GW 2 Devs/Playerbase Twitter Discussion

[juhani.5361]

> @"morrolan.9608" said:

> > @"juhani.5361" said:

> > Like I said before-- I think the firing decision was the right one. But none of the side-effects are good or beneficial in the long run. It's a titanic mess that's only getting worse.

>

> There's already some direct, poor side effects that have come about due to the firings emboldening those who want to harass women in the gaming industry. I've just read twitter chains from 2 female devs. One of them had someone write to her boss spinning a story about her being toxic and how she should be fired. The other actually had someone create a change.org petition for exactly the same reason.

>

> I really hope Mike O'Brien sees what happening and reflects on what he might have done better.

>

 

Yes, maybe he'll check people's Twitter feeds and do more investigation before hiring them.

[morrolan.9608]

> @"Thobek.1730" said:

> > @"morrolan.9608" said:

> >

> > I really hope Mike O'Brien sees what happening and reflects on what he might have done better.

> >

>

> More like, I really hope Jessica Price sees what is happening reflects on how she could of handled the situation better.

 

They both should reflect, there's fault on all sides IMO.

[Hannelore.8153]

Alot has been said about this so I'm just going to summarise my feelings on the matter.

 

People keep citing JP's lack of professionalism in her replies, without realising that ruining someone's career is just as unprofessional. You can't teach people lessons by condemning them, it just boxes them into their bad behavior even further.

 

ArenaNet did not take themselves "above and beyond" the events that transpired, they got down in the dirt to play around in the mud with the employee and the customer who were doing the moral equivalent of playing slap. If you think this exchange was "toxic" then you have no idea how horrible the world (and people) really are. I've seen people have worse things said to them over dinnertime, and gamers tend to be absolutely horrific to developers especially, sometimes even sending death threats over balance changes.

 

What many people herald as an achievement--firing two employees--is often regarded to be a last resort, because no matter what you think about a person, replacing their talent and what they brought to the game is not easy, and its actions like this that lead to product failure

 

I'm not going to try to explain it in and out.. I will just say, if you are a gamer, and not a game-developer, you cannot understand, because you don't live the life that they do. Even without things like sexism causing trouble, the games industry is terrible with a high amount of stress from all directions, especially with it being the industry with the highest amount of "crunching" (work marathoning).

 

And the fact that ArenaNet would take these actions and harm the future of the game to solve a single PR disaster that had no effect on the game itself, shows that they don't really care about the customers at all--and the people applauding them for caring about customers when now they will have to invest alot of time and resources into replacing what has been lost just goes to show that those customers do not have any clue about how game development works, or the long-term consequences of this.

 

It wasn't a heroic action, it wasn't professional, and it cost your (and my) money to fire them. We pay for it all.

[Vayne.8563]

> @"mewbee.6489" said:

> I never thought i would post on a GW2 forum, I never even thought I would play GW2, but here I am. My partner has been playing for years and eventually wore me down. I just started playing a couple of weeks ago and I am obsessed. The story keeps getting better and better.

>

> I just wanted to express my disappointment about this Jessica Price deal. The language that the fan chose while correcting Jessica was condescending, and I don't understand why this is even a thing people are arguing about. He might not have been aware of it, or intended it, but I think it was her full right to call him out on it. From what we have heard, this twitter rant is the reason Jessica and Fries were fired. Ive tried to see this from Arenanets side but i just cannot support it. I can't agree with a company trying to silence their employees. This was a woman tired of men trying to explain to her how to do her job, she defended herself and her work at arenanet, and got fired for it. I do not think calling a fan an kitten is a legitimate reason to fire someone. They should have defended their staff.

 

The fan was Danish. English isn't his first language. He also talked up Jessica Price on his stream just days before, he's a huge fan of her as a dev and pointed out how knowledgable and interesting her posts were. I didn't find his remarks at all condescending. He had an opinion that disagreed with what Jessica was saying.

 

Not everyone has the same degree of language knowledge or control and not everyone expresses themselves in text as clearly as they would like. To say something is condescending is hard with text, because it's easy to read tone into something depending on what you expect.

 

It was easy enough for Jessica to explain why Deroir was incorrect, as I believe he was. But regardless of that, your opinion of his comments being condescending doesn't make them condescending, since I read the same words you did, as did my wife, and neither of us found them so. My wife's first thought was that Jessica somehow misread what he said, because she couldn't find any reason for Jessica's reaction.

 

At any rate, if a feminist wants to teach how not to be condescending, this is not the way to go about it. This type of attack doesn't make most people sympathetic to a cause, unless they already support that cause. Most others won't give the benefit of the doubt to Jessica, because one of the two people in the conversation at least seemed civil.

[Ephemiel.5694]

It's very disconcerting the sudden amount of new accounts that seem to only post here, defend JP and then vanish.

[cyanweapon.7290]

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> People keep citing JP's lack of professionalism in her replies, without realising that ruining someone's career is just as unprofessional. You can't teach people lessons by condemning them, it just boxes them into their bad behavior even further.

 

Anet's reaction was very professional. It maintained a professional standard with its community - taking a stance in direct opposition to representatives belittling and demeaning its customers. Without customers, you don't have a job. Maintaining a positive relationship and staying loyal to customers is.. like... Business 101. Or not even. It's like Business 050; absolute remedial. If it's a lesson you don't get, don't worry. Capitalism will work as intended with or without you.

 

Anet didn't ruin her career. She already had a career. Her actions ruined it. It isn't Anet's job to be her parent, nor shoulder the burden of her poor choices. It doesn't owe her that. All it owes her is a paycheck in compensation for the work she provides. That is a professional relationship. Keeping her on would have damaged the company's position with its consumer - remember that being a thing? The company could afford to lose her. There's no shortage of people who'd absolutely love to have her position.

 

Actions have consequences. No one owes her anything. She got paid to do a job for the duration that she was a benefit to the team. She stopped being a benefit. This couldn't be more basic business. It's the definition of a professional environment.

 

*Edited to be a little less harsh.*

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > > At least part of your statement is correct, MO and ArenaNet will look bad and it will cause players to leave the game...perhaps not as many as if he had kept probably the two best writers on the team, but still, people will leave, because in the end. An employer should always have their employees back in a dispute with a customer...always, that is a fundamental tenet of being a good leader(whether that's from a Lead all the way up to a CEO, you should always have your employees backs).

> >

> > IF you read MOs reply here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/594568/#Comment_594568 you will find this:

> > > In this case, however, our employees could have chosen not to engage, and they could have brought the issue to the company, whereby we would have done everything we could to protect them.

> > > We won’t tolerate harassment. When an employee feels harassed, we want them to bring the issue to us, so that we can protect the employee, deal with the issue, and use it to speak to the larger issue of harassment.

> > They would've protected them, if they did not escalate the situation beyond saving. They would've protected them if they did not take matters into their own hands and continue harassing their customers, repeatedly.

>

> MO can say anything about protecting his employees all he wants, but the truth is would they actually do it, and exactly what can they do to someone that's not in this country. Oh, they can pull his partner status and ban his accounts, but would that solve anything? Not at all, and I have this huge problem with the whole following the chain of command when dealing with either internal problems or external problems. In my opinion the first part of that chain of command is having the two parties involved hash it out amongst themselves, then if they can't resolve their differences you can start escalating starting with frontline supervisors and moving up the chain until you find a level that can solve the problem...and that goes for everything from sexual harrassment/misconduct all the way to bullying.

>

> As for the the TotalBiscuit comment, really all she said was, to paraphrase, that now he's no longer around to cause harm to anyone else. Do we want to deny that he caused harm to a lot of people? Because if you want to deny he did, then you've been living under a rock buried deep beneath the earth.

 

ANET has no control over twitter or reddit postings, but yeah if there are players they know who are acting and projecting the same kind of behaviour then they can ban the accounts, but its for reddit and twitter to handle people that only wish harass, flame and outright troll for effect. That is not a fault of ANET that is just how it is and it works both ways of course, only difference is ANET do tend to try to filter out much of that kind of thing.

 

I think you missed the part where those individuals got the meeting to hash it out.. unless of course your just trying to cherry pick from what every single gamerjourno has, since this exploded.. take one side of the argument and "it must be right"...

 

ANET and NCSoft are not some 2 bit garden shed startups, they are multi million dollar businesses and as such they have structure and a chain of command backed by legal process /protocols, which absolutely would of been followed. Both of the devs would of had that opportunity to "hash it out", but they either blew it or declined.. do we know if there was previous form that was factored in before any decision was made. Either way, when someone acts like JP did, that alone would of been good reason to initiate immediate removal for gross misconduct / bringing the company into disrepute... and at some point following that morning, when everything was looked at, discussed and considered, MO made a business decision to fire them both... because ya know.. he had the backs of his entire workforce to cover from the potential harm this debacle could of caused to the business as a whole, not just a couple of employees who failed to uphold their standards and values.

 

JP has since gone away and doubled down on her malice whilst strangely enough PF has acted much more how I would of expected someone of his experience to act.. by saying very little at all and keeping the internal details private, shame JP can't fathom that it, as it only serves to get her noticed for all the wrong reasons .. ooh yeah lest we forget of course, all those recruiters are calling her.

 

Yeah and ya know why.. cos because she is just another possible paycheck for them, nothing more than that. Hopefully it will work out for her, because those same recruiters tend to move onto other candidates pretty quickly if there is no paycheck forthcoming for them to cash.

 

 

 

As for her Total Biscuit comment, it merely acted to paint her in the same light as your perceived image of TB.. except someone had actually, ya know died and left a young family behind.. nothing like dancing on someone's grave to get your ego charged for the day and add a few "look at me" moments to boost her number of twitter followers...Then again I think all she really seeks to do is put herself centre stag to feed her own ego, whilst holding the martyrdom flag... thankfully ANET were able to see through it in time before things had even greater potential to turn really ugly.

[morrolan.9608]

> @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> I think you missed the part where those individuals got the meeting to hash it out.. unless of course your just trying to cherry pick from what every single gamerjourno has, since this exploded.. take one side of the argument and "it must be right"...

 

If she was lying about the meeting then anet would want to correct that and they haven't. Until they do that we have only what Price said and it doesn't sound unreasonable, MOB was clearly mad and made a decision based on emotion.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"morrolan.9608" said:

> > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > I think you missed the part where those individuals got the meeting to hash it out.. unless of course your just trying to cherry pick from what every single gamerjourno has, since this exploded.. take one side of the argument and "it must be right"...

>

> If she was lying about the meeting then anet would want to correct that and they haven't. Until they do that we have only what Price said and it doesn't sound unreasonable, MOB was clearly mad and made a decision based on emotion.

 

Pretty sure he already posted out to contradict that... ANET and MO were aware of the issue during the holiday.. they had already discussed and considered the damage being caused and the individuals were called into meetings the next working day. As MO said its never nice to fire someone, but unfortunately there was due cause and absolutely would of followed due process. What your reading through those cherry picked gamerjourno snips is just a continuation of JP's "I am the victim", "its not my fault" doubling down because she is simply unable or unwilling to self reflect and take responsibility for her actions.. which lest we forget, got someone else tangled up in her absurdity and fired as well.

To make out she was fired based on nothing but one person's emotion is just silly season, that isn't how business works .. yeahh sure there was emotion on steroids all around the interweebs and likely within ANET, but yeah, NO that is not what got them both fired, unless you were there and know the whole story - which I am guessing you weren't and don't.

[morrolan.9608]

> @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > @"morrolan.9608" said:

> > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > I think you missed the part where those individuals got the meeting to hash it out.. unless of course your just trying to cherry pick from what every single gamerjourno has, since this exploded.. take one side of the argument and "it must be right"...

> >

> > If she was lying about the meeting then anet would want to correct that and they haven't. Until they do that we have only what Price said and it doesn't sound unreasonable, MOB was clearly mad and made a decision based on emotion.

>

> Pretty sure he already posted out to contradict that... ANET and MO were aware of the issue during the holiday.. they had already discussed and considered the damage being caused and the individuals were called into meetings the next working day. As MO said its never nice to fire someone, but unfortunately there was due cause and absolutely would of followed due process. What your reading through those cherry picked gamerjourno snips is just a continuation of JP's "I am the victim", "its not my fault" doubling down because she is simply unable or unwilling to self reflect and take responsibility for her actions.. which lest we forget, got someone else tangled up in her absurdity and fired as well.

 

You stated that JP and PF would have had the opportunity to 'hash it out' implying that they may not have been fired. In fact what you quote above from MOBs statement further verfiies that wasn't the case as JP said. She was not given any chance to 'hash it out'.

[Loli Ruri.8307]

> @"juhani.5361" said:

> > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said:

> > > @"juhani.5361" said:

> > > > @"Zabi Zabi.3561" said:

> > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > > There's only one winner in this situation:

> > > > >

> > > > > + Not Ms. Price: She lost her job, which might have added to her stress.

> > > > > + Not Mr. Fries: He lost his job which he seems to have valued.

> > > > > + Not ANet management: at best they've acted in the way that was less of a loss, but no matter what they did, some group was going to be unhappy with them.

> > > > > + Not ANet staff: this kind of situation is going to have repercussions and effect staff's sense of camaraderie.

> > > > > + Not Deroir: though by comparison, his loss is almost not worth mentioning, this situation has got to leave a bad taste in the mouth.

> > > > > + Not the GW2 community: some are satisfied with ANet's reaction, some are not, but the affair has highlighted the divides between us more than any other interaction I've followed.

> > > > >

> > > > > The winner? The winner is people who like watching things burn.

> > > > >

> > > > > That means we all lost.

> > > >

> > > > Price would have been hazardous to the company if she was kept around and kept insulting the PLAYER BASE OF THE GAME AND COMPANY SHE WORKED FOR!

> > > >

> > > > Anet did the right thing by putting the COMMUNITY OF THE GAME FIRST before TOXIC EMPLOYEES!

> > > >

> > > > So the true winners are Anet, and the Community.

> > > >

> > > > Some will have disagreeing opinions and will probably leave the game HOWEVER! I have noticed more new players coming in and that's a good thing!

> > >

> > > I'm a part of the community, and I definitely _don't_feel like this is a win. And, honestly, this whole situation is a setback for women in the gaming industry-- not to mention in society as a whole. Anet's actions were necessary, but they're nothing to be celebrated. All of this brigading and mob mentality does nothing but degrade the GW2 community.

> > How does removing a terrible person make it a setback for women in the gaming industry? I'm in the gaming industry, and I don't feel a setback at all. Wat? XD

>

> Been debating about answering this, since it taps into a lot of personal experience I'd rather forget. Reading a lot of the comments puts me back a good decade, with all the emotions and frustrations I felt as a female student in various IT classrooms around the Silicon Valley. I got singled out a few times, including one encounter with a professor I ended up taking to the dean, met with constant skepticism from male students, etc. You could walk into that environment as a complete clueless male noob who didn't know where the on button was and not be met with the same kind of condescension you'd get as a hardcore computer hobbyist with a server certification under her belt. I'm pretty laid back and easy-going, so I'd usually post stellar grades, help others with labs, etc. and "earn" respect by being better than most. But it really wears on you after a while. I got sick of it and quit, eventually. I can't imagine what dealing with that professionally would have been like.

>

> I think any woman in the tech and gaming industry has to have a steel spine, just like any man becoming an elementary school teacher or a nurse. I really don't. And I can imagine, knowing how I get, that I'd probably explode under the stress like JP may have.

>

> Reading the press out of this-- which is what most people in the industry are going to do-- would definitely deter me from wanting to enter the industry. Knowing that I could be targeted by internet mobs because a friend of mine exploded under such pressures would deter me from remaining in the industry. <--Been reading that a few female devs who knew JP have been bullied by the mobs. This whole scenario has a chilling effect on women's participation both now and in the future.

>

> Like I said before-- I think the firing decision was the right one. But none of the side-effects are good or beneficial in the long run. It's a titanic mess that's only getting worse.

This was a good read. But the reality is, I don't get the same experience. Maybe it's different here. But as a woman, I just don't get people giving me crap just for being a woman. In fact, I have learned to talk their language, and how to present myself in a manner that does not detract. Maybe it's because I don't expect the world to change for me, but for me to fit in. If somebody is giving me crap tho, I will call it out, but not to their face, but to HR, or to my boss. Because it's their job to handle those who don't want to work as a part of a team. Griping goes up, not down.

[Haleydawn.3764]

> @"morrolan.9608" said:

> > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > @"morrolan.9608" said:

> > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > I think you missed the part where those individuals got the meeting to hash it out.. unless of course your just trying to cherry pick from what every single gamerjourno has, since this exploded.. take one side of the argument and "it must be right"...

> > >

> > > If she was lying about the meeting then anet would want to correct that and they haven't. Until they do that we have only what Price said and it doesn't sound unreasonable, MOB was clearly mad and made a decision based on emotion.

> >

> > Pretty sure he already posted out to contradict that... ANET and MO were aware of the issue during the holiday.. they had already discussed and considered the damage being caused and the individuals were called into meetings the next working day. As MO said its never nice to fire someone, but unfortunately there was due cause and absolutely would of followed due process. What your reading through those cherry picked gamerjourno snips is just a continuation of JP's "I am the victim", "its not my fault" doubling down because she is simply unable or unwilling to self reflect and take responsibility for her actions.. which lest we forget, got someone else tangled up in her absurdity and fired as well.

>

> You stated that JP and PF would have had the opportunity to 'hash it out' implying that they may not have been fired. In fact what you quote above from MOBs statement further verfiies that wasn't the case as JP said. She was not given any chance to 'hash it out'.

 

She could have not exacerbated the initial interaction. Instead she continued the tirade. It’s one thing being snippy (“thanks for telling me what we do internally, my dude”), but it’s another level when you continue the altercation.

[Bombadil.9285]

> @"Mike O Brien.4613" said:

> Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company.

>

> I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you.

>

> Mo

 

Thank you, I admire that you stood in for what was right. It probably was not an easy decision since you anticipated the way some of the media would report it, but still, your company stood still and defended reason.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"morrolan.9608" said:

> > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > @"morrolan.9608" said:

> > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > > > I think you missed the part where those individuals got the meeting to hash it out.. unless of course your just trying to cherry pick from what every single gamerjourno has, since this exploded.. take one side of the argument and "it must be right"...

> > >

> > > If she was lying about the meeting then anet would want to correct that and they haven't. Until they do that we have only what Price said and it doesn't sound unreasonable, MOB was clearly mad and made a decision based on emotion.

> >

> > Pretty sure he already posted out to contradict that... ANET and MO were aware of the issue during the holiday.. they had already discussed and considered the damage being caused and the individuals were called into meetings the next working day. As MO said its never nice to fire someone, but unfortunately there was due cause and absolutely would of followed due process. What your reading through those cherry picked gamerjourno snips is just a continuation of JP's "I am the victim", "its not my fault" doubling down because she is simply unable or unwilling to self reflect and take responsibility for her actions.. which lest we forget, got someone else tangled up in her absurdity and fired as well.

>

> You stated that JP and PF would have had the opportunity to 'hash it out' implying that they may not have been fired. In fact what you quote above from MOBs statement further verfiies that wasn't the case as JP said. She was not given any chance to 'hash it out'.

 

Like I said.. you have nothing to go on other than a few cherry picked words of someone playing the victim and clearly unwilling to take responsibility for her actions.. I have my own take on how events went down that morning, but I will keep that to myself.. kind of like how PF is doing, which is what most professional people would do in this instance, not go bad mouthing to the local interweebs gaming press to keep the victim card in play.

There are legitimate processes set in place and a whole lot of legal do's and don'ts to consider before handing out instant dismissals and you, I or anyone other than those involved have no idea what actually took place, what other factors came into play and what else may ensue from this. It is quite possible that ANET had already made their mind up prior to the meeting, for sure.. that is what often happens when a case for gross misconduct or the like occurs, but unless you have all the facts its just heresay.

Fact JP got a meeting that morning, things were said and decisions made, that's all we know.. other than a few words like "he basically just vented …". Do you really think she entered the room MO vented and nothing else was said by JP, who has no issue saying everything and anything she likes when a fan, a member of the games community, a content partner attempts to engage in meaningful dialogue and offer a slight disagreement to her opinions... where was her "truth to power" then.. nah doesn't add up. She had that meeting, discussion occurred and she either refused to listen and take responsibility for her actions or it's possible she just finally closed up and said nothing... either way I would agree that perhaps her fate was already sealed and it was just a case of following due process with her.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"morrolan.9608" said:

> > @"juhani.5361" said:

> > Like I said before-- I think the firing decision was the right one. But none of the side-effects are good or beneficial in the long run. It's a titanic mess that's only getting worse.

>

> There's already some direct, poor side effects that have come about due to the firings emboldening those who want to harass women in the gaming industry. I've just read twitter chains from 2 female devs. One of them had someone write to her boss spinning a story about her being toxic and how she should be fired. The other actually had someone create a change.org petition for exactly the same reason.

>

> I really hope Mike O'Brien sees what happening and reflects on what he might have done better.

>

 

Are you for real? There were men that were fired for their twitter comments too you know. They didn't even reach the gaming media. I'm gonna say this again for emphasis:

A man gets fired for his twitter comments: nobody cares

A woman gets fired for her twitter comments: it's the end of the world for women in the gaming industry

 

This is hypocrisy at the highest level. The narrative of this entire firing incident has changed from an **employee** being fired to a **woman** being fired. I guess you and the so called gaming press love to twist it that way because it suits your agenda.

 

I'm wondering about those 2 female devs, are they as toxic, sexist and unprofessional as Jessica Price?

Btw, there was a charge.org petition to get a man fired: https://www.change.org/p/electronic-arts-fire-david-crooks-from-bioware-for-his-blatant-unprofessionalism

 

Stop spinning this around as being harassment against women and that MOs decision makes harassment against women worse or something. Same things happening to these women you are talking about happened to men too. But who cared about that then right?

[juhani.5361]

> @"Loli Ruri.8307" said:

> > @"juhani.5361" said:

> > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said:

> > > > @"juhani.5361" said:

> > > > > @"Zabi Zabi.3561" said:

> > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > > > There's only one winner in this situation:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > + Not Ms. Price: She lost her job, which might have added to her stress.

> > > > > > + Not Mr. Fries: He lost his job which he seems to have valued.

> > > > > > + Not ANet management: at best they've acted in the way that was less of a loss, but no matter what they did, some group was going to be unhappy with them.

> > > > > > + Not ANet staff: this kind of situation is going to have repercussions and effect staff's sense of camaraderie.

> > > > > > + Not Deroir: though by comparison, his loss is almost not worth mentioning, this situation has got to leave a bad taste in the mouth.

> > > > > > + Not the GW2 community: some are satisfied with ANet's reaction, some are not, but the affair has highlighted the divides between us more than any other interaction I've followed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The winner? The winner is people who like watching things burn.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That means we all lost.

> > > > >

> > > > > Price would have been hazardous to the company if she was kept around and kept insulting the PLAYER BASE OF THE GAME AND COMPANY SHE WORKED FOR!

> > > > >

> > > > > Anet did the right thing by putting the COMMUNITY OF THE GAME FIRST before TOXIC EMPLOYEES!

> > > > >

> > > > > So the true winners are Anet, and the Community.

> > > > >

> > > > > Some will have disagreeing opinions and will probably leave the game HOWEVER! I have noticed more new players coming in and that's a good thing!

> > > >

> > > > I'm a part of the community, and I definitely _don't_feel like this is a win. And, honestly, this whole situation is a setback for women in the gaming industry-- not to mention in society as a whole. Anet's actions were necessary, but they're nothing to be celebrated. All of this brigading and mob mentality does nothing but degrade the GW2 community.

> > > How does removing a terrible person make it a setback for women in the gaming industry? I'm in the gaming industry, and I don't feel a setback at all. Wat? XD

> >

> > Been debating about answering this, since it taps into a lot of personal experience I'd rather forget. Reading a lot of the comments puts me back a good decade, with all the emotions and frustrations I felt as a female student in various IT classrooms around the Silicon Valley. I got singled out a few times, including one encounter with a professor I ended up taking to the dean, met with constant skepticism from male students, etc. You could walk into that environment as a complete clueless male noob who didn't know where the on button was and not be met with the same kind of condescension you'd get as a hardcore computer hobbyist with a server certification under her belt. I'm pretty laid back and easy-going, so I'd usually post stellar grades, help others with labs, etc. and "earn" respect by being better than most. But it really wears on you after a while. I got sick of it and quit, eventually. I can't imagine what dealing with that professionally would have been like.

> >

> > I think any woman in the tech and gaming industry has to have a steel spine, just like any man becoming an elementary school teacher or a nurse. I really don't. And I can imagine, knowing how I get, that I'd probably explode under the stress like JP may have.

> >

> > Reading the press out of this-- which is what most people in the industry are going to do-- would definitely deter me from wanting to enter the industry. Knowing that I could be targeted by internet mobs because a friend of mine exploded under such pressures would deter me from remaining in the industry. <--Been reading that a few female devs who knew JP have been bullied by the mobs. This whole scenario has a chilling effect on women's participation both now and in the future.

> >

> > Like I said before-- I think the firing decision was the right one. But none of the side-effects are good or beneficial in the long run. It's a titanic mess that's only getting worse.

> This was a good read. But the reality is, I don't get the same experience. Maybe it's different here. But as a woman, I just don't get people giving me crap just for being a woman. In fact, I have learned to talk their language, and how to present myself in a manner that does not detract. Maybe it's because I don't expect the world to change for me, but for me to fit in. If somebody is giving me crap tho, I will call it out, but not to their face, but to HR, or to my boss. Because it's their job to handle those who don't want to work as a part of a team. Griping goes up, not down.

 

Sorry if I'm crossing boundaries, but are you in the United States?

[Nemmar.8491]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> These things are never in a vacuum i realty think there might be something wrong with anet and how they feel about there player-base.

 

I can only hope those were Jessica's antics. If there are any issues, i urge those employees to go talk to the company about it, rather than have explosive reactions on twitter. Honestly, the Guild wars community is actually one of the best around. Of course, in all communities there are also jerks. But it is not fair to lash out on the good ones because of the rotten apples. There's more good than bad, and if they think not, they should visit the mmo-champ forums and see how toxic a community can be to it's developers. That community also has it's rotten apples, but they are way more vocal and hate on absolutely everything that Blizzard devs do. It is ridiculous. Complete hive of scum and villainy. But obviously they are only a portion of the community.

 

Anyways, i don't think it's fair to let Jessica cast her dark web on the other employees. I will assume they are happy to engage with the community and if they are not to seek help from the company on how to best address the situation. Actually Jessica herself said 90% of the community is good, wich is why it's the more puzzling why she would go off at someone that was respectful. But alas...

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"morrolan.9608" said:

> > @"juhani.5361" said:

> > Like I said before-- I think the firing decision was the right one. But none of the side-effects are good or beneficial in the long run. It's a titanic mess that's only getting worse.

>

> There's already some direct, poor side effects that have come about due to the firings emboldening those who want to harass women in the gaming industry. I've just read twitter chains from 2 female devs. One of them had someone write to her boss spinning a story about her being toxic and how she should be fired. The other actually had someone create a change.org petition for exactly the same reason.

>

> I really hope Mike O'Brien sees what happening and reflects on what he might have done better.

>

 

And there in lies your problem.. you are using twitter and such as your source of fact.

You have nothing to go on other than a few tweets without evening knowing the slightest ion particle of what the facts are with those individuals, the circumstances and what is their own employers are doing.

If someone had written something to me regarding one of my empoyee's behaviour and wanted them fired do you really think I would put that back to the individual so that it can be broadcast to the world.. you investigate and then discuss any the issue (if any) with the individual. Or would you just read the request call the individual in and say "hey Freda, look at this letter, someone's mad, her take this its really yours shall I fire you cos Jo Bloggs thinks your a toxic woman"... sorry it takes a bit more than that and maybe, just maybe its the tweet you read that's doing the spinning here. If not then it's a pretty unprofessional way to conduct yourself putting such important info on a twitter feed and open yourself up for an even bigger sh..storm of abuse... kinda like ripping the whole roof off the barn not just opening a door don't ya think.

[Drogot.4629]

> @"Mike O Brien.4613" said:

> Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company.

>

> I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you.

>

> Mo

 

**I do not support this. **

 

I think to fire someone over such a minor infraction and then giving such a non-Statement is very unprofessional by MO

 

I don't want to discuss this, as this whole situation makes me sick to my stomach. But I still wanted to say that I do not support this.

[morrolan.9608]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"morrolan.9608" said:

> > There's already some direct, poor side effects that have come about due to the firings emboldening those who want to harass women in the gaming industry. I've just read twitter chains from 2 female devs. One of them had someone write to her boss spinning a story about her being toxic and how she should be fired. The other actually had someone create a change.org petition for exactly the same reason.

> >

> > I really hope Mike O'Brien sees what happening and reflects on what he might have done better.

> >

>

> Are you for real? There were men that were fired for their twitter comments too you know. They didn't even reach the gaming media. I'm gonna say this again for emphasis:

> A man gets fired for his twitter comments: nobody cares

> A woman gets fired for her twitter comments: it's the end of the world for women in the gaming industry

>

> This is hypocrisy at the highest level. The narrative of this entire firing incident has changed from an **employee** being fired to a **woman** being fired. I guess you and the so called gaming press love to twist it that way because it suits your agenda.

 

Any harassment is obviously bad, so no hypocrisy from me, but men don't tend to get harassed simply because they are men. The whole gamergate movement was about harassing prominent game devs simply because they were women. And indeed my main issue in all this actually started with Peter Fries being fired not Price. With the whole issue being overtaken by alt right type agitators it became clear how much of a mistake O'Brien made.

 

> @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > @"morrolan.9608" said:

> > There's already some direct, poor side effects that have come about due to the firings emboldening those who want to harass women in the gaming industry. I've just read twitter chains from 2 female devs. One of them had someone write to her boss spinning a story about her being toxic and how she should be fired. The other actually had someone create a change.org petition for exactly the same reason.

> >

> > I really hope Mike O'Brien sees what happening and reflects on what he might have done better.

> >

>

> And there in lies your problem.. you are using twitter and such as your source of fact.

> You have nothing to go on other than a few tweets without evening knowing the slightest ion particle of what the facts are with those individuals, the circumstances and what is their own employers are doing.

 

Of course they are lying /s. But it happens that the company of one of them actually put out a statement as I stated in another thread:

 

https://twitter.com/OPXSpace/status/1016873103840796672/photo/1

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"morrolan.9608" said:

> Any harassment is obviously bad, so no hypocrisy from me, but men don't tend to get harassed simply because they are men. The whole kitten movement was about harassing prominent game devs simply because they were women. And indeed my main issue in all this actually started with Peter Fries being fired not Price. With the whole issue being overtaken by alt right type agitators it became clear how much of a mistake O'Brien made.

 

So you are saying that JP was harassed just because she is a woman and not because she was being toxic? What does this "movement" you are talking about has to do with JP getting fired? She wasn't harassed because she was a woman, she harassed OTHERS. She was fired because of her behavior alone, her being a woman has nothing to do with it, don't mistake past "movements" with what happened here as they are irrelevant. Peter Fries was also fired, but the majority of posters don't seem to care about it, and especially the gaming media don't give a damn about Peter Fries being fired, they only care about the **woman** that got fired to push their agenda. Other male developers also got fired for similar reasons and again nobody cared. The reason was bullying and toxic behavior, being a man or a woman is completely irrelevant.

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"morrolan.9608" said:

> Any harassment is obviously bad, so no hypocrisy from me, but men don't tend to get harassed simply because they are men.

They don't tend to be harassed/targeted simply because they are men.

Right.

How did this whole thing start again?

Who's being accused of being condescending by just about every gaming media?

 

 

[Loli Ruri.8307]

> @"juhani.5361" said:

> > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said:

> > > @"juhani.5361" said:

> > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said:

> > > > > @"juhani.5361" said:

> > > > > > @"Zabi Zabi.3561" said:

> > > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > > > > There's only one winner in this situation:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > + Not Ms. Price: She lost her job, which might have added to her stress.

> > > > > > > + Not Mr. Fries: He lost his job which he seems to have valued.

> > > > > > > + Not ANet management: at best they've acted in the way that was less of a loss, but no matter what they did, some group was going to be unhappy with them.

> > > > > > > + Not ANet staff: this kind of situation is going to have repercussions and effect staff's sense of camaraderie.

> > > > > > > + Not Deroir: though by comparison, his loss is almost not worth mentioning, this situation has got to leave a bad taste in the mouth.

> > > > > > > + Not the GW2 community: some are satisfied with ANet's reaction, some are not, but the affair has highlighted the divides between us more than any other interaction I've followed.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The winner? The winner is people who like watching things burn.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > That means we all lost.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Price would have been hazardous to the company if she was kept around and kept insulting the PLAYER BASE OF THE GAME AND COMPANY SHE WORKED FOR!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Anet did the right thing by putting the COMMUNITY OF THE GAME FIRST before TOXIC EMPLOYEES!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So the true winners are Anet, and the Community.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Some will have disagreeing opinions and will probably leave the game HOWEVER! I have noticed more new players coming in and that's a good thing!

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm a part of the community, and I definitely _don't_feel like this is a win. And, honestly, this whole situation is a setback for women in the gaming industry-- not to mention in society as a whole. Anet's actions were necessary, but they're nothing to be celebrated. All of this brigading and mob mentality does nothing but degrade the GW2 community.

> > > > How does removing a terrible person make it a setback for women in the gaming industry? I'm in the gaming industry, and I don't feel a setback at all. Wat? XD

> > >

> > > Been debating about answering this, since it taps into a lot of personal experience I'd rather forget. Reading a lot of the comments puts me back a good decade, with all the emotions and frustrations I felt as a female student in various IT classrooms around the Silicon Valley. I got singled out a few times, including one encounter with a professor I ended up taking to the dean, met with constant skepticism from male students, etc. You could walk into that environment as a complete clueless male noob who didn't know where the on button was and not be met with the same kind of condescension you'd get as a hardcore computer hobbyist with a server certification under her belt. I'm pretty laid back and easy-going, so I'd usually post stellar grades, help others with labs, etc. and "earn" respect by being better than most. But it really wears on you after a while. I got sick of it and quit, eventually. I can't imagine what dealing with that professionally would have been like.

> > >

> > > I think any woman in the tech and gaming industry has to have a steel spine, just like any man becoming an elementary school teacher or a nurse. I really don't. And I can imagine, knowing how I get, that I'd probably explode under the stress like JP may have.

> > >

> > > Reading the press out of this-- which is what most people in the industry are going to do-- would definitely deter me from wanting to enter the industry. Knowing that I could be targeted by internet mobs because a friend of mine exploded under such pressures would deter me from remaining in the industry. <--Been reading that a few female devs who knew JP have been bullied by the mobs. This whole scenario has a chilling effect on women's participation both now and in the future.

> > >

> > > Like I said before-- I think the firing decision was the right one. But none of the side-effects are good or beneficial in the long run. It's a titanic mess that's only getting worse.

> > This was a good read. But the reality is, I don't get the same experience. Maybe it's different here. But as a woman, I just don't get people giving me crap just for being a woman. In fact, I have learned to talk their language, and how to present myself in a manner that does not detract. Maybe it's because I don't expect the world to change for me, but for me to fit in. If somebody is giving me crap tho, I will call it out, but not to their face, but to HR, or to my boss. Because it's their job to handle those who don't want to work as a part of a team. Griping goes up, not down.

>

> Sorry if I'm crossing boundaries, but are you in the United States?

Australia. Are you saying there is a cultural difference? Because around here, if you do stupid crap, they call you out for what you did.

[Loli Ruri.8307]

> @"Drogot.4629" said:

> > @"Mike O Brien.4613" said:

> > Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company.

> >

> > I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you.

> >

> > Mo

>

> **I do not support this. **

>

> I think to fire someone over such a minor infraction and then giving such a non-Statement is very unprofessional by MO

>

> I don't want to discuss this, as this whole situation makes me sick to my stomach. But I still wanted to say that I do not support this.

I do. She was setting a precedence that the community was not important, that people being polite should be afraid of talking to any developer in a public place, that is talking about their job. And really, celebrating somebody's death from cancer, to be honest, I would have fired her for that. She held no remorse, thinks she is still in the right, and doesn't get it. Blames everybody else, even when a majority of people, even people I have shown this to, think she was totally wrong and that her actions were uncalled for. This is really up there with "I'm heading to the land of aids". You don't do that with the company name on your shoulders.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Drogot.4629" said:

> > @"Mike O Brien.4613" said:

> > Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company.

> >

> > I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you.

> >

> > Mo

>

> **I do not support this. **

>

> I think to fire someone over such a minor infraction and then giving such a non-Statement is very unprofessional by MO

>

> I don't want to discuss this, as this whole situation makes me sick to my stomach. But I still wanted to say that I do not support this.

 

Harassing and attacking customers of your buisness is a minor infraction now? In what world? Its exactly the kind of behaviour that gets people fired.

 

We can all get snappy sometimes and I still wonder what would have happened if she had simply apologized to Deroir for publicly deriding him and left it at that, but its most definetly **not** a minor infraction.

 

MO has a longer response I saw posted on Polygon if you want to check it put, but the incredibly biased article is ridiculous otherwise. I advice taking a look on youtube and Yongyea videos on this.