Is It Just Me Or Do Other Classes Do Thief Better?

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> Anet couldn't get back to us about any of this any faster...

>

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > Thief was incredibly overpowered at and surrounding launch. People were literally hitting 15k damage Steals and the Revealed debuff didn't exist which let D/D players endlessly spam CnD in permastealth at 20% higher damage, the BP blind pulse rate was doubled with a larger radius, Dagger Storm had absolutely silly high damage, SA gave permanent might, and D/P's permastealth combo actually **gained** initiative. The thief had "tools" back then because it was legitimately busted. I literally fought and won 1v20 in the first few weeks surrounding launch because everything died in 1-2 hits and I never ran out of stealth or initiative.

> >

> > Those may have been the old ideals of the thief but those are not the ones held by the current professions team leads and they haven't held those ideals for many years. Karl has stated repeatedly that the thief is designed to +1. It doesn't matter what any of us think; ANet has stated that's their intention for the role of the class. Go ask some ex-pro players if you really want to. They'll tell you the same thing because ANet literally streamed about it in years' past blatantly stating that is the thief's role: to be weaker on its own and bring unparalleled gank pressure.

> >

> > And when was condi shortbow "nasty" in zergs? It certainly wasn't at launch (it was played power back then when it had 1200 range for cluster bomb blasting water fields/dealing very high power damage) and it hasn't exactly been utilized for WvW since HoT.

> >

> >

>

> The 15k steal is actually a spike with expected behavior. It was a heart seaker into steal mid air, which was combined with mug and Assassin's Signet. Against a damaged target, you'd hit them for 15k if they were not wearing armor. Steal into a backstab was also a common thing.

>

> Thief was intentionally designed with high single target burst damage in mind, and it delivered very well. But you still couldn't face roll. Which is why we actually can't rotate our abilities very well. Nevermind the fact that they aren't meant for rotating to begin with.

>

> 1v20 was normal for any class back then. Most players were still learning, or just outright did not know how to fight other specs. Thief was the most annoying about it because their mobility allowed them to kite and single people out.

>

> Dagger Storm did not actually have high damage. They had to buff months after launch. Even then, the only reason players took it into combat was most of thiefs Elites were just garbage then. You had absolutely no reason to take basilisk venom. It was a blockable venom with only a 1 second stun in all game modes. It wasn't useful. Thieves guild wasn't taken very often because the thieves do not tend to spread out, and get cleaved down in a heart beat. And Dagger Storm was a double edged sword. Damage is based on proximity and the number of players. You only threw up to 6 (I think) daggers in the full duration of it. And how many daggers were thrown were dependent on how close you were to people. If you were in melee range you'd get the full amount. Further away and it lowers. Now it's eight daggers. Stability was the only thing protecting you before the stability changes. Previously it protected you from all CC for the duration of the cast. Now you only have one stack, and one CC will take it away. Against one player, it was worthless. Against multiple players it was decent when combined with shadowsteps.

>

> Dagger Storm was nerfed. But only by Stability changes. Since then, players have never touched it. And only take Basilisk Venom. While Anet was toying around with what they wanted it to do. Thieves abused it. There was a time you had multiple charges. So you'd hit someone once, and they'd break it. You hit them again and they'd either break it or get stunned. And now it's a single use unblockable with built in venom share.

>

> And I don't give a kitten that Karl wants thief to +1. I don't want thief to be exclusively +1 anymore. I want OLD thief back. I miss the days when Thief had a clean and cut reason to be feared. When players knew he was good at one thing, wrecking your kitten if you were alone and not Ranger, Guardian, or Mesmer. Before all of these rediculous nerfs because players couldn't figure out what our weaknesses were. Or that they just didn't want to play around those weaknesses.

 

Mug alone used to deal that much damage because it used to be able to crit. Crit damage was also stronger back then because pre-ferocity it had an additional 15% non-additive damage in total (I made a thread about the math years ago when they announced the changes), and Assassin's Signet was +50% rather than +15% and now +540 power. CS used to have more potent damage inflicted on critical hits. Power and stacked ferocity are additive modifiers while damage modifiers are multiplicative. SA/CS mightstack combo was 3700 power and around 280% crit damage with +50% on Assassin's Signet, and it wasn't on people without armor; I can hit 10k CnD's today on people in exotic/ascended without the extra damage scaling and lower crit damage scaling.

 

Dagger Storm dealt the same damage per bolt but used to apply all of its projectile hits split among nearby targets. It's why you see old videos with things like 20k Dstorms to single targets. Further, it also used to reflect projectiles for longer than its cast due to a bug.

 

BV was taken for a lot of purposes including PvP/WvW but looked over because of its longer cooldown prior to buffs. It originally applied the Petrified effect which ignored stability and could not be stunbroken from. People just ran DStorm often because early on longbow ranger with 100% quickness cast speed was one-shotting things since the thief had no DR and everyone built berserker gear and because it did a stupid amount of damage to groups or less than three people.

 

At release, thief was legitimately overpowered, and most of the problems the thief faces today aren't because it is weak but because other professions have no gaps of vulnerability and because the initiative system does not scale well in conjunction with cooldown powercreep.

 

Sources on the design of the thief stating it's supposed to be an unparalleled duelist are very, very old. Daredevil was supposed to be better as a fighter, and it is/was and had to get toned down because it was spammy and overly strong.

 

If other professions are doing what the thief is supposed to, but better, then the problem is those other professions being too powerful rather than the thief too weak. I don't understand why there's resistance to this claim.

 

If there is a disagreement about being relegated to +1 duty, then do some inspection and ask why that is. Hints: It's shortbow and simultaneous offense + defense on other professions. It's boon application and powercreeped defenses and spammable skills from every profession with no counterplay. It's that everyone's just a walking ball of stats with no skill required to do anything. All of this has been discussed to death. So many people have quit because of it.

 

But I digress. If powercreep is going to be all people ask for these days, rather than looking at other professions and the problematic design of major game elements, it's more reasoning for me and players of similar mindset to not to come back to the game. Cover up symptoms as much as you want, but it's not going to fix any of the actual problems with the thief, the game, or the relative balance.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > Anet couldn't get back to us about any of this any faster...

> >

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > Thief was incredibly overpowered at and surrounding launch. People were literally hitting 15k damage Steals and the Revealed debuff didn't exist which let D/D players endlessly spam CnD in permastealth at 20% higher damage, the BP blind pulse rate was doubled with a larger radius, Dagger Storm had absolutely silly high damage, SA gave permanent might, and D/P's permastealth combo actually **gained** initiative. The thief had "tools" back then because it was legitimately busted. I literally fought and won 1v20 in the first few weeks surrounding launch because everything died in 1-2 hits and I never ran out of stealth or initiative.

> > >

> > > Those may have been the old ideals of the thief but those are not the ones held by the current professions team leads and they haven't held those ideals for many years. Karl has stated repeatedly that the thief is designed to +1. It doesn't matter what any of us think; ANet has stated that's their intention for the role of the class. Go ask some ex-pro players if you really want to. They'll tell you the same thing because ANet literally streamed about it in years' past blatantly stating that is the thief's role: to be weaker on its own and bring unparalleled gank pressure.

> > >

> > > And when was condi shortbow "nasty" in zergs? It certainly wasn't at launch (it was played power back then when it had 1200 range for cluster bomb blasting water fields/dealing very high power damage) and it hasn't exactly been utilized for WvW since HoT.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > The 15k steal is actually a spike with expected behavior. It was a heart seaker into steal mid air, which was combined with mug and Assassin's Signet. Against a damaged target, you'd hit them for 15k if they were not wearing armor. Steal into a backstab was also a common thing.

> >

> > Thief was intentionally designed with high single target burst damage in mind, and it delivered very well. But you still couldn't face roll. Which is why we actually can't rotate our abilities very well. Nevermind the fact that they aren't meant for rotating to begin with.

> >

> > 1v20 was normal for any class back then. Most players were still learning, or just outright did not know how to fight other specs. Thief was the most annoying about it because their mobility allowed them to kite and single people out.

> >

> > Dagger Storm did not actually have high damage. They had to buff months after launch. Even then, the only reason players took it into combat was most of thiefs Elites were just garbage then. You had absolutely no reason to take basilisk venom. It was a blockable venom with only a 1 second stun in all game modes. It wasn't useful. Thieves guild wasn't taken very often because the thieves do not tend to spread out, and get cleaved down in a heart beat. And Dagger Storm was a double edged sword. Damage is based on proximity and the number of players. You only threw up to 6 (I think) daggers in the full duration of it. And how many daggers were thrown were dependent on how close you were to people. If you were in melee range you'd get the full amount. Further away and it lowers. Now it's eight daggers. Stability was the only thing protecting you before the stability changes. Previously it protected you from all CC for the duration of the cast. Now you only have one stack, and one CC will take it away. Against one player, it was worthless. Against multiple players it was decent when combined with shadowsteps.

> >

> > Dagger Storm was nerfed. But only by Stability changes. Since then, players have never touched it. And only take Basilisk Venom. While Anet was toying around with what they wanted it to do. Thieves abused it. There was a time you had multiple charges. So you'd hit someone once, and they'd break it. You hit them again and they'd either break it or get stunned. And now it's a single use unblockable with built in venom share.

> >

> > And I don't give a kitten that Karl wants thief to +1. I don't want thief to be exclusively +1 anymore. I want OLD thief back. I miss the days when Thief had a clean and cut reason to be feared. When players knew he was good at one thing, wrecking your kitten if you were alone and not Ranger, Guardian, or Mesmer. Before all of these rediculous nerfs because players couldn't figure out what our weaknesses were. Or that they just didn't want to play around those weaknesses.

>

> Mug alone used to deal that much damage because it used to be able to crit. Crit damage was also stronger back then because pre-ferocity it had an additional 15% non-additive damage in total (I made a thread about the math years ago when they announced the changes), and Assassin's Signet was +50% rather than +15% and now +540 power. CS used to have more potent damage inflicted on critical hits. Power and stacked ferocity are additive modifiers while damage modifiers are multiplicative. SA/CS mightstack combo was 3700 power and around 280% crit damage with +50% on Assassin's Signet, and it wasn't on people without armor; I can hit 10k CnD's today on people in exotic/ascended without the extra damage scaling and lower crit damage scaling.

>

> Dagger Storm dealt the same damage per bolt but used to apply all of its projectile hits split among nearby targets. It's why you see old videos with things like 20k Dstorms to single targets. Further, it also used to reflect projectiles for longer than its cast due to a bug.

>

> BV was taken for a lot of purposes including PvP/WvW but looked over because of its longer cooldown prior to buffs. It originally applied the Petrified effect which ignored stability and could not be stunbroken from. People just ran DStorm often because early on longbow ranger with 100% quickness cast speed was one-shotting things since the thief had no DR and everyone built berserker gear and because it did a stupid amount of damage to groups or less than three people.

>

> At release, thief was legitimately overpowered, and most of the problems the thief faces today aren't because it is weak but because other professions have no gaps of vulnerability and because the initiative system does not scale well in conjunction with cooldown powercreep.

>

> Sources on the design of the thief stating it's supposed to be an unparalleled duelist are very, very old. Daredevil was supposed to be better as a fighter, and it is/was and had to get toned down because it was spammy and overly strong.

>

> If other professions are doing what the thief is supposed to, but better, then the problem is those other professions being too powerful rather than the thief too weak. I don't understand why there's resistance to this claim.

>

> If there is a disagreement about being relegated to +1 duty, then do some inspection and ask why that is. Hints: It's shortbow and simultaneous offense + defense on other professions. It's boon application and powercreeped defenses and spammable skills from every profession with no counterplay. It's that everyone's just a walking ball of stats with no skill required to do anything. All of this has been discussed to death. So many people have quit because of it.

>

> But I digress. If powercreep is going to be all people ask for these days, rather than looking at other professions and the problematic design of major game elements, it's more reasoning for me and players of similar mindset to not to come back to the game. Cover up symptoms as much as you want, but it's not going to fix any of the actual problems with the thief, the game, or the relative balance.

 

Asking for Thief to be returned to their original spot in the game is not asking for power creep. It's asking for their role in the game to be returned.

I never complained about nerfs from launch through half of HoT. They were reasonable and palpable, and we still had a defining role. Then shit started getting absurd. Instead of finding a better solution to Backstab against Aegis, what do they do? Instead of doing something to encourage daredevil to stay and fight in a battle they had no hope in from the start, what do they do? Instead of softening up the auto chain nerf so it didn't have such a huge impact on the first two, what did they do?

 

At this point I am assuming that the word power creep is being used as a political tool rather than referring to the problem it represents. At the start of HoT, THAT was power creep. Reaper couldn't be killed. Scrapper did bullshit damage with area control. Chrono made people invulnerable. Daredevil gives a raw percentile damage increase with no trade offs. And somehow wanting thiefs role to be reevaluated is power creep? Fuck off. As it stands there's no real reason to choose thief over anyone else anymore.

[MrForz.1953]

The way Thief seems to be described here feels similar to ye olde Condition Engineer. A spec, or a concept, or build that hasn't evolved while others have been given somewhat more of _everything_ at once.

 

I cannot exactly support buffs however, it's them who have gone too far, not the described cases that are underwhelming.

[omgdracula.6345]

> @"MrForz.1953" said:

> The way Thief seems to be described here feels similar to ye olde Condition Engineer. A spec, or a concept, or build that hasn't evolved while others have been given somewhat more of _everything_ at once.

>

> I cannot exactly support buffs however, it's them who have gone too far, not the described cases that are underwhelming.

 

IIRC they were going to buff some of our skills and then opted out. Which actually showed the glaring issues with the thief weaponsets. Can't buff a single skill because it will be spammed.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > @"MrForz.1953" said:

> > The way Thief seems to be described here feels similar to ye olde Condition Engineer. A spec, or a concept, or build that hasn't evolved while others have been given somewhat more of _everything_ at once.

> >

> > I cannot exactly support buffs however, it's them who have gone too far, not the described cases that are underwhelming.

>

> IIRC they were going to buff some of our skills and then opted out. Which actually showed the glaring issues with the thief weaponsets. Can't buff a single skill because it will be spammed.

 

I thought it was because some jerk said we don't need them.

[omgdracula.6345]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > @"MrForz.1953" said:

> > > The way Thief seems to be described here feels similar to ye olde Condition Engineer. A spec, or a concept, or build that hasn't evolved while others have been given somewhat more of _everything_ at once.

> > >

> > > I cannot exactly support buffs however, it's them who have gone too far, not the described cases that are underwhelming.

> >

> > IIRC they were going to buff some of our skills and then opted out. Which actually showed the glaring issues with the thief weaponsets. Can't buff a single skill because it will be spammed.

>

> I thought it was because some jerk said we don't need them.

 

I forgot what the reasoning was they just decided to not buff the skills. I think heartseeker, shadow shot, and something else were going to get buffed but they retracted.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > > @"MrForz.1953" said:

> > > > The way Thief seems to be described here feels similar to ye olde Condition Engineer. A spec, or a concept, or build that hasn't evolved while others have been given somewhat more of _everything_ at once.

> > > >

> > > > I cannot exactly support buffs however, it's them who have gone too far, not the described cases that are underwhelming.

> > >

> > > IIRC they were going to buff some of our skills and then opted out. Which actually showed the glaring issues with the thief weaponsets. Can't buff a single skill because it will be spammed.

> >

> > I thought it was because some jerk said we don't need them.

>

> I forgot what the reasoning was they just decided to not buff the skills. I think heartseeker, shadow shot, and something else were going to get buffed but they retracted.

 

I could get 10-15k Shadow Shots and 20-30k Heartseekers with the magnitude of the damage increases they were proposing lol. The numbers were completely illogical and would not change kit viability in concept at all except make the class more noob-friendly by making the thief more powerful by literally spamming.

 

People fail to see it because people aren't building offense, but those damage adjustment numbers were super, super bad for the game.

 

The thief's issues lie in its kit concepts more than anything at the moment when compared to the rest of the game, because powercreeping the rest of the game makes the initiative system and the nature of the thief's skills much harder to balance without making the class downright overpowered.

 

So yet again, blame the powercreep to other professions.

[omgdracula.6345]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > > > @"MrForz.1953" said:

> > > > > The way Thief seems to be described here feels similar to ye olde Condition Engineer. A spec, or a concept, or build that hasn't evolved while others have been given somewhat more of _everything_ at once.

> > > > >

> > > > > I cannot exactly support buffs however, it's them who have gone too far, not the described cases that are underwhelming.

> > > >

> > > > IIRC they were going to buff some of our skills and then opted out. Which actually showed the glaring issues with the thief weaponsets. Can't buff a single skill because it will be spammed.

> > >

> > > I thought it was because some jerk said we don't need them.

> >

> > I forgot what the reasoning was they just decided to not buff the skills. I think heartseeker, shadow shot, and something else were going to get buffed but they retracted.

>

> I could get 10-15k Shadow Shots and 20-30k Heartseekers with the magnitude of the damage increases they were proposing lol. The numbers were completely illogical and would not change kit viability in concept at all except make the class more noob-friendly by making the thief more powerful by literally spamming.

>

> People fail to see it because people aren't building offense, but those damage adjustment numbers were super, super bad for the game.

>

> The thief's issues lie in its kit concepts more than anything at the moment when compared to the rest of the game, because powercreeping the rest of the game makes the initiative system and the nature of the thief's skills much harder to balance without making the class downright overpowered.

>

> So yet again, blame the powercreep to other professions.

 

Oh I am well aware of the kit issues, I was also against the buffs to heartseeker as that would have reverted thief back to release HS spam.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > > > > @"MrForz.1953" said:

> > > > > > The way Thief seems to be described here feels similar to ye olde Condition Engineer. A spec, or a concept, or build that hasn't evolved while others have been given somewhat more of _everything_ at once.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I cannot exactly support buffs however, it's them who have gone too far, not the described cases that are underwhelming.

> > > > >

> > > > > IIRC they were going to buff some of our skills and then opted out. Which actually showed the glaring issues with the thief weaponsets. Can't buff a single skill because it will be spammed.

> > > >

> > > > I thought it was because some jerk said we don't need them.

> > >

> > > I forgot what the reasoning was they just decided to not buff the skills. I think heartseeker, shadow shot, and something else were going to get buffed but they retracted.

> >

> > I could get 10-15k Shadow Shots and 20-30k Heartseekers with the magnitude of the damage increases they were proposing lol. The numbers were completely illogical and would not change kit viability in concept at all except make the class more noob-friendly by making the thief more powerful by literally spamming.

> >

> > People fail to see it because people aren't building offense, but those damage adjustment numbers were super, super bad for the game.

> >

> > The thief's issues lie in its kit concepts more than anything at the moment when compared to the rest of the game, because powercreeping the rest of the game makes the initiative system and the nature of the thief's skills much harder to balance without making the class downright overpowered.

> >

> > So yet again, blame the powercreep to other professions.

>

> Oh I am well aware of the kit issues, I was also against the buffs to heartseeker as that would have reverted thief back to release HS spam.

 

Which was why I advocated against the compensation buffs; the numbers made no sense and strictly speaking, Shadow Shot spam would have been even better than HS spam.

 

The issue was the nerfs were founded because the thief's AA got buffed with HoT by 30-40% when it started dealing relatively low damage compared to the HoT specs and powercreep. Mind you, the thief already had some of the best DPS prior to HoT. The issue that arose from this was that even backstab became a damage loss with the DPS increases, and with backstab still a potent skill, the only logical thing to do was nerf the excessive AA chain. It's also why the first two hits of the AA were nerfed and not the third; bursting is now less friendly to the AA because it's contingent on completing a full chain.

 

I genuinely do not understand the nerfs to sword's AA considering it's already slow and vulnerable. Maybe a slight tweak downwards was necessary, but the cuts do feel a bit excessive.

 

Problem is PoF even further exacerbated the powercreep so nerfing the AA chain into a logical position was just all negative because everyone else's damage and defenses continued to increase.

 

Again, the issue is other professions.

[omgdracula.6345]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > > > > > @"MrForz.1953" said:

> > > > > > > The way Thief seems to be described here feels similar to ye olde Condition Engineer. A spec, or a concept, or build that hasn't evolved while others have been given somewhat more of _everything_ at once.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I cannot exactly support buffs however, it's them who have gone too far, not the described cases that are underwhelming.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > IIRC they were going to buff some of our skills and then opted out. Which actually showed the glaring issues with the thief weaponsets. Can't buff a single skill because it will be spammed.

> > > > >

> > > > > I thought it was because some jerk said we don't need them.

> > > >

> > > > I forgot what the reasoning was they just decided to not buff the skills. I think heartseeker, shadow shot, and something else were going to get buffed but they retracted.

> > >

> > > I could get 10-15k Shadow Shots and 20-30k Heartseekers with the magnitude of the damage increases they were proposing lol. The numbers were completely illogical and would not change kit viability in concept at all except make the class more noob-friendly by making the thief more powerful by literally spamming.

> > >

> > > People fail to see it because people aren't building offense, but those damage adjustment numbers were super, super bad for the game.

> > >

> > > The thief's issues lie in its kit concepts more than anything at the moment when compared to the rest of the game, because powercreeping the rest of the game makes the initiative system and the nature of the thief's skills much harder to balance without making the class downright overpowered.

> > >

> > > So yet again, blame the powercreep to other professions.

> >

> > Oh I am well aware of the kit issues, I was also against the buffs to heartseeker as that would have reverted thief back to release HS spam.

>

> Which was why I advocated against the compensation buffs; the numbers made no sense and strictly speaking, Shadow Shot spam would have been even better than HS spam.

>

> The issue was the nerfs were founded because the thief's AA got buffed with HoT by 30-40% when it started dealing relatively low damage compared to the HoT specs and powercreep. Mind you, the thief already had some of the best DPS prior to HoT. The issue that arose from this was that even backstab became a damage loss with the DPS increases, and with backstab still a potent skill, the only logical thing to do was nerf the excessive AA chain. It's also why the first two hits of the AA were nerfed and not the third; bursting is now less friendly to the AA because it's contingent on completing a full chain.

>

> I genuinely do not understand the nerfs to sword's AA considering it's already slow and vulnerable. Maybe a slight tweak downwards was necessary, but the cuts do feel a bit excessive.

>

> Problem is PoF even further exacerbated the powercreep so nerfing the AA chain into a logical position was just all negative because everyone else's damage and defenses continued to increase.

>

> Again, the issue is other professions.

 

Yea but sadly at this point it is probably easier for anet to just buff thief than bring other classes down.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > > > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > > > > > > @"MrForz.1953" said:

> > > > > > > > The way Thief seems to be described here feels similar to ye olde Condition Engineer. A spec, or a concept, or build that hasn't evolved while others have been given somewhat more of _everything_ at once.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I cannot exactly support buffs however, it's them who have gone too far, not the described cases that are underwhelming.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > IIRC they were going to buff some of our skills and then opted out. Which actually showed the glaring issues with the thief weaponsets. Can't buff a single skill because it will be spammed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I thought it was because some jerk said we don't need them.

> > > > >

> > > > > I forgot what the reasoning was they just decided to not buff the skills. I think heartseeker, shadow shot, and something else were going to get buffed but they retracted.

> > > >

> > > > I could get 10-15k Shadow Shots and 20-30k Heartseekers with the magnitude of the damage increases they were proposing lol. The numbers were completely illogical and would not change kit viability in concept at all except make the class more noob-friendly by making the thief more powerful by literally spamming.

> > > >

> > > > People fail to see it because people aren't building offense, but those damage adjustment numbers were super, super bad for the game.

> > > >

> > > > The thief's issues lie in its kit concepts more than anything at the moment when compared to the rest of the game, because powercreeping the rest of the game makes the initiative system and the nature of the thief's skills much harder to balance without making the class downright overpowered.

> > > >

> > > > So yet again, blame the powercreep to other professions.

> > >

> > > Oh I am well aware of the kit issues, I was also against the buffs to heartseeker as that would have reverted thief back to release HS spam.

> >

> > Which was why I advocated against the compensation buffs; the numbers made no sense and strictly speaking, Shadow Shot spam would have been even better than HS spam.

> >

> > The issue was the nerfs were founded because the thief's AA got buffed with HoT by 30-40% when it started dealing relatively low damage compared to the HoT specs and powercreep. Mind you, the thief already had some of the best DPS prior to HoT. The issue that arose from this was that even backstab became a damage loss with the DPS increases, and with backstab still a potent skill, the only logical thing to do was nerf the excessive AA chain. It's also why the first two hits of the AA were nerfed and not the third; bursting is now less friendly to the AA because it's contingent on completing a full chain.

> >

> > I genuinely do not understand the nerfs to sword's AA considering it's already slow and vulnerable. Maybe a slight tweak downwards was necessary, but the cuts do feel a bit excessive.

> >

> > Problem is PoF even further exacerbated the powercreep so nerfing the AA chain into a logical position was just all negative because everyone else's damage and defenses continued to increase.

> >

> > Again, the issue is other professions.

>

> Yea but sadly at this point it is probably easier for anet to just buff thief than bring other classes down.

 

But how?

 

Only a few builds and specs are really over-performing, and most of it is the result of direct buffs.

 

It's hard to buff the thief without making it easy to abuse and promote spammy play. I mean Daredevil was their answer and it was incredibly spammy and way too effective, and now it's middle of the road.

 

Fact is there's no actual solution out there unless ANet nerfs the powercreep. Plus a lot of the fun has been taken away because of it. I don't want to play a low-risk/high-reward build. Not a lot of people do. But that's what keeps happening with all these senseless buffs. The notion of skilled play is becoming lost entirely when people can constantly make mistakes and not face consequences. How can a thief punish misplays like it's supposed to be able to if there are no windows of vulnerability or sacrifices made by its opponents, and vice versa?

[omgdracula.6345]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > > > > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"MrForz.1953" said:

> > > > > > > > > The way Thief seems to be described here feels similar to ye olde Condition Engineer. A spec, or a concept, or build that hasn't evolved while others have been given somewhat more of _everything_ at once.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I cannot exactly support buffs however, it's them who have gone too far, not the described cases that are underwhelming.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > IIRC they were going to buff some of our skills and then opted out. Which actually showed the glaring issues with the thief weaponsets. Can't buff a single skill because it will be spammed.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I thought it was because some jerk said we don't need them.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I forgot what the reasoning was they just decided to not buff the skills. I think heartseeker, shadow shot, and something else were going to get buffed but they retracted.

> > > > >

> > > > > I could get 10-15k Shadow Shots and 20-30k Heartseekers with the magnitude of the damage increases they were proposing lol. The numbers were completely illogical and would not change kit viability in concept at all except make the class more noob-friendly by making the thief more powerful by literally spamming.

> > > > >

> > > > > People fail to see it because people aren't building offense, but those damage adjustment numbers were super, super bad for the game.

> > > > >

> > > > > The thief's issues lie in its kit concepts more than anything at the moment when compared to the rest of the game, because powercreeping the rest of the game makes the initiative system and the nature of the thief's skills much harder to balance without making the class downright overpowered.

> > > > >

> > > > > So yet again, blame the powercreep to other professions.

> > > >

> > > > Oh I am well aware of the kit issues, I was also against the buffs to heartseeker as that would have reverted thief back to release HS spam.

> > >

> > > Which was why I advocated against the compensation buffs; the numbers made no sense and strictly speaking, Shadow Shot spam would have been even better than HS spam.

> > >

> > > The issue was the nerfs were founded because the thief's AA got buffed with HoT by 30-40% when it started dealing relatively low damage compared to the HoT specs and powercreep. Mind you, the thief already had some of the best DPS prior to HoT. The issue that arose from this was that even backstab became a damage loss with the DPS increases, and with backstab still a potent skill, the only logical thing to do was nerf the excessive AA chain. It's also why the first two hits of the AA were nerfed and not the third; bursting is now less friendly to the AA because it's contingent on completing a full chain.

> > >

> > > I genuinely do not understand the nerfs to sword's AA considering it's already slow and vulnerable. Maybe a slight tweak downwards was necessary, but the cuts do feel a bit excessive.

> > >

> > > Problem is PoF even further exacerbated the powercreep so nerfing the AA chain into a logical position was just all negative because everyone else's damage and defenses continued to increase.

> > >

> > > Again, the issue is other professions.

> >

> > Yea but sadly at this point it is probably easier for anet to just buff thief than bring other classes down.

>

> But how?

>

> Only a few builds and specs are really over-performing, and most of it is the result of direct buffs.

>

> It's hard to buff the thief without making it easy to abuse and promote spammy play. I mean Daredevil was their answer and it was incredibly spammy and way too effective, and now it's middle of the road.

>

> Fact is there's no actual solution out there unless ANet nerfs the powercreep. Plus a lot of the fun has been taken away because of it. I don't want to play a low-risk/high-reward build. Not a lot of people do. But that's what keeps happening with all these senseless buffs. The notion of skilled play is becoming lost entirely when people can constantly make mistakes and not face consequences. How can a thief punish misplays like it's supposed to be able to if there are no windows of vulnerability or sacrifices made by its opponents, and vice versa?

 

Well Pulm Impact used to be fun until they nerfed it by almost 50% damage. I honestly don't now who bitched about it that much to get it nerfed twice. It is a skill that rewards smart play and punishes bad play. It was honestly an annoying nerf.

 

I agree that low skill high reward builds are annoying but even we are a problem there with pistol pistol thief.

[SoulSin.5682]

> @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > > > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"MrForz.1953" said:

> > > > > > > > > > The way Thief seems to be described here feels similar to ye olde Condition Engineer. A spec, or a concept, or build that hasn't evolved while others have been given somewhat more of _everything_ at once.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I cannot exactly support buffs however, it's them who have gone too far, not the described cases that are underwhelming.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > IIRC they were going to buff some of our skills and then opted out. Which actually showed the glaring issues with the thief weaponsets. Can't buff a single skill because it will be spammed.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I thought it was because some jerk said we don't need them.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I forgot what the reasoning was they just decided to not buff the skills. I think heartseeker, shadow shot, and something else were going to get buffed but they retracted.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I could get 10-15k Shadow Shots and 20-30k Heartseekers with the magnitude of the damage increases they were proposing lol. The numbers were completely illogical and would not change kit viability in concept at all except make the class more noob-friendly by making the thief more powerful by literally spamming.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > People fail to see it because people aren't building offense, but those damage adjustment numbers were super, super bad for the game.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The thief's issues lie in its kit concepts more than anything at the moment when compared to the rest of the game, because powercreeping the rest of the game makes the initiative system and the nature of the thief's skills much harder to balance without making the class downright overpowered.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So yet again, blame the powercreep to other professions.

> > > > >

> > > > > Oh I am well aware of the kit issues, I was also against the buffs to heartseeker as that would have reverted thief back to release HS spam.

> > > >

> > > > Which was why I advocated against the compensation buffs; the numbers made no sense and strictly speaking, Shadow Shot spam would have been even better than HS spam.

> > > >

> > > > The issue was the nerfs were founded because the thief's AA got buffed with HoT by 30-40% when it started dealing relatively low damage compared to the HoT specs and powercreep. Mind you, the thief already had some of the best DPS prior to HoT. The issue that arose from this was that even backstab became a damage loss with the DPS increases, and with backstab still a potent skill, the only logical thing to do was nerf the excessive AA chain. It's also why the first two hits of the AA were nerfed and not the third; bursting is now less friendly to the AA because it's contingent on completing a full chain.

> > > >

> > > > I genuinely do not understand the nerfs to sword's AA considering it's already slow and vulnerable. Maybe a slight tweak downwards was necessary, but the cuts do feel a bit excessive.

> > > >

> > > > Problem is PoF even further exacerbated the powercreep so nerfing the AA chain into a logical position was just all negative because everyone else's damage and defenses continued to increase.

> > > >

> > > > Again, the issue is other professions.

> > >

> > > Yea but sadly at this point it is probably easier for anet to just buff thief than bring other classes down.

> >

> > But how?

> >

> > Only a few builds and specs are really over-performing, and most of it is the result of direct buffs.

> >

> > It's hard to buff the thief without making it easy to abuse and promote spammy play. I mean Daredevil was their answer and it was incredibly spammy and way too effective, and now it's middle of the road.

> >

> > Fact is there's no actual solution out there unless ANet nerfs the powercreep. Plus a lot of the fun has been taken away because of it. I don't want to play a low-risk/high-reward build. Not a lot of people do. But that's what keeps happening with all these senseless buffs. The notion of skilled play is becoming lost entirely when people can constantly make mistakes and not face consequences. How can a thief punish misplays like it's supposed to be able to if there are no windows of vulnerability or sacrifices made by its opponents, and vice versa?

>

> Well Pulm Impact used to be fun until they nerfed it by almost 50% damage. I honestly don't now who kitten about it that much to get it nerfed twice. It is a skill that rewards smart play and punishes bad play. It was honestly an annoying nerf.

>

> I agree that low skill high reward builds are annoying but even we are a problem there with pistol pistol thief.

 

Perhaps we could regain initiative every time we do a successful interrupt?

The nerf to PI is also something I disagree about. It makes no sense that a skill that can't crit, takes 3 seconds to deal damage and can't be applied multiple times to receive such a nerf.

I mean... one interrupt, 3k damage? (Could PI even hit more than 4k outside assassin signet?) What is 3k damage in a game that anyone with marauder is walking around with 20k + Hp? 3K damage after 3 seconds is less DPS than AA.

 

 

 

[omgdracula.6345]

> @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > > > > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"MrForz.1953" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > The way Thief seems to be described here feels similar to ye olde Condition Engineer. A spec, or a concept, or build that hasn't evolved while others have been given somewhat more of _everything_ at once.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I cannot exactly support buffs however, it's them who have gone too far, not the described cases that are underwhelming.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > IIRC they were going to buff some of our skills and then opted out. Which actually showed the glaring issues with the thief weaponsets. Can't buff a single skill because it will be spammed.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I thought it was because some jerk said we don't need them.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I forgot what the reasoning was they just decided to not buff the skills. I think heartseeker, shadow shot, and something else were going to get buffed but they retracted.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I could get 10-15k Shadow Shots and 20-30k Heartseekers with the magnitude of the damage increases they were proposing lol. The numbers were completely illogical and would not change kit viability in concept at all except make the class more noob-friendly by making the thief more powerful by literally spamming.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > People fail to see it because people aren't building offense, but those damage adjustment numbers were super, super bad for the game.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The thief's issues lie in its kit concepts more than anything at the moment when compared to the rest of the game, because powercreeping the rest of the game makes the initiative system and the nature of the thief's skills much harder to balance without making the class downright overpowered.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So yet again, blame the powercreep to other professions.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Oh I am well aware of the kit issues, I was also against the buffs to heartseeker as that would have reverted thief back to release HS spam.

> > > > >

> > > > > Which was why I advocated against the compensation buffs; the numbers made no sense and strictly speaking, Shadow Shot spam would have been even better than HS spam.

> > > > >

> > > > > The issue was the nerfs were founded because the thief's AA got buffed with HoT by 30-40% when it started dealing relatively low damage compared to the HoT specs and powercreep. Mind you, the thief already had some of the best DPS prior to HoT. The issue that arose from this was that even backstab became a damage loss with the DPS increases, and with backstab still a potent skill, the only logical thing to do was nerf the excessive AA chain. It's also why the first two hits of the AA were nerfed and not the third; bursting is now less friendly to the AA because it's contingent on completing a full chain.

> > > > >

> > > > > I genuinely do not understand the nerfs to sword's AA considering it's already slow and vulnerable. Maybe a slight tweak downwards was necessary, but the cuts do feel a bit excessive.

> > > > >

> > > > > Problem is PoF even further exacerbated the powercreep so nerfing the AA chain into a logical position was just all negative because everyone else's damage and defenses continued to increase.

> > > > >

> > > > > Again, the issue is other professions.

> > > >

> > > > Yea but sadly at this point it is probably easier for anet to just buff thief than bring other classes down.

> > >

> > > But how?

> > >

> > > Only a few builds and specs are really over-performing, and most of it is the result of direct buffs.

> > >

> > > It's hard to buff the thief without making it easy to abuse and promote spammy play. I mean Daredevil was their answer and it was incredibly spammy and way too effective, and now it's middle of the road.

> > >

> > > Fact is there's no actual solution out there unless ANet nerfs the powercreep. Plus a lot of the fun has been taken away because of it. I don't want to play a low-risk/high-reward build. Not a lot of people do. But that's what keeps happening with all these senseless buffs. The notion of skilled play is becoming lost entirely when people can constantly make mistakes and not face consequences. How can a thief punish misplays like it's supposed to be able to if there are no windows of vulnerability or sacrifices made by its opponents, and vice versa?

> >

> > Well Pulm Impact used to be fun until they nerfed it by almost 50% damage. I honestly don't now who kitten about it that much to get it nerfed twice. It is a skill that rewards smart play and punishes bad play. It was honestly an annoying nerf.

> >

> > I agree that low skill high reward builds are annoying but even we are a problem there with pistol pistol thief.

>

> Perhaps we could regain initiative every time we do a successful interrupt?

> The nerf to PI is also something I disagree about. It makes no sense that a skill that can't crit, takes 3 seconds to deal damage and can't be applied multiple times to receive such a nerf.

> I mean... one interrupt, 3k damage? (Could PI even hit more than 4k outside assassin signet?) What is 3k damage in a game that anyone with marauder is walking around with 20k + Hp? 3K damage after 3 seconds is less DPS than AA.

>

>

>

 

TBH I am a scrub and did not know it could not crit. Has it always been this way? I swear it used to be able to.

[DeceiverX.8361]

It's never been able to crit. Imho, that's part of the problem.

 

One could run around in soldier's/paladins and just spam headshot without worrying about crit/ferocity for max damage while playing innately tankier.

 

It also does stack, so saying the DPS is low isn't true; if you interrupt three times in two seconds, they'll take 9k damage within 2s after 3s.

 

Further, it heavily depends on build. Marauder stat builds have very low power. Prior to the nerf, my build would be able to PI for around 8-10k per interrupt or ~6-9k without assassin's signet, which is really disgustingly strong to be hitting while the opponent is also getting interrupted.

[SoulSin.5682]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> It's never been able to crit. Imho, that's part of the problem.

>

> One could run around in soldier's/paladins and just spam headshot without worrying about crit/ferocity for max damage while playing innately tankier.

>

> It also does stack, so saying the DPS is low isn't true; if you interrupt three times in two seconds, they'll take 9k damage within 2s after 3s.

>

> Further, it heavily depends on build. Marauder stat builds have very low power. Prior to the nerf, my build would be able to PI for around 8-10k per interrupt or ~6-9k without assassin's signet, which is really disgustingly strong to be hitting while the opponent is also getting interrupted.

 

What build you are using to make those calculations after all?

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > > > @"MrForz.1953" said:

> > > > > The way Thief seems to be described here feels similar to ye olde Condition Engineer. A spec, or a concept, or build that hasn't evolved while others have been given somewhat more of _everything_ at once.

> > > > >

> > > > > I cannot exactly support buffs however, it's them who have gone too far, not the described cases that are underwhelming.

> > > >

> > > > IIRC they were going to buff some of our skills and then opted out. Which actually showed the glaring issues with the thief weaponsets. Can't buff a single skill because it will be spammed.

> > >

> > > I thought it was because some jerk said we don't need them.

> >

> > I forgot what the reasoning was they just decided to not buff the skills. I think heartseeker, shadow shot, and something else were going to get buffed but they retracted.

>

> I could get 10-15k Shadow Shots and 20-30k Heartseekers with the magnitude of the damage increases they were proposing lol. The numbers were completely illogical and would not change kit viability in concept at all except make the class more noob-friendly by making the thief more powerful by literally spamming.

>

> People fail to see it because people aren't building offense, but those damage adjustment numbers were super, super bad for the game.

>

> The thief's issues lie in its kit concepts more than anything at the moment when compared to the rest of the game, because powercreeping the rest of the game makes the initiative system and the nature of the thief's skills much harder to balance without making the class downright overpowered.

>

> So yet again, blame the powercreep to other professions.

 

Then why not focus on thief's strengths rather than trying to treat it like every other god damn profession. Half of our kit is fucking dueling, some situational, and a lot of dodging g. You don't have to increase the damage, just adjust where the threshold is for thief where they go from a punching bag to a god damn threat.

 

They could have changed heart seekers multipliers for health thresholds. Make thief's interrupts deadly again. Reward them a bit more strongly for evading successfully. Fix our buggy utilities. Improve Daggerstorm so it's not a massive risk that can get bursted through. Improve thieves guild so the AI isn't brain dead. If they want to keep that auto attack chain nerf distributio so damn badly, reward thief a bit more for landing that last god damn hit. Give thief a stronger boon strip. Reduce the cool down on Scorpion wire to encourage thieves to single people out. Buff thief's ability to apply weakness. Remove the one second cool down on stealth attacks and make thief be revealed for hitting aegis instead. Increase the steal range by 100units. Increase the range of dancing dagger by 50 units, increase the cripple duration.

 

Keep exhaustion but give thief tenacity on unbound dodge when triggered.

 

Adjust the mechanics of the raid bosses and reduce everyone's damage. Make core thief's traits more competitive with each other. And give him a bit of a nudge for support utilities.

[SoulSin.5682]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> Adjust the mechanics of the raid bosses and reduce everyone's damage. Make core thief's traits more competitive with each other. And give him a bit of a nudge for support utilities.

 

Thief damage on raids isn't actually "that bad". We just need to have initiative compatible with Alacrity to begin any sort of damage balance.

 

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> They could have changed heart seekers multipliers for health thresholds.

Except that the current multipliers are actually a nerf in itself. ANET rarely or never revert past nerfs.

 

 

I agree that interrupts should be rewarded more.

Interrupting is one of the things thief is good at doing it. But even if you equip every possible Sigil and Trait for interrupt it still feel lackluster.

And yes of course, its night impossible to interrupt certain classes due to excessive stab, invulnerability and Aegis interaction.

 

That's why I commented that regaining initiative on interrupt could be a thing.

 

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > Adjust the mechanics of the raid bosses and reduce everyone's damage. Make core thief's traits more competitive with each other. And give him a bit of a nudge for support utilities.

>

> Thief damage on raids isn't actually "that bad". We just need to have initiative compatible with Alacrity to begin any sort of damage balance.

>

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > They could have changed heart seekers multipliers for health thresholds.

> Except that the current multipliers are actually a nerf in itself. ANET rarely or never revert past nerfs.

>

>

> I agree that interrupts should be rewarded more.

> Interrupting is one of the things thief is good at doing it. But even if you equip every possible Sigil and Trait for interrupt it still feel lackluster.

> And yes of course, its night impossible to interrupt certain classes due to excessive stab, invulnerability and Aegis interaction.

>

> That's why I commented that regaining initiative on interrupt could be a thing.

>

 

Then we can forget about DPS and make Thief strong at punishing and bursting. A skilled thief should be powerful. Not lack luster. This will place a slightly higher skill floor and cieling on thief.

 

For raids thief's bursting should be able to make up for the lack of DPS. A stunned boss or player takes increased damage from thief

 

For shadow arts, we can baseline percentile damage reduction, and replace the one in master with a one time surprise attack. A strong bonus for initiating the first hit into combat. This means you have a strong defense choice that prevents blind critical strikes. A short lived power spoke to pressure. Or a small sustain that stacks a bit with acrobatics.

 

Honestly. I'll take anything meaningful for thief at this point if it gets us out of our boring PvP role.

 

Because according to Reddit, we're toxic players with a me first mentality. And we're "team players" by doing the maximum of decaping. And we're selfish if we do anything else.

 

Amazing that they don't understand where the salt stems from, isn't it?

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > It's never been able to crit. Imho, that's part of the problem.

> >

> > One could run around in soldier's/paladins and just spam headshot without worrying about crit/ferocity for max damage while playing innately tankier.

> >

> > It also does stack, so saying the DPS is low isn't true; if you interrupt three times in two seconds, they'll take 9k damage within 2s after 3s.

> >

> > Further, it heavily depends on build. Marauder stat builds have very low power. Prior to the nerf, my build would be able to PI for around 8-10k per interrupt or ~6-9k without assassin's signet, which is really disgustingly strong to be hitting while the opponent is also getting interrupted.

>

> What build you are using to make those calculations after all?

 

Zerk/Valk DA/CS/Tr like I've always run. Prior to the recent nerfs it had a 3.28 damage coefficient. Mug has a 1.5. My mugs have always dealt between 3k to 5k in WvW and 2-4k in sPvP.

 

> @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > Adjust the mechanics of the raid bosses and reduce everyone's damage. Make core thief's traits more competitive with each other. And give him a bit of a nudge for support utilities.

>

> Thief damage on raids isn't actually "that bad". We just need to have initiative compatible with Alacrity to begin any sort of damage balance.

>

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > They could have changed heart seekers multipliers for health thresholds.

> Except that the current multipliers are actually a nerf in itself. ANET rarely or never revert past nerfs.

>

>

> I agree that interrupts should be rewarded more.

> Interrupting is one of the things thief is good at doing it. But even if you equip every possible Sigil and Trait for interrupt it still feel lackluster.

> And yes of course, its night impossible to interrupt certain classes due to excessive stab, invulnerability and Aegis interaction.

>

> That's why I commented that regaining initiative on interrupt could be a thing.

>

 

To be frank with you, interrupts are supposed to be a mesmer thing. It's been that way since GW1 and this direction was the basis for the entire Domination trait line. Thief has spammable interrupts but it's not really supposed to be the major seller of the class or playstyle. OH pistol has a ton of different utility which is why it's so good.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > It's never been able to crit. Imho, that's part of the problem.

> > >

> > > One could run around in soldier's/paladins and just spam headshot without worrying about crit/ferocity for max damage while playing innately tankier.

> > >

> > > It also does stack, so saying the DPS is low isn't true; if you interrupt three times in two seconds, they'll take 9k damage within 2s after 3s.

> > >

> > > Further, it heavily depends on build. Marauder stat builds have very low power. Prior to the nerf, my build would be able to PI for around 8-10k per interrupt or ~6-9k without assassin's signet, which is really disgustingly strong to be hitting while the opponent is also getting interrupted.

> >

> > What build you are using to make those calculations after all?

>

> Zerk/Valk DA/CS/Tr like I've always run. Prior to the recent nerfs it had a 3.28 damage coefficient. Mug has a 1.5. My mugs have always dealt between 3k to 5k in WvW and 2-4k in sPvP.

>

> > @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > Adjust the mechanics of the raid bosses and reduce everyone's damage. Make core thief's traits more competitive with each other. And give him a bit of a nudge for support utilities.

> >

> > Thief damage on raids isn't actually "that bad". We just need to have initiative compatible with Alacrity to begin any sort of damage balance.

> >

> > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > They could have changed heart seekers multipliers for health thresholds.

> > Except that the current multipliers are actually a nerf in itself. ANET rarely or never revert past nerfs.

> >

> >

> > I agree that interrupts should be rewarded more.

> > Interrupting is one of the things thief is good at doing it. But even if you equip every possible Sigil and Trait for interrupt it still feel lackluster.

> > And yes of course, its night impossible to interrupt certain classes due to excessive stab, invulnerability and Aegis interaction.

> >

> > That's why I commented that regaining initiative on interrupt could be a thing.

> >

>

> To be frank with you, interrupts are supposed to be a mesmer thing. It's been that way since GW1 and this direction was the basis for the entire Domination trait line. Thief has spammable interrupts but it's not really supposed to be the major seller of the class or playstyle. OH pistol has a ton of different utility which is why it's so good.

 

It's not like mesmer isnt doing thief, guardian, and elementalist things very well.

 

Some other things I'd like to see...

 

Remove the bonus init from trickery and speed up thief's natural initiative regeneration regardless of spec. One of the problems with balancing was how much thief can spam abilities. And the main reason thief always takes Trickery because of the bonus init. If that was never going to be base line then they can afford to do this.

 

Rather than increasing the flat rate. The rate remains normal in combat as long as the thief is using init (possibly adding attacking onto this). Anytime thief gets a moment of respite, via interrupt, evade, or backing off the init Regen rate significantly increases till initiative is spent. Theres a few key things I want to point out. The first is it brings back thief's ability to pressure in one on one fights, forcing the enemy to keep the assault going. The second is the enemy gets the ability to pressure and control their init Regen by not surrendering a single moment. For concerns of permastealth, players should remember to bring traits of abilities with the ability to reveal. And those passives should have their cool downs reduced to help them combat thief. Thirdly this brings back thief's 1v1 power, and still maintains their weakness. The opposing player can fight the mechanic but will be punished for being out played or the lack of aggression. If thief proves to be better than the opposing player, there should be no reason he should lose immediately because a fight is prolonged.

 

Replacing the bonus init in trickery needs to be something equally powerful, but fit into thief's abilities and theme rather than buffing raw damage, and should reward skill play. So... Thief is supposed to be a hard hitting, fast, mobile, combo monger. This one will make a little more sense to put into the kit

 

"Uncanny Dodge" 15second internal cool down. When thief lands x number of blows to any target, without taking x amount of damage in x amount of time(only once if a weapon bounces or strikes multiple times in a single attack) then they may immediately use any utility currently on cool down once. This does not allow heal skills, or elites to be used when on cool down.

 

Finally. Rather than directly nerfing thief. Pay close attention to what is happening in combat. If something is clearly wrong, try adjusting the abilities that are designed to counter certain elements. Players complaining about permastealth, adjust their reveal skills. Don't increase thief's costs. A small adjustment somewhere will remind players that those skills exist and should be used rather than an entire meta build.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> Rather than increasing the flat rate. The rate remains normal in combat as long as the thief is using init (possibly adding attacking onto this). Anytime thief gets a moment of respite, via interrupt, evade, or backing off the init Regen rate significantly increases till initiative is spent. Theres a few key things I want to point out. The first is it brings back thief's ability to pressure in one on one fights, forcing the enemy to keep the assault going. The second is the enemy gets the ability to pressure and control their init Regen by not surrendering a single moment.For concerns of permastealth, players should remember to bring traits of abilities with the ability to reveal. And those passives should have their cool downs reduced to help them combat thief. Thirdly this brings back thief's 1v1 power, and still maintains their weakness. The opposing player can fight the mechanic but will be punished for being out played or the lack of aggression. If thief proves to be better than the opposing player, there should be no reason he should lose immediately because a fight is prolonged.

 

i dont really see what that ini change is supposed to do and especially how my opponent is able to control how i use my ini. i dont need more ini while i am not using it.

thieves opponents already have to play aggressive when they got an opportunity as thieves are slippery, wasting all stuff into a kiting thief on the other hand is going to kill them allways.

as for permastealth, you can already stealth without using ini and a thief remaining stealthed is no threat while he remains there so i dont see what the concers about it are coming from. i would understand complains about the damage value of malicious backstab for example as this can oneshot most people out of stealth but the stealth as such is not the issue its high damage without tell, same with any high damage instant abilities even without stealth.

upperhand got its cooldown increased and thats probably not because of regen but ini on evade. with your suggestion if i understand it correct with a little port or chaining a few evades i am not going to get just one ini with upper hand but regen ini at significant rate wich is alot stronger?

 

i do think one of the main issues of the ini system and the thief design is weapon swap. if you had an ini bar seperately for each weapon set, they could slow down ini regen and force the thief to swap weapons to lower spam. using 2 identical weapon sets would result in shared ini bar like with other classes. with reduced spamm thief weapon skills can finally be improved. currently if you improve one skill people will just camp that set and spamm that one skill, unload for example. thats not being flexible and use skills more situational, thats spamming.

 

but i agree thief seems to be balanced alot around trickery line or overall into stacking effects on steal as it is an instant ability on core / daredevil. a deadeye is a lot less in need of trickery, especially with m7.

 

 

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > Rather than increasing the flat rate. The rate remains normal in combat as long as the thief is using init (possibly adding attacking onto this). Anytime thief gets a moment of respite, via interrupt, evade, or backing off the init Regen rate significantly increases till initiative is spent. Theres a few key things I want to point out. The first is it brings back thief's ability to pressure in one on one fights, forcing the enemy to keep the assault going. The second is the enemy gets the ability to pressure and control their init Regen by not surrendering a single moment.For concerns of permastealth, players should remember to bring traits of abilities with the ability to reveal. And those passives should have their cool downs reduced to help them combat thief. Thirdly this brings back thief's 1v1 power, and still maintains their weakness. The opposing player can fight the mechanic but will be punished for being out played or the lack of aggression. If thief proves to be better than the opposing player, there should be no reason he should lose immediately because a fight is prolonged.

>

> i dont really see what that ini change is supposed to do and especially how my opponent is able to control how i use my ini. i dont need more ini while i am not using it.

> thieves opponents already have to play aggressive when they got an opportunity as thieves are slippery, wasting all stuff into a kiting thief on the other hand is going to kill them allways.

> as for permastealth, you can already stealth without using ini and a thief remaining stealthed is no threat while he remains there so i dont see what the concers about it are coming from. i would understand complains about the damage value of malicious backstab for example as this can oneshot most people out of stealth but the stealth as such is not the issue its high damage without tell, same with any high damage instant abilities even without stealth.

> upperhand got its cooldown increased and thats probably not because of regen but ini on evade. with your suggestion if i understand it correct with a little port or chaining a few evades i am not going to get just one ini with upper hand but regen ini at significant rate wich is alot stronger?

>

> i do think one of the main issues of the ini system and the thief design is weapon swap. if you had an ini bar seperately for each weapon set, they could slow down ini regen and force the thief to swap weapons to lower spam. using 2 identical weapon sets would result in shared ini bar like with other classes. with reduced spamm thief weapon skills can finally be improved. currently if you improve one skill people will just camp that set and spamm that one skill, unload for example. thats not being flexible and use skills more situational, thats spamming.

>

> but i agree thief seems to be balanced alot around trickery line or overall into stacking effects on steal as it is an instant ability on core / daredevil. a deadeye is a lot less in need of trickery, especially with m7.

>

>

 

That is one way of handling it. Better than. The LOL NURF we're getting every update.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > Rather than increasing the flat rate. The rate remains normal in combat as long as the thief is using init (possibly adding attacking onto this). Anytime thief gets a moment of respite, via interrupt, evade, or backing off the init Regen rate significantly increases till initiative is spent. Theres a few key things I want to point out. The first is it brings back thief's ability to pressure in one on one fights, forcing the enemy to keep the assault going. The second is the enemy gets the ability to pressure and control their init Regen by not surrendering a single moment.For concerns of permastealth, players should remember to bring traits of abilities with the ability to reveal. And those passives should have their cool downs reduced to help them combat thief. Thirdly this brings back thief's 1v1 power, and still maintains their weakness. The opposing player can fight the mechanic but will be punished for being out played or the lack of aggression. If thief proves to be better than the opposing player, there should be no reason he should lose immediately because a fight is prolonged.

> >

> > i dont really see what that ini change is supposed to do and especially how my opponent is able to control how i use my ini. i dont need more ini while i am not using it.

> > thieves opponents already have to play aggressive when they got an opportunity as thieves are slippery, wasting all stuff into a kiting thief on the other hand is going to kill them allways.

> > as for permastealth, you can already stealth without using ini and a thief remaining stealthed is no threat while he remains there so i dont see what the concers about it are coming from. i would understand complains about the damage value of malicious backstab for example as this can oneshot most people out of stealth but the stealth as such is not the issue its high damage without tell, same with any high damage instant abilities even without stealth.

> > upperhand got its cooldown increased and thats probably not because of regen but ini on evade. with your suggestion if i understand it correct with a little port or chaining a few evades i am not going to get just one ini with upper hand but regen ini at significant rate wich is alot stronger?

> >

> > i do think one of the main issues of the ini system and the thief design is weapon swap. if you had an ini bar seperately for each weapon set, they could slow down ini regen and force the thief to swap weapons to lower spam. using 2 identical weapon sets would result in shared ini bar like with other classes. with reduced spamm thief weapon skills can finally be improved. currently if you improve one skill people will just camp that set and spamm that one skill, unload for example. thats not being flexible and use skills more situational, thats spamming.

> >

> > but i agree thief seems to be balanced alot around trickery line or overall into stacking effects on steal as it is an instant ability on core / daredevil. a deadeye is a lot less in need of trickery, especially with m7.

> >

> >

>

> That is one way of handling it. Better than. The LOL NURF we're getting every update.

 

well i could be wrong but i assume thieves ability to spamm a weapon skill nearly endlessly is the reason their weapon skills are rather weak. thats why i think to buff our skills we need to first reduce spamm, while keeping flexibility and i dont know any better or any other way of doing it then giving us seperate ini for each weapon set. or we keep changing stuff here and there and are allways stuck in builds that mainly spamm the same 1-2 skills over and over. thief is by design currently a gimmick in every build.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > Rather than increasing the flat rate. The rate remains normal in combat as long as the thief is using init (possibly adding attacking onto this). Anytime thief gets a moment of respite, via interrupt, evade, or backing off the init Regen rate significantly increases till initiative is spent. Theres a few key things I want to point out. The first is it brings back thief's ability to pressure in one on one fights, forcing the enemy to keep the assault going. The second is the enemy gets the ability to pressure and control their init Regen by not surrendering a single moment.For concerns of permastealth, players should remember to bring traits of abilities with the ability to reveal. And those passives should have their cool downs reduced to help them combat thief. Thirdly this brings back thief's 1v1 power, and still maintains their weakness. The opposing player can fight the mechanic but will be punished for being out played or the lack of aggression. If thief proves to be better than the opposing player, there should be no reason he should lose immediately because a fight is prolonged.

> > >

> > > i dont really see what that ini change is supposed to do and especially how my opponent is able to control how i use my ini. i dont need more ini while i am not using it.

> > > thieves opponents already have to play aggressive when they got an opportunity as thieves are slippery, wasting all stuff into a kiting thief on the other hand is going to kill them allways.

> > > as for permastealth, you can already stealth without using ini and a thief remaining stealthed is no threat while he remains there so i dont see what the concers about it are coming from. i would understand complains about the damage value of malicious backstab for example as this can oneshot most people out of stealth but the stealth as such is not the issue its high damage without tell, same with any high damage instant abilities even without stealth.

> > > upperhand got its cooldown increased and thats probably not because of regen but ini on evade. with your suggestion if i understand it correct with a little port or chaining a few evades i am not going to get just one ini with upper hand but regen ini at significant rate wich is alot stronger?

> > >

> > > i do think one of the main issues of the ini system and the thief design is weapon swap. if you had an ini bar seperately for each weapon set, they could slow down ini regen and force the thief to swap weapons to lower spam. using 2 identical weapon sets would result in shared ini bar like with other classes. with reduced spamm thief weapon skills can finally be improved. currently if you improve one skill people will just camp that set and spamm that one skill, unload for example. thats not being flexible and use skills more situational, thats spamming.

> > >

> > > but i agree thief seems to be balanced alot around trickery line or overall into stacking effects on steal as it is an instant ability on core / daredevil. a deadeye is a lot less in need of trickery, especially with m7.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > That is one way of handling it. Better than. The LOL NURF we're getting every update.

>

> well i could be wrong but i assume thieves ability to spamm a weapon skill nearly endlessly is the reason they are rather weak. thats why i think to buff our skills we need to first reduce spamm, while keeping flexibility and i dont know any better or any other way of doing it then giving us seperate ini for each weapon set. or we keep changing stuff here and there and are allways stuck in builds that mainly spamm the same 1-2 skills over and over. thief is by design currently a gimmick in every build.

 

Meanwhile other classes can face roll and get results