Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Healix.5819" said: > She's made some more comments on twitter. It's pretty much what you'd expect, like she did nothing wrong and blames ArenaNet, claiming they're harassing her by staying silent and letting this continue. She didn't like how MO credited her only for the 1 scene, so... > > Apparently she was in charge of season 4 and influenced all of it. She starts out saying everything is done by teams, but she led meetings and all dialogue went through her, following with "Everything you've seen of the story so far this season is my work, and you're going to be seeing my work in it for a long time." She goes on to say that a lot of the work we'll be seeing is led by women and it'll be the best content GW2 has ever produced because of it. Just more proof that this person likes to steer the narrative, double down without a tad of remorse for how she acted, how she also got another dev caught up in it and fired.. whilst still incapable of taking feedback and criticism for it all.. class act imo… its a shame though that she didn't consider taking the kind of action that she has in that latest tweet, after posting out her 25 piece pro tips SA.. so maybe she has learned something.. where the ignore and block buttons are. I bet she is biting her lip real bad though, I bet there is a superheated steam vent just rattling to explode on some of those replies, I bet her phone comes back from vacation ever so slightly screen burneddue to constant twitter checking... or perhaps from all those recruiters who have been waiting patiently in line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrolan.9608 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > @"Healix.5819" said: > > She's made some more comments on twitter. It's pretty much what you'd expect, like she did nothing wrong and blames ArenaNet, claiming they're harassing her by staying silent and letting this continue. She didn't like how MO credited her only for the 1 scene, so... > > > > Apparently she was in charge of season 4 and influenced all of it. She starts out saying everything is done by teams, but she led meetings and all dialogue went through her, following with "Everything you've seen of the story so far this season is my work, and you're going to be seeing my work in it for a long time." She goes on to say that a lot of the work we'll be seeing is led by women and it'll be the best content GW2 has ever produced because of it. > > Just more proof that this person likes to steer the narrative, double down without a tad of remorse for how she acted, how she also got another dev caught up in it and fired.. whilst still incapable of taking feedback and criticism for it all.. class act imo… its a shame though that she didn't consider taking the kind of action that she has in that latest tweet, after posting out her 25 piece pro tips SA.. so maybe she has learned something.. where the ignore and block buttons are. Do you really expect her to be nice after she was fired and in the manner it was done? I sure as hell wouldn't be. As for what she did on LS4 she prefaced it by saying it was a team achievement and if anything she said was incorrect well others at anet are free to disagree with her. TBH I find LS4 to be worse than LS3 overall which was worse than LS2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > > @"Zabi Zabi.3561" said: > > > > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > > > > > > There's only one winner in this situation: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > + Not Ms. Price: She lost her job, which might have added to her stress. > > > > > > > > + Not Mr. Fries: He lost his job which he seems to have valued. > > > > > > > > + Not ANet management: at best they've acted in the way that was less of a loss, but no matter what they did, some group was going to be unhappy with them. > > > > > > > > + Not ANet staff: this kind of situation is going to have repercussions and effect staff's sense of camaraderie. > > > > > > > > + Not Deroir: though by comparison, his loss is almost not worth mentioning, this situation has got to leave a bad taste in the mouth. > > > > > > > > + Not the GW2 community: some are satisfied with ANet's reaction, some are not, but the affair has highlighted the divides between us more than any other interaction I've followed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The winner? The winner is people who like watching things burn. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That means we all lost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Price would have been hazardous to the company if she was kept around and kept insulting the PLAYER BASE OF THE GAME AND COMPANY SHE WORKED FOR! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet did the right thing by putting the COMMUNITY OF THE GAME FIRST before TOXIC EMPLOYEES! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So the true winners are Anet, and the Community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some will have disagreeing opinions and will probably leave the game HOWEVER! I have noticed more new players coming in and that's a good thing! > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm a part of the community, and I definitely _don't_feel like this is a win. And, honestly, this whole situation is a setback for women in the gaming industry-- not to mention in society as a whole. Anet's actions were necessary, but they're nothing to be celebrated. All of this brigading and mob mentality does nothing but degrade the GW2 community. > > > > > How does removing a terrible person make it a setback for women in the gaming industry? I'm in the gaming industry, and I don't feel a setback at all. Wat? XD > > > > > > > > Been debating about answering this, since it taps into a lot of personal experience I'd rather forget. Reading a lot of the comments puts me back a good decade, with all the emotions and frustrations I felt as a female student in various IT classrooms around the Silicon Valley. I got singled out a few times, including one encounter with a professor I ended up taking to the dean, met with constant skepticism from male students, etc. You could walk into that environment as a complete clueless male noob who didn't know where the on button was and not be met with the same kind of condescension you'd get as a hardcore computer hobbyist with a server certification under her belt. I'm pretty laid back and easy-going, so I'd usually post stellar grades, help others with labs, etc. and "earn" respect by being better than most. But it really wears on you after a while. I got sick of it and quit, eventually. I can't imagine what dealing with that professionally would have been like. > > > > > > > > I think any woman in the tech and gaming industry has to have a steel spine, just like any man becoming an elementary school teacher or a nurse. I really don't. And I can imagine, knowing how I get, that I'd probably explode under the stress like JP may have. > > > > > > > > Reading the press out of this-- which is what most people in the industry are going to do-- would definitely deter me from wanting to enter the industry. Knowing that I could be targeted by internet mobs because a friend of mine exploded under such pressures would deter me from remaining in the industry. <--Been reading that a few female devs who knew JP have been bullied by the mobs. This whole scenario has a chilling effect on women's participation both now and in the future. > > > > > > > > Like I said before-- I think the firing decision was the right one. But none of the side-effects are good or beneficial in the long run. It's a titanic mess that's only getting worse. > > > This was a good read. But the reality is, I don't get the same experience. Maybe it's different here. But as a woman, I just don't get people giving me crap just for being a woman. In fact, I have learned to talk their language, and how to present myself in a manner that does not detract. Maybe it's because I don't expect the world to change for me, but for me to fit in. If somebody is giving me crap tho, I will call it out, but not to their face, but to HR, or to my boss. Because it's their job to handle those who don't want to work as a part of a team. Griping goes up, not down. > > > > Let's see here...first off, you shouldn't have to fit in, but neither should the world have to change for you...there has to be give and take on both sides to reach a middle ground. I'm also curious to know if when you do bring something up to HR or to your boss, do they investigate first and then offer solutions; or do they set up a meeting between you and the alleged harasser so you can sit down and take it over between yourselves to see if you can come up with your own solution? Because honestly, that's the way it should start, you start with a peer to peer meeting between the harasser and the harassee, if nothing can be worked out,, then you start moving up the ladder, first with your immediate superior...with an HR representative present at all time, but they're not there to say or do anything except observe and take notes. > > Irs not what I would do for sure.. If I had such a serious complaint happen internally I wouldn't want either party sat in a room left to discuss > I would firstly investigate if there is anything of merit or just some redditor troll sounding off. If the claim has merit and there are definite grounds to investigate then that is what is done and all parties placed apart, perhaps with both placed on temporary while its happening.. when all the facts are known and all the boxes are ticked then a decision on how to move forward will be debated by the business leadership, HR, legal. > Put yourself in the shoes of the man or women if such claims are real and true.. how would you feel about sitting in a room for discussion with the other party.. no that is not how to handle it imo, in fact it could well serve to exacerbate the problem in other serious ways... any mediation should always be undertaken after the facts are known and all parties concerned have been briefed individually. Even if mediation is accepted by both parties, it should be carried out under proper senior management/HR or qualified / legal supervision imo. When the cases aren't so clear cut. I once caught an employee stealing. Red-handed. There was no defense possible because there was exactly one cashier that day and she rang up a refund I didn't authorize and the supposedly refunded item wasn't anywhere in the store. It filled in some blanks that I'd overlooked in previous weeks that seemed off to me. I fired her on the spot. There was no investigation because she was caught red-handed. In this instance, the entire display is it's own evidence. Mike is perfectly capable of reading a twitter feed and making a decision though you can bet he probably did contact legal before implementing the decision. If I were overtly aggressive to a customer of my company even in off hours, I'd expect some sort of discipline. This isn't some marginal situation. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people who read the entire conversation know everything they need to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"dontlook.1823" said: > Annnnnnnd this video was made by two privileged white males asking if a women was talking appropriately and people are still saying this isn't sexist dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot........................... Okay, GW2 good-bye. "Annnnnnnd this video was made by two privileged white males" "people are still saying this isn't sexist" Yes. Dot dot dot indeed. Maybe practice what you preach? Unless you don't realize how much your comment is actually sexist. Double standard maybe a bit -too- obvious right here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 My takeaways at this point: + The gaming "media" coverage, at least the ones I've looked at (most of the one's linked here), are editorials, opinion pieces, not responsible reporting. They're not reporting facts without making value judgments. Responsible reporting would stick to facts, and let the readers make up their own minds. + You need a public platform if your intent is to speak out on social issues. + If you're on a public platform, it's not really "yours." + Attempting to shame others is a tactic that is all too commonly used (JP is but one of many in this issue to do so). + Everyone has an opinion, and a lot of us want to let ours be known. + A lot of people are going to make up their minds based on limited or incorrect information. + Critical thinking is in short supply. + It's better to look critically at statements that serve someone's agenda than to accept them as fact without sufficient evidence. + There were plenty of opportunities for people to take the high road which were bypassed: Price; the people who jumped on Price after Deroir left the feed; most of the people who pass as reporters on gaming sites; some (by no means all) of the people posting here and elsewhere. + This issue is a minor one in comparison to other social and political issues which challenge us all. However, it is in some ways a microcosm of the challenges we face in navigating though the shoals towards a world which is a better place for everyone. If this issue has the power to divide a large group in such fundamental ways, how will we as a multi-cultural society deal with the more serious issues which still face us? That's all I've got. Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julischka Bean.7491 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 63 pages and showing no sign of slowing down. Well...people are having a good time debating this so that is good. However, I think now would be a good time for a leaker to leak something about the third expansion and turn people's attention to that. I mean, what is done is done, and we cannot change things. All that can be done is to learn from this experience. Going forward, Arenanet needs to draw up new rules for social media posting, and they need to make sure every single employee knows how they are supposed to handle themselves on Social Media. I wish Jessica could understand the reason she got fired, and use this experience as a springboard to become a less bitter Jessica. I wish Peter could be brought back as he was not abusive to anybody, just defended a coworker he perceived as being attacked. If wishes were fishes....sigh. Ok, if anyone out there has anything interesting and juicy to leak..now is your time to shine :) Lisa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyraven.4258 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > @"Greyraven.4258" said: > > What I find most disheartening is the way Bill Murphy a gaming journo over at MMORPG.com is pretty much assassinating MO's character and reputation with Impunity, I also think that one of the posters there stated pretty darned clearly how this is going to end up affecting the Community....... > > Just read this and the only thing that stands out as poor is the paragraph about ex anet staff speaking about MOB. The rest of it is basically saying everyone made mistakes in this whole saga which I agree with. OTOH the stuff on MOB is hardly new, its basically the impression I've gathered from reading ex devs online but its probably best left for an article on its own at some point in the future. I disagree between his original post and actually saying MO is a bad guy in another post it's pretty blatant character assassination and the entire board is going off on him....they can't delete the replies fast enough, I'm actually surprised SBford is standing behind him on this one because anyone who is in their right mind assassinates someones character that has provided revenue to their site in the past? He is also banging hard on him in his twitter. Guess being the S.J.W is more important even if it means throwing your credibility and your livelihood out the window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyraven.4258 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"dontlook.1823" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > @"dontlook.1823" said: > > > Annnnnnnd this video was made by two privileged white males asking if a women was talking appropriately and people are still saying this isn't sexist dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot........................... Okay, GW2 good-bye. > > "Annnnnnnd this video was made by two privileged white males" > > "people are still saying this isn't sexist" > > Yes. Dot dot dot indeed. > > > > Maybe practice what you preach? Unless you don't realize how much your comment is actually sexist. Double standard maybe a bit -too- obvious right here? > > > @"CETheLucid.3964" said: > > > @"dontlook.1823" said: > > > Annnnnnnd this video was made by two privileged white males asking if a women was talking appropriately and people are still saying this isn't sexist dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot........................... Okay, GW2 good-bye. > > Don't let the door hit you on the way out. > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > @"dontlook.1823" said: > > > > @"ReV.6097" said: > > > > Just can't believe she's still playing Victim about the firing. > > > > > > > > > > Annnnnnnd this video was made by two privileged white males asking if a women was talking appropriately and people are still saying this isn't sexist dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot........................... Okay, GW2 good-bye. > > > > Because men can't have valid opinions? Only women can. My wife is a woman, she agrees with what looks like most of the community who actually read the text. JP was out of line, whether she should have been fired or not, she crossed lines that probably shouldn't have been crossed. Saying men can't access that because they're men is sexist. > > So, like, are you guys aware of the privileges males get away with on a daily basis? I don't want to make this a feminist class or anything or even a sociology class but like a lot things guys take for granted girls have to think twice about. **Swearing, being loud, overtly flirting** the list goes on and on. The reason many of you don't realize this is a sexist issue is because you don't realize your privilege. Honestly, that's the saddest part of this whole thing. And the only reason why I stepped up and said anything. Obviously didn't grow up in my home town......... Also I grew up in a communist country, was smuggled to the U.S because my parents were marked for assassination, I have been homeless twice worked my way through college and have seen two major political upheavals where most of my family was killed. Please tell me about my privilege again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrolan.9608 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"Greyraven.4258" said: > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > @"Greyraven.4258" said: > > > What I find most disheartening is the way Bill Murphy a gaming journo over at MMORPG.com is pretty much assassinating MO's character and reputation with Impunity, I also think that one of the posters there stated pretty darned clearly how this is going to end up affecting the Community....... > > > > Just read this and the only thing that stands out as poor is the paragraph about ex anet staff speaking about MOB. The rest of it is basically saying everyone made mistakes in this whole saga which I agree with. OTOH the stuff on MOB is hardly new, its basically the impression I've gathered from reading ex devs online but its probably best left for an article on its own at some point in the future. > > I disagree between his original post and actually saying MO is a bad guy in another post it's pretty blatant character assassination and the entire board is going off on him....they can't delete the replies fast enough, I'm actually surprised SBford is standing behind him on this one because anyone who is in their right mind assassinates someones character that has provided revenue to their site in the past? He is also banging hard on him in his twitter. Now who's lying, the comments on that article are actually a pretty reasonable discussion, something Murphy even says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyraven.4258 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > @"Greyraven.4258" said: > > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > > @"Greyraven.4258" said: > > > > What I find most disheartening is the way Bill Murphy a gaming journo over at MMORPG.com is pretty much assassinating MO's character and reputation with Impunity, I also think that one of the posters there stated pretty darned clearly how this is going to end up affecting the Community....... > > > > > > Just read this and the only thing that stands out as poor is the paragraph about ex anet staff speaking about MOB. The rest of it is basically saying everyone made mistakes in this whole saga which I agree with. OTOH the stuff on MOB is hardly new, its basically the impression I've gathered from reading ex devs online but its probably best left for an article on its own at some point in the future. > > > > I disagree between his original post and actually saying MO is a bad guy in another post it's pretty blatant character assassination and the entire board is going off on him....they can't delete the replies fast enough, I'm actually surprised SBford is standing behind him on this one because anyone who is in their right mind assassinates someones character that has provided revenue to their site in the past? He is also banging hard on him in his twitter. > > Now who's lying, the comments on that article are actually a pretty reasonable discussion, something Murphy even says. > > Dude don't even try one guy called him out and his response was "MO is that you?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dashingsteel.3410 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"dontlook.1823" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > @"dontlook.1823" said: > > > Annnnnnnd this video was made by two privileged white males asking if a women was talking appropriately and people are still saying this isn't sexist dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot........................... Okay, GW2 good-bye. > > "Annnnnnnd this video was made by two privileged white males" > > "people are still saying this isn't sexist" > > Yes. Dot dot dot indeed. > > > > Maybe practice what you preach? Unless you don't realize how much your comment is actually sexist. Double standard maybe a bit -too- obvious right here? > > > @"CETheLucid.3964" said: > > > @"dontlook.1823" said: > > > Annnnnnnd this video was made by two privileged white males asking if a women was talking appropriately and people are still saying this isn't sexist dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot........................... Okay, GW2 good-bye. > > Don't let the door hit you on the way out. > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > @"dontlook.1823" said: > > > > @"ReV.6097" said: > > > > Just can't believe she's still playing Victim about the firing. > > > > > > > > > > Annnnnnnd this video was made by two privileged white males asking if a women was talking appropriately and people are still saying this isn't sexist dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot........................... Okay, GW2 good-bye. > > > > Because men can't have valid opinions? Only women can. My wife is a woman, she agrees with what looks like most of the community who actually read the text. JP was out of line, whether she should have been fired or not, she crossed lines that probably shouldn't have been crossed. Saying men can't access that because they're men is sexist. > > So, like, are you guys aware of the privileges males get away with on a daily basis? I don't want to make this a feminist class or anything or even a sociology class but like a lot things guys take for granted girls have to think twice about. Swearing, being loud, overtly flirting the list goes on and on. The reason many of you don't realize this is a sexist issue is because you don't realize your privilege. Honestly, that's the saddest part of this whole thing. And the only reason why I stepped up and said anything. So our massive ignorance makes us incapable of understanding the truth. This is so typical anytime anyone goes against pc orthodoxy. The pc speaker will claim the other side is ignorant and intellectually inferior while trying to portray their side as the pinnacle of intellectual elitism. She or he even feels sad that we are so ignorant. "Privilege" in this case is being used to undermine an opinion. If you have privilege, you cannot have the moral highground and therefore your opinion should count less. It is just more pc garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrolan.9608 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"Greyraven.4258" said: > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > @"Greyraven.4258" said: > > > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > > > @"Greyraven.4258" said: > > > > > What I find most disheartening is the way Bill Murphy a gaming journo over at MMORPG.com is pretty much assassinating MO's character and reputation with Impunity, I also think that one of the posters there stated pretty darned clearly how this is going to end up affecting the Community....... > > > > > > > > Just read this and the only thing that stands out as poor is the paragraph about ex anet staff speaking about MOB. The rest of it is basically saying everyone made mistakes in this whole saga which I agree with. OTOH the stuff on MOB is hardly new, its basically the impression I've gathered from reading ex devs online but its probably best left for an article on its own at some point in the future. > > > > > > I disagree between his original post and actually saying MO is a bad guy in another post it's pretty blatant character assassination and the entire board is going off on him....they can't delete the replies fast enough, I'm actually surprised SBford is standing behind him on this one because anyone who is in their right mind assassinates someones character that has provided revenue to their site in the past? He is also banging hard on him in his twitter. > > > > Now who's lying, the comments on that article are actually a pretty reasonable discussion, something Murphy even says. > > > > > > Dude don't even try one guy called him out and his response was "MO is that you?" Well he actually admits the MOB should have been in a different article and required more time which is exactly what I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sachimokins.7180 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 This is still going on? She was being rude and acting in a way that doesn't reflect Anet. They had every right to fire her and anyone else not acting to the company's standards. I'm a woman and I didn't see any interactions being sexist, save for maybe the one who was fired attacking someone for their opinion solely based on them being a male. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyraven.4258 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > @"Greyraven.4258" said: > > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > > @"Greyraven.4258" said: > > > > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > > > > @"Greyraven.4258" said: > > > > > > What I find most disheartening is the way Bill Murphy a gaming journo over at MMORPG.com is pretty much assassinating MO's character and reputation with Impunity, I also think that one of the posters there stated pretty darned clearly how this is going to end up affecting the Community....... > > > > > > > > > > Just read this and the only thing that stands out as poor is the paragraph about ex anet staff speaking about MOB. The rest of it is basically saying everyone made mistakes in this whole saga which I agree with. OTOH the stuff on MOB is hardly new, its basically the impression I've gathered from reading ex devs online but its probably best left for an article on its own at some point in the future. > > > > > > > > I disagree between his original post and actually saying MO is a bad guy in another post it's pretty blatant character assassination and the entire board is going off on him....they can't delete the replies fast enough, I'm actually surprised SBford is standing behind him on this one because anyone who is in their right mind assassinates someones character that has provided revenue to their site in the past? He is also banging hard on him in his twitter. > > > > > > Now who's lying, the comments on that article are actually a pretty reasonable discussion, something Murphy even says. > > > > > > > > > > Dude don't even try one guy called him out and his response was "MO is that you?" > > Well he actually admits the MOB should have been in a different article and required more time which is exactly what I said. No he knew what he was doing The article is designed to leave an implication festering in the imaginations of people who may be fence-sitting that O'Brien is something sinister, that hurts game devs, but leaving it up to people to imagine what that is. He was letting the audience use their imagination on what horrible things Mike could have done with no actual evidence and implying some potentially libelous things should he take this to another article and that is just as bad if not worse as what JP is doing now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loli Ruri.8307 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"sachimokins.7180" said: > This is still going on? She was being rude and acting in a way that doesn't reflect Anet. They had every right to fire her and anyone else not acting to the company's standards. I'm a woman and I didn't see any interactions being sexist, save for maybe the one who was fired attacking someone for their opinion solely based on them being a male. It's identity politics. The worst of today's date. Which is why I was pointing out above in another post, calling a white guy out as being irrelevant because of skin colour, is the same level of stupid as the people who are attacking a dude who got a sun tan in a foreign country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"dontlook.1823" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > @"dontlook.1823" said: > > > Annnnnnnd this video was made by two privileged white males asking if a women was talking appropriately and people are still saying this isn't sexist dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot........................... Okay, GW2 good-bye. > > "Annnnnnnd this video was made by two privileged white males" > > "people are still saying this isn't sexist" > > Yes. Dot dot dot indeed. > > > > Maybe practice what you preach? Unless you don't realize how much your comment is actually sexist. Double standard maybe a bit -too- obvious right here? > > > @"CETheLucid.3964" said: > > > @"dontlook.1823" said: > > > Annnnnnnd this video was made by two privileged white males asking if a women was talking appropriately and people are still saying this isn't sexist dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot........................... Okay, GW2 good-bye. > > Don't let the door hit you on the way out. > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > @"dontlook.1823" said: > > > > @"ReV.6097" said: > > > > Just can't believe she's still playing Victim about the firing. > > > > > > > > > > Annnnnnnd this video was made by two privileged white males asking if a women was talking appropriately and people are still saying this isn't sexist dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot........................... Okay, GW2 good-bye. > > > > Because men can't have valid opinions? Only women can. My wife is a woman, she agrees with what looks like most of the community who actually read the text. JP was out of line, whether she should have been fired or not, she crossed lines that probably shouldn't have been crossed. Saying men can't access that because they're men is sexist. > > So, like, are you guys aware of the privileges males get away with on a daily basis? I don't want to make this a feminist class or anything or even a sociology class but like a lot things guys take for granted girls have to think twice about. Swearing, being loud, overtly flirting the list goes on and on. The reason many of you don't realize this is a sexist issue is because you don't realize your privilege. Honestly, that's the saddest part of this whole thing. And the only reason why I stepped up and said anything. You're not doing a class, you're doing politics. And just like any extreme you can't see the contradiction right in front of your eyes. It's called hasty generalization, a common fallacy among people who are less interested in equality and more about blaming others for whatever they think is wrong with their lives. Like, you are accusing me (and other "white men") by proxy to do these things "swearing, being loud" (bit tame as examples, but whatever). Last I remember, "swearing" isn't proper to men and nor is "being loud", the dev you're defending certainly does those things, her whole twitter feed is full of frustration and calling out people for whatever reason. So what? Everyone can do these things. It's gender-less. That a higher percentage of men do it (and you'd have to prove it, but whatever) doesn't give you the right to accuse by proxy. It's BY DEFINITION what sexism IS. You're segregating people based on their gender. That's what you're doing right now, whether you want it or not, whether you think you get to have the higher moral ground or not. Here's a class lesson: Innocent until proven guilty. Remember that because it's at the core of our justice system. Funnily enough, it's often "forgotten" by the agenda of both extremes. The so called privileges that you keep throwing at everyone, without knowing a single thing about any of us, without -ever- (like, absolutely EVER) considering the fact that there ARE women calling JP's BS, that they ARE people who "aren't white" who are calling this bullshit are only doing one thing, bringing embarrassment to the actual feminism movement as well as genuine cases of sexist abuse. But keep going, with your conception black and white of the world. Keep going and try associating every women to this dev's behavior. You aren't demonstrating anything that we didn't already know about extremes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilty.4906 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 I was watching some PewDiePie videos and I came across this: [ "https://youtu.be/9AemOdm8LrU?t=452") It's not about JP but it's a very similar case. Just watch one minute into it and you will see what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evon Skyfyre.9673 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > My takeaways at this point: > > + The gaming "media" coverage, at least the ones I've looked at (most of the one's linked here), are editorials, opinion pieces, not responsible reporting. They're not reporting facts without making value judgments. Responsible reporting would stick to facts, and let the readers make up their own minds. > + You need a public platform if your intent is to speak out on social issues. > + If you're on a public platform, it's not really "yours." > + Attempting to shame others is a tactic that is all too commonly used (JP is but one of many in this issue to do so). > + Everyone has an opinion, and a lot of us want to let ours be known. > + A lot of people are going to make up their minds based on limited or incorrect information. > + Critical thinking is in short supply. > + It's better to look critically at statements that serve someone's agenda than to accept them as fact without sufficient evidence. > + There were plenty of opportunities for people to take the high road which were bypassed: Price; the people who jumped on Price after Deroir left the feed; most of the people who pass as reporters on gaming sites; some (by no means all) of the people posting here and elsewhere. > + This issue is a minor one in comparison to other social and political issues which challenge us all. However, it is in some ways a microcosm of the challenges we face in navigating though the shoals towards a world which is a better place for everyone. If this issue has the power to divide a large group in such fundamental ways, how will we as a multi-cultural society deal with the more serious issues which still face us? > > That's all I've got. > > Peace So basically, life online. And very well said :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 There, It feels good to listen to rationality. That's the difference between wanting equality of opportunity and straight out wanting more rights than anyone else, while also claiming to speak in the name of a whole subset of the population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadshow.9320 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"Harper.4173" said: > > @"RoseofGilead.8907" said: > > > @"Harper.4173" said: > > > And that's where people are wrong. Those titles might have meant something remotely positive maybe 20 or 30 years ago. Today as far as I see it they're a massive red flag. And by that I mean that statistically speaking - you have very good odds of finding someone who's completely unreasonable label themselves as such. Better odds than finding a decent human being. > > > Maybe I'm wrong and maybe I'm biased but as far as I've seen it - it seems to be the case. I guess all the normal people are more quiet and don't need to make everything into their personal crusade? > > > > Yes, that does sound biased. > > My bias keeps me nice and safe. > Bias and stereotype are defensive mechanisms - people have them in order to avoid things that are unpleasant. > I don't really understand why they're seen as bad - when most of the times they are going to keep you safe. I really don't understand the hate on stereotypes given the alternative is one monotype. And if Roger Watters and Pink Floyd thought us anything is that we don't want one monotype. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River Willow.6721 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 This is a sad series of events. There’s a lot of emotion in this thread and quite a few well written and thoughtful posts too. Many of my own thoughts have already been well articulated in other posts, so I’ll try not to repeat too much of what’s already been said. But I want to address this idea since I’ve seen this theme running through a number of other posts. > @"dontlook.1823" said: > ... I mean like look at it. Jessica is a professional developer she is not going to feed the ego of somebody who is not even in her field. Lets be real, someone who is as experienced as she is doesn't want to have a discussion with someone who completely lacks the nuance knowledge to even hold a conversation... What you describe here is not the embodiment of professionalism and expertise, but its polar opposite. In simple terms, the Master does not denigrate, shame, lash-out at, or otherwise attempt to humiliate the Novice for what that student does not know. The essence of mastery is that you cannot be knocked off your center by someone of lesser skill or expertise. Instead of seeing a model of professionalism and expertise here, we see the sad unraveling of a fragile ego and the painful struggle of an angry, insecure, and impulsive young woman whose emotional problems have destroyed her own career and contributed to harming others. Again, nothing to celebrate. traveling mercies all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlyRedPanda.8596 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 I’ve been thinking about this post for a few days now. I’m not sure where to begin. I’ve been running around Tyria for over 9 years now. I stood in line for hours the first time they had the GW2 demo at PAX. I attended the launch party. I was in San Antonio when they unveiled HoT. This is one of the companies that motivated me to learn how to make games. I could keep going on and on. This game means so much to me… I am incredibly hurt. Out of this whole situation, this is the worst possible outcome. Nobody ‘wins.’ I hope that people start seeing beyond “this side” or “that side.” A lot of people messed up and two people payed for it with their livelihood. Communication is so much more than grammar or syntax and player-developer communication does not exist in a vacuum. Content creators: developers don’t owe you their personal time or a personal interaction. Especially when they are off or on break during holiday. Remember that there is a person behind the developer. That person has a family too. They want to be off work to enjoy life, just like you do. There is an entire communication team and official forums at your disposal, please use those resources wisely. Developers: There are so many things wrong with this industry. There are horrible things like sexism and racism that are older than the industry itself. They have taken root in this discipline. I see those of you that are fighting for a better world and I appreciate what you do. But please know, you don’t have to do it alone. It’s okay to disappear sometimes and take care of you. When we don’t care for ourselves our activism suffers. I know I may become aggressive and snap at people when I’m exhausted. A better world can’t exist if I’m too exhausted to function. A better world is not created if I’m tired and spend my time snapping at people. Mike: When I talked to the ANet team publicly or privately I got the impression that when you work for ANet you are treated like family. If that is true… you don’t do this to family. You hold incredible power not just with your company, but throughout the industry. Outside of this studio, this event has had major negative ramifications. I understand that disciplinary action needed to be taken, but not this way. Whatever your views may be, I hope your learned something. We all know JP and PF didn’t get that chance. I hope this painful experience helps spring board a better plan for conflict resolution. Tyrians: When the word on the street was that we had the best community, I believed it. What happened? Over the last few days I’ve seen so many unredeemable comments; they range from threatening physical harm to wishing the literal death of developers. I used to think “that’s not us, that’s reddit.” But then the comments started to surface here. This is us. The title of best community is not a sash that we get to wear and parade around when we want to. We actually have to work for it. We have failed. But some of your kinder comments give me hope and in times like the ones we live in, that is very much appreciated. I was so close to making it to a decade in Tyria, but I think it’s time to take a vacation. Thank you for all the good times. I hope that when I return, Tyria will be a kinder place. Good luck in your journey and may magic find be ever in your favor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loli Ruri.8307 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"SlyRedPanda.8596" said: > Content creators: developers don’t owe you their personal time or a personal interaction. Especially when they are off or on break during holiday. Remember that there is a person behind the developer. That person has a family too. They want to be off work to enjoy life, just like you do. There is an entire communication team and official forums at your disposal, please use those resources wisely. Posts on holiday about work, but then attacks people on said holiday when the discussion was about work, and makes it about sexism. Isn't there the ability on Twitter to post the next day? Why not set clear boundaries with your audience? Instead of attacking, why not just ignore, let it go? They say to men, to man up, and yet don't want to woman up and be smarter. I saw a shirt just earlier today that said that women are smarter, to empower women was the excuse for Target to sell this shirt. Is it really smart to attack your audience with a company name on your shoulder, on a holiday where you're meant to be relaxing, when the discussion was about work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaklex.6308 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > > @"Zabi Zabi.3561" said: > > > > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > > > > > > There's only one winner in this situation: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > + Not Ms. Price: She lost her job, which might have added to her stress. > > > > > > > > + Not Mr. Fries: He lost his job which he seems to have valued. > > > > > > > > + Not ANet management: at best they've acted in the way that was less of a loss, but no matter what they did, some group was going to be unhappy with them. > > > > > > > > + Not ANet staff: this kind of situation is going to have repercussions and effect staff's sense of camaraderie. > > > > > > > > + Not Deroir: though by comparison, his loss is almost not worth mentioning, this situation has got to leave a bad taste in the mouth. > > > > > > > > + Not the GW2 community: some are satisfied with ANet's reaction, some are not, but the affair has highlighted the divides between us more than any other interaction I've followed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The winner? The winner is people who like watching things burn. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That means we all lost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Price would have been hazardous to the company if she was kept around and kept insulting the PLAYER BASE OF THE GAME AND COMPANY SHE WORKED FOR! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet did the right thing by putting the COMMUNITY OF THE GAME FIRST before TOXIC EMPLOYEES! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So the true winners are Anet, and the Community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some will have disagreeing opinions and will probably leave the game HOWEVER! I have noticed more new players coming in and that's a good thing! > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm a part of the community, and I definitely _don't_feel like this is a win. And, honestly, this whole situation is a setback for women in the gaming industry-- not to mention in society as a whole. Anet's actions were necessary, but they're nothing to be celebrated. All of this brigading and mob mentality does nothing but degrade the GW2 community. > > > > > How does removing a terrible person make it a setback for women in the gaming industry? I'm in the gaming industry, and I don't feel a setback at all. Wat? XD > > > > > > > > Been debating about answering this, since it taps into a lot of personal experience I'd rather forget. Reading a lot of the comments puts me back a good decade, with all the emotions and frustrations I felt as a female student in various IT classrooms around the Silicon Valley. I got singled out a few times, including one encounter with a professor I ended up taking to the dean, met with constant skepticism from male students, etc. You could walk into that environment as a complete clueless male noob who didn't know where the on button was and not be met with the same kind of condescension you'd get as a hardcore computer hobbyist with a server certification under her belt. I'm pretty laid back and easy-going, so I'd usually post stellar grades, help others with labs, etc. and "earn" respect by being better than most. But it really wears on you after a while. I got sick of it and quit, eventually. I can't imagine what dealing with that professionally would have been like. > > > > > > > > I think any woman in the tech and gaming industry has to have a steel spine, just like any man becoming an elementary school teacher or a nurse. I really don't. And I can imagine, knowing how I get, that I'd probably explode under the stress like JP may have. > > > > > > > > Reading the press out of this-- which is what most people in the industry are going to do-- would definitely deter me from wanting to enter the industry. Knowing that I could be targeted by internet mobs because a friend of mine exploded under such pressures would deter me from remaining in the industry. <--Been reading that a few female devs who knew JP have been bullied by the mobs. This whole scenario has a chilling effect on women's participation both now and in the future. > > > > > > > > Like I said before-- I think the firing decision was the right one. But none of the side-effects are good or beneficial in the long run. It's a titanic mess that's only getting worse. > > > This was a good read. But the reality is, I don't get the same experience. Maybe it's different here. But as a woman, I just don't get people giving me crap just for being a woman. In fact, I have learned to talk their language, and how to present myself in a manner that does not detract. Maybe it's because I don't expect the world to change for me, but for me to fit in. If somebody is giving me crap tho, I will call it out, but not to their face, but to HR, or to my boss. Because it's their job to handle those who don't want to work as a part of a team. Griping goes up, not down. > > > > Let's see here...first off, you shouldn't have to fit in, but neither should the world have to change for you...there has to be give and take on both sides to reach a middle ground. I'm also curious to know if when you do bring something up to HR or to your boss, do they investigate first and then offer solutions; or do they set up a meeting between you and the alleged harasser so you can sit down and take it over between yourselves to see if you can come up with your own solution? Because honestly, that's the way it should start, you start with a peer to peer meeting between the harasser and the harassee, if nothing can be worked out,, then you start moving up the ladder, first with your immediate superior...with an HR representative present at all time, but they're not there to say or do anything except observe and take notes. > > Irs not what I would do for sure.. If I had such a serious complaint happen internally I wouldn't want either party sat in a room left to discuss > I would firstly investigate if there is anything of merit or just some redditor troll sounding off. If the claim has merit and there are definite grounds to investigate then that is what is done and all parties placed apart, perhaps with both placed on temporary while its happening.. when all the facts are known and all the boxes are ticked then a decision on how to move forward will be debated by the business leadership, HR, legal. > Put yourself in the shoes of the man or women if such claims are real and true.. how would you feel about sitting in a room for discussion with the other party.. no that is not how to handle it imo, in fact it could well serve to exacerbate the problem in other serious ways... any mediation should always be undertaken after the facts are known and all parties concerned have been briefed individually. Even if mediation is accepted by both parties, it should be carried out under proper senior management/HR or qualified / legal supervision imo. Here I can give you some pointed facts on my reasoning, I'm quite familiar with the issue, but I also make it a point of discussing boundaries when developing a new friendship or working relationship, the reason being is to set definite expectations on what is allowed and not allowed, however, that only works if people listen and are willing to discuss. I've been employed at my current job for 11 years, and during those 11 years I have one official complaint of sexual harassment, it was a blatant false accusation, though the investigation was more like a trial than an investigation()and they do separate the employees to two different work locations). I also filed a counter claim against the one official charge because I had been told by another employee they heard 2 people telling a third person to make the claim(because those 2 people had an agenda against me, for what reason I never found out), and the person that brought the claim apologized to me when they were leaving the job(again, because of another false claim made by others). But my claim was dismissed summarily, whilst the claim against me did not result in any severe disciplinary action, it did result in a discussion and being given the entire 80 page harassment policy book which listed items such as looking at a coworker being considered harassment...yes, you read that right, you can't look at a coworker...our job is to look and observe, I can literally look right through someone to observe something behind or beyond them and not even notice that person is standing in my line of sight. The other 2 accusations did not go through official channels and do not appear in my file, but not in any of those instance did the person come to me first and talk to me about it. I won't bite someones head off for telling me they feel uncomfortable around me or with something I said or did, just tell me you don't like and want me to stop and it will. As a matter of fact our organization specifically has it setup so that there is a peer to peer dispute resolution process before escalation, but none of these people took that route, it's encouraged to go through the peer to peer process first(they've taken employees on the same level and trained them in dispute resolution, so it's not like these are just blind sessions), so you have the 2 aggrieved parties sitting down with a third person of the same level as you facilitating the discussion. It's inherently not in the employees best interest to go instantly up the chain of command to resolve disputes as it causes more people to not say anything than it does to say something. First step, peer to peer with HR or trained peer observer, if no resolution is possible between the two parties via this route, then you can start moving up the ladder, however this issue rather far off base from the discussion at hand...which I noticed everyone is dismissing all of the game media sites as just bad one sided journalism. How it can be considered one sided, when like with Polygon they published the full response from MO, which if anyone actually read it does not dispute JP's recollection of how the meeting went one iota. Even if you disagree with them backing her, and that's really a separate issue, you have to admit they're making some valid points, just read the latest one in Polygon, I suggest people read it multiple times if they don't grasp the concept of what they're saying in how it's only hurting the industry internally. Look at the big picture this way, ArenaNet is not beholden to any shareholders, there's only 1 shareholder in the company, NCSoft, and they chose with GW2 to take a more hands off approach when MO and company convinced them they could self fund continued operations with the same B2P model as GW1 by including a bigger cash shop. So now they still need to make money to send to HQ, but they also need to make money to continue developing the game and paying salaries of employees, that comes from your customers, some of whom make up the community(not all customers are part of the community, the play the game but they don't interact with the foums or on reddit, etc., they don't care about changes, etc., etc.,, the only play the game no matter how the game evolves). You then get these really passionate players that create YouTube videos and Twitch channels and just put the game out there because they really love it, so you create a partner program to give them inside scoop. Now the community that follows the game more intensely than your common player has a source for news(so to speak). Fast forward to the game being out almost 6 years, your games has gone through many changes and the story has evolved, you have finally got a decent(I dare say good) writing team together and your bread and butter Living World seasons are in top form. One of these people who hasn't been with the company very long has a history of standing up against sexism against female devs and allegedly is told that won't be a problem, that she can continue to speak her mind on her personal social media accounts, what details in the social media conduct rules at this company are we do not know, we are not privy to. So this person make a tweet on her personal account, which happens to mention where she works, and the tweets sum up a process on how a particular part of narrative is written, yes, it's open to the public, but it's also basically a statement of fact, as this is how it is done and why. Now, one of these partners, a well respected on evidently(I'd never heard of him before) is enamored of this person, sees the tweet and thinks it's an opening for discussion, so responds. Said dev has had men tell her how to do her job since she entered the field, and continued to do so even after having worked at it for a number of years and has probably tried if not discussed amongst coworkers different ways to try things. This partner(and community member) suggests something that has already been discussed and is basically common knowledge among all devs that work in narrative...yes another male suggesting how she can do her work better, again, instead of just reading the tweets as what they were...this is how it's done and why. We all know what went down from that point forward, so I won't rehash everything, but I will say this, the company can not protect employees from outside harassment(if it exists), but they can lessen it by not broadcasting to the world the outcome of an internal issue. I'll also say this, so there's 11 million accounts on GW2 out there, let's say that's 9 million players to cover all those with multiple accounts. There are over 7 billion people in the world, and a lot of those people are women...just how easily do you think it would be to replace those that left if you kept the employees on board after they offered an apology to the allegedly aggrieved partner? Is this relevant to anything, not really, but you have to look at the bigger picture, not just the current mood of the mobs and community...there's also the non-community players, they are left in the dust because they just don't care. _P.S. - I'd hire in a heartbeat if I owned and ran a game company, because she does write good and direct good narrative, but my company policy would be clearly stated to the community that my devs are free to do and say what they want on their "personal" social media accounts, that they only speak for the company when on company time, because I believe in separating your work life from your personal life._ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > > > @"juhani.5361" said: > > > > > > > > @"Zabi Zabi.3561" said: > > > > > > > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > > > > > > > There's only one winner in this situation: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > + Not Ms. Price: She lost her job, which might have added to her stress. > > > > > > > > > + Not Mr. Fries: He lost his job which he seems to have valued. > > > > > > > > > + Not ANet management: at best they've acted in the way that was less of a loss, but no matter what they did, some group was going to be unhappy with them. > > > > > > > > > + Not ANet staff: this kind of situation is going to have repercussions and effect staff's sense of camaraderie. > > > > > > > > > + Not Deroir: though by comparison, his loss is almost not worth mentioning, this situation has got to leave a bad taste in the mouth. > > > > > > > > > + Not the GW2 community: some are satisfied with ANet's reaction, some are not, but the affair has highlighted the divides between us more than any other interaction I've followed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The winner? The winner is people who like watching things burn. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That means we all lost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Price would have been hazardous to the company if she was kept around and kept insulting the PLAYER BASE OF THE GAME AND COMPANY SHE WORKED FOR! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet did the right thing by putting the COMMUNITY OF THE GAME FIRST before TOXIC EMPLOYEES! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So the true winners are Anet, and the Community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some will have disagreeing opinions and will probably leave the game HOWEVER! I have noticed more new players coming in and that's a good thing! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm a part of the community, and I definitely _don't_feel like this is a win. And, honestly, this whole situation is a setback for women in the gaming industry-- not to mention in society as a whole. Anet's actions were necessary, but they're nothing to be celebrated. All of this brigading and mob mentality does nothing but degrade the GW2 community. > > > > > > How does removing a terrible person make it a setback for women in the gaming industry? I'm in the gaming industry, and I don't feel a setback at all. Wat? XD > > > > > > > > > > Been debating about answering this, since it taps into a lot of personal experience I'd rather forget. Reading a lot of the comments puts me back a good decade, with all the emotions and frustrations I felt as a female student in various IT classrooms around the Silicon Valley. I got singled out a few times, including one encounter with a professor I ended up taking to the dean, met with constant skepticism from male students, etc. You could walk into that environment as a complete clueless male noob who didn't know where the on button was and not be met with the same kind of condescension you'd get as a hardcore computer hobbyist with a server certification under her belt. I'm pretty laid back and easy-going, so I'd usually post stellar grades, help others with labs, etc. and "earn" respect by being better than most. But it really wears on you after a while. I got sick of it and quit, eventually. I can't imagine what dealing with that professionally would have been like. > > > > > > > > > > I think any woman in the tech and gaming industry has to have a steel spine, just like any man becoming an elementary school teacher or a nurse. I really don't. And I can imagine, knowing how I get, that I'd probably explode under the stress like JP may have. > > > > > > > > > > Reading the press out of this-- which is what most people in the industry are going to do-- would definitely deter me from wanting to enter the industry. Knowing that I could be targeted by internet mobs because a friend of mine exploded under such pressures would deter me from remaining in the industry. <--Been reading that a few female devs who knew JP have been bullied by the mobs. This whole scenario has a chilling effect on women's participation both now and in the future. > > > > > > > > > > Like I said before-- I think the firing decision was the right one. But none of the side-effects are good or beneficial in the long run. It's a titanic mess that's only getting worse. > > > > This was a good read. But the reality is, I don't get the same experience. Maybe it's different here. But as a woman, I just don't get people giving me crap just for being a woman. In fact, I have learned to talk their language, and how to present myself in a manner that does not detract. Maybe it's because I don't expect the world to change for me, but for me to fit in. If somebody is giving me crap tho, I will call it out, but not to their face, but to HR, or to my boss. Because it's their job to handle those who don't want to work as a part of a team. Griping goes up, not down. > > > > > > Let's see here...first off, you shouldn't have to fit in, but neither should the world have to change for you...there has to be give and take on both sides to reach a middle ground. I'm also curious to know if when you do bring something up to HR or to your boss, do they investigate first and then offer solutions; or do they set up a meeting between you and the alleged harasser so you can sit down and take it over between yourselves to see if you can come up with your own solution? Because honestly, that's the way it should start, you start with a peer to peer meeting between the harasser and the harassee, if nothing can be worked out,, then you start moving up the ladder, first with your immediate superior...with an HR representative present at all time, but they're not there to say or do anything except observe and take notes. > > > > Irs not what I would do for sure.. If I had such a serious complaint happen internally I wouldn't want either party sat in a room left to discuss > > I would firstly investigate if there is anything of merit or just some redditor troll sounding off. If the claim has merit and there are definite grounds to investigate then that is what is done and all parties placed apart, perhaps with both placed on temporary while its happening.. when all the facts are known and all the boxes are ticked then a decision on how to move forward will be debated by the business leadership, HR, legal. > > Put yourself in the shoes of the man or women if such claims are real and true.. how would you feel about sitting in a room for discussion with the other party.. no that is not how to handle it imo, in fact it could well serve to exacerbate the problem in other serious ways... any mediation should always be undertaken after the facts are known and all parties concerned have been briefed individually. Even if mediation is accepted by both parties, it should be carried out under proper senior management/HR or qualified / legal supervision imo. > > Here I can give you some pointed facts on my reasoning, I'm quite familiar with the issue, but I also make it a point of discussing boundaries when developing a new friendship or working relationship, the reason being is to set definite expectations on what is allowed and not allowed, however, that only works if people listen and are willing to discuss. I've been employed at my current job for 11 years, and during those 11 years I have one official complaint of sexual harassment, it was a blatant false accusation, though the investigation was more like a trial than an investigation()and they do separate the employees to two different work locations). I also filed a counter claim against the one official charge because I had been told by another employee they heard 2 people telling a third person to make the claim(because those 2 people had an agenda against me, for what reason I never found out), and the person that brought the claim apologized to me when they were leaving the job(again, because of another false claim made by others). But my claim was dismissed summarily, whilst the claim against me did not result in any severe disciplinary action, it did result in a discussion and being given the entire 80 page harassment policy book which listed items such as looking at a coworker being considered harassment...yes, you read that right, you can't look at a coworker...our job is to look and observe, I can literally look right through someone to observe something behind or beyond them and not even notice that person is standing in my line of sight. > > The other 2 accusations did not go through official channels and do not appear in my file, but not in any of those instance did the person come to me first and talk to me about it. I won't bite someones head off for telling me they feel uncomfortable around me or with something I said or did, just tell me you don't like and want me to stop and it will. As a matter of fact our organization specifically has it setup so that there is a peer to peer dispute resolution process before escalation, but none of these people took that route, it's encouraged to go through the peer to peer process first(they've taken employees on the same level and trained them in dispute resolution, so it's not like these are just blind sessions), so you have the 2 aggrieved parties sitting down with a third person of the same level as you facilitating the discussion. It's inherently not in the employees best interest to go instantly up the chain of command to resolve disputes as it causes more people to not say anything than it does to say something. > > First step, peer to peer with HR or trained peer observer, if no resolution is possible between the two parties via this route, then you can start moving up the ladder, however this issue rather far off base from the discussion at hand...which I noticed everyone is dismissing all of the game media sites as just bad one sided journalism. How it can be considered one sided, when like with Polygon they published the full response from MO, which if anyone actually read it does not dispute JP's recollection of how the meeting went one iota. Even if you disagree with them backing her, and that's really a separate issue, you have to admit they're making some valid points, just read the latest one in Polygon, I suggest people read it multiple times if they don't grasp the concept of what they're saying in how it's only hurting the industry internally. > > Look at the big picture this way, ArenaNet is not beholden to any shareholders, there's only 1 shareholder in the company, NCSoft, and they chose with GW2 to take a more hands off approach when MO and company convinced them they could self fund continued operations with the same B2P model as GW1 by including a bigger cash shop. So now they still need to make money to send to HQ, but they also need to make money to continue developing the game and paying salaries of employees, that comes from your customers, some of whom make up the community(not all customers are part of the community, the play the game but they don't interact with the foums or on reddit, etc., they don't care about changes, etc., etc.,, the only play the game no matter how the game evolves). You then get these really passionate players that create YouTube videos and Twitch channels and just put the game out there because they really love it, so you create a partner program to give them inside scoop. Now the community that follows the game more intensely than your common player has a source for news(so to speak). Fast forward to the game being out almost 6 years, your games has gone through many changes and the story has evolved, you have finally got a decent(I dare say good) writing team together and your bread and butter Living World seasons are in top form. One of these people who hasn't been with the company very long has a history of standing up against sexism against female devs and allegedly is told that won't be a problem, that she can continue to speak her mind on her personal social media accounts, what details in the social media conduct rules at this company are we do not know, we are not privy to. So this person make a tweet on her personal account, which happens to mention where she works, and the tweets sum up a process on how a particular part of narrative is written, yes, it's open to the public, but it's also basically a statement of fact, as this is how it is done and why. Now, one of these partners, a well respected on evidently(I'd never heard of him before) is enamored of this person, sees the tweet and thinks it's an opening for discussion, so responds. Said dev has had men tell her how to do her job since she entered the field, and continued to do so even after having worked at it for a number of years and has probably tried if not discussed amongst coworkers different ways to try things. This partner(and community member) suggests something that has already been discussed and is basically common knowledge among all devs that work in narrative...yes another male suggesting how she can do her work better, again, instead of just reading the tweets as what they were...this is how it's done and why. We all know what went down from that point forward, so I won't rehash everything, but I will say this, the company can not protect employees from outside harassment(if it exists), but they can lessen it by not broadcasting to the world the outcome of an internal issue. > > I'll also say this, so there's 11 million accounts on GW2 out there, let's say that's 9 million players to cover all those with multiple accounts. There are over 7 billion people in the world, and a lot of those people are women...just how easily do you think it would be to replace those that left if you kept the employees on board after they offered an apology to the allegedly aggrieved partner? Is this relevant to anything, not really, but you have to look at the bigger picture, not just the current mood of the mobs and community...there's also the non-community players, they are left in the dust because they just don't care. > > _P.S. - I'd hire in a heartbeat if I owned and ran a game company, because she does write good and direct good narrative, but my company policy would be clearly stated to the community that my devs are free to do and say what they want on their "personal" social media accounts, that they only speak for the company when on company time, because I believe in separating your work life from your personal life._ Excuse me if I didn't get all of this, but i feel like you're comparing a employee to employee crisis with a employee to consumer issue. This is really different, and should be treated differently. You can treat employee issues internally, but you can't do much if your employee already made a problem public. MO's statement is actually pretty rational. If they have a problem, they talk to their employer first. I know it's been repeated a thousand times but it's at the core of professionalism to behave while confronting consumers. The interpretation of Polygon however (in the one article - not all of them - where the statement isn't chopped off) tends to act like if they knew everything that went on internally already. Also sorry, but it's hard to resist: "Today, in being a CEO of a video game company: allow me, a person who's never been in charge of a company, to tell you how you do your job" Your PS looks an awful lot like a member of a forum criticizing a moderator because you think you know better. I don't know if you ever went from normal member to moderator, but it changes your perception on a lot of things. All suddenly, you need to do right by everyone, but just like a game of Tropico, there's always a faction that's gonna feel left out. So... if you feel entitled to comment on how a CEO operates with very limited information, it should be even more acceptable to comment on a dev's work, even though for them what you're gonna say might sound like narrative design 101. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now