Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 Right now, I can't stop wondering how badly Price and Fries botched the Come to Jesus meeting. This may come as a surprise to you all, but I've been reprimanded at my jobs before. I know, big shocker. Sometimes my aspergers gets in the way, sometimes it is my innate stubbornness and aggressiveness, sometimes it is because of my political ideals. But, _I've never been fired_ for my mistakes. Whenever an issue comes up, if I don't end up hashing it out with that person without it coming to my bosses, I usually just talk out the situation with my bosses and they readily understand. We come to an agreement, and then things continue on as normal. If my bosses want me to do something or stop doing something, they tell me and then I listen. Now, this is all low level stuff. I've never been in a position of true power, and yet all of my bosses were hesitant to fire me over small disagreements. So how badly did Price and Fries mess up? There are a lot of ways this could've ended without having the Head of Narrative Development defenestrated. She could've changed her views and apologized. She could've refused to change her views and apologize anyway. She could've explained her situation and apologized. And Fries... he must've messed up pretty bad considering he was tertiary to the whole event. From all of this, I can extrapolate two possible explanations: (1): There was a pattern of behavior following behind these two people, and the current scandal was the straw that broke the camel's back. Considering their twitter history and their job history, this is a likely outcome. As mah boi Zack (AKA Richard C. Meyers) says, "A person doesn't get fired. They fired themselves. Their actions and behaviors change for the worse long before they actually get fired. They've mentally quit the job before it actually ends." I've seen it happen before, so there's a good chance that Price and Fries were grating on the nerves of everybody at the office for months, and this event just sealed their fate. (2): They quadrupled down, and went into a full aggro threatening stance over the issue. This one isn't as common, but it does happen. Normally it's called spiraling out of control. When they were called in by HR or Mike or whomever handles this, instead of listening and talking they freaked out, stood firm in their actions, refused to apologize or change, and maybe even threatened Anet directly. This is a less likely scenario, but if this happened it would explain why Fries was fired, too. He had a better standing to resolve this issue with an apology, so it makes more sense that he threw it away in martyrdom instead. Keep in mind, this is all conjecture via by Occams Razor. It could be that there is further conspiracy about that confounds Occam's Razor, but I can't give serious weight to those ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julischka Bean.7491 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 "She wasn't writing on A'Net's behalf, she was writing on her personal page" Not sure who I am quoting...but her name was on this personal page, therefore she represents Anet. If she was writing under a creative name such as "Foxy Asura 999" that would be a personal page...to me at least. Lisa-Confused Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Kenshader.1253 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"muffi.3964" said: > LOL@People citing KOTAKU. Those are not even real journalists, their writing style is horrible and they have less viewers than people like pewdiepie. Gaming journalism is dead for a reason. Just because you don't like them and don't agree with them, doesn't mean they aren't journalists. After all, journalism isn't a profession that serves to cater to one's own biases ;) But it does show that gaming industry is increasingly being discredited thanks to folks like GamerGate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loukious.7346 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Julischka Bean.7491" said: > I have a question. I just read the Verge article and something Peter Fries tweeted is troubling me. > > “These are our private social media accounts " > > Could someone define this use of Private? If their accounts were private, shouldn't they be under a different name than their work name? If everyone knows who they are, it can't be too private. > > Just a bit confused. > > Lisa. There was NO private in the situation. At least in JP's case. It was an open twitter (you can "lock" your page down to only posts can be seen by followers) with ANet Narrative Team on her bio. She also posted a continuation from her AMA earlier. Deroir commented on it and she acted like a petulant child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loukious.7346 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Tolmos.8395" said: > Here's a really interesting piece of backstory someone posted to reddit that I didn't know. > > _"So, this was the last piece of the puzzle I needed to see to understand the whole thing from start to finish (at least from Deroir's point of view)._ > > _For those who can't view this clip - Deroir absolute loves Jessica Price. That is not an overstatement. He said that he loves her responses and that "she's the God of kitten AMAs" and that "she gives great answers all the way through and that it's absolutely amazing to read through." This clip was taken before the incident on twitter occurred._ > > _So when JP posted her essay on twitter - on a subject that Deroir was interested in (narrative development) and by someone he looked up to and admired because of her thorough, well-crafted and intricate responses in the AMA previously - he saw the chance to engage with her in civil discourse and took it._ > > _I sincerely hope that JP does see this clip. She needs to understand that not every fan/gamer/man out there is out specifically to get her or to "mansplain" to her. In fact, she went off on a person who greatly admired her work and her intelligence and just wanted to take the chance to speak with her more about her work in narrative development only to be shut down in a very cruel and unwarranted fashion."_ > > > His response to the situation: https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8wnkw8/deroirs_response_to_the_incident/ That whole Reddit line hurt my heart. Deroir seems like a cool guy and just REALLY wanted to have a discussion with a person he had HIGH regards for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Kenshader.1253 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"TheNecrosanct.4028" said: > I am wondering whether all the people who find JP's firing an overreaction have actually built up careers. A simple Google search on "fired because of social media" gives you a slew of examples. People fired because of inappropriate posts, racist posts, misplaced jokes, posts unrelated to their work on social media accounts and on accounts not tied to their employer. This really is not a strange or outrageous phenomenon, but an obvious one for any of us who have careers. Of course, when you display your employment on your account and post your official work there as well, the connection is a no-brainer, as are the consequences for negative and socially unacceptable behavior, and even beliefs. > > Claims of "having the right to sue for wrongful termination" in the case of PF I also don't understand. What do these people know of the internal goings on at ANet's office that the rest of us don't? How are they privvy to this non-public information? How do they know all the steps taken? How do they know ANet hasn't offered both of them to make an apology, and how do they know how either JP or PF responded? If you also don't understand the dangerous legal position ANet would place themselves in if they had fired only JP and not PF, in a case where sexism was used in an accusatory fashion, you are not as knowledgeable about these topics as you think you are. JP legally can't use the sexism card against her former employer anymore, because they fired both a man and a woman over this incident. She can claim it in the media, but legally she doesn't have a foot to stand on with that argument. > > Just stop making claims based on assumptions, for which you need information none of us are privvy to because we don't work at ANet. We don't know all the details, we don't have copies of any internal documentation regarding this case, we don't have copies of ANet's contract of employment, we don't know what legal counsel they have received (though people with a legal background, especially in employment, would know these things). Yet people still make claims that can only be made by actually having all this information. And I'm pretty sure they don't have it, any of it. > > Claims about an alt-right mob are even more ludicrous, if people had even done their homework. Before MO made his announcement, there was very little alt-right trolling, mob mentality or baying going on. It may have increased after his announcement, but it's typical alt-right behavior to spot a situation they can benefit from and jump in and make claims about it, or even appropriate it. Lumping all reasonable and well thought out responses taking a stand against JP's behavior together with the baying trolls is doing a disservice, it's dumb and incredibly transparent. By putting the emphasis on that you're giving them more power than they have. They're trying to incite the mob mentality where there is none and to a certain extent their tactic has worked. Let's not give them the satisfaction and give them more power and influence. JP's behavoir against a customer and official partner to ANet is unacceptable, PF publicly taking a stand with her was a mistake on his part, and public opinion is very much a factor, whether we like it or not. Without the public, most companies do not survive. Without the public, most of us wouldn't have a job. So their perception is important and should always be considered from a business point of view. It's easy to make this personal, or even ideological, while at its core it's just business and public image. Social media is not private and if you actively espouse your employer and talk about your work on such a platform, it's neither private nor personal. It is the weakest excuse in this situation, and both JP and PF know this, whether they want to admit it or not. I really don't believe either of them would be this naïve. > > Edit: grammar The problem is the hypocrisy. After all the folks who cheered that JP was fired are also the same people who cried and protested when Subnautica fired one of their developers for stupid stuff he said on his own twitter post. No matter how one slices it, it's an alt-right mob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolmos.8395 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > @"muffi.3964" said: > > LOL@People citing KOTAKU. Those are not even real journalists, their writing style is horrible and they have less viewers than people like pewdiepie. Gaming journalism is dead for a reason. > > Just because you don't like them and don't agree with them, doesn't mean they aren't journalists. After all, journalism isn't a profession that serves to cater to one's own biases ;) > > But it does show that gaming industry is increasingly being discredited thanks to folks like kitten. Kotaku's big issue is that their brand of journalism is sensational only. They selectively hand-pick facts to try to create the most rage-worthy story they can muster, and leave out really important aspects that actually add context to the situation. You could have a situation where a young woman grabs a knife and tries to stab some random guy on the street, and he pushes her to the ground right before she manages to kill him. The Kotaku article would be titled "Man pushes woman to the ground" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julischka Bean.7491 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Loukious.7346" said: > > @"Tolmos.8395" said: > > Here's a really interesting piece of backstory someone posted to reddit that I didn't know. > > > > _"So, this was the last piece of the puzzle I needed to see to understand the whole thing from start to finish (at least from Deroir's point of view)._ > > > > _For those who can't view this clip - Deroir absolute loves Jessica Price. That is not an overstatement. He said that he loves her responses and that "she's the God of kitten AMAs" and that "she gives great answers all the way through and that it's absolutely amazing to read through." This clip was taken before the incident on twitter occurred._ > > > > _So when JP posted her essay on twitter - on a subject that Deroir was interested in (narrative development) and by someone he looked up to and admired because of her thorough, well-crafted and intricate responses in the AMA previously - he saw the chance to engage with her in civil discourse and took it._ > > > > _I sincerely hope that JP does see this clip. She needs to understand that not every fan/gamer/man out there is out specifically to get her or to "mansplain" to her. In fact, she went off on a person who greatly admired her work and her intelligence and just wanted to take the chance to speak with her more about her work in narrative development only to be shut down in a very cruel and unwarranted fashion."_ > > > > > > His response to the situation: https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8wnkw8/deroirs_response_to_the_incident/ > > That whole Reddit line hurt my heart. Deroir seems like a cool guy and just REALLY wanted to have a discussion with a person he had HIGH regards for. I agree with you. He held himself very professionally under the circumstance. Wish I could give him a big Texas sized hug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scud.5067 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 Wow. A lot of 1 post, new accounts being made to defend bullying and prejudice - and push a certain 'victim' narrative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe.1807 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Tolmos.8395" said: > > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > > @"Julischka Bean.7491" said: > > > Hello all. I have been busy playing and have not read Reddit, or Guildwars2 forums, so I missed out on this whole thing. To me, Jessica's firing was a good call. She was awful. I applaud that decision. But...to me, Peter Fries did not deserve being fired. He deserved to be read the riot act, and publicly apologize, but not fired. Peter Fries firing is what makes me uneasy about the future. As Linnea has said, the Trolls have now been gifted with immense power over the DEVs. If it was just Jessica who was fired, it would not have been so scary. But they fired Peter Fries!!!! He was the one with the company for over a decade!!! With a firing of that magnitude under their belts, , the Trolls are going to be out in force, poking all the buttons they can find. > > > > > > Sigh. I guess we are no longer going to have Dev interaction..except for Barefeet Matthew who appears like he can handle all the gunk the trolls sling at him. > > > > > > But, thank you Devs for ejecting Jessica. I am a woman, and I am thanking the Devs :) > > > > > > Lisa. > > > > Dont think the trolls have any power to get devs fired...lets say if they want someone like Gayle fired, you really believe that the community wont stand at her side? Devs dont need to pretend to love us or anything, but being extremelly rude for no reason is not a good thing. > > Gayle would also have to do something wrong. That's the missing link there. The community can want anyone they desire fired, but if that person never does anything actionable then no firing will occur. Exactly! I said that cause some people here are trying to sell that Jessica was fired cause she was a woman and the "alt-right Reddit trolls" wanted...it have nothing to do with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Kenshader.1253 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Tolmos.8395" said: > > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > > @"muffi.3964" said: > > > LOL@People citing KOTAKU. Those are not even real journalists, their writing style is horrible and they have less viewers than people like pewdiepie. Gaming journalism is dead for a reason. > > > > Just because you don't like them and don't agree with them, doesn't mean they aren't journalists. After all, journalism isn't a profession that serves to cater to one's own biases ;) > > > > But it does show that gaming industry is increasingly being discredited thanks to folks like kitten. > > Kotaku's big issue is that their brand of journalism is sensational only. They selectively hand-pick facts to try to create the most rage-worthy story they can muster, and leave out really important aspects that actually add context to the situation. You could have a situation where a young woman grabs a knife and tries to stab some random guy on the street, and he pushes her to the ground right before she manages to kill him. The Kotaku article would be titled "Man pushes woman to the ground" You can say that about any gaming site in general. One Angry Gamer, IGN, Gamespot, Gameranx, the Escapist, etc. It's only sensational and cherry picking if one doesn't agree with the article, for others it's just the facts presented to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolmos.8395 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Julischka Bean.7491" said: > > @"Loukious.7346" said: > > > @"Tolmos.8395" said: > > > Here's a really interesting piece of backstory someone posted to reddit that I didn't know. > > > > > > _"So, this was the last piece of the puzzle I needed to see to understand the whole thing from start to finish (at least from Deroir's point of view)._ > > > > > > _For those who can't view this clip - Deroir absolute loves Jessica Price. That is not an overstatement. He said that he loves her responses and that "she's the God of kitten AMAs" and that "she gives great answers all the way through and that it's absolutely amazing to read through." This clip was taken before the incident on twitter occurred._ > > > > > > _So when JP posted her essay on twitter - on a subject that Deroir was interested in (narrative development) and by someone he looked up to and admired because of her thorough, well-crafted and intricate responses in the AMA previously - he saw the chance to engage with her in civil discourse and took it._ > > > > > > _I sincerely hope that JP does see this clip. She needs to understand that not every fan/gamer/man out there is out specifically to get her or to "mansplain" to her. In fact, she went off on a person who greatly admired her work and her intelligence and just wanted to take the chance to speak with her more about her work in narrative development only to be shut down in a very cruel and unwarranted fashion."_ > > > > > > > > > His response to the situation: https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8wnkw8/deroirs_response_to_the_incident/ > > > > That whole Reddit line hurt my heart. Deroir seems like a cool guy and just REALLY wanted to have a discussion with a person he had HIGH regards for. > > I agree with you. He held himself very professionally under the circumstance. Wish I could give him a big Texas sized hug. In his response video, at least, he said that after the outpouring of support he received he no longer believes that any of this was his fault. But that said, he still feels bad because he feels like the catalyst for all of it. All he wanted was to discuss a topic of interest to him with a person he looked up to, and it resulted in her lashing out at him, calling him sexist and then her getting fired. I think he's more shocked that all that could have happened from him simply saying "I disagree slightly". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loli Ruri.8307 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Linnea.5146" said: > ArenaNet, Mr. O'Brien > > Firing her was excessive and has only fed the toxicity that is part of the gaming community. You have now signalled that if an employee voices an unpopular opinion on social media they will be fired if the trolls cry loudly enough. 12 years of work at your company should not be outweighed by a single tweet. What she wrote was not nice, but also not unforgivable. A public apology would have been enough. > > Congratulations on giving the trolls the ultimate treat. Ummm social justice warriors have been doing this for years. This is nothing new. Also her actions were actually inexcusable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loukious.7346 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Julischka Bean.7491" said: > > @"Loukious.7346" said: > > > @"Tolmos.8395" said: > > > Here's a really interesting piece of backstory someone posted to reddit that I didn't know. > > > > > > _"So, this was the last piece of the puzzle I needed to see to understand the whole thing from start to finish (at least from Deroir's point of view)._ > > > > > > _For those who can't view this clip - Deroir absolute loves Jessica Price. That is not an overstatement. He said that he loves her responses and that "she's the God of kitten AMAs" and that "she gives great answers all the way through and that it's absolutely amazing to read through." This clip was taken before the incident on twitter occurred._ > > > > > > _So when JP posted her essay on twitter - on a subject that Deroir was interested in (narrative development) and by someone he looked up to and admired because of her thorough, well-crafted and intricate responses in the AMA previously - he saw the chance to engage with her in civil discourse and took it._ > > > > > > _I sincerely hope that JP does see this clip. She needs to understand that not every fan/gamer/man out there is out specifically to get her or to "mansplain" to her. In fact, she went off on a person who greatly admired her work and her intelligence and just wanted to take the chance to speak with her more about her work in narrative development only to be shut down in a very cruel and unwarranted fashion."_ > > > > > > > > > His response to the situation: https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8wnkw8/deroirs_response_to_the_incident/ > > > > That whole Reddit line hurt my heart. Deroir seems like a cool guy and just REALLY wanted to have a discussion with a person he had HIGH regards for. > > I agree with you. He held himself very professionally under the circumstance. Wish I could give him a big Texas sized hug. Yeah and reading through it. You find out Deroir is actually knowledgeable in the career path. Like honestly ANet needs to hire him for her job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julischka Bean.7491 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > @"TheNecrosanct.4028" said: > > I am wondering whether all the people who find JP's firing an overreaction have actually built up careers. A simple Google search on "fired because of social media" gives you a slew of examples. People fired because of inappropriate posts, racist posts, misplaced jokes, posts unrelated to their work on social media accounts and on accounts not tied to their employer. This really is not a strange or outrageous phenomenon, but an obvious one for any of us who have careers. Of course, when you display your employment on your account and post your official work there as well, the connection is a no-brainer, as are the consequences for negative and socially unacceptable behavior, and even beliefs. > > > > Claims of "having the right to sue for wrongful termination" in the case of PF I also don't understand. What do these people know of the internal goings on at ANet's office that the rest of us don't? How are they privvy to this non-public information? How do they know all the steps taken? How do they know ANet hasn't offered both of them to make an apology, and how do they know how either JP or PF responded? If you also don't understand the dangerous legal position ANet would place themselves in if they had fired only JP and not PF, in a case where sexism was used in an accusatory fashion, you are not as knowledgeable about these topics as you think you are. JP legally can't use the sexism card against her former employer anymore, because they fired both a man and a woman over this incident. She can claim it in the media, but legally she doesn't have a foot to stand on with that argument. > > > > Just stop making claims based on assumptions, for which you need information none of us are privvy to because we don't work at ANet. We don't know all the details, we don't have copies of any internal documentation regarding this case, we don't have copies of ANet's contract of employment, we don't know what legal counsel they have received (though people with a legal background, especially in employment, would know these things). Yet people still make claims that can only be made by actually having all this information. And I'm pretty sure they don't have it, any of it. > > > > Claims about an alt-right mob are even more ludicrous, if people had even done their homework. Before MO made his announcement, there was very little alt-right trolling, mob mentality or baying going on. It may have increased after his announcement, but it's typical alt-right behavior to spot a situation they can benefit from and jump in and make claims about it, or even appropriate it. Lumping all reasonable and well thought out responses taking a stand against JP's behavior together with the baying trolls is doing a disservice, it's dumb and incredibly transparent. By putting the emphasis on that you're giving them more power than they have. They're trying to incite the mob mentality where there is none and to a certain extent their tactic has worked. Let's not give them the satisfaction and give them more power and influence. JP's behavoir against a customer and official partner to ANet is unacceptable, PF publicly taking a stand with her was a mistake on his part, and public opinion is very much a factor, whether we like it or not. Without the public, most companies do not survive. Without the public, most of us wouldn't have a job. So their perception is important and should always be considered from a business point of view. It's easy to make this personal, or even ideological, while at its core it's just business and public image. Social media is not private and if you actively espouse your employer and talk about your work on such a platform, it's neither private nor personal. It is the weakest excuse in this situation, and both JP and PF know this, whether they want to admit it or not. I really don't believe either of them would be this naïve. > > > > Edit: grammar > > The problem is the hypocrisy. After all the folks who cheered that JP was fired are also the same people who cried and protested when Subnautica fired one of their developers for stupid stuff he said on his own twitter post. No matter how one slices it, it's an alt-right mob. I know nothing about Subnautica. Jessica did not say just stupid stuff, she was meaner than a rattlesnake...and toward her company's customers. alt-right..,sheesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dengar.1785 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > @"muffi.3964" said: > > LOL@People citing KOTAKU. Those are not even real journalists, their writing style is horrible and they have less viewers than people like pewdiepie. Gaming journalism is dead for a reason. > > Just because you don't like them and don't agree with them, doesn't mean they aren't journalists. After all, journalism isn't a profession that serves to cater to one's own biases ;) > > But it does show that gaming industry is increasingly being discredited thanks to folks like kitten. That is indeed not what journalism is. Journalism is a profession that reports the facts. Which is a thing that Kotaku often fails to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Julischka Bean.7491" said: > "She wasn't writing on A'Net's behalf, she was writing on her personal page" > > Not sure who I am quoting...but her name was on this personal page, therefore she represents Anet. If she was writing under a creative name such as "Foxy Asura 999" that would be a personal page...to me at least. > Lisa-Confused Expect that to be the Future, that Devs will not expose themselves on Social Media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dengar.1785 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > @"Tolmos.8395" said: > > > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > > > @"muffi.3964" said: > > > > LOL@People citing KOTAKU. Those are not even real journalists, their writing style is horrible and they have less viewers than people like pewdiepie. Gaming journalism is dead for a reason. > > > > > > Just because you don't like them and don't agree with them, doesn't mean they aren't journalists. After all, journalism isn't a profession that serves to cater to one's own biases ;) > > > > > > But it does show that gaming industry is increasingly being discredited thanks to folks like kitten. > > > > Kotaku's big issue is that their brand of journalism is sensational only. They selectively hand-pick facts to try to create the most rage-worthy story they can muster, and leave out really important aspects that actually add context to the situation. You could have a situation where a young woman grabs a knife and tries to stab some random guy on the street, and he pushes her to the ground right before she manages to kill him. The Kotaku article would be titled "Man pushes woman to the ground" > > You can say that about any gaming site in general. One Angry Gamer, IGN, Gamespot, Gameranx, the Escapist, etc. It's only sensational and cherry picking if one doesn't agree with the article, for others it's just the facts presented to them. Well yes, but you will find that most of those sites don't really have a vendetta with gamers, nor do they lie even *half* as often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Kenshader.1253 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Julischka Bean.7491" said: > > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > > @"TheNecrosanct.4028" said: > > > I am wondering whether all the people who find JP's firing an overreaction have actually built up careers. A simple Google search on "fired because of social media" gives you a slew of examples. People fired because of inappropriate posts, racist posts, misplaced jokes, posts unrelated to their work on social media accounts and on accounts not tied to their employer. This really is not a strange or outrageous phenomenon, but an obvious one for any of us who have careers. Of course, when you display your employment on your account and post your official work there as well, the connection is a no-brainer, as are the consequences for negative and socially unacceptable behavior, and even beliefs. > > > > > > Claims of "having the right to sue for wrongful termination" in the case of PF I also don't understand. What do these people know of the internal goings on at ANet's office that the rest of us don't? How are they privvy to this non-public information? How do they know all the steps taken? How do they know ANet hasn't offered both of them to make an apology, and how do they know how either JP or PF responded? If you also don't understand the dangerous legal position ANet would place themselves in if they had fired only JP and not PF, in a case where sexism was used in an accusatory fashion, you are not as knowledgeable about these topics as you think you are. JP legally can't use the sexism card against her former employer anymore, because they fired both a man and a woman over this incident. She can claim it in the media, but legally she doesn't have a foot to stand on with that argument. > > > > > > Just stop making claims based on assumptions, for which you need information none of us are privvy to because we don't work at ANet. We don't know all the details, we don't have copies of any internal documentation regarding this case, we don't have copies of ANet's contract of employment, we don't know what legal counsel they have received (though people with a legal background, especially in employment, would know these things). Yet people still make claims that can only be made by actually having all this information. And I'm pretty sure they don't have it, any of it. > > > > > > Claims about an alt-right mob are even more ludicrous, if people had even done their homework. Before MO made his announcement, there was very little alt-right trolling, mob mentality or baying going on. It may have increased after his announcement, but it's typical alt-right behavior to spot a situation they can benefit from and jump in and make claims about it, or even appropriate it. Lumping all reasonable and well thought out responses taking a stand against JP's behavior together with the baying trolls is doing a disservice, it's dumb and incredibly transparent. By putting the emphasis on that you're giving them more power than they have. They're trying to incite the mob mentality where there is none and to a certain extent their tactic has worked. Let's not give them the satisfaction and give them more power and influence. JP's behavoir against a customer and official partner to ANet is unacceptable, PF publicly taking a stand with her was a mistake on his part, and public opinion is very much a factor, whether we like it or not. Without the public, most companies do not survive. Without the public, most of us wouldn't have a job. So their perception is important and should always be considered from a business point of view. It's easy to make this personal, or even ideological, while at its core it's just business and public image. Social media is not private and if you actively espouse your employer and talk about your work on such a platform, it's neither private nor personal. It is the weakest excuse in this situation, and both JP and PF know this, whether they want to admit it or not. I really don't believe either of them would be this naïve. > > > > > > Edit: grammar > > > > The problem is the hypocrisy. After all the folks who cheered that JP was fired are also the same people who cried and protested when Subnautica fired one of their developers for stupid stuff he said on his own twitter post. No matter how one slices it, it's an alt-right mob. > > I know nothing about Subnautica. Jessica did not say just stupid stuff, she was meaner than a rattlesnake...and toward her company's customers. alt-right..,sheesh. > I saw the twitter thread, and honestly, both sides were acting like dummies (I wanna say something meaner, but alas, forum rules). Deroir was pretty much acting condescending and douchey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dengar.1785 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Julischka Bean.7491" said: > > "She wasn't writing on A'Net's behalf, she was writing on her personal page" > > > > Not sure who I am quoting...but her name was on this personal page, therefore she represents Anet. If she was writing under a creative name such as "Foxy Asura 999" that would be a personal page...to me at least. > > Lisa-Confused > > Expect that to be the Future, that Devs will not expose themselves on Social Media. Why? Everything is absolutely *fine* as long as you're not a complete asshat. > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > @"Julischka Bean.7491" said: > > > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > > > @"TheNecrosanct.4028" said: > > > > I am wondering whether all the people who find JP's firing an overreaction have actually built up careers. A simple Google search on "fired because of social media" gives you a slew of examples. People fired because of inappropriate posts, racist posts, misplaced jokes, posts unrelated to their work on social media accounts and on accounts not tied to their employer. This really is not a strange or outrageous phenomenon, but an obvious one for any of us who have careers. Of course, when you display your employment on your account and post your official work there as well, the connection is a no-brainer, as are the consequences for negative and socially unacceptable behavior, and even beliefs. > > > > > > > > Claims of "having the right to sue for wrongful termination" in the case of PF I also don't understand. What do these people know of the internal goings on at ANet's office that the rest of us don't? How are they privvy to this non-public information? How do they know all the steps taken? How do they know ANet hasn't offered both of them to make an apology, and how do they know how either JP or PF responded? If you also don't understand the dangerous legal position ANet would place themselves in if they had fired only JP and not PF, in a case where sexism was used in an accusatory fashion, you are not as knowledgeable about these topics as you think you are. JP legally can't use the sexism card against her former employer anymore, because they fired both a man and a woman over this incident. She can claim it in the media, but legally she doesn't have a foot to stand on with that argument. > > > > > > > > Just stop making claims based on assumptions, for which you need information none of us are privvy to because we don't work at ANet. We don't know all the details, we don't have copies of any internal documentation regarding this case, we don't have copies of ANet's contract of employment, we don't know what legal counsel they have received (though people with a legal background, especially in employment, would know these things). Yet people still make claims that can only be made by actually having all this information. And I'm pretty sure they don't have it, any of it. > > > > > > > > Claims about an alt-right mob are even more ludicrous, if people had even done their homework. Before MO made his announcement, there was very little alt-right trolling, mob mentality or baying going on. It may have increased after his announcement, but it's typical alt-right behavior to spot a situation they can benefit from and jump in and make claims about it, or even appropriate it. Lumping all reasonable and well thought out responses taking a stand against JP's behavior together with the baying trolls is doing a disservice, it's dumb and incredibly transparent. By putting the emphasis on that you're giving them more power than they have. They're trying to incite the mob mentality where there is none and to a certain extent their tactic has worked. Let's not give them the satisfaction and give them more power and influence. JP's behavoir against a customer and official partner to ANet is unacceptable, PF publicly taking a stand with her was a mistake on his part, and public opinion is very much a factor, whether we like it or not. Without the public, most companies do not survive. Without the public, most of us wouldn't have a job. So their perception is important and should always be considered from a business point of view. It's easy to make this personal, or even ideological, while at its core it's just business and public image. Social media is not private and if you actively espouse your employer and talk about your work on such a platform, it's neither private nor personal. It is the weakest excuse in this situation, and both JP and PF know this, whether they want to admit it or not. I really don't believe either of them would be this naïve. > > > > > > > > Edit: grammar > > > > > > The problem is the hypocrisy. After all the folks who cheered that JP was fired are also the same people who cried and protested when Subnautica fired one of their developers for stupid stuff he said on his own twitter post. No matter how one slices it, it's an alt-right mob. > > > > I know nothing about Subnautica. Jessica did not say just stupid stuff, she was meaner than a rattlesnake...and toward her company's customers. alt-right..,sheesh. > > > > I saw the twitter thread, and honestly, both sides were acting like dummies (I wanna say something meaner, but alas, forum rules). Deroir was pretty much acting condescending and douchey. Please provide a quote of him being condescending and douchey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loukious.7346 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Julischka Bean.7491" said: > > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > > @"TheNecrosanct.4028" said: > > > I am wondering whether all the people who find JP's firing an overreaction have actually built up careers. A simple Google search on "fired because of social media" gives you a slew of examples. People fired because of inappropriate posts, racist posts, misplaced jokes, posts unrelated to their work on social media accounts and on accounts not tied to their employer. This really is not a strange or outrageous phenomenon, but an obvious one for any of us who have careers. Of course, when you display your employment on your account and post your official work there as well, the connection is a no-brainer, as are the consequences for negative and socially unacceptable behavior, and even beliefs. > > > > > > Claims of "having the right to sue for wrongful termination" in the case of PF I also don't understand. What do these people know of the internal goings on at ANet's office that the rest of us don't? How are they privvy to this non-public information? How do they know all the steps taken? How do they know ANet hasn't offered both of them to make an apology, and how do they know how either JP or PF responded? If you also don't understand the dangerous legal position ANet would place themselves in if they had fired only JP and not PF, in a case where sexism was used in an accusatory fashion, you are not as knowledgeable about these topics as you think you are. JP legally can't use the sexism card against her former employer anymore, because they fired both a man and a woman over this incident. She can claim it in the media, but legally she doesn't have a foot to stand on with that argument. > > > > > > Just stop making claims based on assumptions, for which you need information none of us are privvy to because we don't work at ANet. We don't know all the details, we don't have copies of any internal documentation regarding this case, we don't have copies of ANet's contract of employment, we don't know what legal counsel they have received (though people with a legal background, especially in employment, would know these things). Yet people still make claims that can only be made by actually having all this information. And I'm pretty sure they don't have it, any of it. > > > > > > Claims about an alt-right mob are even more ludicrous, if people had even done their homework. Before MO made his announcement, there was very little alt-right trolling, mob mentality or baying going on. It may have increased after his announcement, but it's typical alt-right behavior to spot a situation they can benefit from and jump in and make claims about it, or even appropriate it. Lumping all reasonable and well thought out responses taking a stand against JP's behavior together with the baying trolls is doing a disservice, it's dumb and incredibly transparent. By putting the emphasis on that you're giving them more power than they have. They're trying to incite the mob mentality where there is none and to a certain extent their tactic has worked. Let's not give them the satisfaction and give them more power and influence. JP's behavoir against a customer and official partner to ANet is unacceptable, PF publicly taking a stand with her was a mistake on his part, and public opinion is very much a factor, whether we like it or not. Without the public, most companies do not survive. Without the public, most of us wouldn't have a job. So their perception is important and should always be considered from a business point of view. It's easy to make this personal, or even ideological, while at its core it's just business and public image. Social media is not private and if you actively espouse your employer and talk about your work on such a platform, it's neither private nor personal. It is the weakest excuse in this situation, and both JP and PF know this, whether they want to admit it or not. I really don't believe either of them would be this naïve. > > > > > > Edit: grammar > > > > The problem is the hypocrisy. After all the folks who cheered that JP was fired are also the same people who cried and protested when Subnautica fired one of their developers for stupid stuff he said on his own twitter post. No matter how one slices it, it's an alt-right mob. > > I know nothing about Subnautica. Jessica did not say just stupid stuff, she was meaner than a rattlesnake...and toward her company's customers. alt-right..,sheesh. > The difference is between the two issues. JP posted a long continuation of an AMA. Fan interacted. She went berserk. Subnautica Dev had a gamer give him shit about no female characters in the game. So instead of blowing it out of proportion or putting the person on blast (He never once pushed their name out there), he instead did a poll to his followers with the question 1) Add female character choice or 2) Fix bugs. Vote went to fixing bugs. I'm sorry that is god damn GREAT way to deal with people that bother you online as a Dev. If JP had done that with a question of 1) Create numerous branching conversation choices or 2)Keep choices way they are and she got fired over THAT then I'd be pissed that she was as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolmos.8395 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > @"Tolmos.8395" said: > > > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > > > @"muffi.3964" said: > > > > LOL@People citing KOTAKU. Those are not even real journalists, their writing style is horrible and they have less viewers than people like pewdiepie. Gaming journalism is dead for a reason. > > > > > > Just because you don't like them and don't agree with them, doesn't mean they aren't journalists. After all, journalism isn't a profession that serves to cater to one's own biases ;) > > > > > > But it does show that gaming industry is increasingly being discredited thanks to folks like kitten. > > > > Kotaku's big issue is that their brand of journalism is sensational only. They selectively hand-pick facts to try to create the most rage-worthy story they can muster, and leave out really important aspects that actually add context to the situation. You could have a situation where a young woman grabs a knife and tries to stab some random guy on the street, and he pushes her to the ground right before she manages to kill him. The Kotaku article would be titled "Man pushes woman to the ground" > > You can say that about any gaming site in general. One Angry Gamer, IGN, Gamespot, Gameranx, the Escapist, etc. It's only sensational and cherry picking if one doesn't agree with the article, for others it's just the facts presented to them. Websites like NPR and Reuters try to actively avoid that by giving all of the facts, which is the main contention folks have with things like Kotaku. Take "The Verge" article on this situation, for instance. The facts they presented lacked quite a few key pieces: * The streamer in question always looked up to JP and greatly respected her. He was trying to basically have a conversation about a topic he loved with someone he idolized * There was no mention of how a large portion of the outrage came from her remarks celebrating the death of Total Biscuit after he died from cancer, or the other bigoted comments about race that she made elsewhere in her feed * There was no mention of the fact that her twitter directly listed Arenanet, and being an employee of Arenanet, in several places; something that has gotten MANY people fired across many industries when making derogatory statements about folks based on race, gender, nationality or religion * It didn't show any of the streamer's heartbreakingly sweet and considerate responses to her toxic vitriol trying to deescalate the situation, apologizing profusely despite not actually knowing why or what he did wrong. Instead, the article sought only to create an image of fear mongering: that this poor developer posted on her twitter, an evil-man pig told her to shut up, smile and listen to how it's really done, and then she was fired because reddit was pissed she didn't make them all sammiches. Oh, and watch out other developers of Arenanet: you're probably next! Reddit just has to say the word and Arenanet will have the paperwork filed by lunch! That may be journalism, but only in-so-much as the magazines next to cash registers talking about how Bill Clinton met with aliens in a limousine are journalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loukious.7346 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > @"Julischka Bean.7491" said: > > > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > > > @"TheNecrosanct.4028" said: > > > > I am wondering whether all the people who find JP's firing an overreaction have actually built up careers. A simple Google search on "fired because of social media" gives you a slew of examples. People fired because of inappropriate posts, racist posts, misplaced jokes, posts unrelated to their work on social media accounts and on accounts not tied to their employer. This really is not a strange or outrageous phenomenon, but an obvious one for any of us who have careers. Of course, when you display your employment on your account and post your official work there as well, the connection is a no-brainer, as are the consequences for negative and socially unacceptable behavior, and even beliefs. > > > > > > > > Claims of "having the right to sue for wrongful termination" in the case of PF I also don't understand. What do these people know of the internal goings on at ANet's office that the rest of us don't? How are they privvy to this non-public information? How do they know all the steps taken? How do they know ANet hasn't offered both of them to make an apology, and how do they know how either JP or PF responded? If you also don't understand the dangerous legal position ANet would place themselves in if they had fired only JP and not PF, in a case where sexism was used in an accusatory fashion, you are not as knowledgeable about these topics as you think you are. JP legally can't use the sexism card against her former employer anymore, because they fired both a man and a woman over this incident. She can claim it in the media, but legally she doesn't have a foot to stand on with that argument. > > > > > > > > Just stop making claims based on assumptions, for which you need information none of us are privvy to because we don't work at ANet. We don't know all the details, we don't have copies of any internal documentation regarding this case, we don't have copies of ANet's contract of employment, we don't know what legal counsel they have received (though people with a legal background, especially in employment, would know these things). Yet people still make claims that can only be made by actually having all this information. And I'm pretty sure they don't have it, any of it. > > > > > > > > Claims about an alt-right mob are even more ludicrous, if people had even done their homework. Before MO made his announcement, there was very little alt-right trolling, mob mentality or baying going on. It may have increased after his announcement, but it's typical alt-right behavior to spot a situation they can benefit from and jump in and make claims about it, or even appropriate it. Lumping all reasonable and well thought out responses taking a stand against JP's behavior together with the baying trolls is doing a disservice, it's dumb and incredibly transparent. By putting the emphasis on that you're giving them more power than they have. They're trying to incite the mob mentality where there is none and to a certain extent their tactic has worked. Let's not give them the satisfaction and give them more power and influence. JP's behavoir against a customer and official partner to ANet is unacceptable, PF publicly taking a stand with her was a mistake on his part, and public opinion is very much a factor, whether we like it or not. Without the public, most companies do not survive. Without the public, most of us wouldn't have a job. So their perception is important and should always be considered from a business point of view. It's easy to make this personal, or even ideological, while at its core it's just business and public image. Social media is not private and if you actively espouse your employer and talk about your work on such a platform, it's neither private nor personal. It is the weakest excuse in this situation, and both JP and PF know this, whether they want to admit it or not. I really don't believe either of them would be this naïve. > > > > > > > > Edit: grammar > > > > > > The problem is the hypocrisy. After all the folks who cheered that JP was fired are also the same people who cried and protested when Subnautica fired one of their developers for stupid stuff he said on his own twitter post. No matter how one slices it, it's an alt-right mob. > > > > I know nothing about Subnautica. Jessica did not say just stupid stuff, she was meaner than a rattlesnake...and toward her company's customers. alt-right..,sheesh. > > > > I saw the twitter thread, and honestly, both sides were acting like dummies (I wanna say something meaner, but alas, forum rules). Deroir was pretty much acting condescending and douchey. I think I need my glasses checked at the VA. Cause I have ZERO clue where you got that from ANY of his tweets towards her through this entire thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julischka Bean.7491 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 Hello Ace. And so, we are reading the same bits of text, and have come to different conclusions, which is what makes us human. To me, Deroir was trying to keep his cool, and to you he was condescending and douchey. This is why social media is such a problem...not sure what can be about it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolmos.8395 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Julischka Bean.7491" said: > Hello Ace. And so, we are reading the same bits of text, and have come to different conclusions, which is what makes us human. To me, Deroir was trying to keep his cool, and to you he was condescending and douchey. This is why social media is such a problem...not sure what can be about it though. > He wasn't even trying to keep his cool; he was trying to figure out what he did wrong. He idolized her and the work that she did, and was basically reaching out to talk to someone he looked up to about a topic he loved and got absolutely thrashed by her for it. English isn't his first language, but he was doing his best to deescalate the situation and apologize; he just didn't know what to apologize for. None of that mattered though, as it just kept making her more angry the more he tried. It really kinda hurts to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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