Mesmer changes 5/8/2017

[BeepBoopBap.2840]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > * Chronophantasma: Resummoned phantasms now do 50% less damage in PvP and WvW.

>

> Good thing almost no one used Imagined Burden let alone GS with Chrono... cuz that 75% reduction xD

>

 

I had that build in my head for a while but never got to try it :( just do nothing but spam GS4 with CP CS and SoE

[Blue.1207]

After some testing I can (with my own experience) say that Chrono Mes is still stupidly OP in PvP scenario. The 50% less damage makes zero difference in regards to killing someone 1v1 or even pressuring a 1v2.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> Ele - "Lightning Flash: This skill can now be used underwater."

>

> Anyone with an ele able to check how this works?

>

> I don't have an ele so can't check - but interested if this could be applied to Blink and Jaunt to make them useable underwater.

 

Target an enemy and you blink to it. I assume it works on allies too but never got to test it.

 

As for the rest of the patch, I am very underwhelmed. I was expecting something more substantial but can be frogiven if we get a balance patch next month.

[apharma.3741]

> @"dragontree.8092" said:

> > @"Eliavres.4910" said:

> > > @"musu.9205" said:

> > > needless nerf to pve mesmer , power chrono will suffer a lot .

> >

> > > @"Blue.1207" said:

> > > Soooo, PvE and PvP Chrono got hit hard (warranted). Mirage however remained untouched and remains one of the most OP specs in the game from both a power and condi perspective.

> >

> > I fail to see where exactly PvE chrono got hit hard. All I see is a 5% nerf to compounding power and a 15s higher cd for continuum split. Signet of Ether got a 5s shorter CD and null field can actually be used underwater, other than that it's all mirage related stuff. With this patch we saw an overall DPS decrease for every class with all the passive buffs being nerfed (spotter/EA/banners), but boon chrono is pretty much untouched and if anything power chrono should now pull ahead of mirage in general.

>

> That 15s higher cd on cs means less usage of elite skills.

>

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > @"Mini Crinny.6190" said:

> > > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > > I haven't had time to read the rest of the balance changes, so I don't know how we fared compared to other classes.

> > > >

> > > > RI and CS weren't overperforming in PvE, so I don't know why their changes were unsplit. Also, they seem hellbent on dancing around the issues with CP and phantasm generation. This doesn't solve the issue, especially since the offending phantasms weren't balanced themselves. But at least its something

> > > >

> > > > Also of note, confusion was updated to deal more damage to non player enemies, so we are going to have to see how much of an improvement that made.

> > >

> > > Ive been playing around with Weaver on golem for PvE, im consistently hitting 40k on large hitbox after the meteor shower change, ontop of that, Tempest Defense got nerfed from doing 20% against stunned or knocked down foes to 10% ( that one i think was needed with all the other damage modifiers weaver brings) I'm still not sure what to make of the Meteor Shower change, its nice hitting 18k on the initial hit but 3k on the last is pretty painful to see

> >

> > Yea the meteor shower change seemed weird to me, but I don't main ele. I think it was in response to the old complaints from the first nerf, where casting meteor shower while using quickness made some attacks miss completely on the target due to the ICD on being able to hit the same target. This removed that issue, but the decreasing damage aspect seemed weird. Still though, its good to hear that overall it doesn't seem like a nerf to the skill and may even be a buff

>

> Meteor damage in wvw and pve is/was pretty op, i'm surprised they didn't nerf/change it sooner. But if like Minny said, we get 18k on the initial hit, then 3k on the last, , might have to say bye bye to my staff weaver in wvw :( 18k is alot, but that's only the inital hit, so players will outsustain that :(

 

You will not hit 18k in WvW because such a build would die instantly to just about anything with range or a teleport, even 3 revs auto attacking will instadown the ele. Remember this 18k hit is with a lot of multipliers, 25 might, 25 vuln on the enemy and tons of boons in full zerk glass ele on a target that has significantly less toughness than your average zergling. You’d be lucky to hit 10k and last time I was on ele 5k was the most I saw from meteor so I’d expect tops 8k from a crit.

 

Or just roll rev, hit 2 and do more damage.

[Happy Meal.2791]

Feigned Surge: sure it has more damage but the fact that it stops you if you get to your target ruins it for me. there is a reason why its 200% increase, since it stops you, your damage output from the skill also stopped.

 

With Slipstream and Feigned Surge changes I can only see and feel it as Mesmer Spear got nerfed. thought they were going to make it smoother not downgraded?

 

I deal so little damage with spear now. with combos couldn't even take off 30% health of a normal mob

 

Trident is kinda cool now that it's more viable then before.

 

My thoughts

Trident actually good now, Spear weak. personally i'd rather it revert as I **loved** the spear.

 

EDIT: After more testing with spear skills. Its trash now, only useful skill on spear is to use Phantasmal Mariner and then swap to trident. not happy about this

[Levetty.1279]

I wish confusing Images did 18k on the first tick and 3k on the last.

[Schpyder.2917]

> @"Happy Meal.2791" said:

> Feigned Surge: sure it has more damage but the fact that it stops you if you get to your target ruins it for me. there is a reason why its 200% increase, since it stops you, your damage output from the skill also stopped.

 

Yeah, Feigned Surge is complete garbage now. The old version is better in every way, in that you could hit the same target multiple times by going through it, and you could generate two clones with it.

 

Also, if you made Kamohoali'i Kotaki like I did, it was the only source of ghost sharks on mesmer, and now it almost never procs. :frown:

 

 

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > * Chronophantasma: Resummoned phantasms now do 50% less damage in PvP and WvW.

>

> Good thing almost no one used Imagined Burden let alone GS with Chrono... cuz that 75% reduction xD

>

 

I'm actually interested, does anyone know if the damage nerf stacks additively or multiplicatively with these two traits?

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > * Chronophantasma: Resummoned phantasms now do 50% less damage in PvP and WvW.

> >

> > Good thing almost no one used Imagined Burden let alone GS with Chrono... cuz that 75% reduction xD

> >

>

> I'm actually interested, does anyone know if the damage nerf stacks additively or multiplicatively with these two traits?

 

In gw2, modifiers almost always stack multiplicatively. That doesn't mean these necessarily do, but it's likely the case.

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Happy Meal.2791" said:

> Feigned Surge: sure it has more damage but the fact that it stops you if you get to your target ruins it for me. there is a reason why its 200% increase, since it stops you, your damage output from the skill also stopped.

>

> With Slipstream and Feigned Surge changes I can only see and feel it as Mesmer Spear got nerfed. thought they were going to make it smoother not downgraded?

>

> I deal so little damage with spear now. with combos couldn't even take off 30% health of a normal mob

>

> Trident is kinda cool now that it's more viable then before.

>

> My thoughts

> Trident actually good now, Spear weak. personally i'd rather it revert as I **loved** the spear.

>

> EDIT: After more testing with spear skills. Its trash now, only useful skill on spear is to use Phantasmal Mariner and then swap to trident. not happy about this

 

I must also agree with this having tested more last night.

 

Slipstream is a big nerf when it comes to raw speed and for example using water to disengage in wvw. Feigned surge likewise. That's actually a shame.

 

Trident has become awesome but Spear has become worse.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> Trident has become awesome but Spear has become worse.

 

I have to check out underwater combat again sometime, last I checked in WvW the trident was already the only usable weapon while the spear was horrid. The spear was pretty much only used for escape and then you wanted to swap asap to actually do some damage.

 

This is on a power build btw, I cant even imagine how bad the spear would be on a condi build. I know its supposed to be the other way around but nope not my experience. Hm then again I also run with scepter on my power build too.

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > Trident has become awesome but Spear has become worse.

>

> I have to check out underwater combat again sometime, last I checked in WvW the trident was already the only usable weapon while the spear was horrid. The spear was pretty much only used for escape and then you wanted to swap asap to actually do some damage.

>

> This is on a power build btw, I cant even imagine how bad the spear would be on a condi build. I know its supposed to be the other way around but nope not my experience. Hm then again I also run with scepter on my power build too.

 

That's just it - spear wasn't used for offence anyway but at least used to be awesome for escape/mobility. Now Slipstream is almost useless for this purpose and feigned surge has the problem of being directed to a target (and also stopping at said target) so you have to detarget in order to use it to move in a direction. Overall spear is not as good as it used to be for disengage/kiting underwater. It's almost better to stay on land and use land teleports/leaps to kite/disengage now.

 

The only consolation is using spear ambush on npc mobs to move around, but I must say I really don't like the new Slipstream or Feigned Surge sadly.

[Happy Meal.2791]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > > Trident has become awesome but Spear has become worse.

> >

> > I have to check out underwater combat again sometime, last I checked in WvW the trident was already the only usable weapon while the spear was horrid. The spear was pretty much only used for escape and then you wanted to swap asap to actually do some damage.

> >

> > This is on a power build btw, I cant even imagine how bad the spear would be on a condi build. I know its supposed to be the other way around but nope not my experience. Hm then again I also run with scepter on my power build too.

>

> That's just it - spear wasn't used for offence anyway but at least used to be awesome for escape/mobility. Now Slipstream is almost useless for this purpose and feigned surge has the problem of being directed to a target (and also stopping at said target) so you have to detarget in order to use it to move in a direction. Overall spear is not as good as it used to be for disengage/kiting underwater. It's almost better to stay on land and use land teleports/leaps to kite/disengage now.

>

> The only consolation is using spear ambush on npc mobs to move around, but I must say I really don't like the new Slipstream or Feigned Surge sadly.

 

In pvp yeah spear combat was never that good as most would use ranged attack and even if you were able to get up close to them a lot of classes have disengaging skill making underwater melee not the best option. but in terms of damage output from the spear it's been significantly decreased as before the change a well placed feigned surge would deal a good amount of damage to multiple targets as the skill could hit 3 targets 9 times in total but now it's just......... sigh

[rank eleven monk.9502]

Chrono still overtuned in spvp. The bunker capabilities need a nerf. Damage is managable. If we only focus on number changes (probably this way the nerf is going to be quicker), my suggestions:

 

Bountiful Disillusionment:

Stability: 2 seconds (from 3) - by far the most important, the stability spam is still unreal

Vigor: 5 seconds (from 8)

Fury, Regen: 8 seconds (from 10)

OR move stability to either shatters to remove the spammability.

 

Illusionary Defense: -3% or -4% incoming damage (from 5%), duration remains the same

Signet of the Ether: It's a decent heal skill with a relatively low recharge while maintaining an incredibly strong secondary utility. Phantasm spam is still opressive because of this. Recharge reduced 33% instead of 50% (or even 25%)

 

Other than this, the only thing I'd consider changing is staff3 to create only one phantasm.

[Arlette.9684]

> @"rank eleven monk.9502" said:

> Chrono still overtuned in spvp. The bunker capabilities need a nerf. Damage is managable. If we only focus on number changes (probably this way the nerf is going to be quicker), my suggestions:

>

> Bountiful Disillusionment:

> Stability: 2 seconds (from 3) - by far the most important, the stability spam is still unreal

> Vigor: 5 seconds (from 8)

> Fury, Regen: 8 seconds (from 10)

> OR move stability to either shatters to remove the spammability.

>

> Illusionary Defense: -3% or -4% incoming damage (from 5%), duration remains the same

> Signet of the Ether: It's a decent heal skill with a relatively low recharge while maintaining an incredibly strong secondary utility. Phantasm spam is still opressive because of this. Recharge reduced 33% instead of 50% (or even 25%)

>

> Other than this, the only thing I'd consider changing is staff3 to create only one phantasm.

 

2 secs of stability? Really? What’s the point of having the stab if you can’t use it to Safe Stomp?

At that point might as well remove the stability component. We need a nerf that addresses the chrono spam without breaking those traits for all other specs.

Same problem with illusionary defense. It’s broken OP for chrono, cuz you always sit at 5 stacks, but for Mirage and core you get an average of 3 stacks and it’s just borderline good enough to take, nerfing it will make it useless for anyone other than Chrono.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"rank eleven monk.9502" said:

> Chrono still overtuned in spvp. The bunker capabilities need a nerf. Damage is managable. If we only focus on number changes (probably this way the nerf is going to be quicker), my suggestions:

>

> Bountiful Disillusionment:

> Stability: 2 seconds (from 3) - by far the most important, the stability spam is still unreal

> Vigor: 5 seconds (from 8)

> Fury, Regen: 8 seconds (from 10)

> OR move stability to either shatters to remove the spammability.

>

> Illusionary Defense: -3% or -4% incoming damage (from 5%), duration remains the same

> Signet of the Ether: It's a decent heal skill with a relatively low recharge while maintaining an incredibly strong secondary utility. Phantasm spam is still opressive because of this. Recharge reduced 33% instead of 50% (or even 25%)

>

> Other than this, the only thing I'd consider changing is staff3 to create only one phantasm.

 

How about addressing the ridiculous phantasm spam without nerfing things that impact everyone else? Chrono does not need to be putting out this many phantasms. The sustain will be less of a problem when they don't have endless phantasms and clones to work with.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Simonoly.4352" said:

> > @"Blue.1207" said:

> > Soooo, PvE and PvP Chrono got hit hard (warranted). Mirage however remained untouched and remains one of the most OP specs in the game from both a power and condi perspective.

>

> What _specifically_ needs to be nerfed on Mirage then? Elusive Mind (again)? Desert Distortion? Those are the only two things I can think of that are problematic.

 

I think Desert Distortion is fine.

 

Elusive Mind should absolutely get nerfed. Change it to 2 condition cleanses on dodge and it'll still be extremely potent and meta without being pure goofballery. What Mirage primarily brings to PvP is the mobility of Jaunt and Mirage Thrust. A lot of what makes condi mirage so potent is actually core mesmer stuff. Burning on torch post rework is extremely lethal. If you can land all three pulses of burning from the torch 4+5 it's straight up 18k damage over 4 seconds on the meta build so cleanse it or resist it or die. The real heavy lifters on Mirage are Blinding Disipation, Ineptitude, and Main the Disillusioned. Torch burning and Greatsword shatter should probably get their damaged trimmed just a bit and they'll mostly be fine.

[rank eleven monk.9502]

> @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > @"rank eleven monk.9502" said:

> > Chrono still overtuned in spvp. The bunker capabilities need a nerf. Damage is managable. If we only focus on number changes (probably this way the nerf is going to be quicker), my suggestions:

> >

> > Bountiful Disillusionment:

> > Stability: 2 seconds (from 3) - by far the most important, the stability spam is still unreal

> > Vigor: 5 seconds (from 8)

> > Fury, Regen: 8 seconds (from 10)

> > OR move stability to either shatters to remove the spammability.

> >

> > Illusionary Defense: -3% or -4% incoming damage (from 5%), duration remains the same

> > Signet of the Ether: It's a decent heal skill with a relatively low recharge while maintaining an incredibly strong secondary utility. Phantasm spam is still opressive because of this. Recharge reduced 33% instead of 50% (or even 25%)

> >

> > Other than this, the only thing I'd consider changing is staff3 to create only one phantasm.

>

> 2 secs of stability? Really? What’s the point of having the stab if you can’t use it to Safe Stomp?

Tell me how many classes have access to 5 safestomp options (all 5 shatters, one of which is distortion)? Don't you find that overkill? Just a little bit?

You can easily stomp even with 2 seconds of stability. Not to mention all the boon duration increase. People even complained about mesmer stomp when we ONLY had distortion. (e.g. condi chrono back in the day).

 

Also, stability is not used for safestomping currently, it is used for almost constant uptime of stability which is ridiculously strong especially combined with the remaining boon spam which makes it impossible to strip.

> At that point might as well remove the stability component.

If you remove it completely chrono bunker becomes useless. I want reasonable nerfs.

> We need a nerf that addresses the chrono spam without breaking those traits for all other specs.

Which other specs use Bountiful Disillusionment? None of them.

By chrono spam you mean phantasm spam? Nerf Signet and staff3 as I wrote, and you will have waaay less phantasms. Phantasm spam is not really an issue anyway, at least not in high level pvp.

> Same problem with illusionary defense. It’s broken OP for chrono, cuz you always sit at 5 stacks, but for Mirage and core you get an average of 3 stacks and it’s just borderline good enough to take, nerfing it will make it useless for anyone other than Chrono.

I'm not sure if chrono clone output is more than a mirage's with deceptive evasion and sw /axe ambush..

Anyways, illusionary defense might be still okay in it's current state if the aforementioned nerfs happen.

 

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"rank eleven monk.9502" said:

> > Chrono still overtuned in spvp. The bunker capabilities need a nerf. Damage is managable. If we only focus on number changes (probably this way the nerf is going to be quicker), my suggestions:

> >

> > Bountiful Disillusionment:

> > Stability: 2 seconds (from 3) - by far the most important, the stability spam is still unreal

> > Vigor: 5 seconds (from 8)

> > Fury, Regen: 8 seconds (from 10)

> > OR move stability to either shatters to remove the spammability.

> >

> > Illusionary Defense: -3% or -4% incoming damage (from 5%), duration remains the same

> > Signet of the Ether: It's a decent heal skill with a relatively low recharge while maintaining an incredibly strong secondary utility. Phantasm spam is still opressive because of this. Recharge reduced 33% instead of 50% (or even 25%)

> >

> > Other than this, the only thing I'd consider changing is staff3 to create only one phantasm.

>

> How about addressing the ridiculous phantasm spam without nerfing things that impact everyone else? Chrono does not need to be putting out this many phantasms. The sustain will be less of a problem when they don't have endless phantasms and clones to work with.

The sustain is relatively low now. Problem is the ridiculous survivability.

[rank eleven monk.9502]

*double post*

[Arlette.9684]

@"rank eleven monk.9502"

 

I do use BD on a few specs, neither of which is Chrono. Mesmer as a whole is lackluster in the stability department. I feel like it was a design choice, considering the amount of stun breaks that we have gracing our utility slots and everyone’s favorite GM trait. But taking away the build option for those of us, that want to try and build a different way, hardly seems like good development choice.

 

As for the overkill. It would be an overkill on the player’s part, if you dump all your shatters mindlessly to secure a single stomp. Leaving yourself open for counter burst from a different opponent.

 

I do agree that the vigor and fury can take a shave tho.

[Requiem.1865]

It is kind of sad for PVE get CS nerfed its almost impossible in raid/fractal to get very good chrono buffer. Now it will be worst again. They should consider split CS from gamemode again. Specialy chrono tank is one of the most difficult job for many raider and they are rare to find in a group. I been playing tank since raid release and im stock in that job cause poeple are not very good to play it.

[Simeonus.9237]

I wouldn't mind 100s, but those extra 5s screwed my rotation. 90s was perfect, 100s would be fine but anything more is simply annoying. Same as change to lava font cooldown was for elementalists.

[rank eleven monk.9502]

> @"Arlette.9684" said:

> @"rank eleven monk.9502"

>

> I do use BD on a few specs, neither of which is Chrono. Mesmer as a whole is lackluster in the stability department. I feel like it was a design choice, considering the amount of stun breaks that we have gracing our utility slots and everyone’s favorite GM trait. But taking away the build option for those of us, that want to try and build a different way, hardly seems like good development choice.

>

> As for the overkill. It would be an overkill on the player’s part, if you dump all your shatters mindlessly to secure a single stomp. Leaving yourself open for counter burst from a different opponent.

>

> I do agree that the vigor and fury can take a shave tho.

Vigor and Fury are the least of the problems, the changes would mean exactly nothing without further shaving.

 

I will change the wording then: no current top-tier viable mesmer build uses BD except Chrono bunker.

 

I get your point though. Problem is, if we want to get Chrono bunker in line with other specs WITHOUT further nerfing BD and Illusionary Defense, it would require a huge amount of workarounds. And most likely in the end, directly or indirectly, your other builds will get hit even worse. That's how I see it. These 2 traits are the very core of the bunker chrono, everything else is just a plus (sustain and phantasm spam, for example)

 

> @"Requiem.1865" said:

> It is kind of sad for PVE get CS nerfed its almost impossible in raid/fractal to get very good chrono buffer. Now it will be worst again. They should consider split CS from gamemode again. Specialy chrono tank is one of the most difficult job for many raider and they are rare to find in a group. I been playing tank since raid release and im stock in that job cause poeple are not very good to play it.

I'm fairly sure the CS nerf was more intended for PvE than PvP (otherwise they would have split it).

 

In pvp, the recharge nerf changes exactly nothing.

[Hibiskus.8294]

I just read: Increased the projectile speed from Siren´s call : 50%.......

I thought: wow a buff for trident cool, then there must be something for staff too, i read the notes, but no changes for staff auto-attack....

 

I mean, tridents siren´s call has a cast-time from 1/2, it bounces 3 times, so it is something like the staff projectiles and overall i found the projectile speed from trident already better than staff (now it is good)...

 

Staffs winds of chaos however has a cast-time from 3/4, it bounces too, but just 2 times and the projectile speed is a joke...i never wished for something else, than that they change the projectile speed and the cast-time from the staff auto-attack to something like the trident....a cast-time from 1/2 and faster projectiles....

 

also note that trident gives always bleeding what i find really good and staff can give bleeding OR burning OR torment wich makes it harder to stack condis, also with the lower projectile speed and longer cast-time...well i wish i could use the trident just for the auto-attack on land...JUST for the auto-attack, ok it would be easier to make some little changes to staff, but i begin to think that that will never happen....

 

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Hibiskus.8294" said:

> I just read: Increased the projectile speed from Siren´s call : 50%.......

> I thought: wow a buff for trident cool, then there must be something for staff too, i read the notes, but no changes for staff auto-attack....

>

> I mean, tridents siren´s call has a cast-time from 1/2, it bounces 3 times, so it is something like the staff projectiles and overall i found the projectile speed from trident already better than staff (now it is good)...

>

> Staffs winds of chaos however has a cast-time from 3/4, it bounces too, but just 2 times and the projectile speed is a joke...i never wished for something else, than that they change the projectile speed and the cast-time from the staff auto-attack to something like the trident....a cast-time from 1/2 and faster projectiles....

>

> also note that trident gives always bleeding what i find really good and staff can give bleeding OR burning OR torment wich makes it harder to stack condis, also with the lower projectile speed and longer cast-time...well i wish i could use the trident just for the auto-attack on land...JUST for the auto-attack, ok it would be easier to make some little changes to staff, but i begin to think that that will never happen....

>

 

Yeah would be nice if staff's projectile speed could be increased like trident.