you from doing it.

> It didn't stop some people from asking for raids until Anet finally caved in either. Are you saying those people were irrational?

>

 

1. Asking anet to develop new content which was nonexistant in GW2

2. Asking anet to develop an alternative mode to the content already in GW2

 

How are those things comparable?

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > It also isn't rational to require special attitude instead of playing by the same rules everyone else does, but it doesn't stop you from doing it.

> > It didn't stop some people from asking for raids until Anet finally caved in either. Are you saying those people were irrational?

> >

>

> To be fair, how many mmos have end game raiding content? How many of those give the high end raid gear out in easy modes without some sort of visual downgrade from the "real deal"?

In how many that gear becomes easily available when the next expac rolls out (and sometimes even before)?

 

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > It also isn't rational to require special attitude instead of playing by the same rules everyone else does, but it doesn't stop you from doing it.

> > It didn't stop some people from asking for raids until Anet finally caved in either. Are you saying those people were irrational?

> >

>

> 1. Asking anet to develop new content which was nonexistant in GW2

> 2. Asking anet to develop an alternative mode to the content already in GW2

>

> How are those things comparable?

When we judge that by standarts of Feanor's quote? No difference whatsoever.

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > It also isn't rational to require special attitude instead of playing by the same rules everyone else does, but it doesn't stop you from doing it.

> > > It didn't stop some people from asking for raids until Anet finally caved in either. Are you saying those people were irrational?

> > >

> >

> > 1. Asking anet to develop new content which was nonexistant in GW2

> > 2. Asking anet to develop an alternative mode to the content already in GW2

> >

> > How are those things comparable?

> When we judge that by standarts of Feanor's quote? No difference whatsoever.

>

 

I beg to differ.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > It also isn't rational to require special attitude instead of playing by the same rules everyone else does, but it doesn't stop you from doing it.

> > > It didn't stop some people from asking for raids until Anet finally caved in either. Are you saying those people were irrational?

> > >

> >

> > To be fair, how many mmos have end game raiding content? How many of those give the high end raid gear out in easy modes without some sort of visual downgrade from the "real deal"?

> In how many that gear becomes easily available when the next expac rolls out (and sometimes even before)?

>

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > It also isn't rational to require special attitude instead of playing by the same rules everyone else does, but it doesn't stop you from doing it.

> > > It didn't stop some people from asking for raids until Anet finally caved in either. Are you saying those people were irrational?

> > >

> >

> > 1. Asking anet to develop new content which was nonexistant in GW2

> > 2. Asking anet to develop an alternative mode to the content already in GW2

> >

> > How are those things comparable?

> When we judge that by standarts of Feanor's quote? No difference whatsoever.

>

 

I'm glad you brought that up. Guild wars 2 does not have a gear treadmill. The content will always be "current" with regards to character strength. You can always wipe. When we went from HoT to PoF people did not suddenly trivialize the raid content as people do in other mmos. So there will not be a time where people can easily go through and get the gear. Also consider that in gear treadmill game, the prestige of visuals are based on the current tier. Nobody cares about old content in other mmos. Why is that? Because it is easy and you literally one shot everything. Some sets are not like that like the challenge mode sets in WoW. The legendary armor in gw2 is like that and will stand the test of time requiring the skill and challenge on year 5 as on day 1.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> I'm glad you brought that up. Guild wars 2 does not have a gear treadmill. The content will always be "current" with regards to character strength. You can always wipe. When we went from HoT to PoF people did not suddenly trivialize the raid content as people do in other mmos. So there will not be a time where people can easily go through and get the gear. Also consider that in gear treadmill game, the prestige of visuals are based on the current tier. Nobody cares about old content in other mmos. Why is that? Because it is easy and you literally one shot everything. Some sets are not like that like the challenge mode sets in WoW. The legendary armor in gw2 is like that and will stand the test of time requiring the skill and challenge on year 5 as on day 1.

 

So, GW2 is _not_ like all those raid heavy MMOs you brought up before, and there was no point bringing them up earlier. Glad this is cleaned up.

 

 

[Zalavaaris.5329]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > I'm glad you brought that up. Guild wars 2 does not have a gear treadmill. The content will always be "current" with regards to character strength. You can always wipe. When we went from HoT to PoF people did not suddenly trivialize the raid content as people do in other mmos. So there will not be a time where people can easily go through and get the gear. Also consider that in gear treadmill game, the prestige of visuals are based on the current tier. Nobody cares about old content in other mmos. Why is that? Because it is easy and you literally one shot everything. Some sets are not like that like the challenge mode sets in WoW. The legendary armor in gw2 is like that and will stand the test of time requiring the skill and challenge on year 5 as on day 1.

>

> So, GW2 is _not_ like all those raid heavy MMOs you brought up before, and there was no point bringing them up earlier. Glad this is cleaned up.

>

>

 

That is an inaccurate statement. Raids in general are a requirement in the genre of mmos, a gear treadmill is not. That was a straw man but I commend the attempt.

 

Now with that said, I also feel multiple difficulty modes are also a requirement for current day mmo raiding. The reward structure should reflect the difficulty as it does in these other games (including current gw2 reward model) as well.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > I'm glad you brought that up. Guild wars 2 does not have a gear treadmill. The content will always be "current" with regards to character strength. You can always wipe. When we went from HoT to PoF people did not suddenly trivialize the raid content as people do in other mmos. So there will not be a time where people can easily go through and get the gear. Also consider that in gear treadmill game, the prestige of visuals are based on the current tier. Nobody cares about old content in other mmos. Why is that? Because it is easy and you literally one shot everything. Some sets are not like that like the challenge mode sets in WoW. The legendary armor in gw2 is like that and will stand the test of time requiring the skill and challenge on year 5 as on day 1.

>

> So, GW2 is _not_ like all those raid heavy MMOs you brought up before, and there was no point bringing them up earlier. Glad this is cleaned up.

>

>

 

Gw2 isn't even raid centric. It had 1 shiny reward in it.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> That is an inaccurate statement. Raids in general are a requirement in the genre of mmos, a gear treadmill is not. That was a straw man but I commend the attempt.

Actually, neither are a requirement. Gw2 was doing just fine before raids were introduced, and it was no less of a MMORPG for it.

Both are just a tradition going back to "WoW did it, and WoW was succesful, so it must be good"

 

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> >

> > So, GW2 is _not_ like all those raid heavy MMOs you brought up before, and there was no point bringing them up earlier. Glad this is cleaned up.

> >

>

> Gw2 isn't even raid centric. It had 1 shiny reward in it.

Yes, exactly my point. It is a very different game.

 

In a raid centric game it makes sense to lock the best rewards behind raids, as they are what everyone is expected to be doing and the whole game revolves about them. In gw2 that reason _does not exist_.

 

 

 

[Zalavaaris.5329]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > That is an inaccurate statement. Raids in general are a requirement in the genre of mmos, a gear treadmill is not. That was a straw man but I commend the attempt.

> Actually, neither are a requirement. Gw2 was doing just fine before raids were introduced, and it was no less of a MMORPG for it.

> Both are just a tradition going back to "WoW did it, and WoW was succesful, so it must be good"

>

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > >

> > > So, GW2 is _not_ like all those raid heavy MMOs you brought up before, and there was no point bringing them up earlier. Glad this is cleaned up.

> > >

> >

> > Gw2 isn't even raid centric. It had 1 shiny reward in it.

> Yes, exactly my point. It is a very different game.

>

> In a raid centric game it makes sense to lock the best rewards behind raids, as they are what everyone is expected to be doing and the whole game revolves about them. In gw2 that reason _does not exist_.

>

>

>

 

It is expected of an mmo to have end game raiding. Notice gw2 has it. There is a reason. The consumers require it. They didnt add raids out of the goodness of their hearts. The market drives these decisions. If gw2 truly didnt need raids they wouldn't be here. And for the record, WoW wasnt the only one with successful raids. It is an industry standard.

 

Also, you misspoke. The best rewards aren't locked behind raids. They are locked behind the hardest content. In WoW you need to raid on the highest difficulty or compete in pvp at a very high level. Gw2 is no different.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> It is expected of an mmo to have end game raiding. Notice gw2 has it.

It's also expected of an MMO to have gear progression. Notice GW2 _doesn't_ have it. Both expectations come not from any real requirement for the genre, but merely from tradition - it so just happens that majority of the games on market have both. There's nothing more to it. Neither of those two features is really important for the genre.

 

> @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> There is a reason. The consumers require it.

As i mentioned, GW2 was doing just fine without raids, which proves they're absolutely not necessary. Consumers no more require raids than they require, say, open world pvp. Or LFR.

 

> @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> Also, you misspoke. The best rewards aren't locked behind raids. They are locked behind the hardest content. In WoW you need to raid on the highest difficulty or compete in pvp at a very high level. Gw2 is no different.

Again, it makes sense only in a game that revolves about this. Gw2 is _not_ that kind of game. Raids are not _the_ endgame. Merely _an_ endgame - one of many. And one that is not meant for the majority of players. It's just an endgame meant for a small subsection of the community.

 

 

[Zalavaaris.5329]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > It is expected of an mmo to have end game raiding. Notice gw2 has it.

> It's also expected of an MMO to have gear progression. Notice GW2 _doesn't_ have it. Both expectations come not from any real requirement for the genre, but merely from tradition - it so just happens that majority of the games on market have both. There's nothing more to it. Neither of those two features is really important for the genre.

>

> > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > There is a reason. The consumers require it.

> As i mentioned, GW2 was doing just fine without raids, which proves they're absolutely not necessary. Consumers no more require raids than they require, say, open world pvp. Or LFR.

>

> > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > Also, you misspoke. The best rewards aren't locked behind raids. They are locked behind the hardest content. In WoW you need to raid on the highest difficulty or compete in pvp at a very high level. Gw2 is no different.

> Again, it makes sense only in a game that revolves about this. Gw2 is _not_ that kind of game. Raids are not _the_ endgame. Merely _an_ endgame - one of many. And one that is not meant for the majority of players. It's just an endgame meant for a small subsection of the community.

>

>

 

You havent provided any data for your claims about what just fine is. The fact of the matter is that if people want legendary armor they need to raid in it's current form. They wont be giving the highest prestige reward in the game to people playing an easymode that wont let them wipe. It wont happen. It's done. There may be another raid difficulty added though. No arguing that because I truly think that is important to have. But not the top tier rewards. Maybe next people will want an easy mode dhuum cm to get the title too.

[Teamkiller.4315]

> @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > It is expected of an mmo to have end game raiding. Notice gw2 has it.

> > It's also expected of an MMO to have gear progression. Notice GW2 _doesn't_ have it. Both expectations come not from any real requirement for the genre, but merely from tradition - it so just happens that majority of the games on market have both. There's nothing more to it. Neither of those two features is really important for the genre.

> >

> > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > There is a reason. The consumers require it.

> > As i mentioned, GW2 was doing just fine without raids, which proves they're absolutely not necessary. Consumers no more require raids than they require, say, open world pvp. Or LFR.

> >

> > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > Also, you misspoke. The best rewards aren't locked behind raids. They are locked behind the hardest content. In WoW you need to raid on the highest difficulty or compete in pvp at a very high level. Gw2 is no different.

> > Again, it makes sense only in a game that revolves about this. Gw2 is _not_ that kind of game. Raids are not _the_ endgame. Merely _an_ endgame - one of many. And one that is not meant for the majority of players. It's just an endgame meant for a small subsection of the community.

> >

> >

>

> You havent provided any data for your claims about what just fine is. The fact of the matter is that if people want legendary armor they need to raid in it's current form. They wont be giving the highest prestige reward in the game to people playing an easymode that wont let them wipe. It wont happen. It's done. There may be another raid difficulty added though. No arguing that because I truly think that is important to have. But not the top tier rewards. Maybe next people will want an easy mode dhuum cm to get the title too.

 

Easy mode dhuum challenge mode?

 

"Whimper in the Void"

[Zalavaaris.5329]

> @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > > It is expected of an mmo to have end game raiding. Notice gw2 has it.

> > > It's also expected of an MMO to have gear progression. Notice GW2 _doesn't_ have it. Both expectations come not from any real requirement for the genre, but merely from tradition - it so just happens that majority of the games on market have both. There's nothing more to it. Neither of those two features is really important for the genre.

> > >

> > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > > There is a reason. The consumers require it.

> > > As i mentioned, GW2 was doing just fine without raids, which proves they're absolutely not necessary. Consumers no more require raids than they require, say, open world pvp. Or LFR.

> > >

> > > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > > Also, you misspoke. The best rewards aren't locked behind raids. They are locked behind the hardest content. In WoW you need to raid on the highest difficulty or compete in pvp at a very high level. Gw2 is no different.

> > > Again, it makes sense only in a game that revolves about this. Gw2 is _not_ that kind of game. Raids are not _the_ endgame. Merely _an_ endgame - one of many. And one that is not meant for the majority of players. It's just an endgame meant for a small subsection of the community.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > You havent provided any data for your claims about what just fine is. The fact of the matter is that if people want legendary armor they need to raid in it's current form. They wont be giving the highest prestige reward in the game to people playing an easymode that wont let them wipe. It wont happen. It's done. There may be another raid difficulty added though. No arguing that because I truly think that is important to have. But not the top tier rewards. Maybe next people will want an easy mode dhuum cm to get the title too.

>

> Easy mode dhuum challenge mode?

>

> "Whimper in the Void"

 

That title should actually be called "I'm too young to die". I hope someone gets that haha

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > That is an inaccurate statement. Raids in general are a requirement in the genre of mmos, a gear treadmill is not. That was a straw man but I commend the attempt.

> Actually, neither are a requirement. Gw2 was doing just fine before raids were introduced, and it was no less of a MMORPG for it.

> Both are just a tradition going back to "WoW did it, and WoW was succesful, so it must be good"

>

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > >

> > > So, GW2 is _not_ like all those raid heavy MMOs you brought up before, and there was no point bringing them up earlier. Glad this is cleaned up.

> > >

> >

> > Gw2 isn't even raid centric. It had 1 shiny reward in it.

> Yes, exactly my point. It is a very different game.

>

> In a raid centric game it makes sense to lock the best rewards behind raids, as they are what everyone is expected to be doing and the whole game revolves about them. In gw2 that reason _does not exist_.

>

>

>

 

But common sense and fairness do.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

I just want two questions answered. Today, how many successful mmos do not have raids? Out of the successful mmos who do have raiding, how many give the highest prestige rewards in an easy mode that anyone can get?

 

I think that says everything I'd need to.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > >Nothing you've said has been reasonable.

> >

> > Then why not present arguments against what I *said,* rather than having to *make up* positions for you to be outraged over?

> >

> > >You want the rewards from raiding on an easier difficulty. That's fantasy and isn't going to happen.

> >

> > Why not? You can get dungeon rewards from PvP, you can get LS rewards by spending log-in laurels, there's plenty of precedent for once-exclusive rewards being made available via alternate, often easier methods.

> >

> > >No sane developer is going to even remotely consider it.

> >

> > Then nobody needs you pointing that out. If there's no chance of them doing it, then there's nothing for you for worry about.

> >

> > >Even if on the off chance they give in and create an easy mode it will have it's own subsection with its own achievements which in no way allow you to work toward legendary armor.

> >

> > Maybe, but again, that would only be half a solution, and they would need to work out a *completely different* solution for how to get the Envoy armor to people who don't raid. It just seems like a wasted opportunity to me, it's like saying "well, we have all this food that'll go to waste if we don't cook it, and we have all those hungry people over there, so. . . let's cook up the food and then throw it in the trash, and *then* order take-out for all those hungry people!"

> >

> > >So you want a mid ground, that's your mid ground. Suggesting anything else is unreasonable which is why people keep telling you such. It's why people showcase your own position as absurd and why we keep using equally ludicrous analogies because you refuse to see how bad your proposal is but somehow when we take it from 10 to 11 you suddenly fight back.

> >

> > Well see, nobody *is* showcasing *my* positions as absurd. They *claim* that my position is absurd, but when pushed to back up that claim, to make a reasonable case as to *why* my position is "so absurd," the best they can do is to make up completely *new* positions for me to hold, and then claim that *those* are absurd. Well I'm sorry, but I have no control over not-me. If I were as wrong as you insist I am, then you could argue back against *me,* rather than against some abstract boogeyman.

>

> I agree on easy mode but not on the reward decrease hard should be enjoyed by those who like doing it but rewards should be same for both to prevent people feeling bad

 

Personally, I agree, but I'm willing to compromise with the existing raiders on this one.

 

> @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> You're not looking for changes that would improve the game, otherwise why else would so many easy raid proponents label you as their side's extremist? Nah, you're looking for changes that would improve the game for pretty much only _you_

 

Every discussion has someone on the extreme end of it, that doesn't make them any more wrong than a more moderate position. I think it's ridiculous to argue that this is a change that would only benefit me, when it would expand the raid mode and Envoy armor to tens of thousands of other players.

 

> @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> What about people who still think the easy mode is too hard and too stressful? What if you also feel it's still too hard?

 

It should be balanced so that the number of those people would be fairly minimal. Right now, by all indications, the overwhelming majority of players feel that raids are too difficult to be worth bothering. Assuming they do even a halfway decent job of attempting an easy mode, it should become accessible to the overwhelming majority of players. Would there be some that would still find it too difficult? Possibly, but if so they would struggle with pretty much any aspect of the game, so how did they even reach raids in the first place? In any case, since the overall difficulty is down, and raids involve ten people, then unless the group was made up primarily of these players, it would still likely succeed.

 

>If you could earn rewards from this mode what is stopping the raiders from coming in and hijacking the mode for easy rewards?

 

They're welcome to do so, but I doubt there would be any point to it, since the rewards would still be less than in normal mode.

 

>You still may end up not enjoying this idea.

 

Not if it's done at all well. The only way that I could possibly end up not enjoying this idea is if ANet for some reason creates a deliberately troll version of the mode that goes out of its way to pretend to be useful while being deliberately non-functional. I just don't see them doing that.

 

> @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > @"Bakeneko.5826" said:

> > Here's my idea, make easy mode, with bosses having 50% of orginal HP, one less mechanical skill, and give 1 LI shard per cleared wing (whole wing) and 4 shards make one LI. Achievements in easy mode disabled. Very slow to farm, not possible to advance towards legendary armors with achievements and works as training mode

>

> That sounds like a fair trade honestly. I like that idea. Because honestly, the question should not be how to get legendary armor easier. The question should be how can we grow the raiding scene using game features. If this were implemented it may provide a launching point into the real content.

 

I do not want a mode that only exists as a "stepping stone" into "the *real* raids." I want a mode that IS "the real raids," just easier. I want it to be the last stop for players who have no interest in every doing normal mode raids, not just some sort of "training camp." It needs to provide everything a player would ever want out of raids, *unless* they actually *want* the added challenge that the normal mode offers.

 

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > It also isn't rational to require special attitude instead of playing by the same rules everyone else does, but it doesn't stop you from doing it.

> > It didn't stop some people from asking for raids until Anet finally caved in either. Are you saying those people were irrational?

> >

>

> 1. Asking anet to develop new content which was nonexistant in GW2

> 2. Asking anet to develop an alternative mode to the content already in GW2

>

> How are those things comparable?

 

Agreed, asking for raids in the first place was obviously a much bigger and less reasonable request.

 

> @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> I'm glad you brought that up. Guild wars 2 does not have a gear treadmill. The content will always be "current" with regards to character strength. You can always wipe. When we went from HoT to PoF people did not suddenly trivialize the raid content as people do in other mmos. So there will not be a time where people can easily go through and get the gear. Also consider that in gear treadmill game, the prestige of visuals are based on the current tier. Nobody cares about old content in other mmos. Why is that? Because it is easy and you literally one shot everything. Some sets are not like that like the challenge mode sets in WoW. The legendary armor in gw2 is like that and will stand the test of time requiring the skill and challenge on year 5 as on day 1.

 

Yes, which is part of the reason why easy mode is needed. If this was a game like WoW, then by today, two years after Wing 1 was released, I could roll in there using PoF green and blue drops, and crush the place, it would already *be* easy mode. I could just sweep up the Envoy armor no problem. GW2 does not currently have that mechanism, which is why they need some alternate method for earning those skins.

 

> @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> That is an inaccurate statement. Raids in general are a requirement in the genre of mmos, a gear treadmill is not. That was a straw man but I commend the attempt.

 

There is nothing "required" about having raids in an MMO. Many do, many also have dragons, that does not mean dragons are a requirement. GW2 didn't have raids for its first three years, and was better off for it.

 

> @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> I just want two questions answered. Today, how many successful mmos do not have raids? Out of the successful mmos who do have raiding, how many give the highest prestige rewards in an easy mode that anyone can get?

>

> I think that says everything I'd need to.

 

How many successful MMOs have kitten collecting? Just because other MMOs do something doesn't mean that it's the best thing for GW2. If everyone else jumps off a cliff, that doesn't mean you need to follow.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

That wasnt an answer to my questions. Which successful mmos do not have end game raiding and out of the ones that do, which give the highest prestige awards in an easy mode version?

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Real life isn't a game. In real life you get paid to perform a useful function, and the amount you're paid depends on the usefulness of that function.

 

That really made me cringe... _hard_.

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> That wasnt an answer to my questions. Which successful mmos do not have end game raiding and out of the ones that do, which give the highest prestige awards in an easy mode version?

 

I don't know enough about the MMO market to answer that question, my point was that it doesn't matter, this is not those other games, and shouldn't be.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > That wasnt an answer to my questions. Which successful mmos do not have end game raiding and out of the ones that do, which give the highest prestige awards in an easy mode version?

>

> I don't know enough about the MMO market to answer that question, my point was that it doesn't matter, this is not those other games, and shouldn't be.

 

Thank you

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > > That wasnt an answer to my questions. Which successful mmos do not have end game raiding and out of the ones that do, which give the highest prestige awards in an easy mode version?

> >

> > I don't know enough about the MMO market to answer that question, my point was that it doesn't matter, this is not those other games, and shouldn't be.

>

> Thank you

 

Np. I have a question too, which successful MMOs that *do* have endgame raiding do *not* have gear progression that trivializes older raids over time?

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> That wasnt an answer to my questions. Which successful mmos do not have end game raiding and out of the ones that do, which give the highest prestige awards in an easy mode version?

Up until raid introduction, that would have been gw2. And it's not any more succesful now than it was then.

 

I'd also like to point out that the _unsuccesful_ major title MMOS of the last decade also had endgame raiding and exclusive rewards locked behind it. So, i wouldn't treat it as a succesful mechanic. Merely a common one.

 

The only reason why succesful MMOs now share a set of common features is because when WoW came and made it big, it homogenized the market and squeezed all the originality out of it. Before that there were other games that pursued different paths. And, ironically, the main reason why WoW won then was not due to raids, but for a completely opposite reason - because it was _more casual_ than competitors.

 

It's sad that when nowadays some developer tries to make something original, they get shouted down because "it's not MMORPG" by players that got conditioned to expect some set of features and lack imagination to accept something different than what they have seen a hundred times already.

 

(By the way, you are aware of course, that the original Everquest raids were not actual raids as we understand those at all? That the idea of instanced raids came much later?)