So... about Fractal

[Krugash.4920]

After a few months of Fractals with the new random instabilities system we can pretty much agree it's bad and needs to go: most comments I've seen/heard are negative and go from a resigned "meh" to the annoyance and frustration caused by some combos. Even most of the hard core players I've heard talking about it agree it's bad and not fun. To me the system mostly failed because fractals now feel even more stale.

The idea was bad to begin with, because it's really hard to balance a mechanic that you want to proc everywhere/everytime when it's on: it'll end up being either insignificant, redundant (if the map already had a similar mechanic coded in it), or game breaking (to the point you have to change an instability). I understand it was the fastest and cheapest way to try and change fractals, but I think it went on the opposite way.

I personally would love to have maps with proper and completly different mechanics from each other. Every map should have said mechanic tuned for the fractal level and a final CM version of it. I would love to have boss encounters that force you to roll the correct build and strategy, and not the current CCnNUKE everything. Something more similar to the raid/CM system than the current fiesta.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Krugash.4920" said:

> After a few months of Fractals with the new random instabilities system we can pretty much agree it's bad and needs to go: most comments I've seen/heard are negative and go from a resigned "meh" to the annoyance and frustration caused by some combos. Even most of the hard core players I've heard talking about it agree it's bad and not fun. To me the system mostly failed because fractals now feel even more stale.

> The idea was bad to begin with, because it's really hard to balance a mechanic that you want to proc everywhere/everytime when it's on: it'll end up being either insignificant, redundant (if the map already had a similar mechanic coded in it), or game breaking (to the point you have to change an instability). I understand it was the fastest and cheapest way to try and change fractals, but I think it went on the opposite way.

> I personally would love to have maps with proper and completly different mechanics from each other. Every map should have said mechanic tuned for the fractal level and a final CM version of it. I would love to have boss encounters that force you to roll the correct build and strategy, and not the current CCnNUKE everything. Something more similar to the raid/CM system than the current fiesta.

 

I dont have a problem with random instabilities. There is nothing that cannot be delt with. I have to say doing random t4 dailies are harder now but if you do them with at least 99cm squad then it is easy

[Vinceman.4572]

Nothing has changed for me and all my friends & guild mates that are running fracs on a daily basis. Of course some combinations are more annoying than others but in my opinion the change wasn't a rejuvenation for fracs and we still could have lived without it. But either way I don't care enough, instabilities are just irrelevant except that you'll definitely want to have a spb in "no pain no gain" fracs (unless you don't belong to a necro group).

Ah and yeah, social awkwardness needs to be removed, ty.

[Grogba.6204]

Social Awkwardness and No Pain; No Gain can go die in a fire but besides that nothing has changed but making some fractals with some instabilities more annoying. (i.e. receiving a fluxbomb as Chrono as you begin your rotation or when opening the door in underground). Depending on the group (with KPs+both cms/only 99cm/only t4) you still pull your hair or breeze through the dailies.

[Krugash.4920]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> I dont have a problem with random instabilities. There is nothing that cannot be delt with. I have to say doing random t4 dailies are harder now but if you do them with at least 99cm squad then it is easy

 

Probably I wasn't clear in my post or you didn't understand it, but I'm not complaining about the pseudo-difficulty introduced with these changes, infact we've kept farming it daily. The point was another. Pretty sure we would git gud and deal with 5 or 6 random instabilities, but is it fun and good for the Fractal experience?

 

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> Nothing has changed for me and all my friends & guild mates that are running fracs on a daily basis. Of course some combinations are more annoying than others but in my opinion the change wasn't a rejuvenation for fracs and we still could have lived without it. But either way I don't care enough, instabilities are just irrelevant except that you'll definitely want to have a spb in "no pain no gain" fracs (unless you don't belong to a necro group).

> Ah and yeah, social awkwardness needs to be removed, ty.

 

Pretty much the average feeling. It didn't change much or introduced anything new: just this little overall annoyance and repetitiveness spread on each and every map, makes it feel even more stale.

 

 

 

[Krugash.4920]

> @"Grogba.6204" said:

> **Social Awkwardness and No Pain; No Gain can go die in a fire** but besides that nothing has changed but making some fractals with some instabilities more annoying. (i.e. receiving a fluxbomb as Chrono as you begin your rotation or when opening the door in underground). Depending on the group (with KPs+both cms/only 99cm/only t4) you still pull your hair or breeze through the dailies.

 

I don't think any instability is bad itself: No pain; No gain it's actually a good mechanic that force a group to deal around boonstrip. Social Awkwardness wouldn't be as bad if it was actually used on specific fights or phases to force a different strategy. It could be even more punishing used surgically. But if you wanna throw it at every fractal for the whole duration of the instance for a whole week, then it'll be just an annoyance and won't be balanced to make a difference.

 

 

[Turin.6921]

There was a major issue with randoms instabilities being used on fractals that they were never meant to be used. But they never really make the fractals impossible just a bit more annoying. And dev went in and fixed most of the major issue already. I really like the random instability idea, i just do not think in the current form that they added anything really and the change ended up a bit neutral. Not good or bad. The mistake was mostly the fact that randomness was issued before there was space to resigned the instabilities. I just really want the insta resign to come as fast as possible. I am really curious what such a redesign would bring.

[Lunateric.3708]

I think instabilities didn't evolve at the same pace the game did with new fractals, new party comps with new and different elites and so on. They feel disgustingly ancient , looking at SA mainly here, I hate that instability even if it becomes a minor annoyance with a good group.

 

They have more control on how they design encounters so most of the instabilities we have now feel like a forced gimmick. Something I saw in reddit a while ago was to significantly increase the instability pool (they should have done that gradually tbh) and to add upsides to their downsides, IE:

 

* Fractal bombs now also hurt/make a boss weaker, where do you drop them?

* Last Laugh mobs CC you BUT if you dodge a exploding mob you gain stab

* No Pain no Gain still gives boons to mobs but they also take additional damage from boon removal

 

There were a ton more instab ideas with this sort of thinking but I am too lazy to find the post. I think it is an overall mistake in design to entirely focus on new content and not polish current content, specially if current content is repeatable like fractals. I hope they don't make this mistake.

 

 

[Eramonster.2718]

> @"Lunateric.3708" said:

> I think instabilities didn't evolve at the same pace the game did with new fractals, new party comps with new and different elites and so on. They feel disgustingly ancient , looking at SA mainly here, I hate that instability even if it becomes a minor annoyance with a good group.

>

> They have more control on how they design encounters so most of the instabilities we have now feel like a forced gimmick. Something I saw in reddit a while ago was to significantly increase the instability pool (they should have done that gradually tbh) and to add upsides to their downsides, IE:

>

> * Fractal bombs now also hurt/make a boss weaker, where do you drop them?

> * Last Laugh mobs CC you BUT if you dodge a exploding mob you gain stab

> * No Pain no Gain still gives boons to mobs but they also take additional damage from boon removal

>

> There were a ton more instab ideas with this sort of thinking but I am too lazy to find the post. I think it is an overall mistake in design to entirely focus on new content and not polish current content, specially if current content is repeatable like fractals. I hope they don't make this mistake.

>

 

Altho it does sound interesting but I don't think that's the intention of instabilities. Narrow things down to be class specifics to speed things. Mesmers won't be effected much since they have all the tools. Plus we know what it will leads to.

 

Social Awkwardness is a pain for groups with inexperienced players, those lack in understanding or doesn't care with mechanics. No Pain; No Gain slows down speed clears for power meta groups, no harm aside that. Other instabilities doesn't do much. Flux bomb is weak, annoying when badly placed not because of the damage, its because the field blinds! :lol:.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Krugash.4920" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > I dont have a problem with random instabilities. There is nothing that cannot be delt with. I have to say doing random t4 dailies are harder now but if you do them with at least 99cm squad then it is easy

>

> Probably I wasn't clear in my post or you didn't understand it, but I'm not complaining about the pseudo-difficulty introduced with these changes, infact we've kept farming it daily. The point was another. Pretty sure we would git gud and deal with 5 or 6 random instabilities, but is it fun and good for the Fractal experience?

>

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > Nothing has changed for me and all my friends & guild mates that are running fracs on a daily basis. Of course some combinations are more annoying than others but in my opinion the change wasn't a rejuvenation for fracs and we still could have lived without it. But either way I don't care enough, instabilities are just irrelevant except that you'll definitely want to have a spb in "no pain no gain" fracs (unless you don't belong to a necro group).

> > Ah and yeah, social awkwardness needs to be removed, ty.

>

> Pretty much the average feeling. It didn't change much or introduced anything new: just this little overall annoyance and repetitiveness spread on each and every map, makes it feel even more stale.

>

>

>

 

For me it is because i am adapting each run. Previously i didnt even notice that they were there

[STIHL.2489]

They just need to add more instabilities to the list, if you are going to play a random game, more options are always better.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

Instabilities are mostly the same - annoying or meaningless. They will never achieve balance with them and they provide close to none gameplay changes at the end. I'd prefer more new fractals or fractal map unique solutions that vary the content on multiple tiers or levels instead of these meaningless gimmicks.

[Talindra.4958]

I think ppl got used to it already... It's better than the first change imo

[Krugash.4920]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> Instabilities are mostly the same - annoying or meaningless. They will never achieve balance with them and they provide close to none gameplay changes at the end. I'd prefer more new fractals or fractal map unique solutions that vary the content on multiple tiers or levels instead of these meaningless gimmicks.

 

Exactly this.

 

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> They just need to add more instabilities to the list, if you are going to play a random game, more options are always better.

 

You see, I think the problem it's exactly this. If we accept this random system for fractal, they'll keep working on it and use it as structure for future maps. The problem I see with this system it's that it'll always be stale and it will compromise even what's to come. If you have core mechanics on the fractal map and a plethora of random instabilities to add to it, you'll always end up with one of the two being insignificant.

So instead of having different mechanics tuned for each map and level, we'll always end up with this boring and stale fiesta.

If they abandon this random non-sense, they can use the same concepts, but tuned on a single encounter or phase of a fight. And there you can really make that specific mechanic shine.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Krugash.4920" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > They just need to add more instabilities to the list, if you are going to play a random game, more options are always better.

>

> You see, I think the problem it's exactly this. If we accept this random system for fractal, they'll keep working on it and use it as structure for future maps. The problem I see with this system it's that it'll always be stale and it will compromise even what's to come. If you have core mechanics on the fractal map and a plethora of random instabilities to add to it, you'll always end up with one of the two being insignificant.

> So instead of having different mechanics tuned for each map and level, we'll always end up with this boring and stale fiesta.

> If they abandon this random non-sense, they can use the same concepts, but tuned on a single encounter or phase of a fight. And there you can really make that specific mechanic shine.

 

Not really.

 

See if they have.. say.. 100 instabilities, of varying difficulties and having various counters, as well as maybe even fascinating combo's , it could transform a simple encounter into a very difficult one.

 

Lets give an example.

 

Lets say they have an Instability that randomly teleports a players to the last mob they hit or hit them. By itself it seems benign enough, might be a bit annoying in Swampland, to get teleported back to the broodmother while you are swimming to the Oakheart, but nothing that really bad, annoying at best. Now, Couple that with _Last Laugh_ and a player could get teleported to a mob as it was blowing up. Yes it can be countered, but it builds a very reaction driven game play, to always watch what is going on and how some combo's can work against you.

 

Lets say they add an Instability that all _ranged_ attacks apply a Cripple Effect, while this would work both ways, so players could crippled mobs as well, and all melee attacks apply Swiftness, Seems simple enough, but, couple this with Hamstrung, and you could get locked in place very quickly.

 

Annoying, yes, unpredictable, again yes. But it the real magic and risk starts to shine when combos work together against you.

 

Think about it, right now, they have like 10, inabilities, if they boosted that up to 100, there is no way players could simply plan for all of them, or plan for all their projected combo's, in the end, they would just need to depend on reactionary game-play to handle the situation as it arose, and in some cases, the combos could become so crippling that they can't defeat the dungeon, but that is the nature of that kind of design.

 

Which is where the real trick lies, no single instability should be that bad.. but what builds the challenge is how they could combine, so having more, that could combine in some very nasty ways, builds a higher level of challenge and builds a need for reactionary game play.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> Which is where the real trick lies, no single instability should be that bad.. but what builds the challenge is how they could combine, so having more, that could combine in some very nasty ways, builds a higher level of challenge and builds a need for reactionary game play.

 

And then people gonna complain and Anet's going to nerf instabilities exactly like they are doing this currently. Randomized tasteless gimmicks do not work, because they impact fights differently in different maps. Instabilities should be unique per fractal map.

[STIHL.2489]

Too hard.- I can't this.

Too Easy - You need to make it harder.

 

Since this would be T4 anyway.. and maybe a prep for T5 - T6.. let it be too hard. Players will find a way, and if they don't, then that content was above them.

[Krugash.4920]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> Not really.

>

> See if they have.. say.. 100 instabilities, of varying difficulties and having various counters, as well as maybe even fascinating combo's , it could transform a simple encounter into a very difficult one.

>

> Lets give an example.

>

> Lets say they have an Instability that randomly teleports a players to the last mob they hit or hit them. By itself it seems benign enough, might be a bit annoying in Swampland, to get teleported back to the broodmother while you are swimming to the Oakheart, but nothing that really bad, annoying at best. Now, Couple that with _Last Laugh_ and a player could get teleported to a mob as it was blowing up. Yes it can be countered, but it builds a very reaction driven game play, to always watch what is going on and how some combo's can work against you.

>

> Lets say they add an Instability that all _ranged_ attacks apply a Cripple Effect, while this would work both ways, so players could crippled mobs as well, and all melee attacks apply Swiftness, Seems simple enough, but, couple this with Hamstrung, and you could get locked in place very quickly.

>

> Annoying, yes, unpredictable, again yes. But it the real magic and risk starts to shine when combos work together against you.

>

> Think about it, right now, they have like 10, inabilities, if they boosted that up to 100, there is no way players could simply plan for all of them, or plan for all their projected combo's, in the end, they would just need to depend on reactionary game-play to handle the situation as it arose, and in some cases, the combos could become so crippling that they can't defeat the dungeon, but that is the nature of that kind of design.

>

> Which is where the real trick lies, no single instability should be that bad.. but what builds the challenge is how they could combine, so having more, that could combine in some very nasty ways, builds a higher level of challenge and builds a need for reactionary game play.

 

You can probably realize yourself how flawed the system you suggest is. It's naive and unrealistic to think they'll manage to balance with good results 50+ instabilities, applied randomly on 25 (18* for the moment) maps, on 4 (+1 cm) levels of difficulty, when they can't even manage the 10 instabilities we have right now.

 

As I wrote earlier, there are only 2 endings: either fractals with really basic mechanics where you can mix any instability they come up with, or a plethora of insignificant instabilites that will end up being a little annoyance maximum. In the first case the map/boss doesn't matter because instabilities will be the flavor of the fractal. The second scenario is just alot of work for nothing with the risk to make the game mode even more stale.

 

All these examples you guys suggest are good, as good as the current and previous versions of the instabilities are/were. Thing is, when you can dose and mix max a mechanic over a very specific part of the fight/map, you can really make it shine; randomizing evertything it's just going to be a clusterfack of mechanics. For example a random application of the first instability you suggested would be game breaking on a few maps we have right now.

[Vinceman.4572]

The thing is every instability won't make old content feel new again. You can turn it around like you wish - it won't happen. A Mai Trin stays a Mai Trin etc. Putting much work into instabilities is a huge waste in my opinion. I'd rather see them shipping more fractals more often. Content is getting old either way so the best is to introduce completely new stuff and not annoying hurdles that most often do not feel like a hurdle. The impact of new instabilities in older fractals is minuscule and not gamechanging.

[Talindra.4958]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> The thing is every instability won't make old content feel new again. You can turn it around like you wish - it won't happen. A Mai Trin stays a Mai Trin etc. Putting much work into instabilities is a huge waste in my opinion. I'd rather see them shipping more fractals more often. Content is getting old either way so the best is to introduce completely new stuff and not annoying hurdles that most often do not feel like a hurdle. The impact of new instabilities in older fractals is minuscule and not gamechanging.

 

Actually agree to this xD

Also.. what about discuss what we want for future fractal.. eg suggestion and such..

Underwater revamp etc? Or type of map or using glide or mount .. special action key?

Or group mechanic that we wish to see

The last fractal was cool.. but I think maybe it's a bit too long.. I prefer a short simple event leading to a boss fight with fun mechanic..

Btw with all fractals.. 100 is the most amazing of all. But map like this should take a lot of time to make.. I think we should have few small fraction of simple new fractals in between eg every two months. ??

Hope this isn't too much to ask? ???

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Krugash.4920" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > Not really.

> >

> > See if they have.. say.. 100 instabilities, of varying difficulties and having various counters, as well as maybe even fascinating combo's , it could transform a simple encounter into a very difficult one.

> >

> > Lets give an example.

> >

> > Lets say they have an Instability that randomly teleports a players to the last mob they hit or hit them. By itself it seems benign enough, might be a bit annoying in Swampland, to get teleported back to the broodmother while you are swimming to the Oakheart, but nothing that really bad, annoying at best. Now, Couple that with _Last Laugh_ and a player could get teleported to a mob as it was blowing up. Yes it can be countered, but it builds a very reaction driven game play, to always watch what is going on and how some combo's can work against you.

> >

> > Lets say they add an Instability that all _ranged_ attacks apply a Cripple Effect, while this would work both ways, so players could crippled mobs as well, and all melee attacks apply Swiftness, Seems simple enough, but, couple this with Hamstrung, and you could get locked in place very quickly.

> >

> > Annoying, yes, unpredictable, again yes. But it the real magic and risk starts to shine when combos work together against you.

> >

> > Think about it, right now, they have like 10, inabilities, if they boosted that up to 100, there is no way players could simply plan for all of them, or plan for all their projected combo's, in the end, they would just need to depend on reactionary game-play to handle the situation as it arose, and in some cases, the combos could become so crippling that they can't defeat the dungeon, but that is the nature of that kind of design.

> >

> > Which is where the real trick lies, no single instability should be that bad.. but what builds the challenge is how they could combine, so having more, that could combine in some very nasty ways, builds a higher level of challenge and builds a need for reactionary game play.

>

> You can probably realize yourself how flawed the system you suggest is. It's naive and unrealistic to think they'll manage to balance with good results 50+ instabilities, applied randomly on 25 (18* for the moment) maps, on 4 (+1 cm) levels of difficulty, when they can't even manage the 10 instabilities we have right now.

>

> As I wrote earlier, there are only 2 endings: either fractals with really basic mechanics where you can mix any instability they come up with, or a plethora of insignificant instabilites that will end up being a little annoyance maximum. In the first case the map/boss doesn't matter because instabilities will be the flavor of the fractal. The second scenario is just alot of work for nothing with the risk to make the game mode even more stale.

>

> All these examples you guys suggest are good, as good as the current and previous versions of the instabilities are/were. Thing is, when you can dose and mix max a mechanic over a very specific part of the fight/map, you can really make it shine; randomizing evertything it's just going to be a clusterfack of mechanics. For example a random application of the first instability you suggested would be game breaking on a few maps we have right now.

 

As others have said.. Nothing will make Old Content New Again.

 

My idea would add a level of challenge that would make it so that each time someone enters a Fractal, they have no idea if they will legitimately be able to complete it.. and that is the goal of making challenging content, that **Victory is Not Assured**.

 

As such, making a lot of Instabilities, that when combined could make completion near impossible for all but the best players would provide that risk. Anyone that does not want to face that kind of risk, simply put, is not looking for a challenge, they are looking for a grind.

 

And Grinds by their very nature are Boring.

Adding more Static Fractals = grind.

Tuning Instabilities to Fractals so they are predictable = Grind.

 

Creating a Bunch of Instabilities that could wreck havoc on the ability to complete a run = challenge.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> Too hard.- I can't this.

> Too Easy - You need to make it harder.

>

> Since this would be T4 anyway.. and maybe a prep for T5 - T6.. let it be too hard. Players will find a way, and if they don't, then that content was above them.

 

Do you see anything being done hard for T4s outside of CMs? These are not raids and never will be, this is not anet intention for this content. Also, I have no clue why you believe you gonna see t5 ever.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> that is the goal of making challenging content, that **Victory is Not Assured**.

 

You picked wrong game for this type of sentiment.

 

 

[Krugash.4920]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> As others have said.. Nothing will make Old Content New Again.

>

> My idea would add a level of challenge that would make it so that each time someone enters a Fractal, they have no idea if they will legitimately be able to complete it.. and that is the goal of making challenging content, that **Victory is Not Assured**.

>

> As such, making a lot of Instabilities, that when combined could make completion near impossible for all but the best players would provide that risk. Anyone that does not want to face that kind of risk, simply put, is not looking for a challenge, they are looking for a grind.

>

> And Grinds by their very nature are Boring.

> Adding more Static Fractals = grind.

> Tuning Instabilities to Fractals so they are predictable = Grind.

>

> Creating a Bunch of Instabilities that could wreck havoc on the ability to complete a run = challenge.

 

I understand your point, but you're completly out of context. Fractal **IS** a daily grind. That's how it's designed. You can tell by the daily rewards, the items you can purchase, the mist attunements etc. Even if they come up with a tribulation mode for some maps with an RNGesus fiesta system like the one you suggest, they'll never change the core design of Fractals. Personally, I dislike RNG and uninteractive design in any game, so if you are trying to say that the luck should decide the outcome of a XX minutes instance, then I'm on the completely opposite side. The whole speed clearing idea is based on grinding an instance until you can mix max everything with some patience and practice, but it requires telegraphed and interactive mechanics.

 

Thing is, we also have to be pragmatic here. They don't have infinite resources, so I'd rather see them used to deliver new maps with fresh and proper mechanics more frequently, than wasting time trying to balance a random instabilities fiesta that will compromise future maps design and releases and will never make old maps feel less stale. That's why I'd like to see this system go and the existing instabilities used surgically on specific fights/phases.

 

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > that is the goal of making challenging content, that **Victory is Not Assured**.

>

> You picked wrong game for this type of sentiment.

>

>

 

Given the constant claims of players wanting more challenge, which lead the creation of Raids to start with.. No,, I haven't picked the wrong game for that kind of comment.

 

If challenging content is not your cup of tea, and you just want scripted predictable, grind level encounters, there would be nothing forcing you to do this kind of content, just as there is nothing forcing anyone to do raids or Wvw, or sPvP, or anything for that matter.