Dodging is no longer has any significant impact.

[Blimm.5028]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > @"allias.1420" said:

> > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > > The OP makes a good point. Though I don't agree with the implied attack on Mesmer.

> > > >

> > > > You don't agree with anything that reflects negatively on mesmer. The fact of the matter is the example OP used mesmer for was correct. They have insane chains of available defenses making them near unbeatable in a direct 1v1 if the player knows even remotely how to chain their skills.

> > > >

> > > > That being said,

> > > > This post is 100% correct. And the counter effect to that if we don't fight against the spam will be permanently chainable defenses to respond to the permanently chainable offense. Only way to fix this kind of situation is to increase cds, reduce damage, reduce defenses, and reduce base effects of all skills (especially aoes) for all classes. Every class has gotten a ton of powercreeped stuff over the years and man does it show now if you go back and look at old tournies on youtube.

> > >

> > > If that is so... it is a reaction to going , literally, years being under powered after the massive glamour nerf. Then I saw Chronomancer cut down severely and alacrity given to another class.. I fully expect similar to happen to Mirage.. which is why I won't play it. I don't want to go through that stress and disappointment again.

> > >

> > > So I play a spec already underpowered, hoping ANET won't cut it back too hard..

> >

> > "already underpowered"

> >

> >

> > lol

>

> Yes, the spec I play is underpowered. PU Mesmer.

 

So, you are shooting yourself in the foot and then defending the current state of the profession based on your intentionally crippled version. Interesting.

[Zelulose.8695]

I do not think it is Mesmer that needs nerfs. For example, why is it so bad that thief could one shot in the past but now if a thief wears a non vitality ammy they can die with one skill by a warrior or guardian or mesmer or another thief which is hitting 15-17k's right now with dead-eye? I just think having less of a skill spam impact and more of a player skill impact would help the pvp scene (and pve). The more spam-able this game gets, the more it is being compared to wow with less skills. I have tried to convince my friends to play this game but the combat in all game modes is turning them away. Rather than skill impacting the game, outsiders see this game as a meta build game. Just copy and paste meta builds rotate the meta to win. Sure there is room to get good at this game, but it only exists for vets playing duplicate thief builds or warrior builds to test pure skill. Fighting cross classes has become Rock-paper scissors and meaningless. The mechanics is one of the main reasons why people play gw2. Initially there was the promise of being able to tailor a character to your play style and use skill to make it work. Now that characters are more impactful than players it is impossible to make the tailored build work with skill. This is why the pvp scene is hurting. The developers can force the game in any direction they like. But listening to players and being more *democratic* about the game will improve sales of the game and cash shop and publicity. I just hope the developers understand that player's like me are trying to help even though we get frustrated.

 

1. Simple solution I see for the game. Increase armor and vitality to effectively nerf the build impact with the next expansion. If they dont want the power creep than reduce damage for all classes.

2. Increase skill cool-downs to make dodging have more of an impact (the best solution) and lets players be punished for spamming a rotation.

 

 

[lilypop.7819]

I think a more simpler remedy is to add an extra component to PvP dodging. This would drop a RANDOM 0.25 to 1 second cast time aoe delay or instant interrrupt around the dodger. Any leap/jump/invis/de-target effects would come with a 4 to 6 seconds dodge inhibiter on the caster - any movement/de-targeting bump comes at the cost of a inability to dodge for a short period. Point being the component would screw up any attackers/defenders using keyboard 'cc-->burst' marcos which I suspect is the real cause of the decline in the worth of dodging (there is almost no time to manually hit two buttons inside the drop down period giving the scale of burst dps, internet and PC latenacies).

 

Alternatively, make peeps with a full endurance bar have default stability IF they have no active conditional effects being applied - i.e. using burst conditional damage comes at the cost of losing default stability. Point being that this effect cuts across all classes and makes 'cc-->burst dps' macroing less effective.

 

The game definitely needs more macro inhibiters as clearly Anet are totally unable to combat macro usage other than issue useless warnings that can't be backed up.

 

Would also help if developers stopped dropping pixel vomit effects into the game that literally blinds players subject to 2 second kill macro spam! That I really really hate.

 

[choovanski.5462]

> @"Blimm.5028" said:

> > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > @"allias.1420" said:

> > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > > > The OP makes a good point. Though I don't agree with the implied attack on Mesmer.

> > > > >

> > > > > You don't agree with anything that reflects negatively on mesmer. The fact of the matter is the example OP used mesmer for was correct. They have insane chains of available defenses making them near unbeatable in a direct 1v1 if the player knows even remotely how to chain their skills.

> > > > >

> > > > > That being said,

> > > > > This post is 100% correct. And the counter effect to that if we don't fight against the spam will be permanently chainable defenses to respond to the permanently chainable offense. Only way to fix this kind of situation is to increase cds, reduce damage, reduce defenses, and reduce base effects of all skills (especially aoes) for all classes. Every class has gotten a ton of powercreeped stuff over the years and man does it show now if you go back and look at old tournies on youtube.

> > > >

> > > > If that is so... it is a reaction to going , literally, years being under powered after the massive glamour nerf. Then I saw Chronomancer cut down severely and alacrity given to another class.. I fully expect similar to happen to Mirage.. which is why I won't play it. I don't want to go through that stress and disappointment again.

> > > >

> > > > So I play a spec already underpowered, hoping ANET won't cut it back too hard..

> > >

> > > "already underpowered"

> > >

> > >

> > > lol

> >

> > Yes, the spec I play is underpowered. PU Mesmer.

>

> So, you are shooting yourself in the foot and then defending the current state of the profession based on your intentionally crippled version. Interesting.

 

using this metric, all classes are underpowered- because you can run a weak core build on all of them lol

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @"Blimm.5028" said:

> > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > @"allias.1420" said:

> > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > > > The OP makes a good point. Though I don't agree with the implied attack on Mesmer.

> > > > >

> > > > > You don't agree with anything that reflects negatively on mesmer. The fact of the matter is the example OP used mesmer for was correct. They have insane chains of available defenses making them near unbeatable in a direct 1v1 if the player knows even remotely how to chain their skills.

> > > > >

> > > > > That being said,

> > > > > This post is 100% correct. And the counter effect to that if we don't fight against the spam will be permanently chainable defenses to respond to the permanently chainable offense. Only way to fix this kind of situation is to increase cds, reduce damage, reduce defenses, and reduce base effects of all skills (especially aoes) for all classes. Every class has gotten a ton of powercreeped stuff over the years and man does it show now if you go back and look at old tournies on youtube.

> > > >

> > > > If that is so... it is a reaction to going , literally, years being under powered after the massive glamour nerf. Then I saw Chronomancer cut down severely and alacrity given to another class.. I fully expect similar to happen to Mirage.. which is why I won't play it. I don't want to go through that stress and disappointment again.

> > > >

> > > > So I play a spec already underpowered, hoping ANET won't cut it back too hard..

> > >

> > > "already underpowered"

> > >

> > >

> > > lol

> >

> > Yes, the spec I play is underpowered. PU Mesmer.

>

> So, you are shooting yourself in the foot and then defending the current state of the profession based on your intentionally crippled version. Interesting.

 

No, I'm playing a spec that I don't expect to be a nerf target. My defense of the current state of Mesmer is separate from that. I have seen too many over -nerfs of Mesmer. Whatever adjustments are made need to leave core Mesmer intact or stronger.

[Zelulose.8695]

> @"lilypop.7819" said:

> I think a more simpler remedy is to add an extra component to PvP dodging. This would drop a RANDOM 0.25 to 1 second cast time aoe delay or instant interrrupt around the dodger. Any leap/jump/invis/de-target effects would come with a 4 to 6 seconds dodge inhibiter on the caster - any movement/de-targeting bump comes at the cost of a inability to dodge for a short period. Point being the component would screw up any attackers/defenders using keyboard 'cc-->burst' marcos which I suspect is the real cause of the decline in the worth of dodging (there is almost no time to manually hit two buttons inside the drop down period giving the scale of burst dps, internet and PC latenacies).

>

> Alternatively, make peeps with a full endurance bar have default stability IF they have no active conditional effects being applied - i.e. using burst conditional damage comes at the cost of losing default stability. Point being that this effect cuts across all classes and makes 'cc-->burst dps' macroing less effective.

>

> The game definitely needs more macro inhibiters as clearly Anet are totally unable to combat macro usage other than issue useless warnings that can't be backed up.

>

> Would also help if developers stopped dropping pixel vomit effects into the game that literally blinds players subject to 2 second kill macro spam! That I really really hate.

>

 

I would agree to this, but game mechanics that players hate follow a trend that the devs should consider. Players hate mechanics that take power away from their control of a character. It is fun to be dodged and have to try hard to hit a player. It is not fun to be hit by crowd control (stunned) or instantly killed. The reason for this is because it takes control or power from a player who literally plays the game to feel powerful. In the real world, we are constantly controlled by others and our life circumstance. Playing a game presents the opportunity to have fun on a different playing field. However, when another player or gang of players can stun you and prevent you from attacking for x amount of seconds, or someone appears out of nowhere and kills you instantly, players lose that sense of power and thus also lose the sense of fun. This is always why having meta builds contributing more than skill and a reduction in skill variety harms the game. Players feel locked in to meta based games and lose the sense of fun that anything is possible. This ends up making the video game the equivalent of the real world where everything depends on a path the game set for the player and not the player finding his own niche. In other-words, the game becomes a mundane like a normal job. I picked dodging this time to focus on because I know they will never fix the cc problem. Allowing players to expand their abilities is specifically why they need to slow down skill rotations for defense and offense so that dodging and player skill mean more. This will open up build variety and a more competitive pvp scene and a more challenging and fun pve scene. The reason this game sold to many players was because of the gw1 promise: "Diversity". A limited skill bar with many options opened up more variety. Sure, this is hard to balance. But there will always be one op class. The point is that discovering new ways to play the game is fun.

 

The recent meta build system has largely killed the game. Everything on this game can be googled and played with ease little skill involved. One season I played a perma dodge thief to legend as a satire. The reason is, that with the right rotation, dodges are just used to full defense holes. When I couldn't block or evade I filled the hole with a dodge. Even evading nonstop, I still took straggling damage from ai to the point that without healing you could die evading non stop because you forgot to dodge once. Back then there was no real interval after dodges like there is now so it was done much easier. Why on a permanent evading build is the damage so high that one missed dodge every 30 seconds-1 minute can kill you? This is why dodging is meaningless too much defensive supply too little dodge based demand. As I suggested before, spam-able defense and offence need longer cool-downs.

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Dralor.3701" said:

> Sorry I should have been more general instead of naming a skill...

>

> There are so many attacks that can deal that much damage I don’t see how the damage of a rapid fire (or similar) is out of control.

 

This.

 

The problem is not one specific skill or one specific class. The problem is that we are rapidly reaching a point where you have to dodge literally everything. People complain about evade spam, or block spam, or passives, yet those things are the only way to survive these days because you literally cannot afford to get hit. We are at a point where most build's filler/peck skills are doing over 4k. Heck I've had auto attacks hit me for over 5k.

[BlackBeard.2873]

Dodging stopped having its "value" as a primary important defensive mechanic when Anet power-creeped the heck out of the game.

 

Remember when big hits had big animations? Yea...not really a thing anymore. Almost everything is either a 1-shot, invuln, or full-heal nowadays.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"Dralor.3701" said:

> > Sorry I should have been more general instead of naming a skill...

> >

> > There are so many attacks that can deal that much damage I don’t see how the damage of a rapid fire (or similar) is out of control.

>

> This.

>

> The problem is not one specific skill or one specific class. The problem is that we are rapidly reaching a point where you have to dodge literally everything. People complain about evade spam, or block spam, or passives, yet those things are the only way to survive these days because you literally cannot afford to get hit. We are at a point where most build's filler/peck skills are doing over 4k. Heck I've had auto attacks hit me for over 5k.

 

I think ANet is finally starting to see the absurdity of the current state of powercreep though. Toning down passives. Thief autos got nerfed recently. Its baby steps yes, but its in the right direction

[Razor.6392]

This been a problem, yeah.

Dodge the shield bash and full counter to eat whirlwind attack, GS burst, rush, sword toss or whatever, etc.

Dodge the holo shockwave and holo leap to eat corona burst, another 2 leaps, autoattack city and photon blitz.

Dodge the gap closer and dragon release or whatever (elite knockback) to eat the elemental aoe, unrelenting assault, precision strike, sword #5

Dodge the chain and true shot to eat more true shots, sword gap closer, sword #2, whirling wrath, etc.

Dodge the shield / judge int and hammer #2, random ass smite condition, more hammer #2, immob, etc

 

and my favorite one

 

Dodge a shatter and a phantasm attack to eat more shatters and more phantasm attacks ad nauseam! It never ends. Add the weapon skills now such as axe #3, GS#2, Pistol #4 depending on what build you're facing. It's fun!

 

All of the skills mentioned above either output ridic condi damage or do from 5k to 10k damage.

[Curennos.9307]

Condi is probably more balanced than power at this point. On my scourge, I've noticed that people just...stand in everything and then bitch about condi damage when they've taken almost no cleanses 'n whatnot (I admit scourge needs some changes - not nerfs numbers wise, but changes, such as ramp up time of skills).

 

I've tried holo, spellborker and both DD/DE thief. The amount of damage my opponents take if I just cycle through skills is ridiculous. I'm noticing more and more that people are kiting heavily instead of trying to dodge/circle me, too. Power AA damage is through the roof. Meanwhile, my Scourge AA applies a grand total of one bleed stack that does...what, 460 damage over 4.5 second? xD

[Stephen.1207]

need to add more toughness to the game and healing or its always gonna be who hit first wins

 

[FyzE.3472]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > @"Blimm.5028" said:

> > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > @"allias.1420" said:

> > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > > > > The OP makes a good point. Though I don't agree with the implied attack on Mesmer.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You don't agree with anything that reflects negatively on mesmer. The fact of the matter is the example OP used mesmer for was correct. They have insane chains of available defenses making them near unbeatable in a direct 1v1 if the player knows even remotely how to chain their skills.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That being said,

> > > > > > This post is 100% correct. And the counter effect to that if we don't fight against the spam will be permanently chainable defenses to respond to the permanently chainable offense. Only way to fix this kind of situation is to increase cds, reduce damage, reduce defenses, and reduce base effects of all skills (especially aoes) for all classes. Every class has gotten a ton of powercreeped stuff over the years and man does it show now if you go back and look at old tournies on youtube.

> > > > >

> > > > > If that is so... it is a reaction to going , literally, years being under powered after the massive glamour nerf. Then I saw Chronomancer cut down severely and alacrity given to another class.. I fully expect similar to happen to Mirage.. which is why I won't play it. I don't want to go through that stress and disappointment again.

> > > > >

> > > > > So I play a spec already underpowered, hoping ANET won't cut it back too hard..

> > > >

> > > > "already underpowered"

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > lol

> > >

> > > Yes, the spec I play is underpowered. PU Mesmer.

> >

> > So, you are shooting yourself in the foot and then defending the current state of the profession based on your intentionally crippled version. Interesting.

>

> No, I'm playing a spec that I don't expect to be a nerf target. My defense of the current state of Mesmer is separate from that. I have seen too many over -nerfs of Mesmer. Whatever adjustments are made need to leave core Mesmer intact or stronger.

 

Yeah good luck. Remember the nerfs to drood? People begged anet not to nerf core ranger and just go for the elite traits/skills. That is not how everything turned out to be.

[whoknocks.4935]

The problem with dodge lately is that too many things are worth a dodge during a fight with those new powercreep specs.

 

Before dodge were effective to negate the main enemy cc or burst and a well timed dodge could differentiate a bad player from a good one.

 

Now fighting certain profession, you dodge 2 important skills, they have another 5 worth a dodge, but you don't have dodges available anymore.

[Despond.2174]

Dodging the right abilities can completely turn the tide of a fight. Dodging is still very crucial, but if you're just spamming it when you have the energy then it's not going to be that effective But I do agree there is a lot more to dodge these days, so dodging wisely is important and using other movement abilities to not waste you dodging is also important. Against a good player, if you waste your dodges completely, you're going to be toast.

[Aza.2105]

> @"Despond.2174" said:

> Dodging the right abilities can completely turn the tide of a fight. Dodging is still very crucial, but if you're just spamming it when you have the energy then it's not going to be that effective But I do agree there is a lot more to dodge these days, so dodging wisely is important and using other movement abilities to not waste you dodging is also important. Against a good player, if you waste your dodges completely, you're going to be toast.

 

We are no longer playing vanilla gw2 good sir.

[GenghisKhan.7842]

Agree it's less important than at GW2 launch; however, it still has great impact

[Oozo.7856]

There is nothing wrong with a constant stream of attacks comihg in. The problem is when it's a constant stream of 5K+ crits. That is why classes that can chain invuln frames or can kite well are the best for 1v1s.

 

To the guy saying to wait until you see two dodge rolls. Good luck with that against a class that can rotate defensives, because the next thing after those two dodge rolls will be a block and then maybe an invis, port or moboskill to gain distance and then the dodges are back up again. And that doesn't include weapon abilities that give evasion that can be added to the rotation. ;)

 

 

[Theros.1390]

> @"Zelulose.8695" said:

> Dodging has lost its value due to the constant stream of attacks. Look at games like super smash bro's. Dodging in this game can be done to perfectly avoid damage in SSBM because the attacks are not a continuous stream. When Gw2 first began, dodging had more of an impact because there were skills or combos that did allot but went on cool-down. These skills could not be replaced by a rotatable set of alternate combos that resemble spam. Now Gw2 suffers from rotation based gameplay where skills are used so consistently that dodging one 10k just means you take another 10k unless you are a mesmer with their block rotation. Instead dodges are used to fill holes in defense rotation to make a character's defense as spam-able as the enemies offense.

 

Give that man a cookie.

 

And a hot chocolate. And a cat. (for purrs)

 

I mean, this is just so true.

[allias.1420]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"Dralor.3701" said:

> > Sorry I should have been more general instead of naming a skill...

> >

> > There are so many attacks that can deal that much damage I don’t see how the damage of a rapid fire (or similar) is out of control.

>

> This.

>

> The problem is not one specific skill or one specific class. The problem is that we are rapidly reaching a point where you have to dodge literally everything. People complain about evade spam, or block spam, or passives, yet those things are the only way to survive these days because you literally cannot afford to get hit. We are at a point where most build's filler/peck skills are doing over 4k. Heck I've had auto attacks hit me for over 5k.

 

> @"Despond.2174" said:

> Dodging the right abilities can completely turn the tide of a fight. Dodging is still very crucial, but if you're just spamming it when you have the energy then it's not going to be that effective But I do agree there is a lot more to dodge these days, so dodging wisely is important and using other movement abilities to not waste you dodging is also important. Against a good player, if you waste your dodges completely, you're going to be toast.

 

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> > @"Despond.2174" said:

> > Dodging the right abilities can completely turn the tide of a fight. Dodging is still very crucial, but if you're just spamming it when you have the energy then it's not going to be that effective But I do agree there is a lot more to dodge these days, so dodging wisely is important and using other movement abilities to not waste you dodging is also important. Against a good player, if you waste your dodges completely, you're going to be toast.

>

> We are no longer playing vanilla gw2 good sir.

 

nah, he's right mate. Even though all professions now have tons of access to damage mitigation, it still doesn't change the fact that 1 or 2 bad dodges will put you at a disadvantage against a competent player, because then that forces you to burn out your other resources, which could mean the difference between dying and surviving a thief +1 for example. Been playing a lot of Chrono recently (i'm a disgusting person, shame on me) and I found that although chronos have so much access to survivability, I found that if I waste my resources quite a bit in a 1v1, then I usually don't last very long when the opposing thief comes to +1, unless I manage to f4 their steal (god, I love it when that happens)

[KrHome.1920]

Sigil of Energy (even the 25% PvP version) and 40% endurance food have a huge impact on most classes. This is proof that dodges still matter. Reaper is not even viable without that sigil.

 

I agree that the two base dodges itself don't have the same impact like 5 years ago. But that's trivial as everything can be spammed now: damage, defense, CC ...

 

Reading the game and react to situations is neither important nor possible (everthing is too fast paced) anymore. The player that has the superior rotation will win the fight. Skill is determined by anticipating the opponents rotation and countering it - even though this is often not nessessary because of class imbalance and simple but effective metabuild rotations. So the scenarios that reveal player skill are rare these days.

 

E.g.: You can't react to a mesmer, holo or thief burst. You have to anticipate it (mesmer goes stealth -> 20k burst incoming in 2 seconds). You can't react to a warrior stunlock. You have to know how it works or you can waste two stunbreaks and still end up stunlocked.