Lily.1935 Posted September 14, 2017 Author Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Mercurias.1826 said: > I'll be honest and admit that I ENJOY the ease of play when it comes to Necromancers. I suspect it's because, to me, Necromancer has always been something of a sustain/tank class compared to the sickly edgelord we all knew and loved in GW1, albeit one with access to solid damage. I'm that goober who still plays a Power Reaper with Spite and Soul Reaping, flashing in and out of Shroud as my Shouts come off cooldown or I need a moment to restore health via Blighter's Boon and Reaper's Might. It's a fun, durable, tanky way to play, and yes my lord are Traveler Runes ever a requisite. I spend as much time as I can in Maguuma so I can glide and am eagerly awaiting mounts. It's basically my go-to class when I want to turn my brain off after a day adjusting insurance claims and best up bad things as a scary thing. > > That being said, I think there is a good bit of depth and interplay in Necro traits. The thing about them is that those traits are often so tightly linked that you're capable of performing a number of things at once. My brain-turn-off build, for example, is made to stack a large amount of Might in Shroud, which gains it's normal form Health, and my normal form's Shouts and other skills are chosen to rapidly build life force, enabling both Shroud and normal form to reinforce the other. Scourge has its own thing going on, with its easy access to barriers and condition cleanses making the Master of Corruption trait a breeze. This quick and dirty build already looks pretty stout: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQRArY3fnc0Al3gV3AW9Cs9iFhBb6plDSXRBgEw4SfumXDsA-jpwXABAs/QnlBAA Nothing wrong with you enjoying it. My suggestions don't take away your ability to do that, but rather offer more options to push in an entirely new direction that you might not have considered. For a player to improve in the game they need to get out of their comfort zone, and the entire necromancer class is one big comfort zone. Like I said, low risk, low reward. I'm also not criticizing people for enjoying this play style, but I am pointing out how it can be very bad for the player if they try to improve their skill if they don't have deep and interesting options. Your build for example. I imagine you like it, but as a PvP build I see some glaring issues with it at face value that'll lead to you being an extremely easy kill against a more skilled player. I don't want to pick on you too hard here either as that's not my intention. But I do want to point out that you've grown comfortable with the bulk and it wont translate over well at all to high end PvP or PvE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinch.6490 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Lily.1935 said: > > @mygamingid.5816 said: > > One of the things that I feel hurts condi Necro and general Necro gameplay is Lingering Curse. With it (and some helpful fields), condi Necro is close to balanced with other classes. Without it, condi Necro falls far short. It's incredibly powerful - imagine giving Axe or any other power weapon a GM trait with +150 power and +50% damage. > > > > LC puts balance teams in a bad spot. If you don't balance to it, then builds using the trait will be overpowered. If you do balance to it, then anything not using it is underpowered. Dropping LC to a Master trait - perhaps swapping with Master of Corruption - and changing to a more standard bonus structure would allow a more evenhanded balance pass. > > This trait is actually quite similar to a Adept trait on Engineer called Chemical rounds. Both give a 50% boost that doesn't impact the over all condition duration allowing for 150% for those effected weapons. However There is something to note about this. Chemical rounds is less powerful for engineer than lingering curse is for necromancer, even though chemical rounds impacts 5 skills as opposed to 3. And the reason for that is the engineer's method of attack which requires them to swap weapons frequently. Losing this trait would have a lower impact on engi than lingering curse would on necromancer since condi necro's primary means of DPS is through its scepter while this isn't the case for engi. > > I'm not actually arguing against your point though. Just thought I'd point that out. In terms of your position on this trait I'm a neutral party here. I think its fine as a grandmaster, but I wouldn't be upset if it swapped places with master of corruption. I wish LC wasn't entirely specific to Scepter, especially being a GM. Speaking of Engi, they have a trait that increases Condi Damage by the exact same amount to nearby allies and doesn't require them to be locked into a specific weapon. It's Master-tier, as well. Can we please not balance necro in a nutshell, because I feel that's the main reason why it's falling behind. Its traits are generally pretty lackluster compared to the other professions', and they tend to pigeon-hole you in how they grant their effects, other wise they are wasted (e.g. Death Perception, Dhuumfire, Reaper's Onslaught). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted September 14, 2017 Author Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Kinch.6490 said: > > @Lily.1935 said: > > > @mygamingid.5816 said: > > > One of the things that I feel hurts condi Necro and general Necro gameplay is Lingering Curse. With it (and some helpful fields), condi Necro is close to balanced with other classes. Without it, condi Necro falls far short. It's incredibly powerful - imagine giving Axe or any other power weapon a GM trait with +150 power and +50% damage. > > > > > > LC puts balance teams in a bad spot. If you don't balance to it, then builds using the trait will be overpowered. If you do balance to it, then anything not using it is underpowered. Dropping LC to a Master trait - perhaps swapping with Master of Corruption - and changing to a more standard bonus structure would allow a more evenhanded balance pass. > > > > This trait is actually quite similar to a Adept trait on Engineer called Chemical rounds. Both give a 50% boost that doesn't impact the over all condition duration allowing for 150% for those effected weapons. However There is something to note about this. Chemical rounds is less powerful for engineer than lingering curse is for necromancer, even though chemical rounds impacts 5 skills as opposed to 3. And the reason for that is the engineer's method of attack which requires them to swap weapons frequently. Losing this trait would have a lower impact on engi than lingering curse would on necromancer since condi necro's primary means of DPS is through its scepter while this isn't the case for engi. > > > > I'm not actually arguing against your point though. Just thought I'd point that out. In terms of your position on this trait I'm a neutral party here. I think its fine as a grandmaster, but I wouldn't be upset if it swapped places with master of corruption. > > I wish LC wasn't entirely specific to Scepter, especially being a GM. > Speaking of Engi, they have a trait that increases Condi Damage by the exact same amount to nearby allies and doesn't require them to be locked into a specific weapon. It's Master-tier, as well. > > Can we please not balance necro in a nutshell, because I feel that's the main reason why it's falling behind. Its traits are generally pretty lackluster compared to the other professions', and they tend to pigeon-hole you in how they grant their effects, other wise they are wasted (e.g. Death Perception, Dhuumfire, Reaper's Onslaught). I think you have a point. As a Master Tier trait I think it could work quite well making master of corruption a grandmater and tuning it up to be more in line with that tier. I'd be okay with this. Overall? 50% duration is a full set of viper's gear and having a trait that does that for all skills or weapons is overkill. Beyond that though, Lingering curse should impact one other weapon. And that weapon is Trident. Its always frustrating doing underwater content and having a GM that does nothing for you in that zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Lily.1935 said: > I think you have a point. As a Master Tier trait I think it could work quite well making master of corruption a grandmater and tuning it up to be more in line with that tier. I'd be okay with this. Overall? 50% duration is a full set of viper's gear and having a trait that does that for all skills or weapons is overkill. Beyond that though, Lingering curse should impact one other weapon. And that weapon is Trident. Its always frustrating doing underwater content and having a GM that does nothing for you in that zone. Oh gods yes, PLEASE MAKE LINGERING CURSE WORK WITH TRIDENT!!! It's been bugging the crap out of me that Necro has been (until Revenant came along) the only profession with no traits at all relating to underwater weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allarius.5670 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 This is a pretty awesome discussion, but I want to make sure I'm understanding it correctly. Complexity here equates to the numerical availability of skills, where the greater the number of skills available results in a greater level of complexity, particularly if the cooldowns of these skills are hidden from view. Engineer and elementalists are given as an example because of the sheer number of skills that can be made available to them. Depth here equates to the numerical availability of options to manipulate a limited resource, where the greater the number of options available to generate or spend a shared resource the greater the level of depth. Mesmer is given as an example because once illusions are generated there are a number of ways they can be used. The Necromancer has some baseline level of complexity and depth, complexity originating via the skills available in Death Shroud and depth via the management of Life Force. However, complexity and depth is lower than it may otherwise be because the temporal and life force gate of Death Shroud results in straightforward, predictable behavioral patterns. The proposed solution is to grant access to utility skills while in Death Shroud at the cost of additional Life Force. This would increase the available options in Death Shroud (complexity) and provide a dilemma in how to best utilize Life Force (depth). The proposed solution aside, from a general perspective you would like additional skill access (new or same) and/or resource generators/spenders to increase complexity and/or depth, specifically to promote risky behavior and provide a more interesting play experience. Scourge is given as an example of a great way of achieving these goals, but is restricted to this elite specialization only. What if one or two additional life force consuming profession skills were added and consequently masked over for scourge? If Death Shroud is the defense, provide one for offense and consider another for utility. Make them big cost skills that consume a lot of life force for risky, but potentially very rewarding, behavior. You would have to be careful because Necromancer/Reaper can already be an oppressive opponent with a wide arsenal of available conditions and offensive procs. If you go this route, you could thematically utilize the defensive nature of Death Shroud as a starting point and have these additional skills generate effects based on getting hit, building in high risk and a kind of health cost mitigated by protection, weakness, heals, etc. Life Force would deteriorate while active or at an initial cost, and taking damage would trigger its effect without any baseline damage absorption component. Example: F2 - Cooldown ?. Cost: 50% of remaining life force. (Something similar to the Glyph of Unity mechanic) For the duration, periodically tether to nearby foes. Deal damage and apply bleed to tethered opponents whenever you take damage. Deal increased damage and apply additional bleed when activated above 50% life force. Note: This way you could get a strong and temporally regulated retaliatory effect. Example: F3 - Cooldown ?. Cost: 50% of remaining life force. Gain a temporary aura/buff that grants swiftness (and/or some other effect) whenever you are struck. Gain a more powerful temporary aura/buff when activated above 50% life force that grants superspeed (and/or some other effect) in addition to (the initial effects) when struck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 The other part of depth is interactions between different skills. Right now, the closest we have there is our corruptions and transfers. While this is synergistic, it's not particularly deep because there's not much choice: you either eat the conditions or you transfer them off. Life Siphon (dagger 2) was the start of adding a bit more depth, since now you might want to consider leaving Bleeding on for a brief period. Doesn't really work in practice, of course, as the bleeding does more damage than the increase in healing, but the concept is there. No new skills were added, but more depth was created. The other part of depth is skills being flexible in use. Portal is one of the deepest skills in the game because such a simple effect generates thousands of ways it can be used. Now, this is a harder part of depth than the others to create, but it should still be something kept in mind when creating skills and traits. Part of the issue of Necros overall lacking depth is because so many of our skills are limited by our opponent. Sure, you can _say_ that there is depth in boon corruption, but depth that you have little control over is false. It's great when you can Fear someone by corrupting their stability, but if they don't have the boon, you don't have the CC that you may need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercurias.1826 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Lily.1935 said: > Nothing wrong with you enjoying it. My suggestions don't take away your ability to do that, but rather offer more options to push in an entirely new direction that you might not have considered. For a player to improve in the game they need to get out of their comfort zone, and the entire necromancer class is one big comfort zone. Like I said, low risk, low reward. I'm also not criticizing people for enjoying this play style, but I am pointing out how it can be very bad for the player if they try to improve their skill if they don't have deep and interesting options. > > Your build for example. I imagine you like it, but as a PvP build I see some glaring issues with it at face value that'll lead to you being an extremely easy kill against a more skilled player. I don't want to pick on you too hard here either as that's not my intention. But I do want to point out that you've grown comfortable with the bulk and it wont translate over well at all to high end PvP or PvE. That's certainly possible. I'm awful when it comes to PvP, specifically due to the problem I have balancing offense, movement, and defense solo. My statement is less on being bothered by you not wanting a thing I like and more curious. Are you wanting a full high risk high reward setup like some condition-y version of a thief? Are you wanting Vampire traits to cause bleeding in exchange for stronger life drain? Do you want some Necro version of teleportation or stealth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinch.6490 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Lily.1935 said: > > @Kinch.6490 said: > > > @Lily.1935 said: > > > > @mygamingid.5816 said: > > > > One of the things that I feel hurts condi Necro and general Necro gameplay is Lingering Curse. With it (and some helpful fields), condi Necro is close to balanced with other classes. Without it, condi Necro falls far short. It's incredibly powerful - imagine giving Axe or any other power weapon a GM trait with +150 power and +50% damage. > > > > > > > > LC puts balance teams in a bad spot. If you don't balance to it, then builds using the trait will be overpowered. If you do balance to it, then anything not using it is underpowered. Dropping LC to a Master trait - perhaps swapping with Master of Corruption - and changing to a more standard bonus structure would allow a more evenhanded balance pass. > > > > > > This trait is actually quite similar to a Adept trait on Engineer called Chemical rounds. Both give a 50% boost that doesn't impact the over all condition duration allowing for 150% for those effected weapons. However There is something to note about this. Chemical rounds is less powerful for engineer than lingering curse is for necromancer, even though chemical rounds impacts 5 skills as opposed to 3. And the reason for that is the engineer's method of attack which requires them to swap weapons frequently. Losing this trait would have a lower impact on engi than lingering curse would on necromancer since condi necro's primary means of DPS is through its scepter while this isn't the case for engi. > > > > > > I'm not actually arguing against your point though. Just thought I'd point that out. In terms of your position on this trait I'm a neutral party here. I think its fine as a grandmaster, but I wouldn't be upset if it swapped places with master of corruption. > > > > I wish LC wasn't entirely specific to Scepter, especially being a GM. > > Speaking of Engi, they have a trait that increases Condi Damage by the exact same amount to nearby allies and doesn't require them to be locked into a specific weapon. It's Master-tier, as well. > > > > Can we please not balance necro in a nutshell, because I feel that's the main reason why it's falling behind. Its traits are generally pretty lackluster compared to the other professions', and they tend to pigeon-hole you in how they grant their effects, other wise they are wasted (e.g. Death Perception, Dhuumfire, Reaper's Onslaught). > > I think you have a point. As a Master Tier trait I think it could work quite well making master of corruption a grandmater and tuning it up to be more in line with that tier. I'd be okay with this. Overall? 50% duration is a full set of viper's gear and having a trait that does that for all skills or weapons is overkill. Beyond that though, Lingering curse should impact one other weapon. And that weapon is Trident. Its always frustrating doing underwater content and having a GM that does nothing for you in that zone. Yeah, I was just talking about the +150 Condi Damage, at least. 50% duration is huge (but it's also the Scepter-version of the standard CD-reduction trait), but Condi Necro is pretty much locked into Scepter in its current iteration. This is really going to hurt Scourge's DPS potential. if they make the Condi Damage global, it won't hurt the damage potential of Torch and Shades, at least. Despite being lackluster it's basically mandatory for Condi-Necros, and that should be an indicator of some of our problems. Also Necros need another Condi mainhand. Just camping scepter is awful. I'm probably going to run mainhand dagger with Scourge, simply because scepter can't generate enough life-force, but I don't know if the damage will balance out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 Speaking of underwater weapons, would it be possible to add a boon corrupt and/or a condi transfer baseline on them? Especially the trident. They are currently our only weapons that can't do either. (other than warhorn, and torch by the looks of it, wll be joining this list) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted September 14, 2017 Author Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Kinch.6490 said: > > @Lily.1935 said: > > > @Kinch.6490 said: > > > > @Lily.1935 said: > > > > > @mygamingid.5816 said: > > > > > One of the things that I feel hurts condi Necro and general Necro gameplay is Lingering Curse. With it (and some helpful fields), condi Necro is close to balanced with other classes. Without it, condi Necro falls far short. It's incredibly powerful - imagine giving Axe or any other power weapon a GM trait with +150 power and +50% damage. > > > > > > > > > > LC puts balance teams in a bad spot. If you don't balance to it, then builds using the trait will be overpowered. If you do balance to it, then anything not using it is underpowered. Dropping LC to a Master trait - perhaps swapping with Master of Corruption - and changing to a more standard bonus structure would allow a more evenhanded balance pass. > > > > > > > > This trait is actually quite similar to a Adept trait on Engineer called Chemical rounds. Both give a 50% boost that doesn't impact the over all condition duration allowing for 150% for those effected weapons. However There is something to note about this. Chemical rounds is less powerful for engineer than lingering curse is for necromancer, even though chemical rounds impacts 5 skills as opposed to 3. And the reason for that is the engineer's method of attack which requires them to swap weapons frequently. Losing this trait would have a lower impact on engi than lingering curse would on necromancer since condi necro's primary means of DPS is through its scepter while this isn't the case for engi. > > > > > > > > I'm not actually arguing against your point though. Just thought I'd point that out. In terms of your position on this trait I'm a neutral party here. I think its fine as a grandmaster, but I wouldn't be upset if it swapped places with master of corruption. > > > > > > I wish LC wasn't entirely specific to Scepter, especially being a GM. > > > Speaking of Engi, they have a trait that increases Condi Damage by the exact same amount to nearby allies and doesn't require them to be locked into a specific weapon. It's Master-tier, as well. > > > > > > Can we please not balance necro in a nutshell, because I feel that's the main reason why it's falling behind. Its traits are generally pretty lackluster compared to the other professions', and they tend to pigeon-hole you in how they grant their effects, other wise they are wasted (e.g. Death Perception, Dhuumfire, Reaper's Onslaught). > > > > I think you have a point. As a Master Tier trait I think it could work quite well making master of corruption a grandmater and tuning it up to be more in line with that tier. I'd be okay with this. Overall? 50% duration is a full set of viper's gear and having a trait that does that for all skills or weapons is overkill. Beyond that though, Lingering curse should impact one other weapon. And that weapon is Trident. Its always frustrating doing underwater content and having a GM that does nothing for you in that zone. > > Yeah, I was just talking about the +150 Condi Damage, at least. 50% duration is huge (but it's also the Scepter-version of the standard CD-reduction trait), but Condi Necro is pretty much locked into Scepter in its current iteration. This is really going to hurt Scourge's DPS potential. if they make the Condi Damage global, it won't hurt the damage potential of Torch and kitten, at least. Despite being lackluster it's basically mandatory for Condi-Necros, and that should be an indicator of some of our problems. > > Also Necros need another Condi mainhand. Just camping scepter is awful. I'm probably going to run mainhand dagger with Scourge, simply because scepter can't generate enough life-force, but I don't know if the damage will balance out. Staff. I've been running staff and I ran it in the stress test, it works great for PvE content and staff in general is just a fantastic weapon for PvP and WvW. It produces a lot of life force against mobs. And if you want to get technical, Staff is our second condition weapon. It would be Scepter, off hand dagger, staff and now torch. Staff leans more on the side of control than damage, but its primary means of DPS are all conditions. Putrid mark is even a transfer which I'd consider a condi DPS thing, at least on necromancer. Might be interesting to see a trait that turns dagger into a condi weapon though. I don't think it could be condi on its own. But this is a bit off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenith.7301 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Lily.1935 said: > > @Kinch.6490 said: > > > @Lily.1935 said: > > > > @Kinch.6490 said: > > > > > @Lily.1935 said: > > > > > > @mygamingid.5816 said: > > > > > > One of the things that I feel hurts condi Necro and general Necro gameplay is Lingering Curse. With it (and some helpful fields), condi Necro is close to balanced with other classes. Without it, condi Necro falls far short. It's incredibly powerful - imagine giving Axe or any other power weapon a GM trait with +150 power and +50% damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > LC puts balance teams in a bad spot. If you don't balance to it, then builds using the trait will be overpowered. If you do balance to it, then anything not using it is underpowered. Dropping LC to a Master trait - perhaps swapping with Master of Corruption - and changing to a more standard bonus structure would allow a more evenhanded balance pass. > > > > > > > > > > This trait is actually quite similar to a Adept trait on Engineer called Chemical rounds. Both give a 50% boost that doesn't impact the over all condition duration allowing for 150% for those effected weapons. However There is something to note about this. Chemical rounds is less powerful for engineer than lingering curse is for necromancer, even though chemical rounds impacts 5 skills as opposed to 3. And the reason for that is the engineer's method of attack which requires them to swap weapons frequently. Losing this trait would have a lower impact on engi than lingering curse would on necromancer since condi necro's primary means of DPS is through its scepter while this isn't the case for engi. > > > > > > > > > > I'm not actually arguing against your point though. Just thought I'd point that out. In terms of your position on this trait I'm a neutral party here. I think its fine as a grandmaster, but I wouldn't be upset if it swapped places with master of corruption. > > > > > > > > I wish LC wasn't entirely specific to Scepter, especially being a GM. > > > > Speaking of Engi, they have a trait that increases Condi Damage by the exact same amount to nearby allies and doesn't require them to be locked into a specific weapon. It's Master-tier, as well. > > > > > > > > Can we please not balance necro in a nutshell, because I feel that's the main reason why it's falling behind. Its traits are generally pretty lackluster compared to the other professions', and they tend to pigeon-hole you in how they grant their effects, other wise they are wasted (e.g. Death Perception, Dhuumfire, Reaper's Onslaught). > > > > > > I think you have a point. As a Master Tier trait I think it could work quite well making master of corruption a grandmater and tuning it up to be more in line with that tier. I'd be okay with this. Overall? 50% duration is a full set of viper's gear and having a trait that does that for all skills or weapons is overkill. Beyond that though, Lingering curse should impact one other weapon. And that weapon is Trident. Its always frustrating doing underwater content and having a GM that does nothing for you in that zone. > > > > Yeah, I was just talking about the +150 Condi Damage, at least. 50% duration is huge (but it's also the Scepter-version of the standard CD-reduction trait), but Condi Necro is pretty much locked into Scepter in its current iteration. This is really going to hurt Scourge's DPS potential. if they make the Condi Damage global, it won't hurt the damage potential of Torch and kitten, at least. Despite being lackluster it's basically mandatory for Condi-Necros, and that should be an indicator of some of our problems. > > > > Also Necros need another Condi mainhand. Just camping scepter is awful. I'm probably going to run mainhand dagger with Scourge, simply because scepter can't generate enough life-force, but I don't know if the damage will balance out. > > Staff. I've been running staff and I ran it in the stress test, it works great for PvE content and staff in general is just a fantastic weapon for PvP and WvW. It produces a lot of life force against mobs. And if you want to get technical, Staff is our second condition weapon. It would be Scepter, off hand dagger, staff and now torch. Staff leans more on the side of control than damage, but its primary means of DPS are all conditions. Putrid mark is even a transfer which I'd consider a condi DPS thing, at least on necromancer. > > Might be interesting to see a trait that turns dagger into a condi weapon though. I don't think it could be condi on its own. But this is a bit off topic. Staff is a terrible weapon in pve that's good for nothing but tagging mobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted September 14, 2017 Author Share Posted September 14, 2017 Lets Speculate on shroud utility a bit more. This is one of the things I'm pushing for most, so I'm going to keep bringing it back up. I would like some more Discussion on Corruption skills as well, but i'm going to talk on this for the moment. As it stands right now my thoughts on the matter of Skills in shroud costing life force is that they should have a fixed number. Maybe 3.5k-4k depending. Elites a bit more than that. So if a necromancer decides to run high vitality it will impact their life force which would allow them to cast more skills with less risk to yourself since it'll take a smaller percentage. This could also make spectral skills a bit more interesting as they offer a means to gain back a percentage rather than a fixed number. Going beyond that I think some skills could actually have different values and this could be another way to balance out those skills if they were to get out of hand in shroud. Pushing on with the traits and how they could synergies with this we can have traits that trigger off of life force spending or could reduce its cost. These could be simple, like for example you could have a trait that states "When you spend life force your next 3 attacks inflict poison" which if you are using a skill that strikes foes it could be an effective way to add the condition to that attack. While on my first example of Cultist's Fervor which could say "spending life force costs 2k more to use but X happens" which could further adjust the values you have to consider. There could also be a trait that reduces the cost of life force, and not just increases it. The possibilities for Future elite specs open up quite a bit as well. I like that we've lost a proper shroud with Scourge and its a pattern I think could be continued even further. New elite specs would be pushing this "Life force" spending mechanic even further. Perhaps spending life force suddenly heals allies around you? Something along those lines could be quite interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinch.6490 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Lily.1935 said: > > @Kinch.6490 said: > > > @Lily.1935 said: > > > > @Kinch.6490 said: > > > > > @Lily.1935 said: > > > > > > @mygamingid.5816 said: > > > > > > One of the things that I feel hurts condi Necro and general Necro gameplay is Lingering Curse. With it (and some helpful fields), condi Necro is close to balanced with other classes. Without it, condi Necro falls far short. It's incredibly powerful - imagine giving Axe or any other power weapon a GM trait with +150 power and +50% damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > LC puts balance teams in a bad spot. If you don't balance to it, then builds using the trait will be overpowered. If you do balance to it, then anything not using it is underpowered. Dropping LC to a Master trait - perhaps swapping with Master of Corruption - and changing to a more standard bonus structure would allow a more evenhanded balance pass. > > > > > > > > > > This trait is actually quite similar to a Adept trait on Engineer called Chemical rounds. Both give a 50% boost that doesn't impact the over all condition duration allowing for 150% for those effected weapons. However There is something to note about this. Chemical rounds is less powerful for engineer than lingering curse is for necromancer, even though chemical rounds impacts 5 skills as opposed to 3. And the reason for that is the engineer's method of attack which requires them to swap weapons frequently. Losing this trait would have a lower impact on engi than lingering curse would on necromancer since condi necro's primary means of DPS is through its scepter while this isn't the case for engi. > > > > > > > > > > I'm not actually arguing against your point though. Just thought I'd point that out. In terms of your position on this trait I'm a neutral party here. I think its fine as a grandmaster, but I wouldn't be upset if it swapped places with master of corruption. > > > > > > > > I wish LC wasn't entirely specific to Scepter, especially being a GM. > > > > Speaking of Engi, they have a trait that increases Condi Damage by the exact same amount to nearby allies and doesn't require them to be locked into a specific weapon. It's Master-tier, as well. > > > > > > > > Can we please not balance necro in a nutshell, because I feel that's the main reason why it's falling behind. Its traits are generally pretty lackluster compared to the other professions', and they tend to pigeon-hole you in how they grant their effects, other wise they are wasted (e.g. Death Perception, Dhuumfire, Reaper's Onslaught). > > > > > > I think you have a point. As a Master Tier trait I think it could work quite well making master of corruption a grandmater and tuning it up to be more in line with that tier. I'd be okay with this. Overall? 50% duration is a full set of viper's gear and having a trait that does that for all skills or weapons is overkill. Beyond that though, Lingering curse should impact one other weapon. And that weapon is Trident. Its always frustrating doing underwater content and having a GM that does nothing for you in that zone. > > > > Yeah, I was just talking about the +150 Condi Damage, at least. 50% duration is huge (but it's also the Scepter-version of the standard CD-reduction trait), but Condi Necro is pretty much locked into Scepter in its current iteration. This is really going to hurt Scourge's DPS potential. if they make the Condi Damage global, it won't hurt the damage potential of Torch and kitten, at least. Despite being lackluster it's basically mandatory for Condi-Necros, and that should be an indicator of some of our problems. > > > > Also Necros need another Condi mainhand. Just camping scepter is awful. I'm probably going to run mainhand dagger with Scourge, simply because scepter can't generate enough life-force, but I don't know if the damage will balance out. > > Staff. I've been running staff and I ran it in the stress test, it works great for PvE content and staff in general is just a fantastic weapon for PvP and WvW. It produces a lot of life force against mobs. And if you want to get technical, Staff is our second condition weapon. It would be Scepter, off hand dagger, staff and now torch. Staff leans more on the side of control than damage, but its primary means of DPS are all conditions. Putrid mark is even a transfer which I'd consider a condi DPS thing, at least on necromancer. > > Might be interesting to see a trait that turns dagger into a condi weapon though. I don't think it could be condi on its own. But this is a bit off topic. Staff is more of a hybrid utility weapon. The auto doesn't apply condis, and is probably the worst auto in the game. Only two of the marks apply damaging conditions (if not traited for damage on fear, and condi-transfer is more utility than DPS), one of which is on a 16s CD (so you are really only applying 2 8s bleeds every 4.75 seconds, and 3 5s poison every 16s). Staff is only used in WvW because of its AoE and utility. I think it's generally useless in PvE, and I 100% support a rework of the auto, at least. It needs something that is faster, and compliments the awesome scythe theme (like bouncing sickles that torment or bleed... or torment their first target, and bleed the next 2 for a reduced duration each bounce). That way Power Necros won't get mad about people begging for Dagger to become a hybrid weapon, and Staff will become less useless in PvE. If people complain about WvW, split the skills. Sorry if I'm getting more off-topic. The variety of weapons available to different builds adds to depth, though. Weapon-swapping just for different off-hands harms the depth of the profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klypto.1703 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 Necro's need a very very close look because they are fine in PvE and PvP but in WvW they are out of control. So much to the point that you just see a lot of people playing it just because the class is going to carry them. Then you have classes like revenant that have really bad condition management that auto attack on scepter will just destroy a rev working their butt off to stay alive. They did do some things with ventari but it requires too much micro management to use. So my view on it is this scourge spec is just going to make an already chaotic situation even worse. So my opinion on this is that there needs to be seperate game mode versions or either giving necros a really hard nerf to the point that it makes gameplay diverse and fun again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted September 14, 2017 Author Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Kinch.6490 said: > > @Lily.1935 said: > > > @Kinch.6490 said: > > > > @Lily.1935 said: > > > > > @Kinch.6490 said: > > > > > > @Lily.1935 said: > > > > > > > @mygamingid.5816 said: > > > > > > > One of the things that I feel hurts condi Necro and general Necro gameplay is Lingering Curse. With it (and some helpful fields), condi Necro is close to balanced with other classes. Without it, condi Necro falls far short. It's incredibly powerful - imagine giving Axe or any other power weapon a GM trait with +150 power and +50% damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LC puts balance teams in a bad spot. If you don't balance to it, then builds using the trait will be overpowered. If you do balance to it, then anything not using it is underpowered. Dropping LC to a Master trait - perhaps swapping with Master of Corruption - and changing to a more standard bonus structure would allow a more evenhanded balance pass. > > > > > > > > > > > > This trait is actually quite similar to a Adept trait on Engineer called Chemical rounds. Both give a 50% boost that doesn't impact the over all condition duration allowing for 150% for those effected weapons. However There is something to note about this. Chemical rounds is less powerful for engineer than lingering curse is for necromancer, even though chemical rounds impacts 5 skills as opposed to 3. And the reason for that is the engineer's method of attack which requires them to swap weapons frequently. Losing this trait would have a lower impact on engi than lingering curse would on necromancer since condi necro's primary means of DPS is through its scepter while this isn't the case for engi. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not actually arguing against your point though. Just thought I'd point that out. In terms of your position on this trait I'm a neutral party here. I think its fine as a grandmaster, but I wouldn't be upset if it swapped places with master of corruption. > > > > > > > > > > I wish LC wasn't entirely specific to Scepter, especially being a GM. > > > > > Speaking of Engi, they have a trait that increases Condi Damage by the exact same amount to nearby allies and doesn't require them to be locked into a specific weapon. It's Master-tier, as well. > > > > > > > > > > Can we please not balance necro in a nutshell, because I feel that's the main reason why it's falling behind. Its traits are generally pretty lackluster compared to the other professions', and they tend to pigeon-hole you in how they grant their effects, other wise they are wasted (e.g. Death Perception, Dhuumfire, Reaper's Onslaught). > > > > > > > > I think you have a point. As a Master Tier trait I think it could work quite well making master of corruption a grandmater and tuning it up to be more in line with that tier. I'd be okay with this. Overall? 50% duration is a full set of viper's gear and having a trait that does that for all skills or weapons is overkill. Beyond that though, Lingering curse should impact one other weapon. And that weapon is Trident. Its always frustrating doing underwater content and having a GM that does nothing for you in that zone. > > > > > > Yeah, I was just talking about the +150 Condi Damage, at least. 50% duration is huge (but it's also the Scepter-version of the standard CD-reduction trait), but Condi Necro is pretty much locked into Scepter in its current iteration. This is really going to hurt Scourge's DPS potential. if they make the Condi Damage global, it won't hurt the damage potential of Torch and kitten, at least. Despite being lackluster it's basically mandatory for Condi-Necros, and that should be an indicator of some of our problems. > > > > > > Also Necros need another Condi mainhand. Just camping scepter is awful. I'm probably going to run mainhand dagger with Scourge, simply because scepter can't generate enough life-force, but I don't know if the damage will balance out. > > > > Staff. I've been running staff and I ran it in the stress test, it works great for PvE content and staff in general is just a fantastic weapon for PvP and WvW. It produces a lot of life force against mobs. And if you want to get technical, Staff is our second condition weapon. It would be Scepter, off hand dagger, staff and now torch. Staff leans more on the side of control than damage, but its primary means of DPS are all conditions. Putrid mark is even a transfer which I'd consider a condi DPS thing, at least on necromancer. > > > > Might be interesting to see a trait that turns dagger into a condi weapon though. I don't think it could be condi on its own. But this is a bit off topic. > > Staff is more of a hybrid utility weapon. The auto doesn't apply condis, and is probably the worst auto in the game. Only two of the marks apply damaging conditions (if not traited for damage on fear, and condi-transfer is more utility than DPS), one of which is on a 16s CD (so you are really only applying 2 8s bleeds every 4.75 seconds, and 3 5s poison every 16s). Staff is only used in WvW because of its AoE and utility. I think it's generally useless in PvE, and I 100% support a rework of the auto, at least. It needs something that is faster, and compliments the awesome scythe theme (like bouncing sickles that torment or bleed... or torment their first target, and bleed the next 2 for a reduced duration each bounce). That way Power Necros won't get mad about people begging for Dagger to become a hybrid weapon, and Staff will become less useless in PvE. If people complain about WvW, split the skills. > > Sorry if I'm getting more off-topic. The variety of weapons available to different builds adds to depth, though. Weapon-swapping just for different off-hands harms the depth of the profession. Highly disagree on its uses in PvE. Its a fantastic weapon and I have found no better replacement as a secondary weapon on my condi build in all my 6k hours of game time. I think its numbers might be a bit low, however this isn't a reflection on its utility in pve, of which it has quite a bit. I can't tell you how many times the fear has saved me or our group from some serious problems in something like fractals. And beyond that its auto has 4% life force gain, per target hit. If it hits 5 targets that's 20% life force gain and even at 4 targets that still 16% and at 3 that's still 12%. It was fantastic in testing with the scourge, it has been fantastic for years and its still fantastic. Its not good in raids, I'll give you that. But it is still a fantastic weapon and I'll defend it to my grave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinch.6490 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Lily.1935 said: > Lets Speculate on shroud utility a bit more. This is one of the things I'm pushing for most, so I'm going to keep bringing it back up. I would like some more Discussion on Corruption skills as well, but i'm going to talk on this for the moment. > > As it stands right now my thoughts on the matter of Skills in shroud costing life force is that they should have a fixed number. Maybe 3.5k-4k depending. Elites a bit more than that. So if a necromancer decides to run high vitality it will impact their life force which would allow them to cast more skills with less risk to yourself since it'll take a smaller percentage. This could also make spectral skills a bit more interesting as they offer a means to gain back a percentage rather than a fixed number. Going beyond that I think some skills could actually have different values and this could be another way to balance out those skills if they were to get out of hand in shroud. > > Pushing on with the traits and how they could synergies with this we can have traits that trigger off of life force spending or could reduce its cost. These could be simple, like for example you could have a trait that states "When you spend life force your next 3 attacks inflict poison" which if you are using a skill that strikes foes it could be an effective way to add the condition to that attack. While on my first example of Cultist's Fervor which could say "spending life force costs 2k more to use but X happens" which could further adjust the values you have to consider. There could also be a trait that reduces the cost of life force, and not just increases it. > > The possibilities for Future elite specs open up quite a bit as well. I like that we've lost a proper shroud with Scourge and its a pattern I think could be continued even further. New elite specs would be pushing this "Life force" spending mechanic even further. Perhaps spending life force suddenly heals allies around you? Something along those lines could be quite interesting. I like the idea of only Spectral skills becoming available in Shroud for the following reasons: * The devs don't seem too keen on opening up too many utilities to shroud. * It adds some decision-making to when you use the utilities. (Do you want to use it outside of shroud to get into shroud faster, or do you want to use it while shrouded to make shroud stronger?) * It strengthens the position of an unpopular skill-type and trait. * It can buff either power or condi, and can make it so that staying in shroud isn't a DPS loss. * It gets rid of the whole "we can't buff necro because 2 health-bars" argument, because this DPS is going to have a direct LF-cost. * Spectral skills are already in Soul Reaping, so they should have the most synergy with Shroud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted September 14, 2017 Author Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Kinch.6490 said: > > @Lily.1935 said: > > Lets Speculate on shroud utility a bit more. This is one of the things I'm pushing for most, so I'm going to keep bringing it back up. I would like some more Discussion on Corruption skills as well, but i'm going to talk on this for the moment. > > > > As it stands right now my thoughts on the matter of Skills in shroud costing life force is that they should have a fixed number. Maybe 3.5k-4k depending. Elites a bit more than that. So if a necromancer decides to run high vitality it will impact their life force which would allow them to cast more skills with less risk to yourself since it'll take a smaller percentage. This could also make spectral skills a bit more interesting as they offer a means to gain back a percentage rather than a fixed number. Going beyond that I think some skills could actually have different values and this could be another way to balance out those skills if they were to get out of hand in shroud. > > > > Pushing on with the traits and how they could synergies with this we can have traits that trigger off of life force spending or could reduce its cost. These could be simple, like for example you could have a trait that states "When you spend life force your next 3 attacks inflict poison" which if you are using a skill that strikes foes it could be an effective way to add the condition to that attack. While on my first example of Cultist's Fervor which could say "spending life force costs 2k more to use but X happens" which could further adjust the values you have to consider. There could also be a trait that reduces the cost of life force, and not just increases it. > > > > The possibilities for Future elite specs open up quite a bit as well. I like that we've lost a proper shroud with Scourge and its a pattern I think could be continued even further. New elite specs would be pushing this "Life force" spending mechanic even further. Perhaps spending life force suddenly heals allies around you? Something along those lines could be quite interesting. > > I like the idea of only Spectral skills becoming available in Shroud for the following reasons: > * The devs don't seem too keen on opening up too many utilities to shroud. > * It adds some decision-making to when you use the utilities. (Do you want to use it outside of shroud to get into shroud faster, or do you want to use it while shrouded to make shroud stronger?) > * It strengthens the position of an unpopular skill-type and trait. > * It can buff either power or condi, and can make it so that staying in shroud isn't a DPS loss. > * It gets rid of the whole "we can't buff necro because 2 health-bars" argument, because this DPS is going to have a direct LF-cost. > * Spectral skills are already in Soul Reaping, so they should have the most synergy with Shroud. I'm not a fan of this. Just one skill type will get people to ask why not all skill typse extremely quick. This wouldn't be a very good decision on their part. Spectral skills are actually used quite frequently. Well, Spectral armor and spectral walk are. The other 3 don't see much use because of a lack of utility. Spectral grasp has a cool down that is far beyond what is reasonable for what it does as well as spectral wall. Lich form isn't balanced too well for what its trying to do either and is just clunky. Even if spectral skills were buffed you'd still take vital persistence over their trait. As it stands, having just one skill type being available slams the door on new balance options and rather than incentivizing diversity of skill use it makes spectral armor even more required in places like PvP than it already is. Spectral grasp, spectral wall and Lich form still wouldn't see much use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinch.6490 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Lily.1935 said: > > @Kinch.6490 said: > > > @Lily.1935 said: > > > Lets Speculate on shroud utility a bit more. This is one of the things I'm pushing for most, so I'm going to keep bringing it back up. I would like some more Discussion on Corruption skills as well, but i'm going to talk on this for the moment. > > > > > > As it stands right now my thoughts on the matter of Skills in shroud costing life force is that they should have a fixed number. Maybe 3.5k-4k depending. Elites a bit more than that. So if a necromancer decides to run high vitality it will impact their life force which would allow them to cast more skills with less risk to yourself since it'll take a smaller percentage. This could also make spectral skills a bit more interesting as they offer a means to gain back a percentage rather than a fixed number. Going beyond that I think some skills could actually have different values and this could be another way to balance out those skills if they were to get out of hand in shroud. > > > > > > Pushing on with the traits and how they could synergies with this we can have traits that trigger off of life force spending or could reduce its cost. These could be simple, like for example you could have a trait that states "When you spend life force your next 3 attacks inflict poison" which if you are using a skill that strikes foes it could be an effective way to add the condition to that attack. While on my first example of Cultist's Fervor which could say "spending life force costs 2k more to use but X happens" which could further adjust the values you have to consider. There could also be a trait that reduces the cost of life force, and not just increases it. > > > > > > The possibilities for Future elite specs open up quite a bit as well. I like that we've lost a proper shroud with Scourge and its a pattern I think could be continued even further. New elite specs would be pushing this "Life force" spending mechanic even further. Perhaps spending life force suddenly heals allies around you? Something along those lines could be quite interesting. > > > > I like the idea of only Spectral skills becoming available in Shroud for the following reasons: > > * The devs don't seem too keen on opening up too many utilities to shroud. > > * It adds some decision-making to when you use the utilities. (Do you want to use it outside of shroud to get into shroud faster, or do you want to use it while shrouded to make shroud stronger?) > > * It strengthens the position of an unpopular skill-type and trait. > > * It can buff either power or condi, and can make it so that staying in shroud isn't a DPS loss. > > * It gets rid of the whole "we can't buff necro because 2 health-bars" argument, because this DPS is going to have a direct LF-cost. > > * Spectral skills are already in Soul Reaping, so they should have the most synergy with Shroud. > > I'm not a fan of this. Just one skill type will get people to ask why not all skill typse extremely quick. This wouldn't be a very good decision on their part. Spectral skills are actually used quite frequently. Well, Spectral armor and spectral walk are. The other 3 don't see much use because of a lack of utility. Spectral grasp has a cool down that is far beyond what is reasonable for what it does as well as spectral wall. Lich form isn't balanced too well for what its trying to do either and is just clunky. Even if spectral skills were buffed you'd still take vital persistence over their trait. > > As it stands, having just one skill type being available slams the door on new balance options and rather than incentivizing diversity of skill use it makes spectral armor even more required in places like PvP than it already is. Spectral grasp, spectral wall and Lich form still wouldn't see much use. An argument against Vital Persistence is that now it only provides some Vitality and Reduced CDs on Shroud skills. If shroud gets a damage boost from utilities, then Reaper's Onslaught might be worth taking, which already decreases CDs on Shroud skills. Making Spectral skills act this way would allow the devs to balance whatever skills appropriately, and I don't think any of the current utilities would be ground-breaking if they were allowed in Shroud... it would just be a sort of QoL improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kKagari.6804 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 Just design 6-0 skills specifically for shroud, there's no reason why such a restrictive class mechanic should be tied down to only having 5 skills. With 6-0 skills you can potentially address EVERY SINGLE ISSUE we have currently. This has been something that was suggested back in 2012, when death shroud only had FOUR SKILLS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted September 14, 2017 Author Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Kinch.6490 said: > > @Lily.1935 said: > > > @Kinch.6490 said: > > > > @Lily.1935 said: > > > > Lets Speculate on shroud utility a bit more. This is one of the things I'm pushing for most, so I'm going to keep bringing it back up. I would like some more Discussion on Corruption skills as well, but i'm going to talk on this for the moment. > > > > > > > > As it stands right now my thoughts on the matter of Skills in shroud costing life force is that they should have a fixed number. Maybe 3.5k-4k depending. Elites a bit more than that. So if a necromancer decides to run high vitality it will impact their life force which would allow them to cast more skills with less risk to yourself since it'll take a smaller percentage. This could also make spectral skills a bit more interesting as they offer a means to gain back a percentage rather than a fixed number. Going beyond that I think some skills could actually have different values and this could be another way to balance out those skills if they were to get out of hand in shroud. > > > > > > > > Pushing on with the traits and how they could synergies with this we can have traits that trigger off of life force spending or could reduce its cost. These could be simple, like for example you could have a trait that states "When you spend life force your next 3 attacks inflict poison" which if you are using a skill that strikes foes it could be an effective way to add the condition to that attack. While on my first example of Cultist's Fervor which could say "spending life force costs 2k more to use but X happens" which could further adjust the values you have to consider. There could also be a trait that reduces the cost of life force, and not just increases it. > > > > > > > > The possibilities for Future elite specs open up quite a bit as well. I like that we've lost a proper shroud with Scourge and its a pattern I think could be continued even further. New elite specs would be pushing this "Life force" spending mechanic even further. Perhaps spending life force suddenly heals allies around you? Something along those lines could be quite interesting. > > > > > > I like the idea of only Spectral skills becoming available in Shroud for the following reasons: > > > * The devs don't seem too keen on opening up too many utilities to shroud. > > > * It adds some decision-making to when you use the utilities. (Do you want to use it outside of shroud to get into shroud faster, or do you want to use it while shrouded to make shroud stronger?) > > > * It strengthens the position of an unpopular skill-type and trait. > > > * It can buff either power or condi, and can make it so that staying in shroud isn't a DPS loss. > > > * It gets rid of the whole "we can't buff necro because 2 health-bars" argument, because this DPS is going to have a direct LF-cost. > > > * Spectral skills are already in Soul Reaping, so they should have the most synergy with Shroud. > > > > I'm not a fan of this. Just one skill type will get people to ask why not all skill typse extremely quick. This wouldn't be a very good decision on their part. Spectral skills are actually used quite frequently. Well, Spectral armor and spectral walk are. The other 3 don't see much use because of a lack of utility. Spectral grasp has a cool down that is far beyond what is reasonable for what it does as well as spectral wall. Lich form isn't balanced too well for what its trying to do either and is just clunky. Even if spectral skills were buffed you'd still take vital persistence over their trait. > > > > As it stands, having just one skill type being available slams the door on new balance options and rather than incentivizing diversity of skill use it makes spectral armor even more required in places like PvP than it already is. Spectral grasp, spectral wall and Lich form still wouldn't see much use. > > An argument against Vital Persistence is that now it only provides some Vitality and Reduced CDs on Shroud skills. If shroud gets a damage boost from utilities, then Reaper's Onslaught might be worth taking, which already decreases CDs on Shroud skills. > > Making Spectral skills act this way would allow the devs to balance whatever skills appropriately, and I don't think any of the current utilities would be ground-breaking if they were allowed in Shroud... it would just be a sort of QoL improvement. It wouldn't just be quality of life, but it would open new build possibilities as well as new style of traits. Breaking the mold we're in that we are one of the most predictable classes to face off against, this strips much of that predictability away. Scourge doesn't have this problem as they always have access to their utility, which is a major boon in their favor for meaningful gameplay and decision making. Core and reaper don't have that option. Scourge at any moment has far more it can do in a situation than a Reaper. Reaper if its in trouble, enter reaper's shroud and tank hits. Its a very passive means of play and offers very little in terms of meaningful choices. Scourge on the other hand can do far more. They have the desert shroud, an aoe fear as well as condi cleans just active at all times. THey can use their abilities to buffer a bit of damage, which makes gameplay more meaningful. While they have these options they are also not locked out of their utility so if they need to they could use something like Sand swell to escape a situation. Having Spectral skills in shroud would be nice, and I want that but not without the other utility. Especially since Lich form synergies so poorly with shroud as it stands and my suggestion wouldn't fix that either, but the fact that it has no synergy would actually be exacerbated with the exclusion of other utility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted September 14, 2017 Author Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @kKagari.6804 said: > Just design 6-0 skills specifically for shroud, there's no reason why such a restrictive class mechanic should be tied down to only having 5 skills. With 6-0 skills you can potentially address EVERY SINGLE ISSUE we have currently. > > This has been something that was suggested back in 2012, when death shroud only had FOUR SKILLS. We also need to look at the practicality of doing something like that. Arena net would then need to design 10 new skills for the necromancer and reaper that fit in their respective themes which is quite a bit of work. Utility still becomes the cleanest solution since it would offer cross synergy that new skills or limiting it to one skill type wouldn't do. Utility is the cleanest solution to this dilemma. And we aren't just looking at utility here, but also Heal and elite skills. Imagine the buffer that the reaper could gain with their infusing terror which could work into "chill to the bone" which is notorious for being easily disrupted. Or look at Heal skills that often go under used. Signet of Vampirism would still maintain its passive healing in shroud, you just wouldn't get its active effect. Other options also include something like Foot in the grave. Lets say you need a skill to get off, but you can't afford to cast it in a situation for fear of being CCed. You could use Foot in the grave to give you room to use it. All for the cost of life force. And of course if you don't have enough life force those skills get grayed out. Can't spend what you don't have. Other options that open up to us is how the community really wants proper Damage and support. Scourge gives quite a bit of that, but players still want it with shroud. Using this philosophy of attaching a cost to it by sacrificing our defenses we could push to higher points of DPS and support that other professions have the luxury of having. Do you use your life force as a means to soak damage? Or do you burn through it, not caring about your personal survival for support and damage? This is a decision I've always been interested in, and Scourge does this, but I want to see this option for our core as well. The synergy possibilities are amazing as well. Specializations could really use these options too. Some traits that have passive effects that trigger every few seconds while in shroud, but those don't work very well with scourge. Most of those triggering every 3 seconds means you'll get 2 activations from them from desert shroud which is kinda a feel bad. These traits being turned over from a passive trigger to a active choice with your life force spending abilities could really open the door to new possibilities for scourge, let alone Core and reaper. And Since their proc would be more difficult to achieve, they could be tuned up. Imagine Rending shroud on a Reaper for a moment. Lets tune it up a bit. It still does the 3 vuln but lets add a small bit of physical damage to that. Well, now you can take shouts or wells on reaper and get close to someone and use your utility to boost your DPS, at the cost of some life force. You sacrifice your survivability for the DPS. Just an idea, but its something to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kKagari.6804 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Lily.1935 said: > > @kKagari.6804 said: > > Just design 6-0 skills specifically for shroud, there's no reason why such a restrictive class mechanic should be tied down to only having 5 skills. With 6-0 skills you can potentially address EVERY SINGLE ISSUE we have currently. > > > > This has been something that was suggested back in 2012, when death shroud only had FOUR SKILLS. > > We also need to look at the practicality of doing something like that. Arena net would then need to design 10 new skills for the necromancer and reaper that fit in their respective themes which is quite a bit of work. Utility still becomes the cleanest solution since it would offer cross synergy that new skills or limiting it to one skill type wouldn't do. > > Utility is the cleanest solution to this dilemma. And we aren't just looking at utility here, but also Heal and elite skills. Imagine the buffer that the reaper could gain with their infusing terror which could work into "chill to the bone" which is notorious for being easily disrupted. Or look at Heal skills that often go under used. Signet of Vampirism would still maintain its passive healing in shroud, you just wouldn't get its active effect. Other options also include something like Foot in the grave. Lets say you need a skill to get off, but you can't afford to cast it in a situation for fear of being CCed. You could use Foot in the grave to give you room to use it. All for the cost of life force. And of course if you don't have enough life force those skills get grayed out. Can't spend what you don't have. > > Other options that open up to us is how the community really wants proper Damage and support. Scourge gives quite a bit of that, but players still want it with shroud. Using this philosophy of attaching a cost to it by sacrificing our defenses we could push to higher points of DPS and support that other professions have the luxury of having. Do you use your life force as a means to soak damage? Or do you burn through it, not caring about your personal survival for support and damage? This is a decision I've always been interested in, and Scourge does this, but I want to see this option for our core as well. The synergy possibilities are amazing as well. > > Specializations could really use these options too. Some traits that have passive effects that trigger every few seconds while in shroud, but those don't work very well with scourge. Most of those triggering every 3 seconds means you'll get 2 activations from them from desert shroud which is kinda a feel bad. These traits being turned over from a passive trigger to a active choice with your life force spending abilities could really open the door to new possibilities for scourge, let alone Core and reaper. And Since their proc would be more difficult to achieve, they could be tuned up. Imagine Rending shroud on a Reaper for a moment. Lets tune it up a bit. It still does the 3 vuln but lets add a small bit of physical damage to that. Well, now you can take shouts or wells on reaper and get close to someone and use your utility to boost your DPS, at the cost of some life force. You sacrifice your survivability for the DPS. Just an idea, but its something to think about. I'm more of the stance that I'd rather something done right, albiet requiring a lengthy amount of time, then done hastily and is of a piecemeal nature. Look at the amount of new skills weaver and soulbeast got. It isn't actually too much to imagine they can smack up an additional ten skills for DS and RS. And they don't actually need to be 'unique' skills. We could say get a consume conditions shroud heal skill that only consumes 3 conditions, but will heal you through shroud, etc etc. All in all, I don't think 'quite a bit of work' should stop the correct thing being done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted September 14, 2017 Author Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @kKagari.6804 said: > > @Lily.1935 said: > > > @kKagari.6804 said: > > > Just design 6-0 skills specifically for shroud, there's no reason why such a restrictive class mechanic should be tied down to only having 5 skills. With 6-0 skills you can potentially address EVERY SINGLE ISSUE we have currently. > > > > > > This has been something that was suggested back in 2012, when death shroud only had FOUR SKILLS. > > > > We also need to look at the practicality of doing something like that. Arena net would then need to design 10 new skills for the necromancer and reaper that fit in their respective themes which is quite a bit of work. Utility still becomes the cleanest solution since it would offer cross synergy that new skills or limiting it to one skill type wouldn't do. > > > > Utility is the cleanest solution to this dilemma. And we aren't just looking at utility here, but also Heal and elite skills. Imagine the buffer that the reaper could gain with their infusing terror which could work into "chill to the bone" which is notorious for being easily disrupted. Or look at Heal skills that often go under used. Signet of Vampirism would still maintain its passive healing in shroud, you just wouldn't get its active effect. Other options also include something like Foot in the grave. Lets say you need a skill to get off, but you can't afford to cast it in a situation for fear of being CCed. You could use Foot in the grave to give you room to use it. All for the cost of life force. And of course if you don't have enough life force those skills get grayed out. Can't spend what you don't have. > > > > Other options that open up to us is how the community really wants proper Damage and support. Scourge gives quite a bit of that, but players still want it with shroud. Using this philosophy of attaching a cost to it by sacrificing our defenses we could push to higher points of DPS and support that other professions have the luxury of having. Do you use your life force as a means to soak damage? Or do you burn through it, not caring about your personal survival for support and damage? This is a decision I've always been interested in, and Scourge does this, but I want to see this option for our core as well. The synergy possibilities are amazing as well. > > > > Specializations could really use these options too. Some traits that have passive effects that trigger every few seconds while in shroud, but those don't work very well with scourge. Most of those triggering every 3 seconds means you'll get 2 activations from them from desert shroud which is kinda a feel bad. These traits being turned over from a passive trigger to a active choice with your life force spending abilities could really open the door to new possibilities for scourge, let alone Core and reaper. And Since their proc would be more difficult to achieve, they could be tuned up. Imagine Rending shroud on a Reaper for a moment. Lets tune it up a bit. It still does the 3 vuln but lets add a small bit of physical damage to that. Well, now you can take shouts or wells on reaper and get close to someone and use your utility to boost your DPS, at the cost of some life force. You sacrifice your survivability for the DPS. Just an idea, but its something to think about. > > I'm more of the stance that I'd rather something done right, albiet requiring a lengthy amount of time, then done hastily and is of a piecemeal nature. Look at the amount of new skills weaver and soulbeast got. It isn't actually too much to imagine they can smack up an additional ten skills for DS and RS. And they don't actually need to be 'unique' skills. We could say get a consume conditions shroud heal skill that only consumes 3 conditions, but will heal you through shroud, etc etc. > > All in all, I don't think 'quite a bit of work' should stop the correct thing being done. > @kKagari.6804 said: > > @Lily.1935 said: > > > @kKagari.6804 said: > > > Just design 6-0 skills specifically for shroud, there's no reason why such a restrictive class mechanic should be tied down to only having 5 skills. With 6-0 skills you can potentially address EVERY SINGLE ISSUE we have currently. > > > > > > This has been something that was suggested back in 2012, when death shroud only had FOUR SKILLS. > > > > We also need to look at the practicality of doing something like that. Arena net would then need to design 10 new skills for the necromancer and reaper that fit in their respective themes which is quite a bit of work. Utility still becomes the cleanest solution since it would offer cross synergy that new skills or limiting it to one skill type wouldn't do. > > > > Utility is the cleanest solution to this dilemma. And we aren't just looking at utility here, but also Heal and elite skills. Imagine the buffer that the reaper could gain with their infusing terror which could work into "chill to the bone" which is notorious for being easily disrupted. Or look at Heal skills that often go under used. Signet of Vampirism would still maintain its passive healing in shroud, you just wouldn't get its active effect. Other options also include something like Foot in the grave. Lets say you need a skill to get off, but you can't afford to cast it in a situation for fear of being CCed. You could use Foot in the grave to give you room to use it. All for the cost of life force. And of course if you don't have enough life force those skills get grayed out. Can't spend what you don't have. > > > > Other options that open up to us is how the community really wants proper Damage and support. Scourge gives quite a bit of that, but players still want it with shroud. Using this philosophy of attaching a cost to it by sacrificing our defenses we could push to higher points of DPS and support that other professions have the luxury of having. Do you use your life force as a means to soak damage? Or do you burn through it, not caring about your personal survival for support and damage? This is a decision I've always been interested in, and Scourge does this, but I want to see this option for our core as well. The synergy possibilities are amazing as well. > > > > Specializations could really use these options too. Some traits that have passive effects that trigger every few seconds while in shroud, but those don't work very well with scourge. Most of those triggering every 3 seconds means you'll get 2 activations from them from desert shroud which is kinda a feel bad. These traits being turned over from a passive trigger to a active choice with your life force spending abilities could really open the door to new possibilities for scourge, let alone Core and reaper. And Since their proc would be more difficult to achieve, they could be tuned up. Imagine Rending shroud on a Reaper for a moment. Lets tune it up a bit. It still does the 3 vuln but lets add a small bit of physical damage to that. Well, now you can take shouts or wells on reaper and get close to someone and use your utility to boost your DPS, at the cost of some life force. You sacrifice your survivability for the DPS. Just an idea, but its something to think about. > > I'm more of the stance that I'd rather something done right, albiet requiring a lengthy amount of time, then done hastily and is of a piecemeal nature. Look at the amount of new skills weaver and soulbeast got. It isn't actually too much to imagine they can smack up an additional ten skills for DS and RS. And they don't actually need to be 'unique' skills. We could say get a consume conditions shroud heal skill that only consumes 3 conditions, but will heal you through shroud, etc etc. > > All in all, I don't think 'quite a bit of work' should stop the correct thing being done. with an ever expanding skill list, we get more ways to screw up with more skills. This is kinda the nature of the beast. Look at TCGs ore GW1. This was the case all the time. adding 5 new skills for core especially might not be a great idea since people are more likely to drop that once they get into the elite specs. And this bloats the work required for future elite specs that might use shroud as well. And although Weaver and soulbeast have more skills added to them, those skills seem to be of a lower overall quality than the quality of what we've gained with the Shade abilities. I'm an Advocate of Quality. And sometimes you can have quality and quantity but often times its not always an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeftheWicked.3076 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 Apologies for late reply but i'm In Europe so you know - sleeping at night and stuff ;) > @Lily.1935 said: > > The way the necromancer interacts with conditions is complex, but not Deep. Let me explain. What you do with conditions is transfer them. The choice is fairly black and white, which isn't a deep way to interact with them. I don't think they need to be that deep but its not deep. In some cases its you either transfer them, or die. Revenant in the HoT beta had some really deep relations with conditions. Which it was awesome to work with conditions on your own, but didn't function well in group situations where allies would make choices in removing your conditions for you rather than allowing you your own control over them. Necromancer's relationship with conditions is complex due to the mechanics of the game, as a lot of factors can take place at any given time with them, but that's complexity, not depth. You don't have multiple ways to use Deathly swarm for example. You use it to transfer conditions as the blind is extremely minor. I don't recall my well of power or Deathly Swarm being particularly "complex" to cast. I do remember however, that majority of professions can only do two things with condies - apply them or cleanse them, with anything else being very far and between them. Meanwhile my necro can: * self-inflict to put himself into combat for "I'm outta enemies" life force generation * consume conditions for strongest anti-condi heal ingame * transfer them * convert them to boons * spread (and double them if he used condi AoE) with epidemic * pull them off allies to self for more boon conversion or transfers or just being helpful (how many condi cleanses have 1200 range?) * use them to reduce damage he takes (putrid defense, corrupter's fervor, cold shoulder) * use them to heal one self off their damage (parasitic contagion) None of this are uber complex, but they are a phletora of choices when dealing with condies that other professions don't get or only a single aspect of it. And that's just condi play. There's still the life force & life leech/healing management, setting up multiple layers of defenses based on your traitline choices and having to be aware your enemy's situation if you don't wanna burn the precious dodge (which we're very short on) on something minor or waste an opportunity for a good, game changing corrupt. It may not be what you want to see in a deep class, but as long as there are things like warriors, thieves and guardians running around i will not stand anyone saying "necro is not deep". There are far worse offenders there that don't get called out on it, so neither should the necro. > The correct way to use Shroud and by extension life force is to stay in shroud for as little time as possible. Not a complex decision as you don't have the DPS to really do much in shroud nor do you have the utility. Beyond that you're fairly predictable due to the lack of options. All reapers are going to have the same options and its heavily telegraphed. When you compare that to Scourge, scourge has so much they can do just with the shade skills that its far less predictable. You can even use those skills without the kitten. Do you summon a shade and create a choke point, spending valuable time? Do you just trigger an ability and gain some barrier or fear a foe off you? Is it worth it to create that choke point? And that's just a small example. Reaper and necromancer don't get anywhere near that level of depth. A single shade skill on scourge has so much depth to it that it'll be an amazing skill tester. How about i challenge that notion? Shroud has base 50% damage & condi damage reduction. So staying longer in it means you can tank more then your base health would allow. And what if you got yourself good health regen when shrouded? Things like Bligher's Boon, unholy sanctuary, blood magic or trated signet of vampirism? Then too you would prefer longer stays in shroud to maximize base healthpool healing. If you build well, you will still manage to get tons of lifeforce in that 10s downtime after you exit shroud, but will still need every ounce of HP for said duration. > > * Multiple good yet none dominating traitlines, letting you build various ways for same goal. Except underperforming death magic maybe. > > Oh, this is definitely not true. Plague sending is the dominant trait in its tier in curses for PvP, Vital persistence is actually straight up required, Lingering curse is required for PvE, Dhuumfire is the dominant trait for Condi reaper for soul reaping as well as going to be for Condi scourge. Soul Marks is the dominant trait for PvP as well. There are numerous examples like these. Although I don't feel this is always a bad thing, but necromancer is riddled with dominant traits and trait lines. Soul reaping is the absolute most dominant trait line, no question. > Way to take words outta context here. I said **traitlines** not **every trait in them**. Nothing strange about a particular condi trait being chosen for a condi build. But the versatility and choice are still there. l use curses on my spvp power build and it works just fine. You can go Death Magic for both condi and power builds, same for reaper or spite. Blood Magic is always a sweet pick, but never an absolute must, there are other sources of self healing (Blighter's Boon + spite might generation, Unholy Sanctuary, Parasitic Contagion). I stay by what i said - necro **traitlines** offer a lot of choice and flexiblity and as long as things like Warrior and his "Defense or die!" line exist you don't get to tell me it's not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kKagari.6804 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 We've had some really good improvements for for specialisations over the last two patches for our classes that made core classes viable again, so I definitely don't think Arenanet are of the attitude that they see core builds as unworthy of improvement. Also, it's never the case to argue that more skills will lead to the same balancing issues that GW1 had. For two reasons: we know there'll be more elite specs, and secondly, the permutations are only between one spec line and core specs, unlike how the permutations in GW1 increased exponentially. Also, adding skills to existing shroud has actually the least interactions with existing mechanics since you won't be carrying the new death shroud skills to interact with the reaper mechanics, for example. They'll be stand alone. I think it makes sense for shroud to be a fully fleshed out 10 skill package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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