Lahmia.2193 Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > @"Lahmia.2193" said: > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > > @"Lahmia.2193" said: > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > > @"misterman.1530" said: > > > > > > > > @"Arioch.4810" said: > > > > > > > > C,c,c. > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see a lot of arguments around "dont stand in AoE" but problem lies in number of AoEs thrown around. Sand Savant was problematic thanks to range and size of AoE. > > > > > > > > Change that is implemented is not my preferred way to handle it, but it's something. Even if one Aoe did 1k damage, when your team throws down enough of them.... > > > > > > > > (Other argument used a lot was: ranged classes can focus Scourges. Yes, sure, they can down lets say 10 Scourges. In this no downstate week that actually could work: In regular play, one or two properly traited blood scourges res up the rest of the zerg while melee train closes the gap/ ranged classes get ready for 2nd salvo. This change opens that type of play against Zerg somewhat) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From what i saw today change did affect the comp in big battles - i saw a lot more Eles than usual - but what will happen to the WvW "meta" remains to be seen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (...) A long bow ranger can do the same. A Thief. (...) > > > > > > > > > > > > FB casts reflect. ded lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not about roaming, it's about zerg fights. I am not happy with this simple solution, but I am happy they did _something_. > > > > > > > > > > Your reflect is no match for my signet of the hunt. > > > > > > > > SoTH is generally garbage and comes at a huge cost to the ranger. > > > > > > > > Even then, people act like scourge in a ZvZ environment isn't being supported by ten other scourges with barrier spam, FB heals, and high HP. > > > > > > > > It suffers in 1v1 and very small-scale fighting and maybe some very bad pug groups, but it's just unrealistic to say a single pop of SoTH is going to kill a scourge, especially since most rangers just don't run it. > > > > > > > > Plus, SoTH is a 40 second cooldown. > > > > > > > > Whining about dying to a "hard-counter" which in every other context is a terrible build once every 40s makes objectively less sense than people complaining about scourge even SSavant's cooldown increase, because even that is shorter than the uptime/recasting a given ranger has. > > > > > > I didn't reply to him because... he mentioned the 25% movement speed signet. :# Thanks for the effort though. > > > > I guess you forgot about the 6s unblockable. Easy mistake to make. > > Let me tell you something: In an open society, people will find the way to solve a problem if there is one. That is the ideal behind free market structures, for example. > > Do you see zergs stuffed with Rangers, each one oneshotting one guy? No? There _usually_ is a reason for that. ;) Or rather people are generally more lazy and prefer to hop onto a zergy class (necro/guard/warrior) rather than doing something a slightly more difficult, aka pin sniping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 > @"Lahmia.2193" said: > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > @"Lahmia.2193" said: > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > > > @"Lahmia.2193" said: > > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > > > @"misterman.1530" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Arioch.4810" said: > > > > > > > > > C,c,c. > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see a lot of arguments around "dont stand in AoE" but problem lies in number of AoEs thrown around. Sand Savant was problematic thanks to range and size of AoE. > > > > > > > > > Change that is implemented is not my preferred way to handle it, but it's something. Even if one Aoe did 1k damage, when your team throws down enough of them.... > > > > > > > > > (Other argument used a lot was: ranged classes can focus Scourges. Yes, sure, they can down lets say 10 Scourges. In this no downstate week that actually could work: In regular play, one or two properly traited blood scourges res up the rest of the zerg while melee train closes the gap/ ranged classes get ready for 2nd salvo. This change opens that type of play against Zerg somewhat) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From what i saw today change did affect the comp in big battles - i saw a lot more Eles than usual - but what will happen to the WvW "meta" remains to be seen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (...) A long bow ranger can do the same. A Thief. (...) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FB casts reflect. ded lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not about roaming, it's about zerg fights. I am not happy with this simple solution, but I am happy they did _something_. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your reflect is no match for my signet of the hunt. > > > > > > > > > > SoTH is generally garbage and comes at a huge cost to the ranger. > > > > > > > > > > Even then, people act like scourge in a ZvZ environment isn't being supported by ten other scourges with barrier spam, FB heals, and high HP. > > > > > > > > > > It suffers in 1v1 and very small-scale fighting and maybe some very bad pug groups, but it's just unrealistic to say a single pop of SoTH is going to kill a scourge, especially since most rangers just don't run it. > > > > > > > > > > Plus, SoTH is a 40 second cooldown. > > > > > > > > > > Whining about dying to a "hard-counter" which in every other context is a terrible build once every 40s makes objectively less sense than people complaining about scourge even SSavant's cooldown increase, because even that is shorter than the uptime/recasting a given ranger has. > > > > > > > > I didn't reply to him because... he mentioned the 25% movement speed signet. :# Thanks for the effort though. > > > > > > I guess you forgot about the 6s unblockable. Easy mistake to make. > > > > Let me tell you something: In an open society, people will find the way to solve a problem if there is one. That is the ideal behind free market structures, for example. > > > > Do you see zergs stuffed with Rangers, each one oneshotting one guy? No? There _usually_ is a reason for that. ;) > > Or rather people are generally more lazy and prefer to hop onto a zergy class (necro/guard/warrior) rather than doing something a slightly more difficult, aka pin sniping. The ranger thing is seriously overstated. The amount of group sustain coming in outweighs the ranger's damage and capacity to burst the target. This would need to assume running MMS because realistically even reaching the tag will require cleave which is not baseline in longbow. Most builds running MMS are not competitive or zerg-friendly, either. The amount of organization needed to run rangers effectively is massive, way beyond that of the standard builds, and the individual play from every single one of said players must be much higher than the requirements of stacking any other class. It also comes at a tremendous expense of the group's own utility potential, which means that it can easily just be one-pushed and routed. In organized zergs, pin sniping also needs to take the form of taking down multiple players as most guild zergs have second/third players to take over in the instance their commander dies. There is a theoretical possibility that a zerg playing exclusively soulbeasts running unblockable attacks (not through SoTH, however) **could** counter the existing meta, but the amount of organization necessary coming from similar numbers has never even been close to orchestrated on the level necessary and realistically speaking, I don't know how it would even be possible since it depends so much on extensive kiting all in the same exact direction at the same time. Any group just running any small number of rangers attempting to pin snipe is likely just setting itself back come time to push, and will generally wipe as a consequence. Yeah it's theoretically possible, but it comes with such massive disadvantages and such risks that once groups figure out what's actually being played, it'll immediately get countered by simply adjusting play patterns, no deviations from the current meta necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferelwing.8463 Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 > @"Mini Crinny.6190" said: > > @"SlayerPerfect.8971" said: > > really bad update for scourge . stop nerf scourge . or little nerf .. > > 10sec -> 30 sec ..... > > I'm not going to comment on PvP since i don't play it, but if you had seen the amount of Scourges running around in WvW, then you'd know that something is wrong with the class and will still be about 75% of the squad after this nerf the rest being Firebrands,Chronos and Weavers I play scourge and agree we did need some changes, I would have preferred with the nerf they gave us a bonus to our escapes... Ele's, thieves and mes's have better escapes.. Necro's really can't compare in that department. At the same time the pain circles of death were annoying even for a Scourge player. I liked the zone control but they could have toned down the range of sand savant while still letting us keep some of the boon corruption. It would also have been better to give us better options for escaping (maybe a longer boost for movement speed or increasing the range of the sand portal?). I mean if you're going to nerf the damage then give us a way to get out of harms way (just like the other ranged classes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferelwing.8463 Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 > @"Arioch.4810" said: > C,c,c. >  >  > > I see a lot of arguments around "dont stand in AoE" but problem lies in number of AoEs thrown around. Sand Savant was problematic thanks to range and size of AoE. > Change that is implemented is not my preferred way to handle it, but it's something. Even if one Aoe did 1k damage, when your team throws down enough of them.... > (Other argument used a lot was: ranged classes can focus Scourges. Yes, sure, they can down lets say 10 Scourges. In this no downstate week that actually could work: In regular play, one or two properly traited blood scourges res up the rest of the zerg while melee train closes the gap/ ranged classes get ready for 2nd salvo. This change opens that type of play against Zerg somewhat) > > From what i saw today change did affect the comp in big battles - i saw a lot more Eles than usual - but what will happen to the WvW "meta" remains to be seen. Mesmers can burst me down pretty quickly they have a longer range and while I had AOE on my side in general the only time Scourge became a problem was in large numbers. Roaming scourges are not a problem and even in a zerg coordinated Scourges can still be dealt with too. Scourges range isn't that far and if they move forward to place the shade they are easily picked off by mesmers and rangers. It's not like the Scourge has any invuln's or good evasions (sand swells range isn't that far and trail of anguish has a short speed boost that while it causes damage behind the scourge doesn't really do much in the way of mobility.) While I agree having to face 20 scourges was a major pain, the nerf didn't give any bonuses to the scourges weak points it just attacked their strong point. If they were going the nerf route they should have buffed the escapes. Give sand swell a larger range, or make it so that trail of anguish has a longer lasting speed buff.. Necros do not have mobility or invulnerability, all they get is damage... Scourge was supposed to add supportive ability, buff the supportive ability or add mobility if you're taking down the damage but nerfing one thing without buffing something else takes the overall class and makes worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicious.5683 Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 > @"Blocki.4931" said: > > @"SlayerPerfect.8971" said: > > really bad update for scourge . stop nerf scourge . or little nerf .. > > 10sec -> 30 sec ..... > > Found the Scourge player Wow, you found the scourge player in the necromancer section of the forums. 200 IQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kumouta.4985 Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 r.i.p. desert empowerment. Tiny shade just doesn't work for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meetshield.1756 Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 > @"Kumouta.4985" said: > r.i.p. desert empowerment. Tiny shade just doesn't work for it. Yes the Barrier on shade placement with smaller shade is very hard to land. Players move very fast in wvw, landing the large shade was 50/50 now with smaller shade its 5-10% chance of hitting them. Also with smaller shade pulse around necro is smaller so group support also gone. Basically Support scourge died when they made this change. And I don't see why they would want to kill support scourge. Wasn't Scourge supposed to be support? Nerf Condies not SUpport? Makes no ... sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonSlayer.1087 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 Nerf it to the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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