The State of PvE balance

[Feanor.2358]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > So go on, let's nerf the damage of Elementalists so Necromancers can play "catch up" and then everyone can bow to our Mesmer overlords, regardless of content.

>

> I never said nerf Ele's damage. I'd be fine with reducing their power crept utility and utility skills however that for no real reason have seen nothing but buffs.

>

> Also i don't disagree that mesmer is overloaded currently, it doesn't however invalidate the sheer fact that ele was and to some extent still is a jack of all when it comes to PvE.

>

 

Nope, it isn't. Ele only ever exists in pve meta as a damage dealer. Its healing capabilities are irrelevant, both because of the modest amounts required by the content and the FAR superior offensive support the Druids provide while healing. Its defensive support capabilities are irrelevant. Its sustain is irrelevant. The only thing of any real value an ele can offer is damage. High potential, high risk, easily lost to pretty much everything. Except now we have other builds with pretty much the same potential for much less risk.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Nope, it isn't. Ele only ever exists in pve meta as a damage dealer. Its healing capabilities are irrelevant, both because of the modest amounts required by the content and the FAR superior offensive support the Druids provide while healing. Its defensive support capabilities are irrelevant. Its sustain is irrelevant. The only thing of any real value an ele can offer is damage. High potential, high risk, easily lost to pretty much everything. Except now we have other builds with pretty much the same potential for much less risk.

 

You keep telling yourself that. It's fine for you to believe it, but your 8 seconds in water attunement aren't any more damaging to your numbers than just playing lower DPS specs.

[Einlanzer.1627]

> @"gateless gate.8406" said:

> Coming from WoW, it's very strange to see such a massive gap between DPS in this game.

>

> Here's the breakdown of DPS classes in my previous MMO: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/17#

> There is only a 15% difference between the best and worst specs. Removing the absolute best and absolute worst, that difference shrinks to just 10%. Compare that to the 24% difference between a GW2 Necro's 29k and a Weaver's 36k. For kicks, compare it to the 52% (!!!) difference between 29k and 44k. You cannot have a class doing 52% more damage than another.

>

> Arguments like "class X is harder to play than Y so therefore it NEEDS to do more DPS" is a fallacy, as (1) any gameplay difficulty is often both overstated and easily overcome by good players, and (2) raid groups will always demand the best and reject the worst, especially when you have sites like metabattle and tools like DPS meters. And that's really the most toxic effect of egregious balancing: Players who have spent possibly hundreds of hours on Necro are simply locked out of a significant portion of game content.

 

You have to understand that this isn't WoW. This game doesn't use the trinity, so "DPS" is a softer role than it is in WoW. The amount of damage you deal isn't the only thing that matters even as a damage dealer. Eles sacrifice a lot of utility and mobility to reach those numbers compared to other classes AND they are more fragile and harder to maintain those numbers with. It probably doesn't justify a 50% difference, but it does justify some difference - especially considering you can't only balance classes around raids since that's only a small (or nonexistent) part of the end game for a lot of players.

 

If Necros did the same damage as Eles, they would become more valuable than Eles because they are easier to play, have more survivability, and can do all quite a bit while maintaining their damage, including providing barrier. And that's not even getting into the fact that Necros are already much better than Eles for general play due to their attrition.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > Nope, it isn't. Ele only ever exists in pve meta as a damage dealer. Its healing capabilities are irrelevant, both because of the modest amounts required by the content and the FAR superior offensive support the Druids provide while healing. Its defensive support capabilities are irrelevant. Its sustain is irrelevant. The only thing of any real value an ele can offer is damage. High potential, high risk, easily lost to pretty much everything. Except now we have other builds with pretty much the same potential for much less risk.

>

> You keep telling yourself that. It's fine for you to believe it, but your 8 seconds in water attunement aren't any more damaging to your numbers than just playing lower DPS specs.

 

The most useful thing my 8 seconds in Water can do is drop a pulsing cleanse. The healing in non-existent because my gear has zero healing power, as I'm sure you're well aware. And the cleanse itself is quite redundant, whenever cleanses are needed druids just run healing spring. But you keep telling yourself a full zerk ele is also a valid healer. :lol:

[Lord Kreegan.8123]

It's amazing that, when talking about PvE balance, supposedly it's all about raiding... even though raiding populations in pretty much all MMORPGs constitute only 5% or less of the total population.

You can't balance a game around what a very small part of the population wants. ANet would be foolish to even consider doing so.

Expand your argument. Like: "_Clothies in the open world can take on champions solo, but medium armored and heavily armored classes don't have a snowball's chance in Hades..._" because DPS is king and queen and prince and princess and duke and duchess in this game.

If you don't have tunnel-/funnel-vision when you discuss the game, you might make a better argument.

[Snowjob.7245]

> @"gateless gate.8406" said:

> Coming from WoW, it's very strange to see such a massive gap between DPS in this game.

>

> Here's the breakdown of DPS classes in my previous MMO: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/17#

> There is only a 15% difference between the best and worst specs. Removing the absolute best and absolute worst, that difference shrinks to just 10%. Compare that to the 24% difference between a GW2 Necro's 29k and a Weaver's 36k. For kicks, compare it to the 52% (!!!) difference between 29k and 44k. You cannot have a class doing 52% more damage than another.

>

> Arguments like "class X is harder to play than Y so therefore it NEEDS to do more DPS" is a fallacy, as (1) any gameplay difficulty is often both overstated and easily overcome by good players, and (2) raid groups will always demand the best and reject the worst, especially when you have sites like metabattle and tools like DPS meters. And that's really the most toxic effect of egregious balancing: Players who have spent possibly hundreds of hours on Necro are simply locked out of a significant portion of game content.

 

I'd like to point out that you are comparing golem benchmarks to actual raid data.

 

If you take a look at actual raid data the differences are not nearly as extreme.

https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats

 

 

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Lord Kreegan.8123" said:

> It's amazing that, when talking about PvE balance, supposedly it's all about raiding... even though raiding populations in pretty much all MMORPGs constitute only 5% or less of the total population.

> You can't balance a game around what a very small part of the population wants. ANet would be foolish to even consider doing so.

> Expand your argument. Like: "_Clothies in the open world can take on champions solo, but medium armored and heavily armored classes don't have a snowball's chance in Hades..._" because DPS is king and queen and prince and princess and duke and duchess in this game.

> If you don't have tunnel-/funnel-vision when you discuss the game, you might make a better argument.

 

And you want to balance based on open world? In ow is everything balanced, everything dies as you look at it no matter what class you play.

[Xillllix.3485]

The issue with balance is the nonexistent build variety, the skill requirements and complexity to achieve maximum DPS, standing still vs moving foes, health pools and buffs.

 

The elementalist has been an misunderstood class which has lost its identity. It's not about numbers, it's about gameplay and the various contribution of each class.

 

Since Raids are just a DPS race the class design took a wrong turn and for many of us ele who were there in the GvG era in the first year following the launch the game is ruined.

[Bakeneko.5826]

> @"mauried.5608" said:

> Put your hand up if you would like to see the class / classes that you like playing the most get nerfed, so that there is better balance with all the other classes that you dont like playing.

>

 

I main Elementalist and I want weaver nerfed, like weaver traits/skills, without core ele or tempest suffering, since problem is weaver, not ele itself

[JackassTheX.6351]

> @"Bakeneko.5826" said:

> > @"mauried.5608" said:

> > Put your hand up if you would like to see the class / classes that you like playing the most get nerfed, so that there is better balance with all the other classes that you dont like playing.

> >

>

> I main Elementalist and I want weaver nerfed, like weaver traits/skills, without core ele or tempest suffering, since problem is weaver, not ele itself

 

^This. If you look at traits such as Swift Revenge, Elemental Polyphony, and most of all, Elements of Rage, you get

 

Swift Revenge: +7% while under the effect of swiftness or superspeed - which you get from attuning to Air, Dual Attacks (which you spam all the time), and if not, party can provide swiftness

Elemental Polyphony: gives +120 Power if attuned to Fire (which you always are). Since wiki states power-to-damage relationship is linear by a factor of 1000 (i.e. if you deal 50 damage with 1000 Power, you deal 100 damage with 2000 Power), that means that 1000 Power means +100% damage; 120 power thus means +12% damage. I'm not sure if this is how it really works but I think the math behind it is simple enough.

Elements of Rage: true that it only lasts eight seconds while double-attuned, but it still just gives 10% extra damage outright for that time seconds (just attune after casting any high-damage spell)

 

Total boost: 7+12+10 = +29% damage! Why not nerf that? They already did something similar with Weakness and Superior Elements by adding cooldown to Weakness and disabling other weavers from overriding it. There are so many options - just decrease the damage output of EoR outright to 7%, or nerf it to 5% and add a second or two duration; decrease the Power gain from Elemental Polyphony from +120 to +100, decrease the damage of Swift Revenge or reduce the swiftness gained (which can be nullified by group switfness anyway), etc. Fun fact: NONE of the traits I mentioned have been touched since release.

 

I agree wholeheartedly - I love playing Weaver for the crazy, fool-dropping potential it has but it seemed too much and I was sure ANet was going to nerf something sooner or later. I'm just surprised ANet chose to nerf a core ele _skill_ of all things. The traits are what give the Weaver the oomph over a core ele - otherwise, you could just take a core ele, pop Glyph in Air attunement, attune to Fire and drop MS (I used to do this before I knew the Weaver rotation anyway), grab Lightning Hammer, hit skill 4 and spam Fireball and Lava font. It wouldn't have the same steady high damage as a Weaver because of attunement recharge, but it would still hit hard periodically.

 

 

[JackassTheX.6351]

And by the way, SnowCrows (a hardcore PvE guild with builds on their website) have updated their build pages and benchmarks and f$%k-all has changed, just as I had imagined.

[Bakeneko.5826]

> @"JackassTheX.6351" said:

> > @"Bakeneko.5826" said:

> > > @"mauried.5608" said:

> > > Put your hand up if you would like to see the class / classes that you like playing the most get nerfed, so that there is better balance with all the other classes that you dont like playing.

> > >

> >

> > I main Elementalist and I want weaver nerfed, like weaver traits/skills, without core ele or tempest suffering, since problem is weaver, not ele itself

>

> ^This. If you look at traits such as Swift Revenge, Elemental Polyphony, and most of all, Elements of Rage, you get

>

> Swift Revenge: +7% while under the effect of swiftness or superspeed - which you get from attuning to Air, Dual Attacks (which you spam all the time), and if not, party can provide swiftness

> Elemental Polyphony: gives +120 Power if attuned to Fire (which you always are). Since wiki states power-to-damage relationship is linear by a factor of 1000 (i.e. if you deal 50 damage with 1000 Power, you deal 100 damage with 2000 Power), that means that 1000 Power means +100% damage; 120 power thus means +12% damage. I'm not sure if this is how it really works but I think the math behind it is simple enough.

> Elements of Rage: true that it only lasts eight seconds while double-attuned, but it still just gives 10% extra damage outright for that time seconds (just attune after casting any high-damage spell)

>

> Total boost: 7+12+10 = +29% damage! Why not nerf that? They already did something similar with Weakness and Superior Elements by adding cooldown to Weakness and disabling other weavers from overriding it. There are so many options - just decrease the damage output of EoR outright to 7%, or nerf it to 5% and add a second or two duration; decrease the Power gain from Elemental Polyphony from +120 to +100, decrease the damage of Swift Revenge or reduce the swiftness gained (which can be nullified by group switfness anyway), etc. Fun fact: NONE of the traits I mentioned have been touched since release.

>

> I agree wholeheartedly - I love playing Weaver for the crazy, fool-dropping potential it has but it seemed too much and I was sure ANet was going to nerf something sooner or later. I'm just surprised ANet chose to nerf a core ele _skill_ of all things. The traits are what give the Weaver the oomph over a core ele - otherwise, you could just take a core ele, pop Glyph in Air attunement, attune to Fire and drop MS (I used to do this before I knew the Weaver rotation anyway), grab Lightning Hammer, hit skill 4 and spam Fireball and Lava font. It wouldn't have the same steady high damage as a Weaver because of attunement recharge, but it would still hit hard periodically.

>

>

 

This. Meteor shower nerf solved nothing, apart from Tempest and core Ele getting lower damage.

[ArthurDent.9538]

My 2 cents on the ele dps situation is not that ele is op, but rather that pve encounters are mostly too basic and too easy to be able to exploit staff ele's extreme weaknesses. If staff ele was really overpowered, it would be super strong in pvp too, however it is an absolute joke that struggles to land any damage before being killed in the blink of an eye because enemies in pvp are much more mobile, and don't stand in pulsing aoe fields for long at all, and they are also much better at counter pressuring threats. So ele is really only good against foes that stand still in lava fonts and ignore the ele while it is free casting but this strength is counterbalanced by struggling against anything that isn't a glorified dps golem. Surprise surprise glorified dps golem basically sums up every single raid boss except for Matthias which it is no coincidence just so happens to be the boss that elementalist struggles with the most by far. In fact if you check GW2 raidar literally all 8 of the other classes have a build that out dps's weaver on Matthias (https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-16115) because he moves around a decent amount, and the passive damage makes it very hard to survive on ele compared to the more robust builds. Ele isn't op, we just need more mobile and dangerous bosses like Matthias so that eles will need to sacrifice dps just to survive.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > So go on, let's nerf the damage of Elementalists so Necromancers can play "catch up" and then everyone can bow to our Mesmer overlords, regardless of content.

> >

> > I never said nerf Ele's damage. I'd be fine with reducing their power crept utility and utility skills however that for no real reason have seen nothing but buffs.

> >

> > Also i don't disagree that mesmer is overloaded currently, it doesn't however invalidate the sheer fact that ele was and to some extent still is a jack of all when it comes to PvE.

> >

>

> Nope, it isn't. Ele only ever exists in pve meta as a damage dealer. Its healing capabilities are irrelevant, both because of the modest amounts required by the content and the FAR superior offensive support the Druids provide while healing. Its defensive support capabilities are irrelevant. Its sustain is irrelevant. The only thing of any real value an ele can offer is damage. High potential, high risk, easily lost to pretty much everything. Except now we have other builds with pretty much the same potential for much less risk.

 

If you are talking meta as strictly best builds and comp possible (so no actual healer) then yes however if you were to get a dedicated healer you would in reality grab either a heal ele or firebrand as they are both better healers while giving more safety nets to the entire group.

 

It really depends on what you class as meta, whether you mean the absolute top builds, comp, played by the best, then yes ele is only a damage dealer however scourges are mostly replacing ele where possible. If by meta you mean something used by a lot of regular raiders heal ele is definitely a thing and can carry incredibly hard or simply make the kill almost a sure thing even if people mess up and tank a few mechanics.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > So go on, let's nerf the damage of Elementalists so Necromancers can play "catch up" and then everyone can bow to our Mesmer overlords, regardless of content.

> > >

> > > I never said nerf Ele's damage. I'd be fine with reducing their power crept utility and utility skills however that for no real reason have seen nothing but buffs.

> > >

> > > Also i don't disagree that mesmer is overloaded currently, it doesn't however invalidate the sheer fact that ele was and to some extent still is a jack of all when it comes to PvE.

> > >

> >

> > Nope, it isn't. Ele only ever exists in pve meta as a damage dealer. Its healing capabilities are irrelevant, both because of the modest amounts required by the content and the FAR superior offensive support the Druids provide while healing. Its defensive support capabilities are irrelevant. Its sustain is irrelevant. The only thing of any real value an ele can offer is damage. High potential, high risk, easily lost to pretty much everything. Except now we have other builds with pretty much the same potential for much less risk.

>

> If you are talking meta as strictly best builds and comp possible (so no actual healer) then yes however if you were to get a dedicated healer you would in reality grab either a heal ele or firebrand as they are both better healers while giving more safety nets to the entire group.

>

> It really depends on what you class as meta, whether you mean the absolute top builds, comp, played by the best, then yes ele is only a damage dealer however scourges are mostly replacing ele where possible. If by meta you mean something used by a lot of regular raiders heal ele is definitely a thing and can carry incredibly hard or simply make the kill almost a sure thing even if people mess up and tank a few mechanics.

 

Mate, my ele has healing gear in her inventory and I sometimes play heal tempest for my team. It's a great healer, but no pug or other static I would want to join will ever take me as one. *Because it has no offensive support.* Zero. Nada. It's not about being optimal, it's about being usable. And "you can use it with your friends" or "you can use it where it doesn't matter" is *not* "usable" in a MMO, sorry. Not by a long shot.

[JackassTheX.6351]

> @"Bakeneko.5826" said:

> > @"JackassTheX.6351" said:

> > > @"Bakeneko.5826" said:

> > > > @"mauried.5608" said:

> > > > Put your hand up if you would like to see the class / classes that you like playing the most get nerfed, so that there is better balance with all the other classes that you dont like playing.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I main Elementalist and I want weaver nerfed, like weaver traits/skills, without core ele or tempest suffering, since problem is weaver, not ele itself

> >

> > ^This. If you look at traits such as Swift Revenge, Elemental Polyphony, and most of all, Elements of Rage, you get

> >

> > Swift Revenge: +7% while under the effect of swiftness or superspeed - which you get from attuning to Air, Dual Attacks (which you spam all the time), and if not, party can provide swiftness

> > Elemental Polyphony: gives +120 Power if attuned to Fire (which you always are). Since wiki states power-to-damage relationship is linear by a factor of 1000 (i.e. if you deal 50 damage with 1000 Power, you deal 100 damage with 2000 Power), that means that 1000 Power means +100% damage; 120 power thus means +12% damage. I'm not sure if this is how it really works but I think the math behind it is simple enough.

> > Elements of Rage: true that it only lasts eight seconds while double-attuned, but it still just gives 10% extra damage outright for that time seconds (just attune after casting any high-damage spell)

> >

> > Total boost: 7+12+10 = +29% damage! Why not nerf that? They already did something similar with Weakness and Superior Elements by adding cooldown to Weakness and disabling other weavers from overriding it. There are so many options - just decrease the damage output of EoR outright to 7%, or nerf it to 5% and add a second or two duration; decrease the Power gain from Elemental Polyphony from +120 to +100, decrease the damage of Swift Revenge or reduce the swiftness gained (which can be nullified by group switfness anyway), etc. Fun fact: NONE of the traits I mentioned have been touched since release.

> >

> > I agree wholeheartedly - I love playing Weaver for the crazy, fool-dropping potential it has but it seemed too much and I was sure ANet was going to nerf something sooner or later. I'm just surprised ANet chose to nerf a core ele _skill_ of all things. The traits are what give the Weaver the oomph over a core ele - otherwise, you could just take a core ele, pop Glyph in Air attunement, attune to Fire and drop MS (I used to do this before I knew the Weaver rotation anyway), grab Lightning Hammer, hit skill 4 and spam Fireball and Lava font. It wouldn't have the same steady high damage as a Weaver because of attunement recharge, but it would still hit hard periodically.

> >

> >

>

> This. Meteor shower nerf solved nothing, apart from Tempest and core Ele getting lower damage.

 

I'm glad I'm not alone in that sentiment.

 

Just for comparison: I have a Warrior alt and I went through a core meta build to see how much bonus damage they get. Actually a bit more than the Ele in pure numbers. But let's have a look what you need to do for them to pop:

 

Empowered: deal increased damage for every boon on you. Damage increase +1%. In raids, this is hardly a problem because there is plentiful boon upkeep (hell, warrior is one of the classes responsible for Might). I did not include a similar Ele trait (Bountiful Power) in the combinations above because I used numbers from the Air variant (which grants swiftness to proc Swift Revenge).

 

Pinnacle of Strength: Might applied to you grants more (+10) power. I checked the forums and apparently it means +10 per stack, which is an additional +250, and going by my math above, that means +25%?! BTW, can someone check if this assumption I'm making (+1000 Power = damage x2, ergo +250 Power is damage x0.25) is true?

 

Warrior's Sprint: another +dmg (7%) with swiftness boon; however, unlike Ele, it is swiftness ONLY and AFAIK you don't have much self-swiftness as a Warrior, so you are entirely dependant on party boon grant

 

These are the traits used in the meta build, and together, they would (in theory) grant +32% damage (under effects of swiftness and might and other boons). Ele gets a simple +29% damage increase - and while 7% of that is, admittedly, under the effects of swiftness as well, it is MUCH, much easier to grant it to yourself, not to mention party upkeep if present. Now, I know the Warrior is specced for support in this build, and you could definitely spec him for more damage bonus via traits (+10% greatsword increase etc.), but it serves as a good example on how you can make a powerful class with reasonable limitations to said power.

 

ALSO, I just realized I didn't even factor in Bolt to the Heart above, which grants an additional 20% damage increase when enemies are below 50%. That grants the Ele +49% when enemies are below 50%. What the Skritt, seriously. I did these calculations for peace of mind, as in, "it's not that bad", but now I'm even more ticked off. Of ALL the traits I mentioned, they could've nerfed any or several, and they chose to gimp an iconic core Ele skill, because... why again!? This makes no sense. Like the OP said, I main Weaver most of the time (with Scourge and Holosmith as first and second alts), and I'll be the first to admit this is way too much.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > So go on, let's nerf the damage of Elementalists so Necromancers can play "catch up" and then everyone can bow to our Mesmer overlords, regardless of content.

> > > >

> > > > I never said nerf Ele's damage. I'd be fine with reducing their power crept utility and utility skills however that for no real reason have seen nothing but buffs.

> > > >

> > > > Also i don't disagree that mesmer is overloaded currently, it doesn't however invalidate the sheer fact that ele was and to some extent still is a jack of all when it comes to PvE.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Nope, it isn't. Ele only ever exists in pve meta as a damage dealer. Its healing capabilities are irrelevant, both because of the modest amounts required by the content and the FAR superior offensive support the Druids provide while healing. Its defensive support capabilities are irrelevant. Its sustain is irrelevant. The only thing of any real value an ele can offer is damage. High potential, high risk, easily lost to pretty much everything. Except now we have other builds with pretty much the same potential for much less risk.

> >

> > If you are talking meta as strictly best builds and comp possible (so no actual healer) then yes however if you were to get a dedicated healer you would in reality grab either a heal ele or firebrand as they are both better healers while giving more safety nets to the entire group.

> >

> > It really depends on what you class as meta, whether you mean the absolute top builds, comp, played by the best, then yes ele is only a damage dealer however scourges are mostly replacing ele where possible. If by meta you mean something used by a lot of regular raiders heal ele is definitely a thing and can carry incredibly hard or simply make the kill almost a sure thing even if people mess up and tank a few mechanics.

>

> Mate, my ele has healing gear in her inventory and I sometimes play heal tempest for my team. It's a great healer, but no pug or other static I would want to join will ever take me as one. *Because it has no offensive support.* Zero. Nada. It's not about being optimal, it's about being usable. And "you can use it with your friends" or "you can use it where it doesn't matter" is *not* "usable" in a MMO, sorry. Not by a long shot.

 

As I said, if you’re running the absolute best builds with best people no you wouldn’t however if you were running with new people I’d actually laugh at you for not bringing a heal ele or heal FB instead of a 6th dps. Any experienced raider knows that you don’t force a 99th percentile comp onto people who cannot play at that level.

 

It all depends what you consider meta, the builds and comp run by the top 0.1% or the builds and comp run by the majority. Just watch any streamer, they do switch to heal ele and when joining groups that are asking for a healer there’s no issue because the Druid is 1 spot and no longer the healer it was.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > > So go on, let's nerf the damage of Elementalists so Necromancers can play "catch up" and then everyone can bow to our Mesmer overlords, regardless of content.

> > > > >

> > > > > I never said nerf Ele's damage. I'd be fine with reducing their power crept utility and utility skills however that for no real reason have seen nothing but buffs.

> > > > >

> > > > > Also i don't disagree that mesmer is overloaded currently, it doesn't however invalidate the sheer fact that ele was and to some extent still is a jack of all when it comes to PvE.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Nope, it isn't. Ele only ever exists in pve meta as a damage dealer. Its healing capabilities are irrelevant, both because of the modest amounts required by the content and the FAR superior offensive support the Druids provide while healing. Its defensive support capabilities are irrelevant. Its sustain is irrelevant. The only thing of any real value an ele can offer is damage. High potential, high risk, easily lost to pretty much everything. Except now we have other builds with pretty much the same potential for much less risk.

> > >

> > > If you are talking meta as strictly best builds and comp possible (so no actual healer) then yes however if you were to get a dedicated healer you would in reality grab either a heal ele or firebrand as they are both better healers while giving more safety nets to the entire group.

> > >

> > > It really depends on what you class as meta, whether you mean the absolute top builds, comp, played by the best, then yes ele is only a damage dealer however scourges are mostly replacing ele where possible. If by meta you mean something used by a lot of regular raiders heal ele is definitely a thing and can carry incredibly hard or simply make the kill almost a sure thing even if people mess up and tank a few mechanics.

> >

> > Mate, my ele has healing gear in her inventory and I sometimes play heal tempest for my team. It's a great healer, but no pug or other static I would want to join will ever take me as one. *Because it has no offensive support.* Zero. Nada. It's not about being optimal, it's about being usable. And "you can use it with your friends" or "you can use it where it doesn't matter" is *not* "usable" in a MMO, sorry. Not by a long shot.

>

> As I said, if you’re running the absolute best builds with best people no you wouldn’t however if you were running with new people I’d actually laugh at you for not bringing a heal ele or heal FB instead of a 6th dps. Any experienced raider knows that you don’t force a 99th percentile comp onto people who cannot play at that level.

>

> It all depends what you consider meta, the builds and comp run by the top 0.1% or the builds and comp run by the majority. Just watch any streamer, they do switch to heal ele and when joining groups that are asking for a healer there’s no issue because the Druid is 1 spot and no longer the healer it was.

 

Let me put it this way so you'd understand me.

 

Every group I'd *want* to join as a pug will *not want* me as a heal ele. I don't care if a bunch of newbies would welcome me. I don't care what streamers do. I care about my own experience, which would be quite sad if I tried to play heal ele. Beside the shoehorned role of golem kiter on Dhuum.