Scourge Testing: Are Shade$ Bugged or Unpolished?

[Eddy.7051]

_Tested in a controlled setting: no procs from traits, no procs from gear mods, and not tested on foes with multi-hit boxes. I also apologize for the spelling of "shade$," but Anet determined it would be an inappropriate word if I spelled it the correct way._

 

 

**F1/Manifest Sand Shade** - Using any F1-5 abilities should apply only 1 stack of torment and cripple on foes within range of you and/or your shade(s).

 

* If a foe is **near you OR near 1 shade** it will receive **1 stack** of torment+cripple when using **F2-4**.

 

* If a foe is near **near you and 1 shade OR near 2 shade$** it will receive **2 stacks** (not 1 capped stack) of torment+cripple when using **F2-4**.

 

* If a foe is **near you and 2 shade$ OR near 3 shade$** it will receive **3 stacks** of torment+cripple when using **F2-4**. As you may guess, the foe receives 4 stacks of torment+cripple while near you and 3 shade$.

 

* If a foe is **near you OR near 1 shade** it will receive **2 stacks** (not 1 capped stack) of torment+cripple when using **F1** to place another shade near it.

 

* If a foe is **near you and 1 shade OR near 2 shade$** it will receive **3 stacks** of torment+cripple when using

**F1** to place another shade near it.

 

* If a foe is **near you and 2 shade$** it will receive **4 stacks** of torment+cripple when using **F1** to place another shade near it.

 

**Sand Savant** - Summon a singular, Greater Shade instead of lesser shade$ that is intended to act as 3, simultaneous shade$.

 

* If a foe is **near you OR near the Greater Shade** it will receive **1 stack** (not 3 stacks) of torment+cripple when using **F2-4.**

 

* If a foe is **near you and the Greater Shade** it will receive **2 stacks** (not 4 stacks or 1 capped stack) of torment+cripple when using **F2-4.**

 

* If a foe is **near you OR near the Greater Shade** it will receive **1 stack** (not 3 stacks) of torment+cripple when using **F1** to place a shade near it.

 

* If a foe is **near you and the Greater Shade** it will receive **2 stacks** (not 4 stacks or 1 capped stack) of torment+cripple when using **F1** to place a shade near it.

 

**Dhuumfire** - Using the F1 ability should apply only 1 stack of burn on foes within range of you and/or your shade(s).

 

* If a foe is near you, near 1 shade, near you and 1 shade, near 2 shade$, near you and 2 shade$, near 3 shade$, OR near you and 3 shade$ it will receive **1 (capped) stack** of burn when using **F1-4** (not just F1).

 

* If a foe is near you, near 1 shade, near you and 1 shade, near 2 shade$, near you and 2 shade$, near 3 shade$, OR near you and 3 shade$ it will receive **1 (capped) stack** of burn when using **F5** and 1 (capped) stack of burn per pulse of F5’s Desert Shroud.

 

**Unyielding Blast** - Using the F1 ability should apply only 2 stacks of vulnerability on foes within range of you and/or your shade(s). Unlike Dhuumfire, this application of vulnerability is not capped and works the same way as the base torment+cripple application of F1-5 abilities. This vulnerability can stack up to 8 times (2 stacks of vulnerability multiplied by 4 applications) with being near you and 3 lesser shade$.

 

**Reaper’s Might** - Using the F1 ability should apply only 1 stack of might on you. Unlike Dhuumfire and Unyielding Blast, 1 stack of might is only applied when using F1 and not applied when using F2-5 abilities.

 

**F5/Desert Shroud** - Enter a shroud that is intended to pulse out only 2 stacks of torment to foes near you and/or your shade$.

 

* If a foe is **near 1 shade** it will receive **1 stack** (not 2 stacks) of torment per pulse.

 

* If a foe is **near 2 shade$** it will receive **2 stacks** of torment per pulse.

 

* If a foe is **near 3 shade$** (not a Greater Shade) it will receive **3 stacks** (not 2 capped stacks) of torment per pulse.

 

* If a foe is **near you** it will receive **2 stacks** of torment per pulse with an additional stack of torment+cripple at the initial cast of this skill due to F1/Manifest Sand Shade’s mechanic. This additional stack of torment+cripple is not applied to foes only near shade$ when casting F5/Desert Shroud unlike skills F1-4.

 

* If a foe is **near you and 1 shade** it will receive **3 stacks** (not 2 capped stacks) of torment per pulse with an initial stack of torment+cripple.

 

* If a foe is **near you and 2 shade$** it will receive **4 stacks** of torment per pulse with an initial stack of torment+cripple.

 

* If a foe is **near you and 3 shade$** it will receive **5 stacks** of torment per pulse with an initial stack of torment+cripple.

 

 

I wish all of these effects were capped like Dhuumfire to discourage shade stacking. While shade stacking, F5/Desert Shroud has a burst when using Unyielding Blast to max out vulnerability stacks on 3 targets in 3 seconds and permanently maintain those stacks with the adept trait alone. Other capped effects I appreciate that are like Dhuumfire include F1/Manifest Sand Shade’s barrier via the Desert Empowerment trait, F1/Manifest Sand Shade’s boon conversion via the Unending Corruption trait, F2/Nefarious Favor’s condition conversion, F2/Nefarious Favor’s boon conversion via the Path of Corruption trait, F3/Sand Cascade’s barrier, and F4/Garish Pillar’s fear. I at least wish there was more consistency and clarity with skill descriptions. For example, why does F1/Manifest Sand Shade still describe that summoning a shade uses life force?

 

 

**TL;DR** Scourge F ability mechanics are not working the way they are described, and their interactions with traits are inconsistent. Devs wanted to discourage stacking shade$, but you get the most condition damage by stacking shade$.

[Flop McDop.3067]

Wow you're right. I haven't bothered stacking till now since the tooltip specifically says this shouldnt work. the damage output from stacking them is absolutely ridiculous man.

[Maunzi.3764]

Sure hope this isn't why we are getting acceptable DPS numbers.

[Flop McDop.3067]

> @Maunzi.3764 said:

> Sure hope this isn't why we are getting acceptable DPS numbers.

 

It has to be, the dps when target is only next you or a shroud (not both), my dps is pitiful. I never put it

together because when checking dps i was always stacked on my shade essentially doubling some of my condi stacks.

 

[Link.6157]

It's the same with raw damage, you do alot more damage with 3 shade+yourself close.

Sand savant seems like the first trait you really have to avoid for dps in pve. Lower recharge and big range ok, but because it's only one shade it's a huge dps loss because F5 is the biggest burst. But 3 shade in 1 place is a risk so imo the damage reward should be nice. But it's not that fun to always spamcast 3 shade all the time, that's why i thought i would use the trait. But for my power spec, big dps loss. Let it cast 3x or count as 3 for raw damage (no CD) and i would take it.

I agree that it should be consistent with other traits but to just nerf it? Maybe the conditions OK, but for me it would hurt/kill the build i like playing now, while CD already has higher dps.

[Zoltreez.6435]

im not sure about this... but if this is true...and its a bug...and it gets fixed... Scourge will officialy be the most weak and trash tier class in the roster then.... we barely have acceptable numbers for pve stuff even like this....

[Maunzi.3764]

Scourge wouldn't be the weakest if this gets fixed, but we'd be non-relevant and non-pickable again. Would be a shame.

 

I hope this stays. Think about it, this actually makes a kittenload of sense. In a fight against a single boss, there's no point for us to have shades in multiple places. Using this for single targets makes sense, much like reaper can whirl inside a target to hit it with all the bolts from the whirl finisher.

[Maxzero.4032]

 

Its been like this since Beta weekend. This isn't news.

 

Also you can't maintain 2 Shades perma in PvE anyway (let alone 3). So you can stack Shades for burst although with a 0.5 second CD between summon better hope your target don't move.

 

It seems the F5 proccing F1 each tick is intended since our DPS seems competitive (not OP or UP).

 

 

[HardRider.2980]

It really hurts when the devs dont want necro to be OP but allow all other class to hit stupid numbers and say it's acceptable..If anything actually... it's insulting.

[Zoltreez.6435]

> @HardRider.2980 said:

> It really hurts when the devs dont want necro to be OP but allow all other class to hit stupid numbers and say it's acceptable..If anything actually... it's insulting.

 

Welcome in GW2 where Necro will be forever nerfed to a crap state....

 

1st they killed minion Master builds by removing the Power stat scalling from Minions

then they nerfed Power reaper TWICE once in the begining of expansion then with not long ago the soulreaping trait line...

and now get ready and watch how Scourge will be nerfed to trash tier also in the Upcoming months....

 

But trick of all trades Forever perma Meta Build Mesmers and Eles runing around since the begining of this damn game and not ONCE they were in a bad state..... or even a somewhat balanced state.... they allways have OP or broken abusable builds that they get to keep forever....

 

meanwhile Necros barely end up usable in freaking PvE jesus..... let alone anything serious....

[Wintermute.5408]

Well, I guess we need to push it to remain PVE thing, split from other modes. Because so far, it's clearly unintended, yet crucial.

 

Fuck, at this point, "unintended" is a second name of the class.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

Hi OP, thanks for the hard work!

I got a question though, what do you mean when you say (capped)?

 

Also I'm testing out the skills myself in PvP for Dhuumfire.

 

# Dhuumfire interacts differently for F5 for your shade and yourself.

 

* For Dhuumfire it only ticks **one** stack of burn for **F5** on initial cast around **yourself**. The other pulses does no burn.

* For Dhuumfire, it ticks one stack of burn **on each pulse** around your **shade**.

* Does Dhuumfire have an internal hidden cooldown? If I spammed quickly F2 and F3 together, it only does 1 stack of burn. *BUT* if I waited around 1 seconds between each cast of F2 and F3, it does 2 stack of burns.

 

[mazut.4296]

I don't understand some ppl(maybe fake necros). We already got nerfed, but you want all pulses to be same as Dhuumfire. So you want further nerfs... like wtf...

[Eddy.7051]

 

> @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

> I got a question though, what do you mean when you say (capped)?

>

> Also I'm testing out the skills myself in PvP for Dhuumfire.

 

Hi Angel. I didn't test Scourge in PvP. I tested Scourge on the PvE raid golem. I'm not sure if Dhuumfire's functionality is slightly different in PvP.

By capped, I mean that even if a foe is standing next to you and under several shade$ it will only receive one stack of burn per use of skills F1-5 and per pulse of F5. This is unlike many of the other abilities where foes receive multiple stacks of conditions based on the number of shade$ they are near.

 

 

[Eddy.7051]

> @mazut.4296 said:

> I don't understand some ppl(maybe fake necros). We already got nerfed, but you want all pulses to be same as Dhuumfire. So you want further nerfs... like kitten...

 

I want balance. The best course of action in my opinion would be to cap all effects to once per shade but then buff the resulting underwhelming effects. I would at least like clarification from Anet if shade stacking is an intended mechanic for condition damage DPS or if this is an overlooked bug.

[Eddy.7051]

> @Maunzi.3764 said:

> I hope this stays. Think about it, this actually makes a kittenload of sense. In a fight against a single boss, there's no point for us to have kitten in multiple places. Using this for single targets makes sense, much like reaper can whirl inside a target to hit it with all the bolts from the whirl finisher.

 

The only difference is that Reaper can move their whirl when a boss moves and Scourge has a significantly long cool down to replace their shade$ when a boss is moving. For stationary boss's this is definitely powerful, but that is a niche circumstance.

[Dadnir.5038]

That seem like one huge mess... 3 traits that have fondamentally the same mechanism (_reaper's might_, _unyelding blast_ and _dhuumfire_) yet all 3 work in different fashion on scourge. The balance team never cease to amaze me, I can only clap and bow in front of such amazing work of art.

 

Now I'm curious to see how traits that work while in shroud interact themself with scourge, maybe they also have all there own different way to apply.

[Maunzi.3764]

The real problem is if we lost the hit from the first shade, since we can maintain that. Losing that would be a lot of lost torment.> @Brad.9730 said:

> > @Maunzi.3764 said:

> > I hope this stays. Think about it, this actually makes a kittenload of sense. In a fight against a single boss, there's no point for us to have kitten in multiple places. Using this for single targets makes sense, much like reaper can whirl inside a target to hit it with all the bolts from the whirl finisher.

>

> The only difference is that Reaper can move their whirl when a boss moves and Scourge has a significantly long cool down to replace their shade$ when a boss is moving. For stationary boss's this is definitely powerful, but that is a niche circumstance.

 

My concern is that if this gets removed without a buff to compensate, scourge will be left useless. Our support is terrible, and if our DPS is too, we'll be unwanted yet again.

If we can get the kit buffed instead, I'm all for it.

[Kam.4092]

So are we basically asking for nerfs now?...

 

I don't see how this is a problem. If a target is moving this won't be possible at all.

[Zefiris.8297]

If this gets removed, I see us heading into dire straits. WITH this, I can compete fairly well in raid damage, making it to the first three spots. Without, that's probably gone, and people will go back to rather not wanting us to play on that class.

 

To any dev that reads this, I _beg_ you, do not nerf the damage for PVE. Scourge support is not wanted by groups, so without this kind of damage, you'd not want a scourge. Let us have one spec that does damage.

 

What Brad.9730 proposes makes sense, if you must change this. I would suggest to make _the one shade + you_ damage baseline in PVE. Instead, shades don't stack, either with other shades, or with you.

* This reduces our burst a bit, but keeps the sustain we need

* This does not affect PVP except positively.

 

But honestly, I'd propose to leave it as is. The functionality is good and leads to better play in PVE. It means we have a reason to cast shades frequently even on one target. Please, if it is a problem in PVP, split the functionality and leave it for PVE. This is the least effort way to keep us in a functioning spot.

[Kam.4092]

> @Zefiris.8297 said:

> If this gets removed, I see us heading into dire straits. WITH this, I can compete fairly well in raid damage, making it to the first three spots. Without, that's probably gone, and people will go back to rather not wanting us to play on that class.

>

> To any dev that reads this, I _beg_ you, do not nerf the damage for PVE. Scourge support is not wanted by groups, so without this kind of damage, you'd not want a scourge. Let us have one spec that does damage.

>

> What Brad.9730 proposes makes sense, if you must change this. I would suggest to make _the one shade + you_ damage baseline in PVE. Instead, kitten don't stack, either with other kitten, or with you.

> * This reduces our burst a bit, but keeps the sustain we need

> * This does not affect PVP except positively.

>

> But honestly, I'd propose to leave it as is. The functionality is good and leads to better play in PVE. It means we have a reason to cast kitten frequently even on one target. Please, if it is a problem in PVP, split the functionality and leave it for PVE. This is the least effort way to keep us in a functioning spot.

 

Why are people freaking out already. Is this some Necro PTSD thing or something? I don't see 38k being that high in the end. It's a stationary target. If a target moves a lot it's way lower.

[Zefiris.8297]

> @Kam.4092 said:

> Why are people freaking out already. Is this some Necro PTSD thing or something? I don't see 38k being that high in the end. It's a stationary target. If a target moves a lot it's way lower.

 

Nobody is freaking out over the numbers. The numbers are fine, and we want the numbers to stay.

 

The problem is: If the numbers only exist due to a bug, and that bug gets fixed, we'll not have the dps anymore. Comprendre?

[Kam.4092]

> @Zefiris.8297 said:

> > @Kam.4092 said:

> > Why are people freaking out already. Is this some Necro PTSD thing or something? I don't see 38k being that high in the end. It's a stationary target. If a target moves a lot it's way lower.

>

> Nobody is freaking out over the numbers. The numbers are fine, and we want the numbers to stay.

>

> The problem is: If the numbers only exist due to a bug, and that bug gets fixed, we'll not have the dps anymore. Comprendre?

 

People were doing 33k DPS with just one Shade up. I don't think Shade stacking is really doable nonstop. I don't really care if we get nerfed, cause we'd still do more than Condi Reaper.

 

You guys need to realize that once Weaver and Firebrand are nerfed, then Soulbeast and Scourge are next. We would eventually get nerfed anyway. I think 38k is too much. I'd think 33-34k is better.

[Anchoku.8142]

How does Terror behave? I cannot log in to check right now but have been running both Dhuumfire and Terror rather than taking Blood Magic. I have tried running pretty much every combination of core trait lines rather than just sticking with Curses, Blood Magic, Scourge. (Death Magic still sucks, by the way.)

 

Scepter-condi builds seem to work well but power builds seem clunky, as if there are not enough tools in the tool box.

 

I started with viper's/thorns/scepter for a while and it felt good, but glassy. Berserker's/scholar with MH dagger is another set I had on hand and it did not work very well because MH dagger just does not have any of the typical mobility or immunity skills other professions have so face-tanking with dagger was punishing. Running power, I ended up using axe more often than dagger simply to get out of melee. When I swapped to rabid/scepter, it did better. Then, I swapped to shaman's/scepter and it finally felt like I had sustain along with condition bursts. Later I mixed a bit of viper's in with shaman's but was getting tired so I do not remember how well it worked but shaman's did still allow for fairly good condition bursts. I have soldier's equipment but have not tried it, yet.

 

Without a real shroud, Scourge seems handicapped by its core power weapons. It only seems to play really well by kiting with scepter in PvE and, for that, I am sad but will keep learning to play Scourge.

[Warscythes.9307]

> @Kam.4092 said:

> > @Zefiris.8297 said:

> > > @Kam.4092 said:

> > > Why are people freaking out already. Is this some Necro PTSD thing or something? I don't see 38k being that high in the end. It's a stationary target. If a target moves a lot it's way lower.

> >

> > Nobody is freaking out over the numbers. The numbers are fine, and we want the numbers to stay.

> >

> > The problem is: If the numbers only exist due to a bug, and that bug gets fixed, we'll not have the dps anymore. Comprendre?

>

> People were doing 33k DPS with just one Shade up. I don't think Shade stacking is really doable nonstop. I don't really care if we get nerfed, cause we'd still do more than Condi Reaper.

>

> You guys need to realize that once Weaver and Firebrand are nerfed, then Soulbeast and Scourge are next. We would eventually get nerfed anyway. I think 38k is too much. I'd think 33-34k is better.

 

I would like to echo this, 38k is not high dps, it is straight up over the top compared to HoT specs. Unless they are ok with FB, Weaver, SB, Scourge overshadow everything else then all 4 will be nerfed. Around 33k range is where you want the average to be right now.