Mounts offensive skills in lower level areas

[Dante.1763]

Gotsta agree with the OP, im guilty of using mount skills to obliterate mobs in 1-15 zones, but i try not to do it if theres other players nearby, but still, it would be rather annoying to have it happen if i was leveling another character so.

[Aramus.8143]

Faster than a speeding bullet,

More powerful than a locomotive,

Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound,

Look, up in the sky!

It's a bird!

It's a plane!

It's...it's...a noob on a griffon :(

Someone, anyone PLEASE HELP US !!!

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> Currently, I don’t think it’s actually a bug. The engage skills do 3.4k tootltip dmg (with engage dmg mastery) at lvl 80, which most regular weapon skills fail to achieve. In low level areas, the higher dmg weapon skills on certain classes (1.5-2k at lvl 80) can already one shot or severely damage mobs meaning that the engage skill is bound to do even more dmg.

>

> Whether this is an exploit or not, practically speaking, at lvl 80, the engage accounts for way less than 50% dmg against a trash mob; the engage is mostly used for the cc. The question now is whether we want to keep this consistent across all levels.

 

The problem (mathematically) is more complicated whats being observed. Theres a huge disparity in low level players and high level players that aren't apparent unless you've tried to manually level a class you've already have a lvl 80 version of. As characters level, the skills and traits act as force multipliers.... very strong ones in fact, since the games upper end revolves around this idea. Sidekicked/Downscaled characters are "over-nerfed" on stats and gear, and have LESS attribute points then a character of appropriate level. But since traits, skills, boons and conditions can be stacked in greater numbers, and their performance multiplied by flat % bonuses, they still out-perform normal leveled players by sheer volume of attack skills, as well as greater damage output per attack.

 

It might not be a bug, because everything is functioning as the engine is being told. But its very much a balance problem, because the mounts are compounding an existing problem of Downscaled players being uniformly stronger, and ramping up their speed by higher mobility, and with a larger area of effect on opening. Addressing does raise the question of how Mounts are currently getting their stats. Right now I suspect they are independent from players stats, but have yet to see any research into the matter. If this is true, then they can be scaled down more aggressively without affecting their lvl 80 performance. If not, that means we have to go off a coefficient, which is harder to control given how the calculations are done, and damage modifiers can still exceed target parameters.

[Aramus.8143]

> @"starlinvf.1358" said:

 

> The problem (mathematically) is more complicated whats being observed. Theres a huge disparity in low level players and high level players that aren't apparent unless you've tried to manually level a class you've already have a lvl 80 version of. As characters level, the skills and traits act as force multipliers.... very strong ones in fact, since the games upper end revolves around this idea. Sidekicked/Downscaled characters are "over-nerfed" on stats and gear, and have LESS attribute points then a character of appropriate level. But since traits, skills, boons and conditions can be stacked in greater numbers, and their performance multiplied by flat % bonuses, they still out-perform normal leveled players by sheer volume of attack skills, as well as greater damage output per attack.

>

> It might not be a bug, because everything is functioning as the engine is being told. But its very much a balance problem, because the mounts are compounding an existing problem of Downscaled players being uniformly stronger, and ramping up their speed by higher mobility, and with a larger area of effect on opening. Addressing does raise the question of how Mounts are currently getting their stats. Right now I suspect they are independent from players stats, but have yet to see any research into the matter. If this is true, then they can be scaled down more aggressively without affecting their lvl 80 performance. If not, that means we have to go off a coefficient, which is harder to control given how the calculations are done, and damage modifiers can still exceed target parameters.

 

So what you're saying is doing anything to mounts isn't going to do much of anything to help the problem's in lower level maps. It seems what we need more of is common courtesy. Don't hold your breath on that one. So it's doubtful Anet will change anything or even acknowledge there's a problem.

 

I made a suggestion before about starting a new server where you can't get a mount until you complete all the maps and get to level 80 that way, no boosts just fun. I would even pay a monthly fee, $10 or $15 for it. And alts would also have to level to 80 the same way. But I doubt that will happen. Like I said I'll be here for another month or so until I get my SS check next month , probably around father's Day, so I'll see what happens up until then. Who knows maybe everybody will level so fast they'll stay in the level 80 areas.

 

 

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"Aramus.8143" said:

> > @"starlinvf.1358" said:

>

> > The problem (mathematically) is more complicated whats being observed. Theres a huge disparity in low level players and high level players that aren't apparent unless you've tried to manually level a class you've already have a lvl 80 version of. As characters level, the skills and traits act as force multipliers.... very strong ones in fact, since the games upper end revolves around this idea. Sidekicked/Downscaled characters are "over-nerfed" on stats and gear, and have LESS attribute points then a character of appropriate level. But since traits, skills, boons and conditions can be stacked in greater numbers, and their performance multiplied by flat % bonuses, they still out-perform normal leveled players by sheer volume of attack skills, as well as greater damage output per attack.

> >

> > It might not be a bug, because everything is functioning as the engine is being told. But its very much a balance problem, because the mounts are compounding an existing problem of Downscaled players being uniformly stronger, and ramping up their speed by higher mobility, and with a larger area of effect on opening. Addressing does raise the question of how Mounts are currently getting their stats. Right now I suspect they are independent from players stats, but have yet to see any research into the matter. If this is true, then they can be scaled down more aggressively without affecting their lvl 80 performance. If not, that means we have to go off a coefficient, which is harder to control given how the calculations are done, and damage modifiers can still exceed target parameters.

>

> So what you're saying is doing anything to mounts isn't going to do much of anything to help the problem's in lower level maps. It seems what we need more of is common courtesy. Don't hold your breath on that one. So it's doubtful Anet will change anything or even acknowledge there's a problem.

>

> I made a suggestion before about starting a new server where you can't get a mount until you complete all the maps and get to level 80 that way, no boosts just fun. I would even pay a monthly fee, $10 or $15 for it. And alts would also have to level to 80 the same way. But I doubt that will happen. Like I said I'll be here for another month or so until I get my SS check next month , probably around father's Day, so I'll see what happens up until then. Who knows maybe everybody will level so fast they'll stay in the level 80 areas.

>

>

 

I never said it can't be fixed.... I said the problem is 2 different problems compounding each other. Before mounts, Vet players were still stronger then newbies due a bunch of different things. But it wasn't as noticeable because all players have trouble covering ground. Gliding made getting to a fight faster/easier, but had no real effect once combat begins. However, mounts can be summoned in the middle of a fight, and are highly mobile.... now they can cover ground quickly between waves.

 

Reading back the quote again, I misread it (I somehow got "at lvl 80" flipped in my head), and now realize what he was saying. The point was spot on about Consistency. Having the mounts damage scaled down more aggressively gets us half way back to our previous state. The other half is still a matter of players getting around faster then other players, letting them drop damage before the other have time to catch up and tag.

 

Our big overarching issue now is how to bring both vets and lowbies in line with each other while still having the disparity created by the mounts. Spawning mobs with Invul could do that.... but its incredibly jarring between the down time and wasted attacks. Altering the mount speeds also creates another problem with habituation, like the one Gliding created before being enabled in core Tyria. Another big factor is the NPE, and how they're being introduced to skills. I've long been an advocate for having more buildcraft available in the first 30 levels, so players can start realizing combinations and skill chains exist before they get set in their ways. That way you can also raise up the mob difficulty, while also giving players the tools needed to start seeing the game's strengths within the first couple of days, rather then 2 weeks in. It also means they can downscale players even more to compensate for their traits, and draw the fights out longer.... In theory anyway. Vets might get irritated with the longer fights, but I mostly attribute that to already being accustomed to fast kills, and in-grained loot drop by volume expectation Core created with its reward system.

 

In short..... Core could use a major tune up to tighten up player training, so they can get into the same groove Vets are in a lot faster, and then normalize the mobs to make it more consistent with the late game. GW2's build craft being mostly in traits and skills allows for a lot of freedom in early game, where the stat stacking isn't as significant. Thats the perfect time to teach players stats aren't where you power comes from, and empower through learning and mastery of mechanics. I've trained a few pugs in starter areas, and you'd be surprised how fast they can catch on once they get access to the Class mechanics, and are taught the basic of it. They get that at level 5, but they should have gotten that at level 2, along with all 3 main hand skills. But they spaced it out to space out the rewards..... which might had worked if they hadn't stretched out that idea for 20 levels, after players had habituated a reliance on weapon skill spamming due to lack of alternatives.

[Aramus.8143]

I tried something today just for fun. I made a new Revenant which we should never do on a weekend. All the high levels with their mounts showing everybody how they have taken over the game. Anyway I finally had fun when I got to level 10. That's when I did my personal story which as you know is mostly all instances. No high levels, no mounts just plain fun. Now if I could play the game in an instance...Nice. :)