Adding the reload system to Engineer's pistol

[Eastcorn.5901]

This recent Living Story has a bundle in one of the earlier missions that uses a different kind of ammo system. Instead of the mantra system (charge it first, then you get a certain amount of ammo), or the utility skill ammo system (several charges, each individual charge replenishes after use), the ammo system of this bundle functions like a magazine. It starts with 3 charges when you equip it, and when you expend the charges the skill swaps to a second channeled skill which reloads the charges.

 

I think it would be cool to add this to Engineer's pistol 2-5 and reduce the cooldown on them significantly. Maybe have it so that reloading one pistol skill reloads all of them. Or split the reload function between main and off hand pistols, so that you can use one while reloading the other (if that's possible, so far we have not had any class with the ability to use two channeled skills at once).

 

Poison Dart Volley and Static Shot could go up to three shots, while Blowtorch and Glue Shot should probably stick to one or two shots to prevent it from being too OP. Pistol 1 should obviously stay ammo-less.

 

Then buff the pistols (if necessary after the change) so we can use them as solid condi-DPS options without always needing 3 kits.

 

It's mostly a flavour update. We can easily live without it, but it would be really awesome as a way to make Engineer feel like a proficient gunner.

[Vagrant.7206]

I'm not sure that would make anything better for engineer.

 

Would work well for P/P thief having to reload after "unloading" though.

[archmagus.7249]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> I'm not sure that would make anything better for engineer.

>

> Would work well for P/P thief having to reload after "unloading" though.

 

They already have that. It's their class mechanic called initiative.

[Eastcorn.5901]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> I'm not sure that would make anything better for engineer.

>

> Would work well for P/P thief having to reload after "unloading" though.

 

By itself, it's nothing more than a flavour update.

But theoretically it would allow you to use pistol skills far more often depending on their implementation of the reload. Instead of a 12 second cooldown on Blowtorch you would have one or two blowtorches and a ~2.5 second reload time.

 

It seems very strong at first glance, cause it is. But the line of reasoning for it is that if you make it so that pistol skills can fire off more frequently, then the opportunity cost of not having kits is reduced significantly. I don't think you'll ever remove kits entirely (nor should you), but it could reduce the need for, say, Grenade kit in the optimal condi rotation. Bomb kit and Flamethrower kit might not be optional, considering they have very powerful condition skills on them.

 

In PvP it's pretty easy to see the benefit of having pistols reload instead of on cooldowns. The upside is that you aren't fiddling around with weak auto-attacks after you blow your burst. The downside is that your reload can get interrupted.

[TotallyNotJazzie.1493]

Agreed 100%. I haven’t used pistols on NGneer for 2 and a half years or so.

 

Desperately need reworks.

[Ardid.7203]

Add this and more variety to the skill animations, and I'll be using pistols again.

[Ivantreil.3092]

> @"Ardid.7203" said:

> Add this and more variety to the skill animations, and I'll be using pistols again.

 

Well, Engi isn't famous for have a beautiful variety of animation like Thief would, it seems like a redundant proposal considering that the lack of animation issue is pretty much everywhere in our skills:

 

Rifle 1, 3 and 5, Elixir gun 1 and 2, and Flamethrower 2 share the same animation.

 

Bombs share all the same animation.

 

Grenades share all the same animation.

 

Mortar shots share all the same animation.

 

Elixir B, C, R, H and X share the same animation.

 

All the Toss Elixir skills share the same animation.

 

Flamethrower 1 and Elixir gun 3 share the same animation.

 

and so on i could go if i investigated more.

 

 

[Ardid.7203]

I'm not asking for specific detail animations changes.

Rifle 5, as an example, only repeats a bit of the auto animation, the rest is a jump fully animated for the skill.

Elixir Gun 3 and Flamethrower 1, while moving the same, have a totally different color spray that is also differently animated and behaves differently. They are also accesable through different routes, so is not like they are one next to the other... like bombs and grenades. I prefer to not even mention them: They are the most boring part of playing Engie (That's why I can't stand to use them...)

 

I don't need every pistol skill to be animated to the tiniest muscle... but they should make them more recognizable.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

If such system were to happen, engi woulld get destroyed in pvp. Imagine you taking 2s rooted to reload. Obviously enemy will drop all the cc and then dps they can.

It could work if both systems were to be merged - slow, auto recharge of your "magazine" with option to use manual reload when there's a window of opportunity.

[Eastcorn.5901]

You're not rooted in the bundle's reload animation, you can move around.

 

You can add gun-related minor traits in firearms traits. Including allowing dodging to instantly reload pistols (synergizing with tools). Adding the reload system would require at least one trait tailored to the system.

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> If such system were to happen, engi woulld get destroyed in pvp. Imagine you taking 2s rooted to reload. Obviously enemy will drop all the cc and then dps they can.

> It could work if both systems were to be merged - slow, auto recharge of your "magazine" with option to use manual reload when there's a window of opportunity.

 

But that misses the point. Reloading in pretty much every game that has it is based around basic opportunity cost (though some push it harder then others). In sustained combat, reloads are considered a liability, because breaking DPS is a liability. However... in PvP type scenarios, a reload window creates better balance opportunities for strong bursts of activity, followed by windows of vulnerability. But since most action oriented games allow for temporary reprieves, by using the environment for cover, you can mitigate the risk of a reload action, and adds a huge amount of value to terrain features.

 

The PvP in this game is handled as if it were an open field; thus most of the defense/strategy is weighted on the character builds and abilities. This is why Stealth is so strong in PvP, as its the only mechanic that creates proper cover in an otherwise open field. Compare that to Walls which won't hamper enemy movement for more then a few seconds at best, and basically do nothing against skills that aren't projectiles. But notice how a LOT of skills are vulnerable to line of sight issues.

 

Combing both active reload and auto regen messes with how that opportunity cost works.. Plus this game's ammo system could actively interfere with the reload mechanic if the skill also has a significant CD between shots (see pre-ammo mantras). What you'd want is something like Mantra of Pain, which CAN flow well due to having effectively no ICDs to prevent cycling through it. Even having a shared ammo pool for each Pistol hand on Engineer allows for a LOT of potential if they're willing to properly integrate traits as if it were a class mechanic. Having only 1 weapon set, Engineers could actually make it a proper class mechanic using weapon swap at a manual reload key.

[Xae.7204]

If we're talking new animations I would much rather have Engineers get new rifle animations instead of low-fi garbage recycled from a kit that doesn't even match the weapon.

[Eastcorn.5901]

We're talking about applying a new mechanic released this LS episode into the Engineer's weapons, not new animations lol.

But I don't see a reason not to include the reload system into rifle if we're talking about adding them to pistols as well. Rifle is also a pretty bad weapon by itself.

[derd.6413]

this has been suggested for rifles and pistols on all classes. i don't really care if they did or not but there are things more desperate for a rework to be good.

also no matter what you change about engi pistol it won't change the fact engi has 3 kits with "good" condi on it which you're gonna take if you want to play condi engi.

[Skribionkie.2859]

That's an interesting idea!

There's a class that can "cast" 2 skills at once, the mirage; i mean, being able to dodge while doing other stuff isn't really 2 skills at once but it's the closest we have so far. It could work the same way, kind of? (not that i want to dodge to be able to reload of course)

[Eastcorn.5901]

It's not the same, as "Channeling" is a very specific gameplay mechanic. Mirage's dodge mechanic is a separate mechanic from channeling. As of now there is no instance of two channeled abilities being used together.

 

The way reloading works in the bundle ability you get in Forewarned and Forearmed is a directly channeled ability. So if we needed to allow each pistol to reload individually, then we need to be able to reload both at once. This would be the first instance of a class being able to channel two skills at once. Alternatively, the pistol set could share the same pool, though I'm pretty sure all this would lead to is spamming Blowtorch and reloading.