Ohoni.6057 Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 > @"Turin.6921" said: >Imagine if i would request for sPvP to add bot opponents cause i want the rewards without having to invest the time to become skillful enough to compete with other players in a PvP mode? I would be supportive. >Asking for easier raids to get rewards because you feel left out by not being able to invest the time to increase your skill for it is equally problematic. Agreed, and equally in need of a solution. >It takes for a very specific kind of person to see people with rewards from other modes and instead of thinking "thats cool" is actually thinking "Man i really want to have that but i do not want to put the effort he/she did. I need to convince Anet to change the mode for me". Agreed, and the question is, what can be done to make the game *better* for that person? > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > Ok, lets give acces to legendary armor to everyone. How do you plan to reward raiders then. Because if you lock something behind specific content it becomes a reward. They get access to the Legendary armor faster and easier by completing raids. In many cases they've already had it for many months now. Their reward is that they get the armor, they don't need some sort of *special* reward that nobody else can get *at all.* > @"Turin.6921" said: > > @"intox.6347" said: > > that much energy put in something for just 5% of population... dead end. > > > Citation needed. > > Also you are missing other aspects of raids on your analysis. It might only be a generally small part of the community playing but: > - the team building raids is also very small compared to the general dev team. Nonsense. The raid *specific* team is supposedly relatively small, but they clearly draw in talent from all over ANet, so the total number of employees that have had a hand in each raid encounter must be significantly sized. > - Mechanics tested in raids find themselves ( in a nerfed fashion) in open world very often. Thus open world exploits some of the experience and tech needed to make harder content. Ok, but that would happen with or without raids existing. > - Highly skilled raiders doing benchmarks help the balance team by informing them on the class limits and even helps inform casual PvE players on builds and class characteristics. Which often causes more harm to the rest of the game than good, as it creates nerfs designed to prevent some "raid breaking bug" that never caused any issues outside of raids. > - The small percentage of people playing also tend to be very dedicated and often paying customers. There's no evidence that raiders spend more than non-raiders, and I strongly suspect the opposite is true. > - Raids give good twitch viewership to the game that is very valuable exposure plus it is actually exiting to watch and easy to follow even if you are not experienced on the mode. GW2's Twitch viewership is insignificantly small in terms of marketing. Far more people watch casual content Youtube videos than watch GW2 Twitch streams. If the Twitch views aren't in the 50K+ range then it doesn't matter whether they're 5000 or 500. > I would call raids quite a successful mode taking into account that it is developed by a single 8-10 people team of a total of 400 (which some are also responsible for fractals as well BTW). Which it isn't. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > Oh, and about the dead end - you're very mistaken here. It doesn't matter how big the percentage is (and it is certainly bigger than 5). It's basically extra players which wouldn't otherwise bother playing the game and spending money on it. That's an unreasonable assumption. You don't know how many of these players would *only* play GW2 with raids (verses how many would still be playing, just in some other mode), and you aren't accounting for how many players quit due to the addition of raids. There's no evidence that raids have caused a net gain in players. >The mere fact that raid development continues means in the eyes of the developers raids are a market success. And I believe they have the better means to judge that. They also continue to support WvW. > @"Digit.1823" said: >What even is this point? Can't they get away from raiding then? What does the implementation of this game mode do for those people? Nothing, that's what. The introduction of raiding brought raid culture into GW2 (note some of the hostile and entitled responses in this thread alone), and locked off GW2 story, content, and rewards behind raid progression, which is something that players came to GW2 to get away from. You can argue that raids are their own separate thing that nobody needs to participate in, but not while arguing that there shouldn't also be easier versions of them for those that don't want to participate in their current form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"intox.6347" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"intox.6347" said: > > > > > See lot of raiders taking point like " Its all ok" > > > > > % of ppl raiding will be interesting statistics. > > > > > As a normal person which have some hours per day for game i dont find raids viable. I can do T4 fracts with no problem, party done fast and then you go. > > > > > > > when I want a smooth clear, - ask specific roles, ping kps, etc. > > > > > > But almost all raiders here said that raid is easy, why you need specific roles, ping kill proofs, show eq or link eff acc. Coz its not that easy, bad party = fail. Its easy for somebody who do it on daily basis. So its about ppl, but how easy is to setup normal party which will not fail ? > > > > > > I really dont care much if came here 20 raiders saying all fine. Im playing from start, from all my friends, guildies going raid 8 ppl (from 650) ... some of them failed many atempts on VG long time ago... and that was end. From my point of view.... that much energy put in something for just 5% of population... dead end. > > > > > As for the raids. I started from a similar position. Poked my guildies for two weeks until we finally agreed to try it. Pugged some people to fill the team, went off and kept failing. Then we repeated the process on the next weekend and we eventually got the kill. In the end we didn't really continue, as not everyone was really excited about it. Like I said, to each their own. So I looked for a training guild, joined one, and kept failing. See the pattern here? It's personal involvement. You can't blame the game, the system and the universe that you can't be bothered to put a minimal effort. It doesn't make something hard, it makes you lazy. > > My experience with Raids, much like what you have stated above, does that mean I’m lazy and didn’t put minimal effort? > > > It makes you lazy if you come to complain on forums instead of putting the effort. I don't know your story, so I can't say anything about you personally. But I can give a counter example. When Aurora was released, it required me to to Chalice of Tears, a JP I'm particularly not fond of. Did I come to forums to complain and make demands? No. I simply used guild chat and asked if my guildies wanted to group up and do the thing together. And while my brief attempts of doing it solo were quite miserable and annoyed me thoroughly, doing it with friends ended up a lot smoother and actually fun. We helped each other, we mocked each other for our failures, we laughed about it and in the end we all got what we needed. Again, it's a matter of personal involvement. > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > Oh, and about the dead end - you're very mistaken here. It doesn't matter how big the percentage is (and it is certainly bigger than 5). It's basically extra players which wouldn't otherwise bother playing the game and spending money on it. > > That's an unreasonable assumption. You don't know how many of these players would *only* play GW2 with raids (verses how many would still be playing, just in some other mode), and you aren't accounting for how many players quit due to the addition of raids. There's no evidence that raids have caused a net gain in players. Oh, but there actually *is*. Very hard, rock-solid evidence. And it is in the simple fact: the people who actually have access to the numbers deemed them successful enough to warrant the continued development. *You* are the one engaging in speculating about possibilities. I'm observing facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 I would like if there was an introduction boss. Something like storymode in dungeons. The only problem i see in raids is that only thing that can prepare you for raids are t4 fractals and not everyone have full ascended Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: >It makes you lazy if you come to complain on forums instead of putting the effort. No it doesn't. Not enjoying the current raid design does not make anyone "lazy." Continuing to play those modes even if you don't enjoy them does not make you "less lazy," it just makes you a glutton for punishment. Coming to the forums and asking for change is the *only* appropriate response to someone who does not enjoy the current state of the game mode. >But I can give a counter example. When Aurora was released, it required me to to Chalice of Tears, a JP I'm particularly not fond of. Did I come to forums to complain and make demands? No. But you *could have.* Plenty did. Chalice of Tears was a particularly poorly designed JP. It was *right* to complain about it on the forums, because that's the only way they'll improve. You do a disservice to yourself, your fellow gamers, *and* ANet when you bottle up your criticisms rather than making them clear so that they can learn from them and improve. >Oh, but there actually is. Very hard, rock-solid evidence. And it is in the simple fact: the people who actually have access to the numbers deemed them successful enough to warrant the continued development. Nobody has access to those numbers though, not even ANet, because when people leave the game (and plenty have since HoT), they do not know how many of them did so due to the inclusion of raids. Perhaps those players themselves aren't even aware of that. >You are the one engaging in speculating about possibilities. I'm observing facts. You're *cherry picking* facts, there is a difference. > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > I would like if there was an introduction boss. Something like storymode in dungeons. The only problem i see in raids is that only thing that can prepare you for raids are t4 fractals and not everyone have full ascended This might be nice in and of itself, but wouldn't actually resolve many of the main issues. It would be like putting an Out of Order sign on a clogged bathroom and then leaving it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > Ok, lets give acces to legendary armor to everyone. How do you plan to reward raiders then. Because if you lock something behind specific content it becomes a reward. > > They get access to the Legendary armor faster and easier by completing raids. In many cases they've already had it for many months now. Their reward is that they get the armor, they don't need some sort of *special* reward that nobody else can get *at all.* > I think we will not agree on this with you. We both have diferent view on what is fun. I respect your oppinion but i dont share it. For me rewards locked behind specific content is great because it force new players into that content (like i played wvw for my legendary). I know many players that didnt want to even try raids/wvw but are playing them now all the time because they wanted legendary so badly. Your view is that this is a game, players should habe fun and if they want something tuey should get it enjoyable way. I say either they want it that thay are willing to try go out of their comfort zone or they can live without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > >It makes you lazy if you come to complain on forums instead of putting the effort. > > No it doesn't. Not enjoying the current raid design does not make anyone "lazy." Continuing to play those modes even if you don't enjoy them does not make you "less lazy," it just makes you a glutton for punishment. Coming to the forums and asking for change is the *only* appropriate response to someone who does not enjoy the current state of the game mode. > > >But I can give a counter example. When Aurora was released, it required me to to Chalice of Tears, a JP I'm particularly not fond of. Did I come to forums to complain and make demands? No. > > But you *could have.* Plenty did. Chalice of Tears was a particularly poorly designed JP. It was *right* to complain about it on the forums, because that's the only way they'll improve. You do a disservice to yourself, your fellow gamers, *and* ANet when you bottle up your criticisms rather than making them clear so that they can learn from them and improve. > > >Oh, but there actually is. Very hard, rock-solid evidence. And it is in the simple fact: the people who actually have access to the numbers deemed them successful enough to warrant the continued development. > > Nobody has access to those numbers though, not even ANet, because when people leave the game (and plenty have since HoT), they do not know how many of them did so due to the inclusion of raids. Perhaps those players themselves aren't even aware of that. > > >You are the one engaging in speculating about possibilities. I'm observing facts. > > You're *cherry picking* facts, there is a difference. > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > I would like if there was an introduction boss. Something like storymode in dungeons. The only problem i see in raids is that only thing that can prepare you for raids are t4 fractals and not everyone have full ascended > > This might be nice in and of itself, but wouldn't actually resolve many of the main issues. It would be like putting an Out of Order sign on a clogged bathroom and then leaving it at that. I dont understand that. From my point of view raids are working as intended. There are multiple instruments in game to play music. I think most players dont use them. And someone had to develop them. Still they are working as intended by that developer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > You're *cherry picking* facts, there is a difference. Am I? Do we know *anything* beside the fact I "cherry-picked" **for certain**? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: >I think we will not agree on this with you. We both have diferent view on what is fun. I respect your oppinion but i dont share it. For me rewards locked behind specific content is great because it force new players into that content (like i played wvw for my legendary). I've been over this many times before, but maybe this is the first time for you so I'll repeat my talking point. I understand the value in unique rewards as "a way of getting players to try new things." I agree that this is good. However, I believe that there is no value in a player *continuing* to play a mode even after he *has* tried it, and determined that he *does not enjoy it.* Try Green Eggs and Ham, sure. But if you do try it, and now *know* that you do not like green eggs and ham, you should not have to continue eating green eggs and ham every day for years before you're allowed to stop. To this end, I think it's fine for content to offer specific unique rewards, but these rewards should be buried *shallowly,* something that ANY player, regardless of skill level, is capable of earning within a few hours of play at most. If he gives it a chance and it turns out that he really enjoys the content? Great! He can continue to play that content, and continue to work towards other, better rewards. If he does not enjoy this content and wants to play something else? Great! He would be better off doing so, can take his unique reward with him, and anything else he could have won through that specific mode, he can find elsewhere, even if the method for acquiring it there is less efficient. Specifically to raids, I think that there should be a *single* hard mode raid-exclusive reward, a single portion of the Envoy Armor unlock, which can only be earned by spending a few hours running raids, maybe something that would take 50-100 magnetite, and no other requirement. Once you have this, every *other* raid-exclusive reward should be achievable elsewhere, but would take more time and effort than getting them through raiding. If you enjoy hard mode raids, then they should remain the most efficient use of your time, and the most efficient way to earn these rewards. If you truly *don't* enjoy this content, you should not remain hostage to it. >I say either they want it that thay are willing to try go out of their comfort zone or they can live without it. But *both* of those is a bad ending. Either they play a mode that they don't enjoy (bad) or they never get the thing they wanted (bad). Where is the happy ending for that player? >There are multiple instruments in game to play music. I think most players dont use them. And someone had to develop them. Still they are working as intended by that developer Nothing is locked behind use of those instruments. If significant story content and Legendary armor were hard-locked behind the ability to shred Stairway on the lute, then you might have a point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 When you complete the thing you are after the reward feel greater then if you just played and it fell to you lap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turin.6921 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Turin.6921" said: > >Imagine if i would request for sPvP to add bot opponents cause i want the rewards without having to invest the time to become skillful enough to compete with other players in a PvP mode? > > I would be supportive. > > >Asking for easier raids to get rewards because you feel left out by not being able to invest the time to increase your skill for it is equally problematic. > > Agreed, and equally in need of a solution. > > >It takes for a very specific kind of person to see people with rewards from other modes and instead of thinking "thats cool" is actually thinking "Man i really want to have that but i do not want to put the effort he/she did. I need to convince Anet to change the mode for me". > > Agreed, and the question is, what can be done to make the game *better* for that person? > I hope they never do it ¨better¨ for that person. That is a great way to kill-off a game. I would not like to play the game alongside someone like that anyway. I cannot even begin to imagine how toxic he would while playing. that is exactly the kind of person that wants people to carry them through hard content, that flame on people when they think that they are doing 2k less dps than they should and that think that their time is worth more than anyone else´s. You do not want to play with such a person either. > > @"Turin.6921" said: > > > @"intox.6347" said: > > > that much energy put in something for just 5% of population... dead end. > > > > > Citation needed. > > > > Also you are missing other aspects of raids on your analysis. It might only be a generally small part of the community playing but: > > - the team building raids is also very small compared to the general dev team. > > Nonsense. The raid *specific* team is supposedly relatively small, but they clearly draw in talent from all over ANet, so the total number of employees that have had a hand in each raid encounter must be significantly sized. > We know exactly who is working on raids. And they are a typical team of 8-10 people that span throughout the expertise require for a raids encounter. Most people are working on LS and expansions. It been said clearly both in AMA and in the pages on the wiki referring to the dev team that Anet keeps updated themselves.You should do your homework before you call nonsense. > > - Mechanics tested in raids find themselves ( in a nerfed fashion) in open world very often. Thus open world exploits some of the experience and tech needed to make harder content. > > Ok, but that would happen with or without raids existing. > I do not think you understood what i mean there. Challenging content and complex mechanics that you find in raids and faractals push devs into using the engine in creative ways that would not have otherwise. And this expertise can then be used through the game. Every complex game mode has the same effect. > > - Highly skilled raiders doing benchmarks help the balance team by informing them on the class limits and even helps inform casual PvE players on builds and class characteristics. > > Which often causes more harm to the rest of the game than good, as it creates nerfs designed to prevent some "raid breaking bug" that never caused any issues outside of raids. What????Like what? What change made on balance that was raid focused really changed your open world viability and experience? > > - The small percentage of people playing also tend to be very dedicated and often paying customers. > > There's no evidence that raiders spend more than non-raiders, and I strongly suspect the opposite is true. > No but dedicated players do, no matter the mode they are playing. And raiders are dedicated. > > - Raids give good twitch viewership to the game that is very valuable exposure plus it is actually exiting to watch and easy to follow even if you are not experienced on the mode. > > GW2's Twitch viewership is insignificantly small in terms of marketing. Far more people watch casual content Youtube videos than watch GW2 Twitch streams. If the Twitch views aren't in the 50K+ range then it doesn't matter whether they're 5000 or 500. > It still puts GW2 high on the twitch front page. And that matters. Very few games have 50k+ concurrent viewer-ship. They are not the only ones you see in the front page. > > I would call raids quite a successful mode taking into account that it is developed by a single 8-10 people team of a total of 400 (which some are also responsible for fractals as well BTW). > > Which it isn't. > Great argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turin.6921 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > When you complete the thing you are after the reward feel greater then if you just played and it fell to you lap Unless you are a spoiled kid that ¨want its candy NOW¨ and then it gets it it immediately wants even more. That is the problem with too easy and completely accessible reward and content (AKA instant gratification). You get into a greed spiral that is never sated and pushes your to burn through content faster making it just boring. That is why a game like guild wars 2 has a mix of both. You cannot have only instant gratification mechanics (unless you are a p2w mobile game that you get that by spending money) and you cannot only have challenging content cause it becomes tiring (unless you are some niche hardcore IP). You require content that provides a change of pace. People do not seem do understand how important mechanics like this is for a game´s sustainability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 If you take away our raid specific rewards then its fair if we get more gold per hour from raids then mindless farms. Lets say we need 10 minutes for a boss, thats 6 bosses in an hour. Silverwaste farm is 30g/h ? If so we need 38 gold for 6 bosses (counting food) so 6gold 33 silvers per boss fight instead of 2 gold) And i hope noone here want to argue with me that i should be paid more if i actualy use brain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Turin.6921" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > When you complete the thing you are after the reward feel greater then if you just played and it fell to you lap > > Unless you are a spoiled kid that ¨want its candy NOW¨ and then it gets it it immediately wants even more. That is the problem with too easy and completely accessible reward and content (AKA instant gratification). You get into a greed spiral that is never sated and pushes your to burn through content faster making it just boring. That is why a game like guild wars 2 has a mix of both. You cannot have only instant gratification mechanics (unless you are a p2w mobile game that you get that by spending money) and you cannot only have challenging content cause it becomes tiring (unless you are some niche hardcore IP). You require content that provides a change of pace. People do not seem do understand how important mechanics like this is for a game´s sustainability. Exactly (btw i already used thecandy and a kud exampke :D ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turin.6921 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > @"Turin.6921" said: > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > When you complete the thing you are after the reward feel greater then if you just played and it fell to you lap > > > > Unless you are a spoiled kid that ¨want its candy NOW¨ and then it gets it it immediately wants even more. That is the problem with too easy and completely accessible reward and content (AKA instant gratification). You get into a greed spiral that is never sated and pushes your to burn through content faster making it just boring. That is why a game like guild wars 2 has a mix of both. You cannot have only instant gratification mechanics (unless you are a p2w mobile game that you get that by spending money) and you cannot only have challenging content cause it becomes tiring (unless you are some niche hardcore IP). You require content that provides a change of pace. People do not seem do understand how important mechanics like this is for a game´s sustainability. > > Exactly (btw i already used thecandy and a kud exampke :D ) Sorry for the repeat. This thread is big. You miss some things unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Turin.6921" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > @"Turin.6921" said: > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > When you complete the thing you are after the reward feel greater then if you just played and it fell to you lap > > > > > > Unless you are a spoiled kid that ¨want its candy NOW¨ and then it gets it it immediately wants even more. That is the problem with too easy and completely accessible reward and content (AKA instant gratification). You get into a greed spiral that is never sated and pushes your to burn through content faster making it just boring. That is why a game like guild wars 2 has a mix of both. You cannot have only instant gratification mechanics (unless you are a p2w mobile game that you get that by spending money) and you cannot only have challenging content cause it becomes tiring (unless you are some niche hardcore IP). You require content that provides a change of pace. People do not seem do understand how important mechanics like this is for a game´s sustainability. > > > > Exactly (btw i already used thecandy and a kud exampke :D ) > > Sorry for the repeat. This thread is big. You miss some things unfortunately. Its ok. I am not blaming. I just wanted to point out that our view is similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > When you complete the thing you are after the reward feel greater then if you just played and it fell to you lap Totally agreed! > @"Turin.6921" said: > I hope they never do it ¨better¨ for that person. That is a great way to kill-off a game. I would not like to play the game alongside someone like that anyway. I cannot even begin to imagine how toxic he would while playing. that is exactly the kinds of people that wants people to carry them through hard content, that flame on people when they think that they are doing 2k less dps than they should and that think that their time is worth more than anyone else´s. You do not want to play with such a person either. The goal is to provide content in which nobody *needs* to carry or be carried, in which whatever someone brings, they are benefiting the team. >We know exactly who is working on raids. And they are a typical team of 8-10 people that span throughout the expertise require for a raids encounter. We know how many people are in the raid *specific* team, the ones whos *only* job is to work on raids. We also know that there are plenty of other people within the studio who develop content for the raids, because that's how studio game development works. No way is the small raid team alone responsible for 100% of what you see when you enter a raid. >I do not think you understood what i mean there. Challenging content and complex mechanics that you find in raids and faractals push devs into using the engine in creative ways that would not have otherwise. And this expertise can then be used through the game. Every complex game mode has the same effect. Some of their more creative work has had nothing to do with raids. Perhaps they would not have created the exact same gameplay elements without the inspiration of building a raid encounter around it, but they would have created equivalently enjoyable concepts, perhaps even more enjoyable since they would be designed from the ground up to work with more people, rather than being shoehorned into that situation. > What????Like what? What change made on balance that was raid focused really changed your open world viability and experience? I could never recall specifics, but there were cases like Chrono or Druid nerfs that were based around them being just too effective in their raid roles, but that left them less effective in solo situations. I'm sure there were plenty of people pointing out at the time these nerfs occurred. I'm surprised you remained unaware of this. >No but dedicated players do, no matter the mode they are playing. And raiders are dedicated. But not necessarily more dedicated than those who don't raid, and the type of dedication they have doesn't necessarily lead to them spending more on the game. This is not like WoW where all they need is for people to keep paying the sub fee every month, in this game they benefit from people buying cosmetics than that sort of thing, and for that purpose, someone who never leaves LA can be as valuable a customer as someone who clears the raid every single day. >It still puts GW2 high on the twitch front page. And that matters. Very few games have 50k+ concurrent viewer-ship. They are not the only ones you see in the front page. Right now, at 5:20 in the morning, the Twitch front page is whoing me games with between 90K and at minimum 8.8K viewers. From what I hear, even the "amazing" GW2 raid streams don't break 5K, so chances of them sneaking onto the front page seem low to me. Either way, it's not worth it. >Unless you are a spoiled kid that ¨want its candy NOW¨ and then it gets it it immediately wants even more. That is the problem with too easy and completely accessible reward and content (AKA instant gratification). You get into a greed spiral that is never sated and pushes your to burn through content faster making it just boring. The same is true with the raid cycle. No difference there. Remember, we aren't talking about providing any sort of "faster" path to *anything* here. It would always take longer and more effort than any existing option. All we're talking about is offering a more *enjoyable* path to the goal. People keep saying "instant," "instant," "instant," *nobody* is asking for "instant" anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turin.6921 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > > @"Turin.6921" said: > > I hope they never do it ¨better¨ for that person. That is a great way to kill-off a game. I would not like to play the game alongside someone like that anyway. I cannot even begin to imagine how toxic he would while playing. that is exactly the kinds of people that wants people to carry them through hard content, that flame on people when they think that they are doing 2k less dps than they should and that think that their time is worth more than anyone else´s. You do not want to play with such a person either. > > The goal is to provide content in which nobody *needs* to carry or be carried, in which whatever someone brings, they are benefiting the team. > That makes no sense. What you are describing is a game that plays itself. Whatever you bring can benefit the team, but some knowledge of play is required unless everything dies using autoattack. Do not you see that that logic has no end unless you let the game play itself? > >We know exactly who is working on raids. And they are a typical team of 8-10 people that span throughout the expertise require for a raids encounter. > > We know how many people are in the raid *specific* team, the ones whos *only* job is to work on raids. We also know that there are plenty of other people within the studio who develop content for the raids, because that's how studio game development works. No way is the small raid team alone responsible for 100% of what you see when you enter a raid. > No you are actually wrong. On the contrary the raids team itself has multiple roles on other teams as well. That is how agile development works and that is how Anet is organized. > >I do not think you understood what i mean there. Challenging content and complex mechanics that you find in raids and faractals push devs into using the engine in creative ways that would not have otherwise. And this expertise can then be used through the game. Every complex game mode has the same effect. > > Some of their more creative work has had nothing to do with raids. Perhaps they would not have created the exact same gameplay elements without the inspiration of building a raid encounter around it, but they would have created equivalently enjoyable concepts, perhaps even more enjoyable since they would be designed from the ground up to work with more people, rather than being shoehorned into that situation. > And some of the most creative work has do to with raids. The tech for some of the fractals, bounties and story bosses and even hearts were first seen in raid bosses. Also development does not work they way you think it does. > > What????Like what? What change made on balance that was raid focused really changed your open world viability and experience? > > I could never recall specifics, but there were cases like Chrono or Druid nerfs that were based around them being just too effective in their raid roles, but that left them less effective in solo situations. I'm sure there were plenty of people pointing out at the time these nerfs occurred. I'm surprised you remained unaware of this. > Such a great problem that i missed yet you cannot recall a single thing. It must have affected you a lot. Do not tell me that you relied on distortion on open world using a chrono that now that you only block attacks has made things that more different. Especially that after the balance change the chono has a very good power build that you can use open world. Also what nerfs on druid are you talking about? all the changes had to do with gruop play i do not recall a single one that might have affected open world solo play. > >No but dedicated players do, no matter the mode they are playing. And raiders are dedicated. > > But not necessarily more dedicated than those who don't raid, and the type of dedication they have doesn't necessarily lead to them spending more on the game. This is not like WoW where all they need is for people to keep paying the sub fee every month, in this game they benefit from people buying cosmetics than that sort of thing, and for that purpose, someone who never leaves LA can be as valuable a customer as someone who clears the raid every single day. > You want people playing your game. The more they play the more likely they are to use the cash shop. That is true for any game. Even ones without subs. > >It still puts GW2 high on the twitch front page. And that matters. Very few games have 50k+ concurrent viewer-ship. They are not the only ones you see in the front page. > > Right now, at 5:20 in the morning, the Twitch front page is whoing me games with between 90K and at minimum 8.8K viewers. From what I hear, even the "amazing" GW2 raid streams don't break 5K, so chances of them sneaking onto the front page seem low to me. Either way, it's not worth it. > You are underestimating the worth of even that brief but significant exposure. (at no cost for Anet as well) > >Unless you are a spoiled kid that ¨want its candy NOW¨ and then it gets it it immediately wants even more. That is the problem with too easy and completely accessible reward and content (AKA instant gratification). You get into a greed spiral that is never sated and pushes your to burn through content faster making it just boring. > > The same is true with the raid cycle. No difference there. Remember, we aren't talking about providing any sort of "faster" path to *anything* here. It would always take longer and more effort than any existing option. All we're talking about is offering a more *enjoyable* path to the goal. > > People keep saying "instant," "instant," "instant," *nobody* is asking for "instant" anything. > Yeah but your path to ¨more enjoyable¨ is to make it require less effort (thus faster) and easier. You never made other proposals. Ignoring the fact that it would make it less enjoyable for the actual target audience. Sorry m8 you keep on contradicting yourself, you use arguments that are factually wrong and you abstractly talk about problems without giving examples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > When you complete the thing you are after the reward feel greater then if you just played and it fell to you lap > > Totally agreed! > > > @"Turin.6921" said: > > I hope they never do it ¨better¨ for that person. That is a great way to kill-off a game. I would not like to play the game alongside someone like that anyway. I cannot even begin to imagine how toxic he would while playing. that is exactly the kinds of people that wants people to carry them through hard content, that flame on people when they think that they are doing 2k less dps than they should and that think that their time is worth more than anyone else´s. You do not want to play with such a person either. > > The goal is to provide content in which nobody *needs* to carry or be carried, in which whatever someone brings, they are benefiting the team. > > >We know exactly who is working on raids. And they are a typical team of 8-10 people that span throughout the expertise require for a raids encounter. > > We know how many people are in the raid *specific* team, the ones whos *only* job is to work on raids. We also know that there are plenty of other people within the studio who develop content for the raids, because that's how studio game development works. No way is the small raid team alone responsible for 100% of what you see when you enter a raid. > > >I do not think you understood what i mean there. Challenging content and complex mechanics that you find in raids and faractals push devs into using the engine in creative ways that would not have otherwise. And this expertise can then be used through the game. Every complex game mode has the same effect. > > Some of their more creative work has had nothing to do with raids. Perhaps they would not have created the exact same gameplay elements without the inspiration of building a raid encounter around it, but they would have created equivalently enjoyable concepts, perhaps even more enjoyable since they would be designed from the ground up to work with more people, rather than being shoehorned into that situation. > > > What????Like what? What change made on balance that was raid focused really changed your open world viability and experience? > > I could never recall specifics, but there were cases like Chrono or Druid nerfs that were based around them being just too effective in their raid roles, but that left them less effective in solo situations. I'm sure there were plenty of people pointing out at the time these nerfs occurred. I'm surprised you remained unaware of this. > > >No but dedicated players do, no matter the mode they are playing. And raiders are dedicated. > > But not necessarily more dedicated than those who don't raid, and the type of dedication they have doesn't necessarily lead to them spending more on the game. This is not like WoW where all they need is for people to keep paying the sub fee every month, in this game they benefit from people buying cosmetics than that sort of thing, and for that purpose, someone who never leaves LA can be as valuable a customer as someone who clears the raid every single day. > > >It still puts GW2 high on the twitch front page. And that matters. Very few games have 50k+ concurrent viewer-ship. They are not the only ones you see in the front page. > > Right now, at 5:20 in the morning, the Twitch front page is whoing me games with between 90K and at minimum 8.8K viewers. From what I hear, even the "amazing" GW2 raid streams don't break 5K, so chances of them sneaking onto the front page seem low to me. Either way, it's not worth it. > > >Unless you are a spoiled kid that ¨want its candy NOW¨ and then it gets it it immediately wants even more. That is the problem with too easy and completely accessible reward and content (AKA instant gratification). You get into a greed spiral that is never sated and pushes your to burn through content faster making it just boring. > > The same is true with the raid cycle. No difference there. Remember, we aren't talking about providing any sort of "faster" path to *anything* here. It would always take longer and more effort than any existing option. All we're talking about is offering a more *enjoyable* path to the goal. > > People keep saying "instant," "instant," "instant," *nobody* is asking for "instant" anything. > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > When you complete the thing you are after the reward feel greater then if you just played and it fell to you lap > > Totally agreed! > > > @"Turin.6921" said: > > I hope they never do it ¨better¨ for that person. That is a great way to kill-off a game. I would not like to play the game alongside someone like that anyway. I cannot even begin to imagine how toxic he would while playing. that is exactly the kinds of people that wants people to carry them through hard content, that flame on people when they think that they are doing 2k less dps than they should and that think that their time is worth more than anyone else´s. You do not want to play with such a person either. > > The goal is to provide content in which nobody *needs* to carry or be carried, in which whatever someone brings, they are benefiting the team. > > >We know exactly who is working on raids. And they are a typical team of 8-10 people that span throughout the expertise require for a raids encounter. > > We know how many people are in the raid *specific* team, the ones whos *only* job is to work on raids. We also know that there are plenty of other people within the studio who develop content for the raids, because that's how studio game development works. No way is the small raid team alone responsible for 100% of what you see when you enter a raid. > > >I do not think you understood what i mean there. Challenging content and complex mechanics that you find in raids and faractals push devs into using the engine in creative ways that would not have otherwise. And this expertise can then be used through the game. Every complex game mode has the same effect. > > Some of their more creative work has had nothing to do with raids. Perhaps they would not have created the exact same gameplay elements without the inspiration of building a raid encounter around it, but they would have created equivalently enjoyable concepts, perhaps even more enjoyable since they would be designed from the ground up to work with more people, rather than being shoehorned into that situation. > > > What????Like what? What change made on balance that was raid focused really changed your open world viability and experience? > > I could never recall specifics, but there were cases like Chrono or Druid nerfs that were based around them being just too effective in their raid roles, but that left them less effective in solo situations. I'm sure there were plenty of people pointing out at the time these nerfs occurred. I'm surprised you remained unaware of this. > > >No but dedicated players do, no matter the mode they are playing. And raiders are dedicated. > > But not necessarily more dedicated than those who don't raid, and the type of dedication they have doesn't necessarily lead to them spending more on the game. This is not like WoW where all they need is for people to keep paying the sub fee every month, in this game they benefit from people buying cosmetics than that sort of thing, and for that purpose, someone who never leaves LA can be as valuable a customer as someone who clears the raid every single day. > > >It still puts GW2 high on the twitch front page. And that matters. Very few games have 50k+ concurrent viewer-ship. They are not the only ones you see in the front page. > > Right now, at 5:20 in the morning, the Twitch front page is whoing me games with between 90K and at minimum 8.8K viewers. From what I hear, even the "amazing" GW2 raid streams don't break 5K, so chances of them sneaking onto the front page seem low to me. Either way, it's not worth it. > > >Unless you are a spoiled kid that ¨want its candy NOW¨ and then it gets it it immediately wants even more. That is the problem with too easy and completely accessible reward and content (AKA instant gratification). You get into a greed spiral that is never sated and pushes your to burn through content faster making it just boring. > > The same is true with the raid cycle. No difference there. Remember, we aren't talking about providing any sort of "faster" path to *anything* here. It would always take longer and more effort than any existing option. All we're talking about is offering a more *enjoyable* path to the goal. > > People keep saying "instant," "instant," "instant," *nobody* is asking for "instant" anything. > Ok, lets brainstorm. If you give legendary armor to other gamemode (and its already in pvp or wvw if i remember correctly) then its possible someone will not play either of those two. Then you need to give it to everyone only realistic way to do it is if you can buy it for gold/karma. Boom -> instand legendary armor. Also that part about locking story behind raids is bullshit. Sorry but there is no better word. How do you want to design raid without story? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 I think we went littlebit out of main topic. Can someone write here list what they thing is the problem with raids right now. Try to do it without comments (or under the list so we can better search in text) Example 1) musical instruments dont provide bonuses in fight if you play uplufting song before fight starts 2) bosses are not in alphabetical order Also you have to remember that anet said they are against multiple raid tiers (when they were explaining why there is only one time reward for raid cm) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Turin.6921" said: > That makes no sense. What you are describing is a game that plays itself. Whatever you bring can benefit the team, but some knowledge of play is required unless everything dies using autoattack. Do not you see that that logic has no end unless you let the game play itself? No, I'm describing one in which each player carries himself, where whatever he contributes improves the group's performance. >No you are actually wrong. On the contrary the raids team itself has multiple roles on other teams as well. That is how agile development works and that is how Anet is organized. Impossible. They've even shown developers from ANet who contributed to raid content, and yet are not on the raid team, such as the sound design team. It would make no sense to have environment artists *only* working on raid environments, or mob artists who *only* work on mobs that end up in raids, or armor designers that *only* worked on Legendary armor and then were presumably let go. The raid team are the consistent nucleus, the ones who primarily *design* the content, but it's inconceivable that a team as small as the one advertised are solely responsible for every stone of the raids. The rest they borrow out from the general staff pool. >And some of the most creative work has do to with raids. The tech for some of the fractals, bounties and story bosses and even hearts were first seen in raid bosses. Also development does not work they way you think it does. Just because *we* first saw it in a raid does not mean that it was developed with the raid in mind, or that a similar effect would not have been created without the raids being a factor. >Such a great problem that i missed yet you cannot recall a single thing. It must have affected you a lot. That's the nature of long term games. They've made thousands of balance tweaks over the years, I can't remember any of them specifically (except the Feline Grace nerf), but I remember when they generally occurred and how I generally felt about them. You probably remember them too if you pay attention to the game at all. >You want people playing your game. The more they play the more likely they are to use the cash shop. That is true for any game. Even ones without subs. Agreed, absolutely nothing to do with raids. >Yeah but your path to ¨more enjoyable¨ is to make it require less effort (thus faster) and easier. Nope. Same effort, more time (thus slower), and easier. >Ignoring the fact that it would make it less enjoyable for the actual target audience. It wouldn't do anything to the target audience, their version should remain intact. > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: >Ok, lets brainstorm. If you give legendary armor to other gamemode (and its already in pvp or wvw if i remember correctly) then its possible someone will not play either of those two. Then you need to give it to everyone only realistic way to do it is if you can buy it for gold/karma. Boom -> instand legendary armor. You *could* do that, but it certainly wouldn't be my preference. Ideally there would be an easy mode raid, and you could work towards it in there. Outside of that, I think it would be great overall if they had a sort of token system by which you could unlock these things. The gold and karma economies have been allowed to run wild for far too long, neither would be suitable, but the more recent LS currencies are a bit of a better metric. I think for Legendary armor there should be various specific tasks involved, just that none of them should require skill a player might not have, nor should they require too much time spent on any single activity. Enough that people would experience a thing, but not so much they they should feel *too* worn down by them. >Also that part about locking story behind raids is kitten. Sorry but there is no better word. How do you want to design raid without story? You wouldn't have to if you provided alternate ways of experiencing that story, like an easier variation of the raid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 >I think we went littlebit out of main topic. Can someone write here list what they thing is the problem with raids right now. Try to do it without comments 1. The existing raids are too dependent on precision, too likely to result in a wipe unless every player executes his role perfectly. 2. There are portions of Tyria's story that are locked behind raids, and no way to experience that story without getting involved with point 1. 3. There is currently no way to earn Envoy armor or other raid-locked rewards without engaging with the challenge level described in point 1. 4. Because of the above reasons, finding casual groups can be very difficult, because any given group is likely A. too exclusive to allow players in who have yet to prove their perfect efficiency, or B. too likely to fail the encounter completely, achieving nothing after even hours of attempts. Neither presents a fun experience to the casual player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turin.6921 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > >I think we went littlebit out of main topic. Can someone write here list what they thing is the problem with raids right now. Try to do it without comments > > 1. The existing raids are too dependent on precision, too likely to result in a wipe unless every player executes his role perfectly. > 2. There are portions of Tyria's story that are locked behind raids, and no way to experience that story without getting involved with point 1. > 3. There is currently no way to earn Envoy armor or other raid-locked rewards without engaging with the challenge level described in point 1. > 4. Because of the above reasons, finding casual groups can be very difficult, because any given group is likely A. too exclusive to allow players in who have yet to prove their perfect efficiency, or B. too likely to fail the encounter completely, achieving nothing after even hours of attempts. Neither presents a fun experience to the casual player. 1. is quite false. Many encounters have less and more depending roles and can allow for mistakes. Only the more difficult ones require full precision. 2. Yeah not really. The stories there are complete side stories that do not affect the main stories and you can just skip and miss nothing. With minimal dialog and cutscnenes. If you just care about the story you get the exact same experience by watching a lets play on youtube. The only reason the story in raids feels actually epic is the challenge of going through it. If you make a casual mode just for the story it will give you nothing more than just watching it on youtube. 3. You yourself said you understand the point of unique rewards for unique modes. A challenging mode needs to have rewards respective to the effort. If not the only thing you accomplish is diminish the value. Other mode also have unique skins ans legendary armor with similar effort. And its fine. I do not see what is so important about envoy armor that you cannot find elsewhere besides the prestige of showing that you accomplish sth challenging. 4. That argument is false and people keep on bringing it up. There are often training runs on LFG, there are guild that train ppl and there are open training communities with thousands of people. And no group no matter how good avoided wipes. Everyone starts with wipes. That is part of the process one way or the other. some people actually find the process fun. I do not understand why you cannot have different game modes catering to different people and why the fact that you cannot play a mode makes you envious and entitled to play it. Do you really find the possibility that the target audience of the content being non-casual or semi-hardcore players and these players actually find it fun as an impossibility. You cannot even imagine Anet actually wanted to cater to that audience with raids since almost all other PvE content is targeting casuals. Why should a mode that does not target the casual players needs to be casual friendly? The same way for example that a PvP mode has no reason to accommodate me that i am a non-PvP player. (EDIT: unless of course a mode does not reach the playerbase Anet deems worth it for the effort - But Anet has these numbers and the fact that they are sticking with it the way they had implies that it satisfies their player number goals. But that criteria are made strictly by them) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Turin.6921" said: >1. is quite false. Many encounters have less and more depending roles and can allow for mistakes. Only the more difficult ones require full precision. Perhaps, but the more difficult ones still remain in the game without any alternatives. And what may be "low precision needed" by your standards are not necessarily the same standards others would use. >2. Yeah not really. The stories there are complete side stories that do not affect the main stories and you can just skip and miss nothing. The "side stories" are as much a part of Tyria as anything else. The existing raid wings tell the stories of characters that weave throughout Tyrian history, and link up to the expansion and LW storylines in numerous points. You can say they don't matter to you, and that's fine, but you can't claim whether they should matter to anyone else. >If you make a casual mode just for the story it will give you nothing more than just watching it on youtube. Nope. >You yourself said you understand the point of unique rewards for unique modes. Yes, AND I said that they should be buried *shallowly.* Envoy armor cannot claim that, it requires you to beat most of the existing encounters and grind away at some of them for weeks or months in order to complete it. You should be able to tell whether you are enjoying yourself MONTHS before you'll actually be finished with the task. I'm fully supportive of locking some small element of the Envoy armor between a part of the raids that ANY player could clear in a few hours, but beyond that, there need to be alternatives. >A challenging mode needs to have rewards respective to the effort. Raids can have a *quantity* of loot worthy of the time and difficulty it takes to complete them, and can provide a *faster* path to the raid-specific rewards, but it should not be the *only* place to find them. If people *enjoy* raiding, then raiding should be the most efficient use of their time. If they don't enjoy raiding, they should be able to play elsewhere and not *absolutely* miss out on anything. >Other mode also have unique skins ans legendary armor with similar effort. Other modes have their own issues to resolve, "whataboutism" does no favors here. >I do not see what is so important about envoy armor that you cannot find elsewhere besides the prestige of showing that you accomplish sth challenging. Great, then we can allow Envoy armor skins to be available elsewhere and it shouldn't be an issue. You don't have to understand *why* other players can like an armor skin just for the way it looks, just understand that they *do.* >There are often training runs on LFG, there are guild that train ppl and there are open training communities with thousands of people. And how often are these runs successful within the first half hour to an hour? Against the more difficult bosses, I mean? "Getting into a raid group" isn't *that* hard, but getting into one where you aren't wasting the whole day on failed attempts is not easy, particularly on off-peak days and times. >And no group no matter how good avoided wipes. Everyone starts with wipes. That is part of the process one way or the other. some people actually find the process fun. And here we're talking about those who do *not* find the process fun, and want it over with ASAP. We're talking about opening up options to *avoid* the "everyone wipes" phase entirely for those that don't enjoy that part. >I do not understand why you cannot have different game modes catering to different people and why the fact that you cannot play a mode makes you envious and entitled to play it. And it's ok that you don't understand, so long as you don't seek to oppose those that do. >Do you really find the possibility that the target audience of the content being non-casual or semi-hardcore players and these players actually find it fun as an impossibility. Of course not, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't consider the bulk of the game's audience as well, and provide options for them to participate. >You cannot even imagine Anet actually wanted to cater to that audience with raids since almost all other PvE content is targeting casuals. Why should a mode that does not target the casual players needs to be casual friendly? So that the larger part of the game's audience is not left out. You cannot claim that "raids are not for you," so long as anything that audience might want remains locked behind it. "Separate but equal" is never satisfactory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turin.6921 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Turin.6921" said: > >If you make a casual mode just for the story it will give you nothing more than just watching it on youtube. > > Nope. > > >You yourself said you understand the point of unique rewards for unique modes. > > Yes, AND I said that they should be buried *shallowly.* Envoy armor cannot claim that, it requires you to beat most of the existing encounters and grind away at some of them for weeks or months in order to complete it. You should be able to tell whether you are enjoying yourself MONTHS before you'll actually be finished with the task. > > I'm fully supportive of locking some small element of the Envoy armor between a part of the raids that ANY player could clear in a few hours, but beyond that, there need to be alternatives. > > >A challenging mode needs to have rewards respective to the effort. > > Raids can have a *quantity* of loot worthy of the time and difficulty it takes to complete them, and can provide a *faster* path to the raid-specific rewards, but it should not be the *only* place to find them. If people *enjoy* raiding, then raiding should be the most efficient use of their time. If they don't enjoy raiding, they should be able to play elsewhere and not *absolutely* miss out on anything. > > >Other mode also have unique skins ans legendary armor with similar effort. > > Other modes have their own issues to resolve, "whataboutism" does no favors here. > > >I do not see what is so important about envoy armor that you cannot find elsewhere besides the prestige of showing that you accomplish sth challenging. > > Great, then we can allow Envoy armor skins to be available elsewhere and it shouldn't be an issue. You don't have to understand *why* other players can like an armor skin just for the way it looks, just understand that they *do.* > And here we're talking about those who do *not* find the process fun, and want it over with ASAP. We're talking about opening up options to *avoid* the "everyone wipes" phase entirely for those that don't enjoy that part. > > >I do not understand why you cannot have different game modes catering to different people and why the fact that you cannot play a mode makes you envious and entitled to play it. > > And it's ok that you don't understand, so long as you don't seek to oppose those that do. > Discussing with you is hopeless. You are talking about a matter you actually know nothing about and obviously never been in a training community and have no idea how things work in raids. For the sake of actually having a discussion on the matter instead of ¨i want a mode that is not for me to adjust to my wishes¨ mentality i would actually go to the OPs idea. Is there a way to make it easier for people to learn raiding? Although i do not think an LFR would work, making the LFG experience more noob friendly can do a lot of good things. Many people that want to start raiding get stuck on trying to learn on LFG which is the worse way possible since LFG is not the friendliest of places. Personally i am very much in-favor of streamlining the LFG in a ways to accommodate training. A separate training category for example for new players to avoid the more elitist groups would help things i believe. It would also give a in-game place for training communities and guilds to advertise themselves clearly as some people miss their existence. Devs could go and observe how the discord training communities do things. They have been training people for a long while and have established rules, categories and systems on how to do it. From then they could explore ways to streamline LFG and squad UI and adding training specific features that would make organizing and managing trainings easier. It might also be a good source of players for the training groups to find people if the community squads needs subs. It might allow non-community members to make equally effective ad-hoc training groups fast. That would immediately make things more accessible and pleasant for new raiders without any compromises on challenge. SO basically make it easier for people to improve than to making the content easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 The story part is true but if someone doesnt care about raids they doesnt know that the story is there. I would be ok with a summary in the game as it is with season 1. As i already said Anet said that they are AGAINST making more raid dificulty options so we have to come with another option so other players want/can participate. I dont know if you raid/how often but i am newer raider myself. I started with training diacord server. Its true that some bosses have mechanics that everyone needs to do but others habe mechanics only some needs to do. There are few bosses that for dps class are a dps golem and you are fine as long as you can do 15k dps. Out of the easier bosses i never experianced a kill that took more then 1 hour with explanation. One day i was part of VG training and 7 out of 9 trainies never saw VG and 6 never saw raid. We killed it at second try. Obviously this is not the avarage group but it is possible. And based on the excel tabel when i sign for raiding most new raiders play dps class (and that usualy doesnt do mechanics). Last raid training i was playing bannerslave for the first time (i literaly just boosted it with tomes and gave it gear) and we killed kc on first try even when i was new to the class. Obviously i was familiar with encounter but it shows that you dont need that much precision and that you domt have to play perfectly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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