Sephylon.4938 Posted April 29, 2018 Author Share Posted April 29, 2018 3rd time I'm repeating myself. There won't ba a 4th. If you do not wish to talk about alternative ways to get people into raiding, (either through intrducing a mote with eased mechanics, or by providing a controlled environment for people to practice by themselves) and their pros and cons, please use the other 2 threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no, stop with the easy mode and it won't work. what's the point. people just should work hard in training runs. when i raided first time it took me once to understand what's going on and passed it after 3rd attempt. you don't need easy mode when it's already easy. stop making people spoiled. if people need easy mode in order to raid then they shouldn't raid in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, I'll agree with you.. IF you can explain to me as adult with a job, family, and all the other responsibilities that come with it, why I should have to work at playing a game I use to escape from work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As an adult with a job, family and other responsibilities, why do you *need* a specific in-game reward? Your wording is all wrong. None of us *needs* anything. We play by choice. We choose what to play, and we choose how invested we want to be in playing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said _need_ and since it is just frivolous entertainment of course it's purely a matter of want and choice, it's not my job after all it's a past time to escape from my job, thank you for stating the obvious, now, back to the actual question. "Why should I have to work at playing a game?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My point exactly - you shouldn't. Nothing forces you do, nothing even requires you to, beside your own choice. If it feels that way, then just don't. Simple. I fail to see the point of complaining a specific activity doesn't suit your tastes in a "frivolous entertainment". If I don't like a particular genre of movies, I don't go to a cinema to watch one of these. If I don't like a particular dessert, I don't order it. Simple. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your further attempts to take the position of a martyr are not particularly convincing. Primarily because it *IS* unfair to give the same rewards for substantially less effort. It's not that you're "filthy casuals". It's that you want to remain one, but be rewarded like you weren't. It's not fair toward all those who had to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure. You want to skip all that? Sure, it's a valid choice. But you don't get the same results. In much a same way you don't get "A"-s on your exams without studying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "It's not fair toward all those who **had** to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No.. No.. No.. You have already established that _no one had to do anything_ , as such they _chose_ to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK. It's not fair toward those who received the same thing for choosing to do something hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S. You can twist semantics all you like. It's still not fair, and it's quite obvious that it isn't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No.. since they _chose_ to do something hard, they don't _deserve_ anything for it. because it was purely their choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should think choosing to do something hard is the best reason there is to say someone deserved a reward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I play an easy game with my friends, we all get a reward (pleasure) > > > > > > > I play a difficult game with my friends, we all get a reward (pleasure) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the point of gaming in general, and why all the other AAA mmorpg got this 10 years ago and progressed their raiding communities beyond a small clique trying to keep content for themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So play the easy game and get the associated rewards. Simple, right? And if you want, come along. I definitely do not try to hoard the content for myself. > > > > > > > > > > exactly so, il play easy mode when i fancy some relaxed play, and earn their rewards overtime, and will play the harder difficult if I want to do that content. What I do not do is argue against content for others when there is clearly a demand and a precedent in the genre at large. You see its not about keeping existing raids that you want for yourselves, it's people like yourself arguing against content for others, which is clearly based on self interest and not what is best for the game - because for a raider, loot is everything and prestige is everything. > > > > > > > > "Demand" is kind of a stretch. I see a demand from a handful of people here, who like to think they're somehow representative for a larger number of players. This may, or may not be true. But one thing is for sure - it is not proven. Based on circumstantial evidence I'm inclined to believe you're strongly exaggerating this demand. Of course, I may be wrong about that. > > > > > > > > Furthermore, if we assume you were right and sufficient demand exists, then I have no say in this anyway. It's ANet's decision, they decide and make you easy mode to play relaxed. And earn the associated rewards. Which *will* be different. See above mentions of the word "fair". > > > > > > actually it is proven, look at every other AAA mmorpg, or GW1 normal raiding etc etc etc. > > > > GW1 is dead and every other AAA MMO isn't developed by ANet. So no, it is actually not proven. But, again, even if it were, it wouldn't end up like you hope. > > no actually it is, GW normal raiding was very popular before GW2 came out, and yes it is proven through precedence in every other AAA mmorpg. And it would end up not as i hope but as per popular demand. Nope, it would not end up as the popular demand, because what's popular here is unfair and broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no, stop with the easy mode and it won't work. what's the point. people just should work hard in training runs. when i raided first time it took me once to understand what's going on and passed it after 3rd attempt. you don't need easy mode when it's already easy. stop making people spoiled. if people need easy mode in order to raid then they shouldn't raid in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, I'll agree with you.. IF you can explain to me as adult with a job, family, and all the other responsibilities that come with it, why I should have to work at playing a game I use to escape from work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As an adult with a job, family and other responsibilities, why do you *need* a specific in-game reward? Your wording is all wrong. None of us *needs* anything. We play by choice. We choose what to play, and we choose how invested we want to be in playing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said _need_ and since it is just frivolous entertainment of course it's purely a matter of want and choice, it's not my job after all it's a past time to escape from my job, thank you for stating the obvious, now, back to the actual question. "Why should I have to work at playing a game?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My point exactly - you shouldn't. Nothing forces you do, nothing even requires you to, beside your own choice. If it feels that way, then just don't. Simple. I fail to see the point of complaining a specific activity doesn't suit your tastes in a "frivolous entertainment". If I don't like a particular genre of movies, I don't go to a cinema to watch one of these. If I don't like a particular dessert, I don't order it. Simple. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your further attempts to take the position of a martyr are not particularly convincing. Primarily because it *IS* unfair to give the same rewards for substantially less effort. It's not that you're "filthy casuals". It's that you want to remain one, but be rewarded like you weren't. It's not fair toward all those who had to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure. You want to skip all that? Sure, it's a valid choice. But you don't get the same results. In much a same way you don't get "A"-s on your exams without studying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "It's not fair toward all those who **had** to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No.. No.. No.. You have already established that _no one had to do anything_ , as such they _chose_ to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK. It's not fair toward those who received the same thing for choosing to do something hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S. You can twist semantics all you like. It's still not fair, and it's quite obvious that it isn't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No.. since they _chose_ to do something hard, they don't _deserve_ anything for it. because it was purely their choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should think choosing to do something hard is the best reason there is to say someone deserved a reward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I play an easy game with my friends, we all get a reward (pleasure) > > > > > > > > I play a difficult game with my friends, we all get a reward (pleasure) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the point of gaming in general, and why all the other AAA mmorpg got this 10 years ago and progressed their raiding communities beyond a small clique trying to keep content for themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So play the easy game and get the associated rewards. Simple, right? And if you want, come along. I definitely do not try to hoard the content for myself. > > > > > > > > > > > > exactly so, il play easy mode when i fancy some relaxed play, and earn their rewards overtime, and will play the harder difficult if I want to do that content. What I do not do is argue against content for others when there is clearly a demand and a precedent in the genre at large. You see its not about keeping existing raids that you want for yourselves, it's people like yourself arguing against content for others, which is clearly based on self interest and not what is best for the game - because for a raider, loot is everything and prestige is everything. > > > > > > > > > > "Demand" is kind of a stretch. I see a demand from a handful of people here, who like to think they're somehow representative for a larger number of players. This may, or may not be true. But one thing is for sure - it is not proven. Based on circumstantial evidence I'm inclined to believe you're strongly exaggerating this demand. Of course, I may be wrong about that. > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, if we assume you were right and sufficient demand exists, then I have no say in this anyway. It's ANet's decision, they decide and make you easy mode to play relaxed. And earn the associated rewards. Which *will* be different. See above mentions of the word "fair". > > > > > > > > actually it is proven, look at every other AAA mmorpg, or GW1 normal raiding etc etc etc. > > > > > > GW1 is dead and every other AAA MMO isn't developed by ANet. So no, it is actually not proven. But, again, even if it were, it wouldn't end up like you hope. > > > > no actually it is, GW normal raiding was very popular before GW2 came out, and yes it is proven through precedence in every other AAA mmorpg. And it would end up not as i hope but as per popular demand. > > Nope, it would not end up as the popular demand, because what's popular here is unfair and broken. oooook then. As per previous post, the thread is about what would make an easy mode raid viable, and that means puggable. For a raid to be puggable it needs to be stable enough that people don't quit after too many wipes, so for me as they have done in other games, you need to take out 3 key factors : 1) one shot mechanics. 2) Bullet storms that require tight orchestration of raid positioning. 3) tightly tuned dps races requiring min maxing of dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 Raids *are* puggable as they are. Demonstrable fact. Also I've given some actual feedback with reasoning on the ideas in the OP. Have you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > Raids *are* puggable as they are. Demonstrable fact. Also I've given some actual feedback with reasoning on the ideas in the OP. Have you? ook then. Seph asked to get things back on track, that was what i was referring to in my comments, not you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Despond.2174 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 Oh god can you stop with this easy mode nonsense that's from WoW? Raids are there for the top tier PVE content. You either put in the effort to do them or you don't. In fact raiding compared to other MMOs in GW2 is much easier. It's why GW2 has a very horizontal gear progression, that by itself makes raiding "easier" mode. Forcing your way isn't going to work, nothing is wrong with raiding when it started and there's nothing wrong with it now. It's not meant to be instantly accessible, it's meant to take a bit of effort and time to slowly build up your kills. New players have SO much to do in this game, raiding is something you do way @ the end. Stop saying "new players" to try further your agenda, this game has near abundance of content that's easy and profitable right from the very start. It's tiring now you're just forcing out threads, if AANET wants it in they will do it, but most people who play this MMO to steer AWAY from MMOs like WoW don't want or need it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted April 29, 2018 Author Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no, stop with the easy mode and it won't work. what's the point. people just should work hard in training runs. when i raided first time it took me once to understand what's going on and passed it after 3rd attempt. you don't need easy mode when it's already easy. stop making people spoiled. if people need easy mode in order to raid then they shouldn't raid in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, I'll agree with you.. IF you can explain to me as adult with a job, family, and all the other responsibilities that come with it, why I should have to work at playing a game I use to escape from work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As an adult with a job, family and other responsibilities, why do you *need* a specific in-game reward? Your wording is all wrong. None of us *needs* anything. We play by choice. We choose what to play, and we choose how invested we want to be in playing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said _need_ and since it is just frivolous entertainment of course it's purely a matter of want and choice, it's not my job after all it's a past time to escape from my job, thank you for stating the obvious, now, back to the actual question. "Why should I have to work at playing a game?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My point exactly - you shouldn't. Nothing forces you do, nothing even requires you to, beside your own choice. If it feels that way, then just don't. Simple. I fail to see the point of complaining a specific activity doesn't suit your tastes in a "frivolous entertainment". If I don't like a particular genre of movies, I don't go to a cinema to watch one of these. If I don't like a particular dessert, I don't order it. Simple. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your further attempts to take the position of a martyr are not particularly convincing. Primarily because it *IS* unfair to give the same rewards for substantially less effort. It's not that you're "filthy casuals". It's that you want to remain one, but be rewarded like you weren't. It's not fair toward all those who had to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure. You want to skip all that? Sure, it's a valid choice. But you don't get the same results. In much a same way you don't get "A"-s on your exams without studying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "It's not fair toward all those who **had** to learn, understand, improve through practice and failure." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No.. No.. No.. You have already established that _no one had to do anything_ , as such they _chose_ to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK. It's not fair toward those who received the same thing for choosing to do something hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S. You can twist semantics all you like. It's still not fair, and it's quite obvious that it isn't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No.. since they _chose_ to do something hard, they don't _deserve_ anything for it. because it was purely their choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should think choosing to do something hard is the best reason there is to say someone deserved a reward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I play an easy game with my friends, we all get a reward (pleasure) > > > > > > > > > I play a difficult game with my friends, we all get a reward (pleasure) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the point of gaming in general, and why all the other AAA mmorpg got this 10 years ago and progressed their raiding communities beyond a small clique trying to keep content for themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So play the easy game and get the associated rewards. Simple, right? And if you want, come along. I definitely do not try to hoard the content for myself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exactly so, il play easy mode when i fancy some relaxed play, and earn their rewards overtime, and will play the harder difficult if I want to do that content. What I do not do is argue against content for others when there is clearly a demand and a precedent in the genre at large. You see its not about keeping existing raids that you want for yourselves, it's people like yourself arguing against content for others, which is clearly based on self interest and not what is best for the game - because for a raider, loot is everything and prestige is everything. > > > > > > > > > > > > "Demand" is kind of a stretch. I see a demand from a handful of people here, who like to think they're somehow representative for a larger number of players. This may, or may not be true. But one thing is for sure - it is not proven. Based on circumstantial evidence I'm inclined to believe you're strongly exaggerating this demand. Of course, I may be wrong about that. > > > > > > > > > > > > Furthermore, if we assume you were right and sufficient demand exists, then I have no say in this anyway. It's ANet's decision, they decide and make you easy mode to play relaxed. And earn the associated rewards. Which *will* be different. See above mentions of the word "fair". > > > > > > > > > > actually it is proven, look at every other AAA mmorpg, or GW1 normal raiding etc etc etc. > > > > > > > > GW1 is dead and every other AAA MMO isn't developed by ANet. So no, it is actually not proven. But, again, even if it were, it wouldn't end up like you hope. > > > > > > no actually it is, GW normal raiding was very popular before GW2 came out, and yes it is proven through precedence in every other AAA mmorpg. And it would end up not as i hope but as per popular demand. > > > > Nope, it would not end up as the popular demand, because what's popular here is unfair and broken. > > oooook then. > > As per previous post, the thread is about what would make an easy mode raid viable, and that means puggable. For a raid to be puggable it needs to be stable enough that people don't quit after too many wipes, so for me as they have done in other games, you need to take out 3 key factors : > > 1) one shot mechanics. > 2) Bullet storms that require tight orchestration of raid positioning. > 3) tightly tuned dps races requiring min maxing of dps. I feel like that would not leave much for raids to do then, additionally in vg the only raid positioning you need to watch out for is if you're on green duties or the tank, which means only half the group needs to be weary of positioning 3/5 at worst if you want to assign a backup for greens. The rest of the group essentially has the entire field until after split. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted April 29, 2018 Author Share Posted April 29, 2018 > @"Despond.2174" said: > Oh god can you stop with this easy mode nonsense that's from WoW? Raids are there for the top tier PVE content. You either put in the effort to do them or you don't. In fact raiding compared to other MMOs in GW2 is much easier. It's why GW2 has a very horizontal gear progression, that by itself makes raiding "easier" mode. Forcing your way isn't going to work, nothing is wrong with raiding when it started and there's nothing wrong with it now. It's not meant to be instantly accessible, it's meant to take a bit of effort and time to slowly build up your kills. > > New players have SO much to do in this game, raiding is something you do way @ the end. Stop saying "new players" to try further your agenda, this game has near abundance of content that's easy and profitable right from the very start. It's tiring now you're just forcing out threads, if AANET wants it in they will do it, but most people who play this MMO to steer AWAY from MMOs like WoW don't want or need it. I thank you for your participation in this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 > @"Sykper.6583" said: >The Vale Guardian Tank Aggro is altered slightly, the first person who tags Vale Guardian has aggro throughout the entire fight unless they subsequently get defeated. This is the only major alteration that deviates heavily from the normal version, as Toughness is used as the tank check. This might be a way to make the tank role less gear-dependent, but the amount of skill and effort involved would be unchanged. A team with a bad tank would still have a bad tank. Other than that, it's mostly positive suggestions, but I dislike changes that reduce the speed or timing of an attack, because I believe they set up poor muscle-memory in players as to how to deal with the mechanic. I prefer changes where masterfully defusing the mechanic in easy mode would translate 1:1 for masterfully defusing them in hard. >Easy-Mode Versions of the encounters cannot trivialize key mechanics. An Easy-Mode Samarog would still have to INSTANTLY kill a player who gets knocked into his spears on the edges of the arena, however the knockback distance could be reduced so that visually the players catch on the gimmick. Simply reducing the damage would not have sufficed for that example. What if it went from insta-kill to insta-downed and teleport them to just inside the arena space where other players can reasonably-safely recover them? It would *hurt,* but it would be recoverable. Or maybe it would "trap" them there for like ten seconds, and then spit them back at half HP or something, which again would be a very noticeable inconvenience, but recoverable. The latter would be a new mechanic to enable, but perhaps not that difficult to make based on prior elements. > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > Let me redirect this conversation. I peraonally like the suggestion of adding boss mechanics to the golem in the training area, though I feel like it may be too easy. What if we make it so that we can only add the option for boss mechanics while we have the pulsing area damage option on? Also what are your opinions on adding tasks and titles to it for new players to use in lieu of insights to show that they are familiar with the mechanics? That could be interesting, although again, it shouldn't be necessary unless they want to do the hard mode version of the raid. The easy mode version should never require "credentials." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 > @"Despond.2174" said: > Oh god can you stop with this easy mode nonsense that's from WoW? Raids are there for the top tier PVE content. You either put in the effort to do them or you don't. In fact raiding compared to other MMOs in GW2 is much easier. It's why GW2 has a very horizontal gear progression, that by itself makes raiding "easier" mode. Forcing your way isn't going to work, nothing is wrong with raiding when it started and there's nothing wrong with it now. It's not meant to be instantly accessible, it's meant to take a bit of effort and time to slowly build up your kills. > > New players have SO much to do in this game, raiding is something you do way @ the end. Stop saying "new players" to try further your agenda, this game has near abundance of content that's easy and profitable right from the very start. It's tiring now you're just forcing out threads, if AANET wants it in they will do it, but most people who play this MMO to steer AWAY from MMOs like WoW don't want or need it. Most of those people trying to get away from WoW, didn't want Raids at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Despond.2174" said: > > Oh god can you stop with this easy mode nonsense that's from WoW? Raids are there for the top tier PVE content. You either put in the effort to do them or you don't. In fact raiding compared to other MMOs in GW2 is much easier. It's why GW2 has a very horizontal gear progression, that by itself makes raiding "easier" mode. Forcing your way isn't going to work, nothing is wrong with raiding when it started and there's nothing wrong with it now. It's not meant to be instantly accessible, it's meant to take a bit of effort and time to slowly build up your kills. > > > > New players have SO much to do in this game, raiding is something you do way @ the end. Stop saying "new players" to try further your agenda, this game has near abundance of content that's easy and profitable right from the very start. It's tiring now you're just forcing out threads, if AANET wants it in they will do it, but most people who play this MMO to steer AWAY from MMOs like WoW don't want or need it. > > Most of those people trying to get away from WoW, didn't want Raids at all. > > So don't play them. It's not like you get tax increases if you don't raid in GW2 or something like it. Also "I came for WoW to get away from raids, please implement easier raids". Because being consistent and making sense are too boring, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykper.6583 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Sykper.6583" said: > >The Vale Guardian Tank Aggro is altered slightly, the first person who tags Vale Guardian has aggro throughout the entire fight unless they subsequently get defeated. This is the only major alteration that deviates heavily from the normal version, as Toughness is used as the tank check. > > This might be a way to make the tank role less gear-dependent, but the amount of skill and effort involved would be unchanged. A team with a bad tank would still have a bad tank. The alterations I made to the encounter have reduced or removed most damage effects. It's **really** not that difficult if you decide to 'be' the tank, to move the boss. Because that's what your job is in easy-mode, because the VG 'Punch' has been significantly reduced. This is as 'Tutorial' as it can be for learning how to tank and move a boss while still showing off what happens when you don't face the boss the proper direction. > > >Easy-Mode Versions of the encounters cannot trivialize key mechanics. An Easy-Mode Samarog would still have to INSTANTLY kill a player who gets knocked into his spears on the edges of the arena, however the knockback distance could be reduced so that visually the players catch on the gimmick. Simply reducing the damage would not have sufficed for that example. > > What if it went from insta-kill to insta-downed and teleport them to just inside the arena space where other players can reasonably-safely recover them? It would *hurt,* but it would be recoverable. Or maybe it would "trap" them there for like ten seconds, and then spit them back at half HP or something, which again would be a very noticeable inconvenience, but recoverable. The latter would be a new mechanic to enable, but perhaps not that difficult to make based on prior elements. > I think I might prefer the 'trap' idea over the other one as what could happen then is the spear AoEs being laid on top of the teleport spot. Maybe the trap idea you can spam the special action key to attempt to...well child-friendly wise, "un-impale" yourself. While you are impaled you are taking steadily damage that will kill you if you don't get unstuck. That can be creative but I feel like that would take resources to program, whereas adjusting a knockback range in my iteration seems more feasible. But honestly a lot of this is speculation, I can't say anything at all to what kind of production time Arenanet can churn out changes like this or how large an impact it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 > @"Sykper.6583" said: >I think I might prefer the 'trap' idea over the other one as what could happen then is the spear AoEs being laid on top of the teleport spot. Maybe the trap idea you can spam the special action key to attempt to...well child-friendly wise, "un-impale" yourself. While you are impaled you are taking steadily damage that will kill you if you don't get unstuck. That can be creative but I feel like that would take resources to program, whereas adjusting a knockback range in my iteration seems more feasible. Yeah, it really depends on how their mechanics are structured, how much work goes into A vs B. Sometimes what seems easier is actually harder than what seems harder, depending on how things are structured. I think the effects in question already exist in other parts of the game, and implementing them could (and really should) be as simple as porting them from one part to the other, but it may not be that simple. Just shortening the distance would make it less likely to cause harm, but you'd still have to be careful of position if he got to close to edges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eramonster.2718 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 No idea why my post got removed, but there is already an "Easy mode" VG example in Bloodfen with the same mechanics for reference : • Non teleporting blue circles. • Incentive buff to encourage players to seek out and stand in green circles • Watered down damage. • No electrified ground sections. • Extended timer. Tho I'm not sure; what is the purpose of this OP to collect players feedback for an Easy VG? > The purpose of this is to give a simplified version of vg to serve as a means to practice mechanics, to get your feet wet so to speak, as others have asked before. Any ideas are welcomed, just please separate yourselves from your ideas, and criticize the idea not the person. We will not discuss rewards here at this time. Once the final draft of how an easy mode vg plays, then we can discuss rewards. Won't this be similar to setting up an easy mode? (A simplified version of raid without the reward part, since we haven't got to the part yet.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 > @"Eramonster.2718" said: > No idea why my post got removed, but there is already an "Easy mode" VG example in Bloodfen with the same mechanics for reference : > > • Non teleporting blue circles. > • Incentive buff to encourage players to seek out and stand in green circles > • Watered down damage. > • No electrified ground sections. > • Extended timer. > > Tho I'm not sure; what is the purpose of this OP to collect players feedback for an Easy VG? > > The purpose of this is to give a simplified version of vg to serve as a means to practice mechanics, to get your feet wet so to speak, as others have asked before. Any ideas are welcomed, just please separate yourselves from your ideas, and criticize the idea not the person. We will not discuss rewards here at this time. Once the final draft of how an easy mode vg plays, then we can discuss rewards. > Won't this be similar to setting up an easy mode? (A simplified version of raid without the reward part, since we haven't got to the part yet.) That's a world boss version of the encounter in an open world situation, designed for a scaling group of up to 150 players. This is about having an easy mode raid version, more similar to the original. I would hope for rules closer to what the original had, just with reduced penalties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted April 30, 2018 Author Share Posted April 30, 2018 > @"Eramonster.2718" said: > No idea why my post got removed, but there is already an "Easy mode" VG example in Bloodfen with the same mechanics for reference : > > • Non teleporting blue circles. > • Incentive buff to encourage players to seek out and stand in green circles > • Watered down damage. > • No electrified ground sections. > • Extended timer. > > Tho I'm not sure; what is the purpose of this OP to collect players feedback for an Easy VG? > > The purpose of this is to give a simplified version of vg to serve as a means to practice mechanics, to get your feet wet so to speak, as others have asked before. Any ideas are welcomed, just please separate yourselves from your ideas, and criticize the idea not the person. We will not discuss rewards here at this time. Once the final draft of how an easy mode vg plays, then we can discuss rewards. > Won't this be similar to setting up an easy mode? (A simplified version of raid without the reward part, since we haven't got to the part yet.) not necessarily, there is a suggestion to plug the watered down mechanics into the kitty golem instead of rewriting the entire boss fight and I'm on board with that idea. Though if we were to rewrite something, I'd go for the pre-event. Some of the training groups I've been in and lead just kills the adds while waiting for the lfg to fill so people don't even get to see it. I've posted an idea of how to do so somewhere in here, page 2 or 3 I think? edit Found it: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/495656#Comment_495656 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draco.9480 Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 people always use the term "new players" excuse or "having a job and no time" excuse just to get special privileges so they can skip the hard work and get the same rewards as others to invested time in it. i never seen people complain about wow raids and they're harder. people work hard to be better in raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 > @"Draco.9480" said: > people always use the term "new players" excuse or "having a job and no time" excuse just to get special privileges so they can skip the hard work and get the same rewards as others to invested time in it. i never seen people complain about wow raids and they're harder. people work hard to be better in raids. The thing is, **if it feels like work, you are doing it wrong.** This is a game. It should *never* feel like "hard work." It should be fun. If you feel bad because other players are having an easier time of it, then you just have the wrong mindset to be talking about games in general. It is not a "special privilege" for people to have access to the things they want from an entertainment product. You have never in your life "earned" anything in GW2 that they haven't, and anything you have been gifted by the game for your participation, you should be grateful for, but not avaricious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > people always use the term "new players" excuse or "having a job and no time" excuse just to get special privileges so they can skip the hard work and get the same rewards as others to invested time in it. i never seen people complain about wow raids and they're harder. people work hard to be better in raids. > > The thing is, **if it feels like work, you are doing it wrong.** > > This is a game. It should *never* feel like "hard work." It should be fun. If you feel bad because other players are having an easier time of it, then you just have the wrong mindset to be talking about games in general. It is not a "special privilege" for people to have access to the things they want from an entertainment product. You have never in your life "earned" anything in GW2 that they haven't, and anything you have been gifted by the game for your participation, you should be grateful for, but not avaricious. And who appointed you High Arbiter of Playing Games Properly? The only thing you can say is "if it's not fun for you, perhaps you should question if you should be playing it". But that's all. And the answer "ok, I shouldn't" is perfectly acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerioth.7062 Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > people always use the term "new players" excuse or "having a job and no time" excuse just to get special privileges so they can skip the hard work and get the same rewards as others to invested time in it. i never seen people complain about wow raids and they're harder. people work hard to be better in raids. > > The thing is, **if it feels like work, you are doing it wrong.** > > This is a game. It should *never* feel like "hard work." It should be fun. If you feel bad because other players are having an easier time of it, then you just have the wrong mindset to be talking about games in general. It is not a "special privilege" for people to have access to the things they want from an entertainment product. You have never in your life "earned" anything in GW2 that they haven't, and anything you have been gifted by the game for your participation, you should be grateful for, but not avaricious. Does not feel like work to me. Seems like the issue is on your end, not in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted May 1, 2018 Author Share Posted May 1, 2018 I just got the conversation back on track :'( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > I just got the conversation back on track :'( So, what's your take on Bloodstone Fen's take on VG? Doesn't it sound a lot like you want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted May 1, 2018 Author Share Posted May 1, 2018 Was exciting the first time. Novelty of it wore off quickly. Additionally, hearding cats is easier than coordinating pve players to cc, do mechanics, or wp when dead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > Was exciting the first time. Novelty of it wore off quickly. Additionally, hearding cats is easier than coordinating pve players to cc, do mechanics, or wp when dead Isn't it what would happen in an instance as well? If I understand you correctly, you seek to provide a version for the very same players. The CC, the mechanics, the coordination, these will all be issues just the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted May 1, 2018 Author Share Posted May 1, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > Was exciting the first time. Novelty of it wore off quickly. Additionally, hearding cats is easier than coordinating pve players to cc, do mechanics, or wp when dead > > Isn't it what would happen in an instance as well? If I understand you correctly, you seek to provide a version for the very same players. The CC, the mechanics, the coordination, these will all be issues just the same. I seek a way for people to train for them outside of training raids as I find those to be too few, especiallly if you can't play during prime time, or frequent the forums/reddit. Easy mode would be 1 way to do it, another way would be to include boss mechanics to the kitty golem. You can also change the pre event to be better reflective of the fight ( as stated above). There was also a discussion of a wing 0 wasn't there? I think that might be an interesting way. Edit Besides, if the point of an easy mode to prepare for normal mode anyway, then if a person has gotten so used to easy mode that they find it boring, they would, in theory, be ready for normal would they not? Stupid smartphone Articulation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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