Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > The math is correct - you're not accounting for initiative regeneration and cast times. > > Unless under the effects of quickness, passive initiative regeneration will cover the remaining initiative while making those three attacks as this requires 1.5s for the three attacks without accounting for precast and aftercast delays or the animation to acquire stealth and cast DJ which is free. Aside from some kind of Haste + Blinding Powder combo, there's physically no way for a thief to not regen its initiative to max from M7 with Skirmisher's Shot. Even if using DT as a source, if using SScope, there are .75*3+.75 = 3s of animations without account for pre-cast/aftercast delays from skill use alone which sets the thief back a whopping... 2 initiative at the end with M7. That's assuming DT is just completely spammed with zero attack delay. So the thief after the DJ is <= 1 initiative actually spent using M7's recovery. > > So all we've really concluded here is that unless you can negate all of the damage leading up to closing in on the thief, it can max malice every 4s, ignores single blocks and blinds via DT as far as gaining malice goes, and doesn't need to kneel for any purpose while still out-pacing the rotation on every build in the game that doesn't have permanent vigor with an unblockable nuke. > > It's extremely poorly-thought-out and offers way, way less counterplay than prior. You were not including passive regeneration. But placing passive regeneration into the assumption makes me curious if you have ever played thief. There's a very good reason why our builds are so limited. And it's because trickery gives a few more points of ini, and ini restore on steal. Even then, we have to be careful. If you depend on your passive regeneration, and you run out you will find that people will brutally punish you for it higher up the ladder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darknessz.9650 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 its said when everyone here thief de needs a nerf lool first of all if you die by a DE your a noob and secondly damage should be nerf slightly then again, thief DE ARE THE WEAKEST ELITE CLASS FOCUSING ALL ON POWER BUT HAVE LOW HEALTH NO CONDI CLEAN NO ROTATION AND THEY ALL DIE IN 1-3 HITS!!!! SHORTBOW 5 SKILL will save your ASS 25% of the time but the CONDI FROM ATTACKS WILL KILL YOU NOTE 11k HP LOL yet you all FAIL TO KILL A DE REQUESTING TO NERF THEM ONLY DE NERF SHOULD BE SWORD / P/p and slight nerf on rifle burst ggwp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat.2680 Posted May 10, 2018 Author Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > Gained Unblockable. > > Let’s look at your claims: > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > @"Urejt.5648" said: > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight > > You forgot projectile destruction Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile. > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > @"Turk.5460" said: > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > @"Urejt.5648" said: > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight > > > > You forgot projectile destruction > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile. > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > And what's wrong with dodging, interrupts, or breaking line of sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. the trade off is that you now have an extra tell with the stealth requirement and that we lost our unblockable other damage skill, wich was better as it didnt reveal you on not hitting, letting you spamm it till you hit. or are you against multiple effects on 1 skill/trait? well then we got to delete half the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat.2680 Posted May 10, 2018 Author Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said: > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight > > > > > > You forgot projectile destruction > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile. > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > Nope it doesn’t promote spam since one, DJ doesn’t use Initiative outside of building Malice and since you can’t use DJ since without the use of other skills or even get the best damage potential from it with out using a minimum of 4 attack (with crits) or maximum of 7 skills (without crits). Yeah so spammable, might want to look up the definition of spammable in regards to Video Games. Yeah it’s super clear what the issue is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said: > > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight > > > > > > > > You forgot projectile destruction > > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile. > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. because the bullet is really fast and shadow meld has only 5 second cooldown i guess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said: > > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight > > > > > > > > You forgot projectile destruction > > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile. > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. Let me help you understand something. You're on a board of thieves, mostly mains, saying that dodging is not enough. When it is pretty much the only defense we have and ever use. Against all the other shit we have to fight. Also to cancel DJ you need to dodge roll, which burns a defense. DJ also reveals you... So... You then need to bust an elite. > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said: > > > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight > > > > > > > > > > You forgot projectile destruction > > > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile. > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. > > because the bullet is really fast and shadow meld has only 5 second cooldown i guess? 45 for a charge to come back. 5 to use a charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat.2680 Posted May 10, 2018 Author Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > Nope it doesn’t promote spam since one, DJ doesn’t use Initiative outside of building Malice and since you can’t use DJ since without the use of other skills or even get the best damage potential from it with out using a minimum of 4 attack (with crits) or maximum of 7 skills (without crits). > > Yeah so spammable, might want to look up the definition of spammable in regards to Video Games. > > Yeah it’s super clear what the issue is. > If your deadeye build doesn't crit after using 7 weapon skills, you might want to reconsider your gear/trait choices. If using Malicious Intent (the other two are trash for PvP/WvW) then only 3 crits are needed to reach 7 stacks of malice for the ini refund from the new M7. Stealth is not much of a gate for Death's Judgment considering deadeye's access to stealth. > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said: > > > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight > > > > > > > > > > You forgot projectile destruction > > > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile. > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. > > Let me help you understand something. You're on a board of thieves, mostly mains, saying that dodging is not enough. When it is pretty much the only defense we have and ever use. Against all the other kitten we have to fight. I posted the thread on the thief forum because it's where the thread would've ended up anyway. As far as thief mains disagreeing because they can't block or reflect, daredevil has a good block. And the trick elite has a much lower cooldown than it previously did as far as reflects go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. > > > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. > > > > because the bullet is really fast and shadow meld has only 5 second cooldown i guess? > > 45 for a charge to come back. 5 to use a charge. ty, i do know that but he made it sound like i will hit most of the time and if once in a year i maybe wont hit my super OP beam of doom, then i am safe because i can use elite wich is soo fast, it wont ever be interrupted wich puts it on longer cd then the remaining reveal :D i simply dont understand how he can complain about DJ now with a stealth requirement. if you want to oneshot now you will use backstab , better damage and more reliable to hit, no reveal on fail. DJ is now more part of an active playstyle were you shortly go into stealth when m7 procs to try a burst or rather force an evade to hit more TRB after. if you just go shortly in stealth and attack with rifle in between, you got enough TRB/spotters to reflect already and can use that dodge for DJ. i mean he made a post because perfectionist stacking to 25 might before a backstab was soo op before patch - now MBackstab hits way more damage without any might but no thread about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat.2680 Posted May 10, 2018 Author Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said: > > > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight > > > > > > > > > > You forgot projectile destruction > > > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile. > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. > > Let me help you understand something. You're on a board of thieves, mostly mains, saying that dodging is not enough. When it is pretty much the only defense we have and ever use. Against all the other kitten we have to fight. > > Also to cancel DJ you need to dodge roll, which burns a defense. DJ also reveals you... So... You then need to bust an elite. > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said: > > > > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight > > > > > > > > > > > > You forgot projectile destruction > > > > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile. > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. > > > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. > > > > because the bullet is really fast and shadow meld has only 5 second cooldown i guess? > > 45 for a charge to come back. 5 to use a charge. Stowing your weapon will also cancel the shot without any malice lost. You do still get the Revealed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > > > > Nope it doesn’t promote spam since one, DJ doesn’t use Initiative outside of building Malice and since you can’t use DJ since without the use of other skills or even get the best damage potential from it with out using a minimum of 4 attack (with crits) or maximum of 7 skills (without crits). > > > > Yeah so spammable, might want to look up the definition of spammable in regards to Video Games. > > > > Yeah it’s super clear what the issue is. > > > > If your deadeye build doesn't crit after using 7 weapon skills, you might want to reconsider your gear/trait choices. If using Malicious Intent (the other two are trash for PvP/WvW) then only 3 crits are needed to reach 7 stacks of malice for the ini refund from the new M7. Stealth is not much of a gate for Death's Judgment considering deadeye's access to stealth. > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said: > > > > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight > > > > > > > > > > > > You forgot projectile destruction > > > > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile. > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. > > > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. > > > > Let me help you understand something. You're on a board of thieves, mostly mains, saying that dodging is not enough. When it is pretty much the only defense we have and ever use. Against all the other kitten we have to fight. > > I posted the thread on the thief forum because it's where the thread would've ended up anyway. As far as thief mains disagreeing because they can't block or reflect, daredevil has a good block. And the trick elite has a much lower cooldown than it previously did as far as reflects go. Ooooh wooow. Such a good point! A single block in utility for an elite profession that can be used once a bluemoon, and not at all when anything other than daredevil. It's such a stroooooong point of the kit. And not the three dodges on endurance, and two on staff, and dodge traits, and rune for critbon dodge. Amazing argument! > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. > > > > > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. > > > > > > because the bullet is really fast and shadow meld has only 5 second cooldown i guess? > > > > 45 for a charge to come back. 5 to use a charge. > > ty, i do know that but he made it sound like i will hit most of the time and if once in a year i maybe wont hit my super OP beam of doom, then i am safe because i can use elite wich is soo fast, it wont ever be interrupted wich puts it on longer cd then the remaining reveal :D > > i simply dont understand how he can complain about DJ now with a stealth requirement. if you want to oneshot now you will use backstab , better damage and more reliable to hit, no reveal on fail. DJ is now more part of an active playstyle were you shortly go into stealth when m7 procs to try a burst or rather force an evade to hit more TRB after. if you just go shortly in stealth and attack with rifle in between, you got enough TRB/spotters to reflect already and can use that dodge for DJ. > i mean he made a post because perfectionist stacking to 25 might before a backstab was soo op before patch - now MBackstab hits way more damage without any might but no thread about it. People will always complain about us and make us aound more powerful than what we actually are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said: > > > > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight > > > > > > > > > > > > You forgot projectile destruction > > > > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile. > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. > > > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. > > > > Let me help you understand something. You're on a board of thieves, mostly mains, saying that dodging is not enough. When it is pretty much the only defense we have and ever use. Against all the other kitten we have to fight. > > > > Also to cancel DJ you need to dodge roll, which burns a defense. DJ also reveals you... So... You then need to bust an elite. > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said: > > > > > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You forgot projectile destruction > > > > > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile. > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. > > > > > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. > > > > > > because the bullet is really fast and shadow meld has only 5 second cooldown i guess? > > > > 45 for a charge to come back. 5 to use a charge. > > Stowing your weapon will also cancel the shot without any malice lost. You do still get the Revealed. Stowing is risky, I've done it before. Can't use weapon skills till animation is over. With dodging while you waste a defense, you're protected for the duration. And if you have dodge benefits at least you get something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said: > > > > > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You forgot projectile destruction > > > > > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile. > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. > > > > > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. > > > > > > Let me help you understand something. You're on a board of thieves, mostly mains, saying that dodging is not enough. When it is pretty much the only defense we have and ever use. Against all the other kitten we have to fight. > > > > > > Also to cancel DJ you need to dodge roll, which burns a defense. DJ also reveals you... So... You then need to bust an elite. > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said: > > > > > > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You forgot projectile destruction > > > > > > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile. > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > > > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. > > > > > > > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. > > > > > > > > because the bullet is really fast and shadow meld has only 5 second cooldown i guess? > > > > > > 45 for a charge to come back. 5 to use a charge. > > > > Stowing your weapon will also cancel the shot without any malice lost. You do still get the Revealed. > > Stowing is risky, I've done it before. Can't use weapon skills till animation is over. With dodging while you waste a defense, you're protected for the duration. And if you have dodge benefits at least you get something you can use ESC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat.2680 Posted May 10, 2018 Author Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. > > > > > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. > > > > > > because the bullet is really fast and shadow meld has only 5 second cooldown i guess? > > > > 45 for a charge to come back. 5 to use a charge. > > ty, i do know that but he made it sound like i will hit most of the time and if once in a year i maybe wont hit my super OP beam of doom, then i am safe because i can use elite wich is soo fast, it wont ever be interrupted wich puts it on longer cd then the remaining reveal :D > > i simply dont understand how he can complain about DJ now with a stealth requirement. if you want to oneshot now you will use backstab , better damage and more reliable to hit, no reveal on fail. DJ is now more part of an active playstyle were you shortly go into stealth when m7 procs to try a burst or rather force an evade to hit more TRB after. if you just go shortly in stealth and attack with rifle in between, you got enough TRB/spotters to reflect already and can use that dodge for DJ. > i mean he made a post because perfectionist stacking to 25 might before a backstab was soo op before patch - now MBackstab hits way more damage without any might but no thread about it. Trait manipulation to get a second proc of Perfectionist is no longer possible since Perfectionist got rolled into M7. I'm sure MBackstab will be a worse offender for one-shots. Feel free to start or contribute to a thread about it. > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > > > > > > > Nope it doesn’t promote spam since one, DJ doesn’t use Initiative outside of building Malice and since you can’t use DJ since without the use of other skills or even get the best damage potential from it with out using a minimum of 4 attack (with crits) or maximum of 7 skills (without crits). > > > > > > Yeah so spammable, might want to look up the definition of spammable in regards to Video Games. > > > > > > Yeah it’s super clear what the issue is. > > > > > > > If your deadeye build doesn't crit after using 7 weapon skills, you might want to reconsider your gear/trait choices. If using Malicious Intent (the other two are trash for PvP/WvW) then only 3 crits are needed to reach 7 stacks of malice for the ini refund from the new M7. Stealth is not much of a gate for Death's Judgment considering deadeye's access to stealth. > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said: > > > > > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You forgot projectile destruction > > > > > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile. > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. > > > > > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. > > > > > > Let me help you understand something. You're on a board of thieves, mostly mains, saying that dodging is not enough. When it is pretty much the only defense we have and ever use. Against all the other kitten we have to fight. > > > > I posted the thread on the thief forum because it's where the thread would've ended up anyway. As far as thief mains disagreeing because they can't block or reflect, daredevil has a good block. And the trick elite has a much lower cooldown than it previously did as far as reflects go. > > Ooooh wooow. Such a good point! A single block in utility for an elite profession that can be used once a bluemoon, and not at all when anything other than daredevil. It's such a stroooooong point of the kit. And not the three dodges on endurance, and two on staff, and dodge traits, and rune for critbon dodge. Amazing argument! > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > > > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. > > > > > > > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. > > > > > > > > because the bullet is really fast and shadow meld has only 5 second cooldown i guess? > > > > > > 45 for a charge to come back. 5 to use a charge. > > > > ty, i do know that but he made it sound like i will hit most of the time and if once in a year i maybe wont hit my super OP beam of doom, then i am safe because i can use elite wich is soo fast, it wont ever be interrupted wich puts it on longer cd then the remaining reveal :D > > > > i simply dont understand how he can complain about DJ now with a stealth requirement. if you want to oneshot now you will use backstab , better damage and more reliable to hit, no reveal on fail. DJ is now more part of an active playstyle were you shortly go into stealth when m7 procs to try a burst or rather force an evade to hit more TRB after. if you just go shortly in stealth and attack with rifle in between, you got enough TRB/spotters to reflect already and can use that dodge for DJ. > > i mean he made a post because perfectionist stacking to 25 might before a backstab was soo op before patch - now MBackstab hits way more damage without any might but no thread about it. > > People will always complain about us and make us aound more powerful than what we actually are I never said blocking or reflecting was a main defense utilized by thieves. It is a main staple of defense for other professions who don't have the mobility or evasion of thieves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > > > > Nope it doesn’t promote spam since one, DJ doesn’t use Initiative outside of building Malice and since you can’t use DJ since without the use of other skills or even get the best damage potential from it with out using a minimum of 4 attack (with crits) or maximum of 7 skills (without crits). > > > > Yeah so spammable, might want to look up the definition of spammable in regards to Video Games. > > > > Yeah it’s super clear what the issue is. > > > > If your deadeye build doesn't crit after using 7 weapon skills, you might want to reconsider your gear/trait choices. If using Malicious Intent (the other two are trash for PvP/WvW) then only 3 crits are needed to reach 7 stacks of malice for the ini refund from the new M7. Stealth is not much of a gate for Death's Judgment considering deadeye's access to stealth. > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said: > > > > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight > > > > > > > > > > > > You forgot projectile destruction > > > > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile. > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. > > > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. > > > > Let me help you understand something. You're on a board of thieves, mostly mains, saying that dodging is not enough. When it is pretty much the only defense we have and ever use. Against all the other kitten we have to fight. > > I posted the thread on the thief forum because it's where the thread would've ended up anyway. As far as thief mains disagreeing because they can't block or reflect, daredevil has a good block. And the trick elite has a much lower cooldown than it previously did as far as reflects go. Again I said 4 min Skills uses to 7 Max skill uses, skills include more than Attacks and that accounts for crits and non crits and MI.... #rc And again the fact that Stealth is a requirement adds another skill(s) or resource to even utilize the attack which adds more into it not being spammable in the slightest, since that is another debunked claim on the OP and subsequent posts. Again it is crystal clear what the issue is and it’s not DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat.2680 Posted May 10, 2018 Author Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > > > > > > > Nope it doesn’t promote spam since one, DJ doesn’t use Initiative outside of building Malice and since you can’t use DJ since without the use of other skills or even get the best damage potential from it with out using a minimum of 4 attack (with crits) or maximum of 7 skills (without crits). > > > > > > Yeah so spammable, might want to look up the definition of spammable in regards to Video Games. > > > > > > Yeah it’s super clear what the issue is. > > > > > > > If your deadeye build doesn't crit after using 7 weapon skills, you might want to reconsider your gear/trait choices. If using Malicious Intent (the other two are trash for PvP/WvW) then only 3 crits are needed to reach 7 stacks of malice for the ini refund from the new M7. Stealth is not much of a gate for Death's Judgment considering deadeye's access to stealth. > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said: > > > > > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You forgot projectile destruction > > > > > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile. > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. > > > > > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. > > > > > > Let me help you understand something. You're on a board of thieves, mostly mains, saying that dodging is not enough. When it is pretty much the only defense we have and ever use. Against all the other kitten we have to fight. > > > > I posted the thread on the thief forum because it's where the thread would've ended up anyway. As far as thief mains disagreeing because they can't block or reflect, daredevil has a good block. And the trick elite has a much lower cooldown than it previously did as far as reflects go. > > Again I said 4 min Skills uses to 7 Max skill uses, skills include more than Attacks and that accounts for crits and non crits and MI.... #rc > > And again the fact that Stealth is a requirement adds another skill(s) or resource to even utilize the attack which adds more into it not being spammable in the slightest, since that is another debunked claim on the OP and subsequent posts. > > Again it is crystal clear what the issue is and it’s not DJ No, you specifically stated 4 minimum attacks with crits. The mark is not an attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope it doesn’t promote spam since one, DJ doesn’t use Initiative outside of building Malice and since you can’t use DJ since without the use of other skills or even get the best damage potential from it with out using a minimum of 4 attack (with crits) or maximum of 7 skills (without crits). > > > > > > > > Yeah so spammable, might want to look up the definition of spammable in regards to Video Games. > > > > > > > > Yeah it’s super clear what the issue is. > > > > > > > > > > If your deadeye build doesn't crit after using 7 weapon skills, you might want to reconsider your gear/trait choices. If using Malicious Intent (the other two are trash for PvP/WvW) then only 3 crits are needed to reach 7 stacks of malice for the ini refund from the new M7. Stealth is not much of a gate for Death's Judgment considering deadeye's access to stealth. > > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said: > > > > > > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You forgot projectile destruction > > > > > > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile. > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > > > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. > > > > > > > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. > > > > > > > > Let me help you understand something. You're on a board of thieves, mostly mains, saying that dodging is not enough. When it is pretty much the only defense we have and ever use. Against all the other kitten we have to fight. > > > > > > I posted the thread on the thief forum because it's where the thread would've ended up anyway. As far as thief mains disagreeing because they can't block or reflect, daredevil has a good block. And the trick elite has a much lower cooldown than it previously did as far as reflects go. > > > > Again I said 4 min Skills uses to 7 Max skill uses, skills include more than Attacks and that accounts for crits and non crits and MI.... #rc > > > > And again the fact that Stealth is a requirement adds another skill(s) or resource to even utilize the attack which adds more into it not being spammable in the slightest, since that is another debunked claim on the OP and subsequent posts. > > > > Again it is crystal clear what the issue is and it’s not DJ > > No, you specifically stated 4 minimum attacks with crits. The mark is not an attack. “4 attack (with crits) or maximum of 7 skills (without crits).” Directly from my post see I differentiate words since words mean things, see how I alternated to the use of Skills and not the word attack for the 7 max without crits?#rc Unlike some people I don’t use words that mean different things interchangeably. It’s even shown in the post of mine you quoted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > > > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. > > > > > > > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. > > > > > > > > because the bullet is really fast and shadow meld has only 5 second cooldown i guess? > > > > > > 45 for a charge to come back. 5 to use a charge. > > > > ty, i do know that but he made it sound like i will hit most of the time and if once in a year i maybe wont hit my super OP beam of doom, then i am safe because i can use elite wich is soo fast, it wont ever be interrupted wich puts it on longer cd then the remaining reveal :D > > > > i simply dont understand how he can complain about DJ now with a stealth requirement. if you want to oneshot now you will use backstab , better damage and more reliable to hit, no reveal on fail. DJ is now more part of an active playstyle were you shortly go into stealth when m7 procs to try a burst or rather force an evade to hit more TRB after. if you just go shortly in stealth and attack with rifle in between, you got enough TRB/spotters to reflect already and can use that dodge for DJ. > > i mean he made a post because perfectionist stacking to 25 might before a backstab was soo op before patch - now MBackstab hits way more damage without any might but no thread about it. > Trait manipulation to get a second proc of Perfectionist is no longer possible since Perfectionist got rolled into M7. > > I'm sure MBackstab will be a worse offender for one-shots. Feel free to start or contribute to a thread about it. ok so something being strong or not is not the reason for you to start a topic. then i guess you are actually fine with DJ, just dont feel like there was a trade off for the unblockable fact. well needing stealth imo is the trade off for unblockable and consuming malice the trade off for no ini. sure atleast in WvW still alot of people try to reflect/block but i think that is just habit as they got used to this for a while and they will drop this behaviour soon. because people being able to block/reflect on reaction can easily dodge it and keep the other stuff for the malice build up shots. reflecting those is more important as no hits => no malice => no beam of doom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said: > > > > > > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You forgot projectile destruction > > > > > > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile. > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > > > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. > > > > > > > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. > > > > > > > > Let me help you understand something. You're on a board of thieves, mostly mains, saying that dodging is not enough. When it is pretty much the only defense we have and ever use. Against all the other kitten we have to fight. > > > > > > > > Also to cancel DJ you need to dodge roll, which burns a defense. DJ also reveals you... So... You then need to bust an elite. > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > > > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > > > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > > > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > > > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > > > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > > > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said: > > > > > > > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You forgot projectile destruction > > > > > > > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile. > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > > > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > > > > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. > > > > > > > > > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. > > > > > > > > > > because the bullet is really fast and shadow meld has only 5 second cooldown i guess? > > > > > > > > 45 for a charge to come back. 5 to use a charge. > > > > > > Stowing your weapon will also cancel the shot without any malice lost. You do still get the Revealed. > > > > Stowing is risky, I've done it before. Can't use weapon skills till animation is over. With dodging while you waste a defense, you're protected for the duration. And if you have dodge benefits at least you get something > > you can use ESC Wait what. You can?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > > > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > > > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > > > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > > > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > > > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > > > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said: > > > > > > > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You forgot projectile destruction > > > > > > > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile. > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > > > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > > > > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. > > > > > > > > > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. > > > > > > > > > > Let me help you understand something. You're on a board of thieves, mostly mains, saying that dodging is not enough. When it is pretty much the only defense we have and ever use. Against all the other kitten we have to fight. > > > > > > > > > > Also to cancel DJ you need to dodge roll, which burns a defense. DJ also reveals you... So... You then need to bust an elite. > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > > > > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > > > > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > > > > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > > > > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > > > > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > > > > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You forgot projectile destruction > > > > > > > > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile. > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > > > > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > > > > > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. > > > > > > > > > > > > because the bullet is really fast and shadow meld has only 5 second cooldown i guess? > > > > > > > > > > 45 for a charge to come back. 5 to use a charge. > > > > > > > > Stowing your weapon will also cancel the shot without any malice lost. You do still get the Revealed. > > > > > > Stowing is risky, I've done it before. Can't use weapon skills till animation is over. With dodging while you waste a defense, you're protected for the duration. And if you have dodge benefits at least you get something > > > > you can use ESC > > > Wait what. You can?! yes also doesnt cancel kneel, like stowing would Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted May 10, 2018 Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope it doesn’t promote spam since one, DJ doesn’t use Initiative outside of building Malice and since you can’t use DJ since without the use of other skills or even get the best damage potential from it with out using a minimum of 4 attack (with crits) or maximum of 7 skills (without crits). > > > > > > > > Yeah so spammable, might want to look up the definition of spammable in regards to Video Games. > > > > > > > > Yeah it’s super clear what the issue is. > > > > > > > > > > If your deadeye build doesn't crit after using 7 weapon skills, you might want to reconsider your gear/trait choices. If using Malicious Intent (the other two are trash for PvP/WvW) then only 3 crits are needed to reach 7 stacks of malice for the ini refund from the new M7. Stealth is not much of a gate for Death's Judgment considering deadeye's access to stealth. > > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf. > > > > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes) > > > > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells. > > > > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice. > > > > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not) > > > > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal) > > > > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam. > > > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said: > > > > > > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You forgot projectile destruction > > > > > > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile. > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > > > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. > > > > > > > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. > > > > > > > > Let me help you understand something. You're on a board of thieves, mostly mains, saying that dodging is not enough. When it is pretty much the only defense we have and ever use. Against all the other kitten we have to fight. > > > > > > I posted the thread on the thief forum because it's where the thread would've ended up anyway. As far as thief mains disagreeing because they can't block or reflect, daredevil has a good block. And the trick elite has a much lower cooldown than it previously did as far as reflects go. > > > > Again I said 4 min Skills uses to 7 Max skill uses, skills include more than Attacks and that accounts for crits and non crits and MI.... #rc > > > > And again the fact that Stealth is a requirement adds another skill(s) or resource to even utilize the attack which adds more into it not being spammable in the slightest, since that is another debunked claim on the OP and subsequent posts. > > > > Again it is crystal clear what the issue is and it’s not DJ > > No, you specifically stated 4 minimum attacks with crits. The mark is not an attack. Again re-read what you stated, here I will help you out, > If your deadeye build doesn't crit after using 7 weapon skills, you might want to reconsider your gear/trait choices. Weird you stated 7 Weapon skills when I never stated weapon attacks in my quote that you responded to, I specifically stated Max of 7 skills.#rc >with out using a minimum of 4 attack (with crits) or maximum of 7 skills (without crits). Again words mean things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat.2680 Posted May 10, 2018 Author Share Posted May 10, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go. > > > > > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is. > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k. > > > > > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight. > > > > > > > > > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld. > > > > > > > > > > because the bullet is really fast and shadow meld has only 5 second cooldown i guess? > > > > > > > > 45 for a charge to come back. 5 to use a charge. > > > > > > ty, i do know that but he made it sound like i will hit most of the time and if once in a year i maybe wont hit my super OP beam of doom, then i am safe because i can use elite wich is soo fast, it wont ever be interrupted wich puts it on longer cd then the remaining reveal :D > > > > > > i simply dont understand how he can complain about DJ now with a stealth requirement. if you want to oneshot now you will use backstab , better damage and more reliable to hit, no reveal on fail. DJ is now more part of an active playstyle were you shortly go into stealth when m7 procs to try a burst or rather force an evade to hit more TRB after. if you just go shortly in stealth and attack with rifle in between, you got enough TRB/spotters to reflect already and can use that dodge for DJ. > > > i mean he made a post because perfectionist stacking to 25 might before a backstab was soo op before patch - now MBackstab hits way more damage without any might but no thread about it. > > Trait manipulation to get a second proc of Perfectionist is no longer possible since Perfectionist got rolled into M7. > > > > I'm sure MBackstab will be a worse offender for one-shots. Feel free to start or contribute to a thread about it. > > ok so something being strong or not is not the reason for you to start a topic. > then i guess you are actually fine with DJ, just dont feel like there was a trade off for the unblockable fact. > well needing stealth imo is the trade off for unblockable and consuming malice the trade off for no ini. > > sure atleast in WvW still alot of people try to reflect/block but i think that is just habit as they got used to this for a while and they will drop this behaviour soon. because people being able to block/reflect on reaction can easily dodge it and keep the other stuff for the malice build up shots. reflecting those is more important as no hits => no malice = no beam of doom. I typically start a thread when I think something is an oversight on Anet's part. This was the case with Death's Judgment previously being able to benefit from the old malice regardless of what the deadeye had marked. It used to be possible to mark one target, build malice against it, and then get Death's Judgment's damage bonus against another, unmarked target. I think the unblockable on Death's Judgment as a Stealth Attack is an oversight since the previous Stealth Attack was unblockable and deadeye did not previously have an innately unblockable attack this strong. I could be wrong. It's entirely possible an Anet dev looked at Death's Judgment and thought the unblockable addition to be perfectly balanced. Wouldn't surprise me any as it seems like most of the players consider the deadeye rework to be inherently flawed in one fashion or another (hence the numerous threads on it in addition to Anet's own thread). I don't personally find stealth to be enough of a trade-off for the unblockable. Not when a deadeye has much more access to stealth than other professions have to evading/dodging, the only reliable ways to avoid the shot now without burning an invuln. LOS tends to be situational. Useful but the stealthed opponent typically has the upper hand when it comes to positioning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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