Sol.4310 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > @"Sol.4310" said: > > Not sure why you keep making such long posts, when you even say yourself its to strong. It's like you want it to stay strong so you can keep living in your bubble. Also no one wants to make a build just to beat one class but get countered by everyone else, when I play burst I know what counters me and one class that makes my life living nightmare is condition mesmer. Power I hate at times but atleast I can kill them when I play power, if I went condition ranger I'd get murdered by a mesmer... Sorry but not all our builds have unreal amounts of condition remove, to get that level condition remove we basiclly kill our ability to kill anything. > > The only thing I'm arguing for is Power to stay intact as it is, but I will call out hyperbolic claims and I should be doing so. > It's better to challenging your uncogent arguments, because it does a disservice to the game in the long run if we want real balance. > > I don't know what you mean by bubble? I don't play Condi mirage **at all** I have no agenda to keep it as strong as it is, and would like to see it brought in line. > I thought I made that clear. > > If you mean bubble as in like a conformation bias, then sorry; I know how to counter condi mirage, and have countered them on many builds with minimal cleanses (cleans max 3-5 sometimes on a shared cooldown depending on the class and spec). You make it sound like everyone has to spec into hard clears it to beat them, when that is just not the case. Maybe you run a custom build that is squishier than the meta, maybe you specifically do need to use cleanses to counter it, maybe it is impossible for you to be able to avoid it, whatever the case may be the game shouldn't balance around people's inability to do something, when that something can be learnt. > > Either way, I'd rather call people out on it so the right things get nerfed in the right way, and that is so it is still strong and viable, but does not over perform in upper middle to high tier which is where I want ALL classes to be with an option for both power or condi. Yeah but I was talking about the condition mirage build, again with wall of text. If you agreed than we wouldn't be in this position. Also there is no higher tier, the game based on solo que now and no matter how good you think you are its nothing like it was when there used to many good teams playing, them days are long gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Sol.4310" said: > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > @"Sol.4310" said: > > > Not sure why you keep making such long posts, when you even say yourself its to strong. It's like you want it to stay strong so you can keep living in your bubble. Also no one wants to make a build just to beat one class but get countered by everyone else, when I play burst I know what counters me and one class that makes my life living nightmare is condition mesmer. Power I hate at times but atleast I can kill them when I play power, if I went condition ranger I'd get murdered by a mesmer... Sorry but not all our builds have unreal amounts of condition remove, to get that level condition remove we basiclly kill our ability to kill anything. > > > > The only thing I'm arguing for is Power to stay intact as it is, but I will call out hyperbolic claims and I should be doing so. > > It's better to challenging your uncogent arguments, because it does a disservice to the game in the long run if we want real balance. > > > > I don't know what you mean by bubble? I don't play Condi mirage **at all** I have no agenda to keep it as strong as it is, and would like to see it brought in line. > > I thought I made that clear. > > > > If you mean bubble as in like a conformation bias, then sorry; I know how to counter condi mirage, and have countered them on many builds with minimal cleanses (cleans max 3-5 sometimes on a shared cooldown depending on the class and spec). You make it sound like everyone has to spec into hard clears it to beat them, when that is just not the case. Maybe you run a custom build that is squishier than the meta, maybe you specifically do need to use cleanses to counter it, maybe it is impossible for you to be able to avoid it, whatever the case may be the game shouldn't balance around people's inability to do something, when that something can be learnt. > > > > Either way, I'd rather call people out on it so the right things get nerfed in the right way, and that is so it is still strong and viable, but does not over perform in upper middle to high tier which is where I want ALL classes to be with an option for both power or condi. > > Yeah but I was talking about the condition mirage build, again with wall of text. If you agreed than we wouldn't be in this position. Also there is no higher tier, the game based on solo que now and no matter how good you think you are its nothing like it was when there used to many good teams playing, them days are long gone. There is a higher tier, it's called Monthly Automated Tournament, what you see the winners and top teams playing reflects on the meta and the strength of team compositions. As far as I can remember of the semi finals teams only 1 was running double mesmer and it wasn't even the team that had 2 of the best mesmer players in the entire game, that team decided to have a scourge despite that scourge player having played mesmer for 4 or 5 years and being an ex ESL player at mesmer. Yes mirage has some aspects that need toning down but it needs to be the right things like elusive mind no longer breaking stun and a look at axe and ambush skills. Edit: I'm talking about EU btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Sol.4310" said: > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > @"Sol.4310" said: > > > > Not sure why you keep making such long posts, when you even say yourself its to strong. It's like you want it to stay strong so you can keep living in your bubble. Also no one wants to make a build just to beat one class but get countered by everyone else, when I play burst I know what counters me and one class that makes my life living nightmare is condition mesmer. Power I hate at times but atleast I can kill them when I play power, if I went condition ranger I'd get murdered by a mesmer... Sorry but not all our builds have unreal amounts of condition remove, to get that level condition remove we basiclly kill our ability to kill anything. > > > > > > The only thing I'm arguing for is Power to stay intact as it is, but I will call out hyperbolic claims and I should be doing so. > > > It's better to challenging your uncogent arguments, because it does a disservice to the game in the long run if we want real balance. > > > > > > I don't know what you mean by bubble? I don't play Condi mirage **at all** I have no agenda to keep it as strong as it is, and would like to see it brought in line. > > > I thought I made that clear. > > > > > > If you mean bubble as in like a conformation bias, then sorry; I know how to counter condi mirage, and have countered them on many builds with minimal cleanses (cleans max 3-5 sometimes on a shared cooldown depending on the class and spec). You make it sound like everyone has to spec into hard clears it to beat them, when that is just not the case. Maybe you run a custom build that is squishier than the meta, maybe you specifically do need to use cleanses to counter it, maybe it is impossible for you to be able to avoid it, whatever the case may be the game shouldn't balance around people's inability to do something, when that something can be learnt. > > > > > > Either way, I'd rather call people out on it so the right things get nerfed in the right way, and that is so it is still strong and viable, but does not over perform in upper middle to high tier which is where I want ALL classes to be with an option for both power or condi. > > > > Yeah but I was talking about the condition mirage build, again with wall of text. If you agreed than we wouldn't be in this position. Also there is no higher tier, the game based on solo que now and no matter how good you think you are its nothing like it was when there used to many good teams playing, them days are long gone. > > There is a higher tier, it's called Monthly Automated Tournament, what you see the winners and top teams playing reflects on the meta and the strength of team compositions. As far as I can remember of the semi finals teams only 1 was running double mesmer and it wasn't even the team that had 2 of the best mesmer players in the entire game, that team decided to have a scourge despite that scourge player having played mesmer for 4 or 5 years and being an ex ESL player at mesmer. > > Yes mirage has some aspects that need toning down but it needs to be the right things like elusive mind no longer breaking stun and a look at axe and ambush skills. > > Edit: I'm talking about EU btw. No ambush skill i know is op, they need to be good when you need to use a dodge offensively for it. The problem are builds making enough dmg without using ambushes pure offensive like the op ineptitude/blinding dissipation combination or the superiority complex trait, so the mirage can chain the more dodges it has only for surviving. An icd on Ineptitude (and i mean like 5 or even 10 secs) and a little nerf to superiority complex (because both is in general op not only with mirage or chrono) and changing the last bonus of adventure rune is the way to go and not nerf ambushes. Also higher axe cds in particular for axe 3 and a nerf to torch burning stacks. Turn staff 3 into only one phantasm already. I agree that the amount of devensive skills a condi mirage has gives too little windows for attacking, even though with adventure rune and double energy sigils mirage has less dodges than a sword weaver, a core warrior or a daredevil or s/d thief without even using all runes/sigils for it. As to that condi mirage is not the only spec with that problem. For warrior and bunker weaver (and staff mirage because mirage gets quite tanky with staff ) i even see more of a problem because both specs can also facetank a lot, means they can dodge so randomly inbetween their facetanking that you can't rly call this dodging active gameplay anymore. I don't care for the amount of dodges and high mobility on squishy thief and mesmer specs which cannot facetank anything and clearly need other mechanics like ports and stealth and dodges. I even prefer these active gamplay elements over the forgiving and noobfriendly facetank specs. In particular because these facetank specs often still have more overall dmg than a high risk build. That anet has no clue how to balance the sustain - dmg relation is nothing new, all the more or less brainless bruiser builds base on this imbalance. I clearly hate condi and hybrid mirages but seeing it objectively is condimirage still not the most braindead spec and also not the best noobcarryspec. A bad condimirage is an easier kill than a bad core guard or warrior or bunker weaver and it also needs more brain for rotations. For average and above player mirage is the most rewarding but not for noobs. That is also the reason why mesmers get way more hate than other broken stuff. It carries noobs less effective than it kills them. The hate a mesmer gets compared to other lame stuff is so hard out of proportion that it triggers me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Sol.4310" said: > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > @"Sol.4310" said: > > > > > Not sure why you keep making such long posts, when you even say yourself its to strong. It's like you want it to stay strong so you can keep living in your bubble. Also no one wants to make a build just to beat one class but get countered by everyone else, when I play burst I know what counters me and one class that makes my life living nightmare is condition mesmer. Power I hate at times but atleast I can kill them when I play power, if I went condition ranger I'd get murdered by a mesmer... Sorry but not all our builds have unreal amounts of condition remove, to get that level condition remove we basiclly kill our ability to kill anything. > > > > > > > > The only thing I'm arguing for is Power to stay intact as it is, but I will call out hyperbolic claims and I should be doing so. > > > > It's better to challenging your uncogent arguments, because it does a disservice to the game in the long run if we want real balance. > > > > > > > > I don't know what you mean by bubble? I don't play Condi mirage **at all** I have no agenda to keep it as strong as it is, and would like to see it brought in line. > > > > I thought I made that clear. > > > > > > > > If you mean bubble as in like a conformation bias, then sorry; I know how to counter condi mirage, and have countered them on many builds with minimal cleanses (cleans max 3-5 sometimes on a shared cooldown depending on the class and spec). You make it sound like everyone has to spec into hard clears it to beat them, when that is just not the case. Maybe you run a custom build that is squishier than the meta, maybe you specifically do need to use cleanses to counter it, maybe it is impossible for you to be able to avoid it, whatever the case may be the game shouldn't balance around people's inability to do something, when that something can be learnt. > > > > > > > > Either way, I'd rather call people out on it so the right things get nerfed in the right way, and that is so it is still strong and viable, but does not over perform in upper middle to high tier which is where I want ALL classes to be with an option for both power or condi. > > > > > > Yeah but I was talking about the condition mirage build, again with wall of text. If you agreed than we wouldn't be in this position. Also there is no higher tier, the game based on solo que now and no matter how good you think you are its nothing like it was when there used to many good teams playing, them days are long gone. > > > > There is a higher tier, it's called Monthly Automated Tournament, what you see the winners and top teams playing reflects on the meta and the strength of team compositions. As far as I can remember of the semi finals teams only 1 was running double mesmer and it wasn't even the team that had 2 of the best mesmer players in the entire game, that team decided to have a scourge despite that scourge player having played mesmer for 4 or 5 years and being an ex ESL player at mesmer. > > > > Yes mirage has some aspects that need toning down but it needs to be the right things like elusive mind no longer breaking stun and a look at axe and ambush skills. > > > > Edit: I'm talking about EU btw. > > No ambush skill i know is op, they need to be good when you need to use a dodge offensively for it. The problem are builds making enough dmg without using ambushes pure offensive like the op ineptitude/blinding dissipation combination or the superiority complex trait, so the mirage can chain the more dodges it has only for surviving. > An icd on Ineptitude (and i mean like 5 or even 10 secs) and a little nerf to superiority complex (because both is in general op not only with mirage or chrono) and changing the last bonus of adventure rune is the way to go and not nerf ambushes. Also higher axe cds in particular for axe 3 and a nerf to torch burning stacks. Turn staff 3 into only one phantasm already. > > I agree that the amount of devensive skills a condi mirage has gives too little windows for attacking, even though with adventure rune and double energy sigils mirage has less dodges than a sword weaver, a core warrior or a daredevil or s/d thief without even using all runes/sigils for it. As to that condi mirage is not the only spec with that problem. For warrior and bunker weaver (and staff mirage because mirage gets quite tanky with staff ) i even see more of a problem because both specs can also facetank a lot, means they can dodge so randomly inbetween their facetanking that you can't rly call this dodging active gameplay anymore. I don't care for the amount of dodges and high mobility on squishy thief and mesmer specs which cannot facetank anything and clearly need other mechanics like ports and stealth and dodges. I even prefer these active gamplay elements over the forgiving and noobfriendly facetank specs. In particular because these facetank specs often still have more overall dmg than a high risk build. That anet has no clue how to balance the sustain - dmg relation is nothing new, all the more or less brainless bruiser builds base on this imbalance. > > I clearly hate condi and hybrid mirages but seeing it objectively is condimirage still not the most braindead spec and also not the best noobcarryspec. A bad condimirage is an easier kill than a bad core guard or warrior or bunker weaver and it also needs more brain for rotations. For average and above player mirage is the most rewarding but not for noobs. That is also the reason why mesmers get way more hate than other broken stuff. It carries noobs less effective than it kills them. The hate a mesmer gets compared to other lame stuff is so hard out of proportion that it triggers me. ICD's are bad as they require you to keep track of internal cool downs not shown and we shouldn't want to play the UI. Ineptitude is strong vs people who spam skills and/or have long cast times yet the build is completely shut down by stability which contrary to popular belief is in plentiful supply if you want it. Look at powerblock, it does as much if not more damage per interrupt than ineptitude (about 400 damage per activation for 2 confusion, powerblock will do 600-2000 depending on crit etc) while increasing cool downs and applying weakness, yet it is nowhere near OP. Remember you can LoS to prevent most interrupts when you don't have stab. If however you still think it's an issue a shave of duration to 2s or cutting it to 1 stack would solve it but it's still a fairly poor trait outside of mirage. The torch is not an issue, it has a 3s wind up on the prestige, the phantasmal mage is very well telegraphed and has far more counter play (you can literally run through it's hitbox when it is casting) than most skills in the game while mesmer also has only 2 weapons that apply burning where staff has it on a random proc of auto. The ambush (mirage only) has some pretty decent burn from the staff ambush especially from clones however most people are not playing that and it has a fair wind up. What I think is the biggest offender for condition application is the axe when combined with the trait generates a lot of torment which makes moving away to avoid follow up confusion application and procs far harder to do than should be reasonable. Likewise I feel like mirage thrust is overtuned, it shouldn't create a clone and while I like the mobility I think it should require a target. Removing the daze would mean there's no power mirage build at all and that infinite horizon won't work with the build. A look at the trait prestige for becoming a simple cool down reduction The reason I say target the ambush and axe skills is that they are changes that can be focused entirely for toning down mirage without nerfing other builds that aren't very good at all. Also Elusive mind in ways invalidates your last sentence about mirage, it's carrying a lot of very very bad players higher than they should be because they simply cannot be punished for being bad once or twice. If you don't dodge CC you should be punished, I don't think you should pay a 7-10k price like some classes can spit out frequently but still you should be punished. Edit: Maybe a change for ineptitude could be removing the interrupts inflict blind aspect but keep blinds inflict confusion. This way confusion from it requires traiting into blinding dissipation and usually running a torch/pistol for magic bullet. Not sure I like that though as blind isn't really something a core mesmer has but it's something to consider. It tones down the number of blinds and confusion stacks and removes a lot of offence from the sword for a condition build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"Sol.4310" said: > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > @"Sol.4310" said: > > > > > > Not sure why you keep making such long posts, when you even say yourself its to strong. It's like you want it to stay strong so you can keep living in your bubble. Also no one wants to make a build just to beat one class but get countered by everyone else, when I play burst I know what counters me and one class that makes my life living nightmare is condition mesmer. Power I hate at times but atleast I can kill them when I play power, if I went condition ranger I'd get murdered by a mesmer... Sorry but not all our builds have unreal amounts of condition remove, to get that level condition remove we basiclly kill our ability to kill anything. > > > > > > > > > > The only thing I'm arguing for is Power to stay intact as it is, but I will call out hyperbolic claims and I should be doing so. > > > > > It's better to challenging your uncogent arguments, because it does a disservice to the game in the long run if we want real balance. > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what you mean by bubble? I don't play Condi mirage **at all** I have no agenda to keep it as strong as it is, and would like to see it brought in line. > > > > > I thought I made that clear. > > > > > > > > > > If you mean bubble as in like a conformation bias, then sorry; I know how to counter condi mirage, and have countered them on many builds with minimal cleanses (cleans max 3-5 sometimes on a shared cooldown depending on the class and spec). You make it sound like everyone has to spec into hard clears it to beat them, when that is just not the case. Maybe you run a custom build that is squishier than the meta, maybe you specifically do need to use cleanses to counter it, maybe it is impossible for you to be able to avoid it, whatever the case may be the game shouldn't balance around people's inability to do something, when that something can be learnt. > > > > > > > > > > Either way, I'd rather call people out on it so the right things get nerfed in the right way, and that is so it is still strong and viable, but does not over perform in upper middle to high tier which is where I want ALL classes to be with an option for both power or condi. > > > > > > > > Yeah but I was talking about the condition mirage build, again with wall of text. If you agreed than we wouldn't be in this position. Also there is no higher tier, the game based on solo que now and no matter how good you think you are its nothing like it was when there used to many good teams playing, them days are long gone. > > > > > > There is a higher tier, it's called Monthly Automated Tournament, what you see the winners and top teams playing reflects on the meta and the strength of team compositions. As far as I can remember of the semi finals teams only 1 was running double mesmer and it wasn't even the team that had 2 of the best mesmer players in the entire game, that team decided to have a scourge despite that scourge player having played mesmer for 4 or 5 years and being an ex ESL player at mesmer. > > > > > > Yes mirage has some aspects that need toning down but it needs to be the right things like elusive mind no longer breaking stun and a look at axe and ambush skills. > > > > > > Edit: I'm talking about EU btw. > > > > No ambush skill i know is op, they need to be good when you need to use a dodge offensively for it. The problem are builds making enough dmg without using ambushes pure offensive like the op ineptitude/blinding dissipation combination or the superiority complex trait, so the mirage can chain the more dodges it has only for surviving. > > An icd on Ineptitude (and i mean like 5 or even 10 secs) and a little nerf to superiority complex (because both is in general op not only with mirage or chrono) and changing the last bonus of adventure rune is the way to go and not nerf ambushes. Also higher axe cds in particular for axe 3 and a nerf to torch burning stacks. Turn staff 3 into only one phantasm already. > > > > I agree that the amount of devensive skills a condi mirage has gives too little windows for attacking, even though with adventure rune and double energy sigils mirage has less dodges than a sword weaver, a core warrior or a daredevil or s/d thief without even using all runes/sigils for it. As to that condi mirage is not the only spec with that problem. For warrior and bunker weaver (and staff mirage because mirage gets quite tanky with staff ) i even see more of a problem because both specs can also facetank a lot, means they can dodge so randomly inbetween their facetanking that you can't rly call this dodging active gameplay anymore. I don't care for the amount of dodges and high mobility on squishy thief and mesmer specs which cannot facetank anything and clearly need other mechanics like ports and stealth and dodges. I even prefer these active gamplay elements over the forgiving and noobfriendly facetank specs. In particular because these facetank specs often still have more overall dmg than a high risk build. That anet has no clue how to balance the sustain - dmg relation is nothing new, all the more or less brainless bruiser builds base on this imbalance. > > > > I clearly hate condi and hybrid mirages but seeing it objectively is condimirage still not the most braindead spec and also not the best noobcarryspec. A bad condimirage is an easier kill than a bad core guard or warrior or bunker weaver and it also needs more brain for rotations. For average and above player mirage is the most rewarding but not for noobs. That is also the reason why mesmers get way more hate than other broken stuff. It carries noobs less effective than it kills them. The hate a mesmer gets compared to other lame stuff is so hard out of proportion that it triggers me. > > ICD's are bad as they require you to keep track of internal cool downs not shown and we shouldn't want to play the UI. Ineptitude is strong vs people who spam skills and/or have long cast times yet the build is completely shut down by stability which contrary to popular belief is in plentiful supply if you want it. Look at powerblock, it does as much if not more damage per interrupt than ineptitude (about 400 damage per activation for 2 confusion, powerblock will do 600-2000 depending on crit etc) while increasing cool downs and applying weakness, yet it is nowhere near OP. Remember you can LoS to prevent most interrupts when you don't have stab. If however you still think it's an issue a shave of duration to 2s or cutting it to 1 stack would solve it but it's still a fairly poor trait outside of mirage. > > The torch is not an issue, it has a 3s wind up on the prestige, the phantasmal mage is very well telegraphed and has far more counter play (you can literally run through it's hitbox when it is casting) than most skills in the game while mesmer also has only 2 weapons that apply burning where staff has it on a random proc of auto. The ambush (mirage only) has some pretty decent burn from the staff ambush especially from clones however most people are not playing that and it has a fair wind up. > > What I think is the biggest offender for condition application is the axe when combined with the trait generates a lot of torment which makes moving away to avoid follow up confusion application and procs far harder to do than should be reasonable. Likewise I feel like mirage thrust is overtuned, it shouldn't create a clone and while I like the mobility I think it should require a target. Removing the daze would mean there's no power mirage build at all and that infinite horizon won't work with the build. A look at the trait prestige for becoming a simple cool down reduction > > The reason I say target the ambush and axe skills is that they are changes that can be focused entirely for toning down mirage without nerfing other builds that aren't very good at all. > > Also Elusive mind in ways invalidates your last sentence about mirage, it's carrying a lot of very very bad players higher than they should be because they simply cannot be punished for being bad once or twice. If you don't dodge CC you should be punished, I don't think you should pay a 7-10k price like some classes can spit out frequently but still you should be punished. > > Edit: Maybe a change for ineptitude could be removing the interrupts inflict blind aspect but keep blinds inflict confusion. This way confusion from it requires traiting into blinding dissipation and usually running a torch/pistol for magic bullet. Not sure I like that though as blind isn't really something a core mesmer has but it's something to consider. It tones down the number of blinds and confusion stacks and removes a lot of offence from the sword for a condition build. How does stability help vs the blind application that then applies confusion? That is the bigger issue than the interrupt. As you mentioned the interrupt part is counterable and interrupting something needs active gameplay and it is a good mechanic to reward interrupting something. Also the biggest part of Powerblock is not working on autoattacks (higher cd), so powerblock rewards interrupting keyskills like heal way more than dazespam to random interrupt autoattacks. Ineptitude doesn't have such a mechanic. Means there are 2 reasons at least why Ineptitude is op and Powerblock is not. The double function of Ineptitude needs an icd to prevent spamming, also i get what you say about icds. But seriously it can't be too hard to have 5 secs in mind, you even can see the cd on the shatter you used to blind. I don't think mirage thrust is op at all. They could remove the clone yes, but i don't even think that is needed. It would nerf power mirtage too what is not in any need of a nerf (if anything than nerf superiority complex before everything else, ofc i forgot Elusive Mind, the stunbreak needs to go, i said that often already). Mirage thrust is a leap and i don't remember a single leap in this game need a target, why should mesmer be the only class get a targetneed? The mirage has to use dodges for the leap, means it has accurate costs and the range is in the normal margin for leaps. There is no problem with a mesmer spec having this amount of mobility as long as there is no facetank ability added. The problem with condi and hybrid mirage is that they have everything in addition to the mobility, they have almost no bad matchup as a side node dueler, they have high sustain (because most builds don't need to use dodges pure offensively for high dmg) and easy applied burst and even sustained dmg. Only in that combination the mobility is a problem. To not overnerf mirages mobility (what clearly is a main feature of the spec) for all builds not op you cannot nerf that. You need to nerf the op stuff on condi and hybrid mirage. Otherwise you will get an unplayable up power mesmer spec again. Sindrener complains about power mesmers in his team before he even knows if they are good or not for some reasons. Its not viable at all already and hard to make it work even in solo q (high rank, EU) when you start to meet decent player. The mirage spec itself is not op, what makes mirage op are core mesmer traits preventing the mirage from the need to use dodges pure offensive here and there. Traits that are too strong itself, regardless of the mesmer using chrono core or mirgae (and regardless if the whole build gets op or not from using them). Edit: The way mesmer applies the torch burn is not by let the phantasm hit. Its going into stealth and precasting the phantasm (what applies burn already) and then blink or jaunt into range and proc prestige and the phantasm cast burn and that out of stealth sometimes even from range. When you watch misha playing you can see how well that in general obviously stealthing- prestige proc can be covered even when happening right in front of your face. Still i agree most condimesmer are bad or average so you can just count 1... 2.. and dodge when you see them torchstealthing (what most ppl don't do, they get hit by most obvious stealth bursts and then start crying). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"Sol.4310" said: > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > @"Sol.4310" said: > > > > > > > Not sure why you keep making such long posts, when you even say yourself its to strong. It's like you want it to stay strong so you can keep living in your bubble. Also no one wants to make a build just to beat one class but get countered by everyone else, when I play burst I know what counters me and one class that makes my life living nightmare is condition mesmer. Power I hate at times but atleast I can kill them when I play power, if I went condition ranger I'd get murdered by a mesmer... Sorry but not all our builds have unreal amounts of condition remove, to get that level condition remove we basiclly kill our ability to kill anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing I'm arguing for is Power to stay intact as it is, but I will call out hyperbolic claims and I should be doing so. > > > > > > It's better to challenging your uncogent arguments, because it does a disservice to the game in the long run if we want real balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what you mean by bubble? I don't play Condi mirage **at all** I have no agenda to keep it as strong as it is, and would like to see it brought in line. > > > > > > I thought I made that clear. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you mean bubble as in like a conformation bias, then sorry; I know how to counter condi mirage, and have countered them on many builds with minimal cleanses (cleans max 3-5 sometimes on a shared cooldown depending on the class and spec). You make it sound like everyone has to spec into hard clears it to beat them, when that is just not the case. Maybe you run a custom build that is squishier than the meta, maybe you specifically do need to use cleanses to counter it, maybe it is impossible for you to be able to avoid it, whatever the case may be the game shouldn't balance around people's inability to do something, when that something can be learnt. > > > > > > > > > > > > Either way, I'd rather call people out on it so the right things get nerfed in the right way, and that is so it is still strong and viable, but does not over perform in upper middle to high tier which is where I want ALL classes to be with an option for both power or condi. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah but I was talking about the condition mirage build, again with wall of text. If you agreed than we wouldn't be in this position. Also there is no higher tier, the game based on solo que now and no matter how good you think you are its nothing like it was when there used to many good teams playing, them days are long gone. > > > > > > > > There is a higher tier, it's called Monthly Automated Tournament, what you see the winners and top teams playing reflects on the meta and the strength of team compositions. As far as I can remember of the semi finals teams only 1 was running double mesmer and it wasn't even the team that had 2 of the best mesmer players in the entire game, that team decided to have a scourge despite that scourge player having played mesmer for 4 or 5 years and being an ex ESL player at mesmer. > > > > > > > > Yes mirage has some aspects that need toning down but it needs to be the right things like elusive mind no longer breaking stun and a look at axe and ambush skills. > > > > > > > > Edit: I'm talking about EU btw. > > > > > > No ambush skill i know is op, they need to be good when you need to use a dodge offensively for it. The problem are builds making enough dmg without using ambushes pure offensive like the op ineptitude/blinding dissipation combination or the superiority complex trait, so the mirage can chain the more dodges it has only for surviving. > > > An icd on Ineptitude (and i mean like 5 or even 10 secs) and a little nerf to superiority complex (because both is in general op not only with mirage or chrono) and changing the last bonus of adventure rune is the way to go and not nerf ambushes. Also higher axe cds in particular for axe 3 and a nerf to torch burning stacks. Turn staff 3 into only one phantasm already. > > > > > > I agree that the amount of devensive skills a condi mirage has gives too little windows for attacking, even though with adventure rune and double energy sigils mirage has less dodges than a sword weaver, a core warrior or a daredevil or s/d thief without even using all runes/sigils for it. As to that condi mirage is not the only spec with that problem. For warrior and bunker weaver (and staff mirage because mirage gets quite tanky with staff ) i even see more of a problem because both specs can also facetank a lot, means they can dodge so randomly inbetween their facetanking that you can't rly call this dodging active gameplay anymore. I don't care for the amount of dodges and high mobility on squishy thief and mesmer specs which cannot facetank anything and clearly need other mechanics like ports and stealth and dodges. I even prefer these active gamplay elements over the forgiving and noobfriendly facetank specs. In particular because these facetank specs often still have more overall dmg than a high risk build. That anet has no clue how to balance the sustain - dmg relation is nothing new, all the more or less brainless bruiser builds base on this imbalance. > > > > > > I clearly hate condi and hybrid mirages but seeing it objectively is condimirage still not the most braindead spec and also not the best noobcarryspec. A bad condimirage is an easier kill than a bad core guard or warrior or bunker weaver and it also needs more brain for rotations. For average and above player mirage is the most rewarding but not for noobs. That is also the reason why mesmers get way more hate than other broken stuff. It carries noobs less effective than it kills them. The hate a mesmer gets compared to other lame stuff is so hard out of proportion that it triggers me. > > > > ICD's are bad as they require you to keep track of internal cool downs not shown and we shouldn't want to play the UI. Ineptitude is strong vs people who spam skills and/or have long cast times yet the build is completely shut down by stability which contrary to popular belief is in plentiful supply if you want it. Look at powerblock, it does as much if not more damage per interrupt than ineptitude (about 400 damage per activation for 2 confusion, powerblock will do 600-2000 depending on crit etc) while increasing cool downs and applying weakness, yet it is nowhere near OP. Remember you can LoS to prevent most interrupts when you don't have stab. If however you still think it's an issue a shave of duration to 2s or cutting it to 1 stack would solve it but it's still a fairly poor trait outside of mirage. > > > > The torch is not an issue, it has a 3s wind up on the prestige, the phantasmal mage is very well telegraphed and has far more counter play (you can literally run through it's hitbox when it is casting) than most skills in the game while mesmer also has only 2 weapons that apply burning where staff has it on a random proc of auto. The ambush (mirage only) has some pretty decent burn from the staff ambush especially from clones however most people are not playing that and it has a fair wind up. > > > > What I think is the biggest offender for condition application is the axe when combined with the trait generates a lot of torment which makes moving away to avoid follow up confusion application and procs far harder to do than should be reasonable. Likewise I feel like mirage thrust is overtuned, it shouldn't create a clone and while I like the mobility I think it should require a target. Removing the daze would mean there's no power mirage build at all and that infinite horizon won't work with the build. A look at the trait prestige for becoming a simple cool down reduction > > > > The reason I say target the ambush and axe skills is that they are changes that can be focused entirely for toning down mirage without nerfing other builds that aren't very good at all. > > > > Also Elusive mind in ways invalidates your last sentence about mirage, it's carrying a lot of very very bad players higher than they should be because they simply cannot be punished for being bad once or twice. If you don't dodge CC you should be punished, I don't think you should pay a 7-10k price like some classes can spit out frequently but still you should be punished. > > > > Edit: Maybe a change for ineptitude could be removing the interrupts inflict blind aspect but keep blinds inflict confusion. This way confusion from it requires traiting into blinding dissipation and usually running a torch/pistol for magic bullet. Not sure I like that though as blind isn't really something a core mesmer has but it's something to consider. It tones down the number of blinds and confusion stacks and removes a lot of offence from the sword for a condition build. > > How does stability help vs the blind application that then applies confusion? That is the bigger issue than the interrupt. As you mentioned the interrupt part is counterable and interrupting something needs active gameplay and it is a good mechanic to reward interrupting something. Also the biggest part of Powerblock is not working on autoattacks (higher cd), so powerblock rewards interrupting keyskills like heal way more than dazespam to random interrupt autoattacks. Ineptitude doesn't have such a mechanic. Means there are 2 reasons at least why Ineptitude is op and Powerblock is not. The double function of Ineptitude needs an icd to prevent spamming, also i get what you say about icds. But seriously it can't be too hard to have 5 secs in mind, you even can see the cd on the shatter you used to blind. > > I don't think mirage thrust is op at all. They could remove the clone yes, but i don't even think that is needed. It would nerf power mirtage too what is not in any need of a nerf (if anything than nerf superiority complex before everything else, ofc i forgot Elusive Mind, the stunbreak needs to go, i said that often already). Mirage thrust is a leap and i don't remember a single leap in this game need a target, why should mesmer be the only class get a targetneed? The mirage has to use dodges for the leap, means it has accurate costs and the range is in the normal margin for leaps. There is no problem with a mesmer spec having this amount of mobility as long as there is no facetank ability added. The problem with condi and hybrid mirage is that they have everything in addition to the mobility, they have almost no bad matchup as a side node dueler, they have high sustain (because most builds don't need to use dodges pure offensively for high dmg) and easy applied burst and even sustained dmg. Only in that combination the mobility is a problem. To not overnerf mirages mobility (what clearly is a main feature of the spec) for all builds not op you cannot nerf that. You need to nerf the op stuff on condi and hybrid mirage. Otherwise you will get an unplayable up power mesmer spec again. Sindrener complains about power mesmers in his team before he even knows if they are good or not for some reasons. Its not viable at all already and hard to make it work even in solo q (high rank, EU) when you start to meet decent player. **The mirage spec itself is not op, what makes mirage op are core mesmer traits preventing the mirage from the need to use dodges pure offensive here and there. Traits that are too strong itself, regardless of the mesmer using chrono core or mirgae (and regardless if the whole build gets op or not from using them).** > > Edit: The way mesmer applies the torch burn is not by let the phantasm hit. Its going into stealth and precasting the phantasm (what applies burn already) and then blink or jaunt into range and proc prestige and the phantasm cast burn and that out of stealth sometimes even from range. When you watch misha playing you can see how well that in general obviously stealthing- prestige proc can be covered even when happening right in front of your face. Still i agree most condimesmer are bad or average so you can just count 1... 2.. and dodge when you see them torchstealthing (what most ppl don't do, they get hit by most obvious stealth bursts and then start crying). Blinding dissipation isn't that strong of a trait but synergises well with ineptitude however on a core build that isn't a problem, on chrono this is again not a problem but stronger than core but on mirage it becomes very strong. What makes ineptitude too strong on mirage is mirage thrust where the interrupt allows for more confusion and blind applied. Removing the daze from mirage thrust would make it pointless so removing the interrupts inflict blind while keeping the blinds inflict confusion acts to tone down mirage without affecting core and chrono as much. This is why stability helps vs condition mesmer, no interrupts, no blind, no confusion. The reason I mention mirage thrust is it gives mesmer far more mobility than it needs which was a major issue with thief and daredevil, I know it's not OP on glass mesmer but the ability to leap from a bad fight so much is something I don't think you should be able to do so easily. It's also a very overloaded skill, 600 range leap, daze, damage and generates a clone on connect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"Sol.4310" said: > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sol.4310" said: > > > > > > > > Not sure why you keep making such long posts, when you even say yourself its to strong. It's like you want it to stay strong so you can keep living in your bubble. Also no one wants to make a build just to beat one class but get countered by everyone else, when I play burst I know what counters me and one class that makes my life living nightmare is condition mesmer. Power I hate at times but atleast I can kill them when I play power, if I went condition ranger I'd get murdered by a mesmer... Sorry but not all our builds have unreal amounts of condition remove, to get that level condition remove we basiclly kill our ability to kill anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing I'm arguing for is Power to stay intact as it is, but I will call out hyperbolic claims and I should be doing so. > > > > > > > It's better to challenging your uncogent arguments, because it does a disservice to the game in the long run if we want real balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what you mean by bubble? I don't play Condi mirage **at all** I have no agenda to keep it as strong as it is, and would like to see it brought in line. > > > > > > > I thought I made that clear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you mean bubble as in like a conformation bias, then sorry; I know how to counter condi mirage, and have countered them on many builds with minimal cleanses (cleans max 3-5 sometimes on a shared cooldown depending on the class and spec). You make it sound like everyone has to spec into hard clears it to beat them, when that is just not the case. Maybe you run a custom build that is squishier than the meta, maybe you specifically do need to use cleanses to counter it, maybe it is impossible for you to be able to avoid it, whatever the case may be the game shouldn't balance around people's inability to do something, when that something can be learnt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Either way, I'd rather call people out on it so the right things get nerfed in the right way, and that is so it is still strong and viable, but does not over perform in upper middle to high tier which is where I want ALL classes to be with an option for both power or condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah but I was talking about the condition mirage build, again with wall of text. If you agreed than we wouldn't be in this position. Also there is no higher tier, the game based on solo que now and no matter how good you think you are its nothing like it was when there used to many good teams playing, them days are long gone. > > > > > > > > > > There is a higher tier, it's called Monthly Automated Tournament, what you see the winners and top teams playing reflects on the meta and the strength of team compositions. As far as I can remember of the semi finals teams only 1 was running double mesmer and it wasn't even the team that had 2 of the best mesmer players in the entire game, that team decided to have a scourge despite that scourge player having played mesmer for 4 or 5 years and being an ex ESL player at mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > Yes mirage has some aspects that need toning down but it needs to be the right things like elusive mind no longer breaking stun and a look at axe and ambush skills. > > > > > > > > > > Edit: I'm talking about EU btw. > > > > > > > > No ambush skill i know is op, they need to be good when you need to use a dodge offensively for it. The problem are builds making enough dmg without using ambushes pure offensive like the op ineptitude/blinding dissipation combination or the superiority complex trait, so the mirage can chain the more dodges it has only for surviving. > > > > An icd on Ineptitude (and i mean like 5 or even 10 secs) and a little nerf to superiority complex (because both is in general op not only with mirage or chrono) and changing the last bonus of adventure rune is the way to go and not nerf ambushes. Also higher axe cds in particular for axe 3 and a nerf to torch burning stacks. Turn staff 3 into only one phantasm already. > > > > > > > > I agree that the amount of devensive skills a condi mirage has gives too little windows for attacking, even though with adventure rune and double energy sigils mirage has less dodges than a sword weaver, a core warrior or a daredevil or s/d thief without even using all runes/sigils for it. As to that condi mirage is not the only spec with that problem. For warrior and bunker weaver (and staff mirage because mirage gets quite tanky with staff ) i even see more of a problem because both specs can also facetank a lot, means they can dodge so randomly inbetween their facetanking that you can't rly call this dodging active gameplay anymore. I don't care for the amount of dodges and high mobility on squishy thief and mesmer specs which cannot facetank anything and clearly need other mechanics like ports and stealth and dodges. I even prefer these active gamplay elements over the forgiving and noobfriendly facetank specs. In particular because these facetank specs often still have more overall dmg than a high risk build. That anet has no clue how to balance the sustain - dmg relation is nothing new, all the more or less brainless bruiser builds base on this imbalance. > > > > > > > > I clearly hate condi and hybrid mirages but seeing it objectively is condimirage still not the most braindead spec and also not the best noobcarryspec. A bad condimirage is an easier kill than a bad core guard or warrior or bunker weaver and it also needs more brain for rotations. For average and above player mirage is the most rewarding but not for noobs. That is also the reason why mesmers get way more hate than other broken stuff. It carries noobs less effective than it kills them. The hate a mesmer gets compared to other lame stuff is so hard out of proportion that it triggers me. > > > > > > ICD's are bad as they require you to keep track of internal cool downs not shown and we shouldn't want to play the UI. Ineptitude is strong vs people who spam skills and/or have long cast times yet the build is completely shut down by stability which contrary to popular belief is in plentiful supply if you want it. Look at powerblock, it does as much if not more damage per interrupt than ineptitude (about 400 damage per activation for 2 confusion, powerblock will do 600-2000 depending on crit etc) while increasing cool downs and applying weakness, yet it is nowhere near OP. Remember you can LoS to prevent most interrupts when you don't have stab. If however you still think it's an issue a shave of duration to 2s or cutting it to 1 stack would solve it but it's still a fairly poor trait outside of mirage. > > > > > > The torch is not an issue, it has a 3s wind up on the prestige, the phantasmal mage is very well telegraphed and has far more counter play (you can literally run through it's hitbox when it is casting) than most skills in the game while mesmer also has only 2 weapons that apply burning where staff has it on a random proc of auto. The ambush (mirage only) has some pretty decent burn from the staff ambush especially from clones however most people are not playing that and it has a fair wind up. > > > > > > What I think is the biggest offender for condition application is the axe when combined with the trait generates a lot of torment which makes moving away to avoid follow up confusion application and procs far harder to do than should be reasonable. Likewise I feel like mirage thrust is overtuned, it shouldn't create a clone and while I like the mobility I think it should require a target. Removing the daze would mean there's no power mirage build at all and that infinite horizon won't work with the build. A look at the trait prestige for becoming a simple cool down reduction > > > > > > The reason I say target the ambush and axe skills is that they are changes that can be focused entirely for toning down mirage without nerfing other builds that aren't very good at all. > > > > > > Also Elusive mind in ways invalidates your last sentence about mirage, it's carrying a lot of very very bad players higher than they should be because they simply cannot be punished for being bad once or twice. If you don't dodge CC you should be punished, I don't think you should pay a 7-10k price like some classes can spit out frequently but still you should be punished. > > > > > > Edit: Maybe a change for ineptitude could be removing the interrupts inflict blind aspect but keep blinds inflict confusion. This way confusion from it requires traiting into blinding dissipation and usually running a torch/pistol for magic bullet. Not sure I like that though as blind isn't really something a core mesmer has but it's something to consider. It tones down the number of blinds and confusion stacks and removes a lot of offence from the sword for a condition build. > > > > How does stability help vs the blind application that then applies confusion? That is the bigger issue than the interrupt. As you mentioned the interrupt part is counterable and interrupting something needs active gameplay and it is a good mechanic to reward interrupting something. Also the biggest part of Powerblock is not working on autoattacks (higher cd), so powerblock rewards interrupting keyskills like heal way more than dazespam to random interrupt autoattacks. Ineptitude doesn't have such a mechanic. Means there are 2 reasons at least why Ineptitude is op and Powerblock is not. The double function of Ineptitude needs an icd to prevent spamming, also i get what you say about icds. But seriously it can't be too hard to have 5 secs in mind, you even can see the cd on the shatter you used to blind. > > > > I don't think mirage thrust is op at all. They could remove the clone yes, but i don't even think that is needed. It would nerf power mirtage too what is not in any need of a nerf (if anything than nerf superiority complex before everything else, ofc i forgot Elusive Mind, the stunbreak needs to go, i said that often already). Mirage thrust is a leap and i don't remember a single leap in this game need a target, why should mesmer be the only class get a targetneed? The mirage has to use dodges for the leap, means it has accurate costs and the range is in the normal margin for leaps. There is no problem with a mesmer spec having this amount of mobility as long as there is no facetank ability added. The problem with condi and hybrid mirage is that they have everything in addition to the mobility, they have almost no bad matchup as a side node dueler, they have high sustain (because most builds don't need to use dodges pure offensively for high dmg) and easy applied burst and even sustained dmg. Only in that combination the mobility is a problem. To not overnerf mirages mobility (what clearly is a main feature of the spec) for all builds not op you cannot nerf that. You need to nerf the op stuff on condi and hybrid mirage. Otherwise you will get an unplayable up power mesmer spec again. Sindrener complains about power mesmers in his team before he even knows if they are good or not for some reasons. Its not viable at all already and hard to make it work even in solo q (high rank, EU) when you start to meet decent player. **The mirage spec itself is not op, what makes mirage op are core mesmer traits preventing the mirage from the need to use dodges pure offensive here and there. Traits that are too strong itself, regardless of the mesmer using chrono core or mirgae (and regardless if the whole build gets op or not from using them).** > > > > Edit: The way mesmer applies the torch burn is not by let the phantasm hit. Its going into stealth and precasting the phantasm (what applies burn already) and then blink or jaunt into range and proc prestige and the phantasm cast burn and that out of stealth sometimes even from range. When you watch misha playing you can see how well that in general obviously stealthing- prestige proc can be covered even when happening right in front of your face. Still i agree most condimesmer are bad or average so you can just count 1... 2.. and dodge when you see them torchstealthing (what most ppl don't do, they get hit by most obvious stealth bursts and then start crying). > > Blinding dissipation isn't that strong of a trait but synergises well with ineptitude however on a core build that isn't a problem, on chrono this is again not a problem but stronger than core but on mirage it becomes very strong. What makes ineptitude too strong on mirage is mirage thrust where the interrupt allows for more confusion and blind applied. Removing the daze from mirage thrust would make it pointless so removing the interrupts inflict blind while keeping the blinds inflict confusion acts to tone down mirage without affecting core and chrono as much. This is why stability helps vs condition mesmer, no interrupts, no blind, no confusion. > > The reason I mention mirage thrust is it gives mesmer far more mobility than it needs which was a major issue with thief and daredevil, I know it's not OP on glass mesmer but the ability to leap from a bad fight so much is something I don't think you should be able to do so easily. It's also a very overloaded skill, 600 range leap, daze, damage and generates a clone on connect. No the blind-confusion synergy is the main problem and more spamable in particular more or less instant. Mirage thrust is a good visible leap far away from being instant even in melee, when you get hit and even interrupted by that it is your fault, also as said interrupting something at least needs active gameplay. Also as said being able to escape from fights is ok as long as the build doesn't have all other things like high sustain, high burst and sustain dmg in addition. You say yourself it is not a problem on a pure glass shatter mes, so why nerf it for these builds too? Nerf what makes condi and hybrid op, that is having high sustain+high burst+hish sustained dmg in addition to the mobility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > @"Sol.4310" said: > > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Sol.4310" said: > > > > > > > > > Not sure why you keep making such long posts, when you even say yourself its to strong. It's like you want it to stay strong so you can keep living in your bubble. Also no one wants to make a build just to beat one class but get countered by everyone else, when I play burst I know what counters me and one class that makes my life living nightmare is condition mesmer. Power I hate at times but atleast I can kill them when I play power, if I went condition ranger I'd get murdered by a mesmer... Sorry but not all our builds have unreal amounts of condition remove, to get that level condition remove we basiclly kill our ability to kill anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing I'm arguing for is Power to stay intact as it is, but I will call out hyperbolic claims and I should be doing so. > > > > > > > > It's better to challenging your uncogent arguments, because it does a disservice to the game in the long run if we want real balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what you mean by bubble? I don't play Condi mirage **at all** I have no agenda to keep it as strong as it is, and would like to see it brought in line. > > > > > > > > I thought I made that clear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you mean bubble as in like a conformation bias, then sorry; I know how to counter condi mirage, and have countered them on many builds with minimal cleanses (cleans max 3-5 sometimes on a shared cooldown depending on the class and spec). You make it sound like everyone has to spec into hard clears it to beat them, when that is just not the case. Maybe you run a custom build that is squishier than the meta, maybe you specifically do need to use cleanses to counter it, maybe it is impossible for you to be able to avoid it, whatever the case may be the game shouldn't balance around people's inability to do something, when that something can be learnt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Either way, I'd rather call people out on it so the right things get nerfed in the right way, and that is so it is still strong and viable, but does not over perform in upper middle to high tier which is where I want ALL classes to be with an option for both power or condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah but I was talking about the condition mirage build, again with wall of text. If you agreed than we wouldn't be in this position. Also there is no higher tier, the game based on solo que now and no matter how good you think you are its nothing like it was when there used to many good teams playing, them days are long gone. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a higher tier, it's called Monthly Automated Tournament, what you see the winners and top teams playing reflects on the meta and the strength of team compositions. As far as I can remember of the semi finals teams only 1 was running double mesmer and it wasn't even the team that had 2 of the best mesmer players in the entire game, that team decided to have a scourge despite that scourge player having played mesmer for 4 or 5 years and being an ex ESL player at mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes mirage has some aspects that need toning down but it needs to be the right things like elusive mind no longer breaking stun and a look at axe and ambush skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: I'm talking about EU btw. > > > > > > > > > > No ambush skill i know is op, they need to be good when you need to use a dodge offensively for it. The problem are builds making enough dmg without using ambushes pure offensive like the op ineptitude/blinding dissipation combination or the superiority complex trait, so the mirage can chain the more dodges it has only for surviving. > > > > > An icd on Ineptitude (and i mean like 5 or even 10 secs) and a little nerf to superiority complex (because both is in general op not only with mirage or chrono) and changing the last bonus of adventure rune is the way to go and not nerf ambushes. Also higher axe cds in particular for axe 3 and a nerf to torch burning stacks. Turn staff 3 into only one phantasm already. > > > > > > > > > > I agree that the amount of devensive skills a condi mirage has gives too little windows for attacking, even though with adventure rune and double energy sigils mirage has less dodges than a sword weaver, a core warrior or a daredevil or s/d thief without even using all runes/sigils for it. As to that condi mirage is not the only spec with that problem. For warrior and bunker weaver (and staff mirage because mirage gets quite tanky with staff ) i even see more of a problem because both specs can also facetank a lot, means they can dodge so randomly inbetween their facetanking that you can't rly call this dodging active gameplay anymore. I don't care for the amount of dodges and high mobility on squishy thief and mesmer specs which cannot facetank anything and clearly need other mechanics like ports and stealth and dodges. I even prefer these active gamplay elements over the forgiving and noobfriendly facetank specs. In particular because these facetank specs often still have more overall dmg than a high risk build. That anet has no clue how to balance the sustain - dmg relation is nothing new, all the more or less brainless bruiser builds base on this imbalance. > > > > > > > > > > I clearly hate condi and hybrid mirages but seeing it objectively is condimirage still not the most braindead spec and also not the best noobcarryspec. A bad condimirage is an easier kill than a bad core guard or warrior or bunker weaver and it also needs more brain for rotations. For average and above player mirage is the most rewarding but not for noobs. That is also the reason why mesmers get way more hate than other broken stuff. It carries noobs less effective than it kills them. The hate a mesmer gets compared to other lame stuff is so hard out of proportion that it triggers me. > > > > > > > > ICD's are bad as they require you to keep track of internal cool downs not shown and we shouldn't want to play the UI. Ineptitude is strong vs people who spam skills and/or have long cast times yet the build is completely shut down by stability which contrary to popular belief is in plentiful supply if you want it. Look at powerblock, it does as much if not more damage per interrupt than ineptitude (about 400 damage per activation for 2 confusion, powerblock will do 600-2000 depending on crit etc) while increasing cool downs and applying weakness, yet it is nowhere near OP. Remember you can LoS to prevent most interrupts when you don't have stab. If however you still think it's an issue a shave of duration to 2s or cutting it to 1 stack would solve it but it's still a fairly poor trait outside of mirage. > > > > > > > > The torch is not an issue, it has a 3s wind up on the prestige, the phantasmal mage is very well telegraphed and has far more counter play (you can literally run through it's hitbox when it is casting) than most skills in the game while mesmer also has only 2 weapons that apply burning where staff has it on a random proc of auto. The ambush (mirage only) has some pretty decent burn from the staff ambush especially from clones however most people are not playing that and it has a fair wind up. > > > > > > > > What I think is the biggest offender for condition application is the axe when combined with the trait generates a lot of torment which makes moving away to avoid follow up confusion application and procs far harder to do than should be reasonable. Likewise I feel like mirage thrust is overtuned, it shouldn't create a clone and while I like the mobility I think it should require a target. Removing the daze would mean there's no power mirage build at all and that infinite horizon won't work with the build. A look at the trait prestige for becoming a simple cool down reduction > > > > > > > > The reason I say target the ambush and axe skills is that they are changes that can be focused entirely for toning down mirage without nerfing other builds that aren't very good at all. > > > > > > > > Also Elusive mind in ways invalidates your last sentence about mirage, it's carrying a lot of very very bad players higher than they should be because they simply cannot be punished for being bad once or twice. If you don't dodge CC you should be punished, I don't think you should pay a 7-10k price like some classes can spit out frequently but still you should be punished. > > > > > > > > Edit: Maybe a change for ineptitude could be removing the interrupts inflict blind aspect but keep blinds inflict confusion. This way confusion from it requires traiting into blinding dissipation and usually running a torch/pistol for magic bullet. Not sure I like that though as blind isn't really something a core mesmer has but it's something to consider. It tones down the number of blinds and confusion stacks and removes a lot of offence from the sword for a condition build. > > > > > > How does stability help vs the blind application that then applies confusion? That is the bigger issue than the interrupt. As you mentioned the interrupt part is counterable and interrupting something needs active gameplay and it is a good mechanic to reward interrupting something. Also the biggest part of Powerblock is not working on autoattacks (higher cd), so powerblock rewards interrupting keyskills like heal way more than dazespam to random interrupt autoattacks. Ineptitude doesn't have such a mechanic. Means there are 2 reasons at least why Ineptitude is op and Powerblock is not. The double function of Ineptitude needs an icd to prevent spamming, also i get what you say about icds. But seriously it can't be too hard to have 5 secs in mind, you even can see the cd on the shatter you used to blind. > > > > > > I don't think mirage thrust is op at all. They could remove the clone yes, but i don't even think that is needed. It would nerf power mirtage too what is not in any need of a nerf (if anything than nerf superiority complex before everything else, ofc i forgot Elusive Mind, the stunbreak needs to go, i said that often already). Mirage thrust is a leap and i don't remember a single leap in this game need a target, why should mesmer be the only class get a targetneed? The mirage has to use dodges for the leap, means it has accurate costs and the range is in the normal margin for leaps. There is no problem with a mesmer spec having this amount of mobility as long as there is no facetank ability added. The problem with condi and hybrid mirage is that they have everything in addition to the mobility, they have almost no bad matchup as a side node dueler, they have high sustain (because most builds don't need to use dodges pure offensively for high dmg) and easy applied burst and even sustained dmg. Only in that combination the mobility is a problem. To not overnerf mirages mobility (what clearly is a main feature of the spec) for all builds not op you cannot nerf that. You need to nerf the op stuff on condi and hybrid mirage. Otherwise you will get an unplayable up power mesmer spec again. Sindrener complains about power mesmers in his team before he even knows if they are good or not for some reasons. Its not viable at all already and hard to make it work even in solo q (high rank, EU) when you start to meet decent player. **The mirage spec itself is not op, what makes mirage op are core mesmer traits preventing the mirage from the need to use dodges pure offensive here and there. Traits that are too strong itself, regardless of the mesmer using chrono core or mirgae (and regardless if the whole build gets op or not from using them).** > > > > > > Edit: The way mesmer applies the torch burn is not by let the phantasm hit. Its going into stealth and precasting the phantasm (what applies burn already) and then blink or jaunt into range and proc prestige and the phantasm cast burn and that out of stealth sometimes even from range. When you watch misha playing you can see how well that in general obviously stealthing- prestige proc can be covered even when happening right in front of your face. Still i agree most condimesmer are bad or average so you can just count 1... 2.. and dodge when you see them torchstealthing (what most ppl don't do, they get hit by most obvious stealth bursts and then start crying). > > > > Blinding dissipation isn't that strong of a trait but synergises well with ineptitude however on a core build that isn't a problem, on chrono this is again not a problem but stronger than core but on mirage it becomes very strong. What makes ineptitude too strong on mirage is mirage thrust where the interrupt allows for more confusion and blind applied. Removing the daze from mirage thrust would make it pointless so removing the interrupts inflict blind while keeping the blinds inflict confusion acts to tone down mirage without affecting core and chrono as much. This is why stability helps vs condition mesmer, no interrupts, no blind, no confusion. > > > > The reason I mention mirage thrust is it gives mesmer far more mobility than it needs which was a major issue with thief and daredevil, I know it's not OP on glass mesmer but the ability to leap from a bad fight so much is something I don't think you should be able to do so easily. It's also a very overloaded skill, 600 range leap, daze, damage and generates a clone on connect. > > No the blind-confusion synergy is the main problem and more spamable in particular more or less instant. Mirage thrust is a good visible leap far away from being instant even in melee, when you get hit and even interrupted by that it is your fault, also as said interrupting something at least needs active gameplay. Also as said being able to escape from fights is ok as long as the build doesn't have all other things like high sustain, high burst and sustain dmg in addition. You say yourself it is not a problem on a pure glass shatter mes, so why nerf it for these builds too? Nerf what makes condi and hybrid op, that is having high sustain+high burst+hish sustained dmg in addition to the mobility. I would rather not see nerfs that hit competing builds. If you nerf core and chrono condition application especially as much as you are saying (5-10s ICD on confusion on blind) then you essentially make any other version of condition mesmer but mirage completely unviable. To put it in perspective say the relative strength of core, chrono and mirage condi is 5/6/10 respectively out of 10 and then you lower each by 2 because you're nerfing common traits they end up at 3/4/8 where basically what is already a fairly bad build that might just about work close to your rating suddenly becomes unplayable. What you are advocating is massively reducing possible builds whether you realise it or not. The same doesn't always matter when we are talking builds that have different focus's because they will usually contain enough differences that you can make up for a shortfall somewhere else. Also yes mesmer mobility is a problem on power mesmer, just because they've nerfed power shatter so far into the ground it's unviable doesn't alter that mirage thrust gives mesmer too much escape when it already has plenty. I said the same thing about riptide which you can find on the forums, just because it's not too strong now in the current meta doesn't make it not a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamble.4580 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 That's a lie!! I had one game yesterday without any mesmers.. It was beautiful soo beautiful and a close game could of gone any way at end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeL.8260 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 Meanwhile Spellbreakers tank 3 people passively by just running around and Druids a support class with tones of self sustain can stealth every 4 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urdriel.8496 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"MikeL.8260" said: > Meanwhile Spellbreakers tank 3 people passively by just running around and Druids a support class with tones of self sustain can stealth every 4 seconds. yeah nerf druid one more time, is META, oh wait... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sol.4310" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Sol.4310" said: > > > > > > > > > > Not sure why you keep making such long posts, when you even say yourself its to strong. It's like you want it to stay strong so you can keep living in your bubble. Also no one wants to make a build just to beat one class but get countered by everyone else, when I play burst I know what counters me and one class that makes my life living nightmare is condition mesmer. Power I hate at times but atleast I can kill them when I play power, if I went condition ranger I'd get murdered by a mesmer... Sorry but not all our builds have unreal amounts of condition remove, to get that level condition remove we basiclly kill our ability to kill anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing I'm arguing for is Power to stay intact as it is, but I will call out hyperbolic claims and I should be doing so. > > > > > > > > > It's better to challenging your uncogent arguments, because it does a disservice to the game in the long run if we want real balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what you mean by bubble? I don't play Condi mirage **at all** I have no agenda to keep it as strong as it is, and would like to see it brought in line. > > > > > > > > > I thought I made that clear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you mean bubble as in like a conformation bias, then sorry; I know how to counter condi mirage, and have countered them on many builds with minimal cleanses (cleans max 3-5 sometimes on a shared cooldown depending on the class and spec). You make it sound like everyone has to spec into hard clears it to beat them, when that is just not the case. Maybe you run a custom build that is squishier than the meta, maybe you specifically do need to use cleanses to counter it, maybe it is impossible for you to be able to avoid it, whatever the case may be the game shouldn't balance around people's inability to do something, when that something can be learnt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Either way, I'd rather call people out on it so the right things get nerfed in the right way, and that is so it is still strong and viable, but does not over perform in upper middle to high tier which is where I want ALL classes to be with an option for both power or condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah but I was talking about the condition mirage build, again with wall of text. If you agreed than we wouldn't be in this position. Also there is no higher tier, the game based on solo que now and no matter how good you think you are its nothing like it was when there used to many good teams playing, them days are long gone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a higher tier, it's called Monthly Automated Tournament, what you see the winners and top teams playing reflects on the meta and the strength of team compositions. As far as I can remember of the semi finals teams only 1 was running double mesmer and it wasn't even the team that had 2 of the best mesmer players in the entire game, that team decided to have a scourge despite that scourge player having played mesmer for 4 or 5 years and being an ex ESL player at mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes mirage has some aspects that need toning down but it needs to be the right things like elusive mind no longer breaking stun and a look at axe and ambush skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: I'm talking about EU btw. > > > > > > > > > > > > No ambush skill i know is op, they need to be good when you need to use a dodge offensively for it. The problem are builds making enough dmg without using ambushes pure offensive like the op ineptitude/blinding dissipation combination or the superiority complex trait, so the mirage can chain the more dodges it has only for surviving. > > > > > > An icd on Ineptitude (and i mean like 5 or even 10 secs) and a little nerf to superiority complex (because both is in general op not only with mirage or chrono) and changing the last bonus of adventure rune is the way to go and not nerf ambushes. Also higher axe cds in particular for axe 3 and a nerf to torch burning stacks. Turn staff 3 into only one phantasm already. > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree that the amount of devensive skills a condi mirage has gives too little windows for attacking, even though with adventure rune and double energy sigils mirage has less dodges than a sword weaver, a core warrior or a daredevil or s/d thief without even using all runes/sigils for it. As to that condi mirage is not the only spec with that problem. For warrior and bunker weaver (and staff mirage because mirage gets quite tanky with staff ) i even see more of a problem because both specs can also facetank a lot, means they can dodge so randomly inbetween their facetanking that you can't rly call this dodging active gameplay anymore. I don't care for the amount of dodges and high mobility on squishy thief and mesmer specs which cannot facetank anything and clearly need other mechanics like ports and stealth and dodges. I even prefer these active gamplay elements over the forgiving and noobfriendly facetank specs. In particular because these facetank specs often still have more overall dmg than a high risk build. That anet has no clue how to balance the sustain - dmg relation is nothing new, all the more or less brainless bruiser builds base on this imbalance. > > > > > > > > > > > > I clearly hate condi and hybrid mirages but seeing it objectively is condimirage still not the most braindead spec and also not the best noobcarryspec. A bad condimirage is an easier kill than a bad core guard or warrior or bunker weaver and it also needs more brain for rotations. For average and above player mirage is the most rewarding but not for noobs. That is also the reason why mesmers get way more hate than other broken stuff. It carries noobs less effective than it kills them. The hate a mesmer gets compared to other lame stuff is so hard out of proportion that it triggers me. > > > > > > > > > > ICD's are bad as they require you to keep track of internal cool downs not shown and we shouldn't want to play the UI. Ineptitude is strong vs people who spam skills and/or have long cast times yet the build is completely shut down by stability which contrary to popular belief is in plentiful supply if you want it. Look at powerblock, it does as much if not more damage per interrupt than ineptitude (about 400 damage per activation for 2 confusion, powerblock will do 600-2000 depending on crit etc) while increasing cool downs and applying weakness, yet it is nowhere near OP. Remember you can LoS to prevent most interrupts when you don't have stab. If however you still think it's an issue a shave of duration to 2s or cutting it to 1 stack would solve it but it's still a fairly poor trait outside of mirage. > > > > > > > > > > The torch is not an issue, it has a 3s wind up on the prestige, the phantasmal mage is very well telegraphed and has far more counter play (you can literally run through it's hitbox when it is casting) than most skills in the game while mesmer also has only 2 weapons that apply burning where staff has it on a random proc of auto. The ambush (mirage only) has some pretty decent burn from the staff ambush especially from clones however most people are not playing that and it has a fair wind up. > > > > > > > > > > What I think is the biggest offender for condition application is the axe when combined with the trait generates a lot of torment which makes moving away to avoid follow up confusion application and procs far harder to do than should be reasonable. Likewise I feel like mirage thrust is overtuned, it shouldn't create a clone and while I like the mobility I think it should require a target. Removing the daze would mean there's no power mirage build at all and that infinite horizon won't work with the build. A look at the trait prestige for becoming a simple cool down reduction > > > > > > > > > > The reason I say target the ambush and axe skills is that they are changes that can be focused entirely for toning down mirage without nerfing other builds that aren't very good at all. > > > > > > > > > > Also Elusive mind in ways invalidates your last sentence about mirage, it's carrying a lot of very very bad players higher than they should be because they simply cannot be punished for being bad once or twice. If you don't dodge CC you should be punished, I don't think you should pay a 7-10k price like some classes can spit out frequently but still you should be punished. > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Maybe a change for ineptitude could be removing the interrupts inflict blind aspect but keep blinds inflict confusion. This way confusion from it requires traiting into blinding dissipation and usually running a torch/pistol for magic bullet. Not sure I like that though as blind isn't really something a core mesmer has but it's something to consider. It tones down the number of blinds and confusion stacks and removes a lot of offence from the sword for a condition build. > > > > > > > > How does stability help vs the blind application that then applies confusion? That is the bigger issue than the interrupt. As you mentioned the interrupt part is counterable and interrupting something needs active gameplay and it is a good mechanic to reward interrupting something. Also the biggest part of Powerblock is not working on autoattacks (higher cd), so powerblock rewards interrupting keyskills like heal way more than dazespam to random interrupt autoattacks. Ineptitude doesn't have such a mechanic. Means there are 2 reasons at least why Ineptitude is op and Powerblock is not. The double function of Ineptitude needs an icd to prevent spamming, also i get what you say about icds. But seriously it can't be too hard to have 5 secs in mind, you even can see the cd on the shatter you used to blind. > > > > > > > > I don't think mirage thrust is op at all. They could remove the clone yes, but i don't even think that is needed. It would nerf power mirtage too what is not in any need of a nerf (if anything than nerf superiority complex before everything else, ofc i forgot Elusive Mind, the stunbreak needs to go, i said that often already). Mirage thrust is a leap and i don't remember a single leap in this game need a target, why should mesmer be the only class get a targetneed? The mirage has to use dodges for the leap, means it has accurate costs and the range is in the normal margin for leaps. There is no problem with a mesmer spec having this amount of mobility as long as there is no facetank ability added. The problem with condi and hybrid mirage is that they have everything in addition to the mobility, they have almost no bad matchup as a side node dueler, they have high sustain (because most builds don't need to use dodges pure offensively for high dmg) and easy applied burst and even sustained dmg. Only in that combination the mobility is a problem. To not overnerf mirages mobility (what clearly is a main feature of the spec) for all builds not op you cannot nerf that. You need to nerf the op stuff on condi and hybrid mirage. Otherwise you will get an unplayable up power mesmer spec again. Sindrener complains about power mesmers in his team before he even knows if they are good or not for some reasons. Its not viable at all already and hard to make it work even in solo q (high rank, EU) when you start to meet decent player. **The mirage spec itself is not op, what makes mirage op are core mesmer traits preventing the mirage from the need to use dodges pure offensive here and there. Traits that are too strong itself, regardless of the mesmer using chrono core or mirgae (and regardless if the whole build gets op or not from using them).** > > > > > > > > Edit: The way mesmer applies the torch burn is not by let the phantasm hit. Its going into stealth and precasting the phantasm (what applies burn already) and then blink or jaunt into range and proc prestige and the phantasm cast burn and that out of stealth sometimes even from range. When you watch misha playing you can see how well that in general obviously stealthing- prestige proc can be covered even when happening right in front of your face. Still i agree most condimesmer are bad or average so you can just count 1... 2.. and dodge when you see them torchstealthing (what most ppl don't do, they get hit by most obvious stealth bursts and then start crying). > > > > > > Blinding dissipation isn't that strong of a trait but synergises well with ineptitude however on a core build that isn't a problem, on chrono this is again not a problem but stronger than core but on mirage it becomes very strong. What makes ineptitude too strong on mirage is mirage thrust where the interrupt allows for more confusion and blind applied. Removing the daze from mirage thrust would make it pointless so removing the interrupts inflict blind while keeping the blinds inflict confusion acts to tone down mirage without affecting core and chrono as much. This is why stability helps vs condition mesmer, no interrupts, no blind, no confusion. > > > > > > The reason I mention mirage thrust is it gives mesmer far more mobility than it needs which was a major issue with thief and daredevil, I know it's not OP on glass mesmer but the ability to leap from a bad fight so much is something I don't think you should be able to do so easily. It's also a very overloaded skill, 600 range leap, daze, damage and generates a clone on connect. > > > > No the blind-confusion synergy is the main problem and more spamable in particular more or less instant. Mirage thrust is a good visible leap far away from being instant even in melee, when you get hit and even interrupted by that it is your fault, also as said interrupting something at least needs active gameplay. Also as said being able to escape from fights is ok as long as the build doesn't have all other things like high sustain, high burst and sustain dmg in addition. You say yourself it is not a problem on a pure glass shatter mes, so why nerf it for these builds too? Nerf what makes condi and hybrid op, that is having high sustain+high burst+hish sustained dmg in addition to the mobility. > > I would rather not see nerfs that hit competing builds. If you nerf core and chrono condition application especially as much as you are saying (5-10s ICD on confusion on blind) then you essentially make any other version of condition mesmer but mirage completely unviable. To put it in perspective say the relative strength of core, chrono and mirage condi is 5/6/10 respectively out of 10 and then you lower each by 2 because you're nerfing common traits they end up at 3/4/8 where basically what is already a fairly bad build that might just about work close to your rating suddenly becomes unplayable. > > What you are advocating is massively reducing possible builds whether you realise it or not. > > The same doesn't always matter when we are talking builds that have different focus's because they will usually contain enough differences that you can make up for a shortfall somewhere else. Also yes mesmer mobility is a problem on power mesmer, just because they've nerfed power shatter so far into the ground it's unviable doesn't alter that mirage thrust gives mesmer too much escape when it already has plenty. I said the same thing about riptide which you can find on the forums, just because it's not too strong now in the current meta doesn't make it not a problem. I'm too tired to repeat myself again. Lets say we disagree on how to deal with the condispam from ineptiude. A build that cannot facetank at all needs active gameplay elements like mobility and mirage thrust doesn't give power mesmer too much of it in my view, a thief is still better in disengaging and also there i don't think it is too much. We have different opinions and can end the discussion with this awareness before we fill another 50 sides thread about mesmer xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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