The Knight of Hope.8023 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" I mean, it also bears pointing out that one need not solicit responses in a public conversation on Twitter. There is no such thing as permission to respond when someone puts themselves out in front of the public that way. The only reason why anybody would claim that this is a thing is because there was nothing rude or unkind about what was actually said by the gentleman who chose to respond. It's telling that what was actually said in that conversation is still not being quoted at all in reference to the idea that this person was being rude or uncalled for. It turns out that there's also nothing inherently unkind about giving someone feedback about how they're doing their job, by the way; The most effective creative people want engagement from their audiences to find out how they feel about the job that they're doing. You could be technically incorrect if you were telling a surgeon or a physicist something that was inaccurate about surgery or physics, but creativity is not a technical field that requires understanding of rigid rules or rigorous qualifications in order to engage in it. This means there is no hard factual basis to tell someone that they are not qualified or technically correct when it comes to discussing or giving feedback about the arts. (Edited to add second thought.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > Did you know that I'm the reason why combo fields are color coded? It's true. I mean, I didn't personally program each of the combo fields, but it was a suggestion of mine. Back in the old forums I had a thread titled "Do what now? Or, why I'm no good at this game," and in it I talked about the absence of teaching tools for a complicated combat system. Particularly in contrast to other MMOs. I suspect that I'm directly responsible for a lot of things because of this, such as the dodge tutorials in low level zones, but color coded combo fields were one of the things I directly suggested and it is an idea that appeared nowhere else. On other issues, sometimes it might be an internal idea that I just happen to touch on, or maybe it is a popular complaint and I just haven't seen it anywhere else. But, those pretty little circles are mine. > > > > > > > > You're probably wondering what this has to do with anything. Here's the issue: if we directly take the line of thinking proposed by others here to say that Deroir has committed some kind of social sin in his tweets, and extend it logically to all similar circumstances, then we conclude that my suggestion for color coded combo rings was also some kind of social sin. Me, a non-professional, told seasoned professionals (many of whom are women) how to do their job unsolicited in a matter that is far more authoritarian than Deroir did. Not only that, but I've done it at least half a dozen times, making elaborate lists of problems and often having no real solutions due to a lack of creativity on my part. > > > > > > > > Never trust anyone who tells you not to think. When somebody says "Don't tell me how to do my job", what they are really saying is > > > > > > > > "You are not allowed to think about my work. > > > > "You are not allowed to discuss the philosophy of the work. > > > > "You are not allowed to make suggestions. > > > > "You are not allowed to criticize or attempt to criticize my work. > > > > "You are not allowed to tell me what you would like to see or would like to buy. > > > > "You are not allowed to question my decisions, even if they don't make sense to you. > > > > "You are not allowed to discuss my professionalism or behaviors. > > > > "If you have a concern for the game, for myself, or for yourself, you are not allowed to voice them or even have them." > > > > > > > > Which is all obviously very silly. The conclusion is that telling somebody how to do their job is a _good thing_ because doing so produces good things. If you want to argue the contrary, then excuse me while I thump my bible here: (S)He who has never sinned may cast the first stone. Can you honestly say that you've never voiced an unsolicited suggestion or concern or criticism regarding class balance? Regarding allocation of development resources? Regarding game difficulty? Regarding WvW structuring? Regarding the economy? For any game you've ever played? For any media you consume? For every any transaction or exchange? And if not, have these unsolicited suggestions or concerns or criticisms never produced a good outcome? The idea is truly silly. > > > > > > > > It is obvious that Deroir did nothing wrong. There needs to exist some grand evidence to prove the contrary, and that evidence does not exist. > > > > > > Can I honestly say that I've NEVER voiced an UNSOLICITED suggestion or criticism...100% unequivocally YES. I've never, ever offered an UNSOLICITED suggestion for anything that did not have to do with the job I perform...why, because I don't know a kitten thing about the job. I have offered suggestions and criticism when it's been asked for, but I refuse to offer UNSOLICITED suggestions or criticisms, that's the easiest way to get yourself beat up(figuratively speaking of course) or dumped on. Even when I was a member of the Alpha team way back in the first couple of years I never offered UNSOLICITED suggestions, nor did I criticize anything...not until it was asked for did was that information put forth, but I did keep notes on what I might say when it was asked for. As far as I know none of my suggestions or criticisms have ever resulted in anything, so it's not silly to say that they produced a good outcome, because they produced no outcome. Also, I don't think responding to someone else's suggestion or criticism falls in the same category as it's usually stating why it might or might not work, or it might offer an alternative to the original suggestion(which I'm usually suggesting to the OP and not to whomever it's directed at). I think it's silly to suggest we might know more than the devs...we don't have the metrics or the numbers behind the metrics they do...which is a hell of a lot more important that feelings or other reasons. > > > > > > P.S. - I still don't see why we needed the combo fields color coded, it's not like you weren't told about them...but then I mostly play ranger so I guess it was easier for me to just figure them out(which is almost how I learn all things, I just figure them out on my own). > > > > [Here's a thread of you doing exactly what you claim to not to.](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/6140/terrain-above-the-vabbian-corridor-should-not-be-blocked-off-from-exploration "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/6140/terrain-above-the-vabbian-corridor-should-not-be-blocked-off-from-exploration") > > Perhaps I should have posted that in the bugs forum as a bug and not as a suggestion...since we've been asked in the past to let them know about invisible walls and such(which doesn't specifically make that an unsolicited suggestion now, does it?), but then that's a matter of semantics...and nothing came of it anyways, so I'm half correct in saying nothing has ever come of such a suggestion. Oh blah. That thread wasn't about a bug, since it is working as intended and you know it. Stop moving the goalposts and just admit that voicing thoughts is a natural and constructive part of being human. I can dig into your posting history and come up with example after example of unsolicited criticisms or opinions, given both to the game at large and to other players and ideas. If you know that someone is doing something wrong, it is a great disrespect to refuse to say anything. Countless ideas have been put into the game from player suggestion: A tier of gear higher than exotic, raids, mounts, repeatable hearts, dodge tutorial, colored combo rings, an indicator for condition duration in buildcraft, open roof cages during queen's gauntlet, open API to allow for non-cheating addons, countless rebalances in PVP and PVE, the entire Deadeye specialization, VO lines for the commander during new story instances, and many, many others. The fact that unsolicited suggestions and ideas and criticisms produce good things is substantial. ---------------------------------------------------------- > @"The Knight of Hope.8023" said: > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" I mean, it also bears pointing out that one need not solicit responses in a public conversation on Twitter. There is no such thing as permission to respond when someone puts themselves out in front of the public that way. The only reason why anybody would claim that this is a thing is because there was nothing rude or unkind about what was actually said by the gentleman who chose to respond. It's telling that what was actually said in that conversation is still not being quoted at all in reference to the idea that this person was being rude or uncalled for. That should go without saying. If there's a message in a public area and a "reply" button underneath, it is a given that people may reply in however they want (so long as it doesn't break community guidelines). Heck, in higher academics, classes quit being a teaching experience as much as it is a cooperative experience. All of my math and science professors are happy when I speak up in class, even if it is to correct their mistakes. The only people anyone wants to "sit down and shut up" are unruly children, and soldiers. The whole "you can't tell me what to do" thing... it's pure ego. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Knight of Hope.8023 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" That's a really good point that I considered pointing out; It's been my experience that people in highly technical fields like technology or mathematics actually LOVE to discuss what they do with laymen and students, specifically because they chose those fields out of a fascination with the subject matter. If someone isn't eager to discuss something they're highly interested in or help someone with a polite misunderstanding they might have about it, that's definitely a reflection upon their motivations. If someone doesn't volunteer the source of their disaffection like the former ArenaNET employee did in this instance, it's usually helpful at that point to apply Nietzsche's postulate in order to infer what that might be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klypto.1703 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 The guy this all started with he crossed the line in multiple ways because first that was the platform to discuss anything with the company first off. Then vaguely insulting (you can read between the lines and tell the intent was to insult her) the person causing employee #2 to come back her up explaining yet again he needed to get off her lawn. So in the end firing them for standing their ground with this person should be commended not result in them losing their job. Since now the leadership of anet has told would be persons they can go after their employees to get whatever they are after now. So if they still want to work there they should have their jobs back and let it be known going after your employees is not acceptable under any circumstance. Plus if you think about this in the real world it means if you tell some random person who follows you to your home and tell them to piss off and get off your lawn that you can be fired for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaklex.6308 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > > Did you know that I'm the reason why combo fields are color coded? It's true. I mean, I didn't personally program each of the combo fields, but it was a suggestion of mine. Back in the old forums I had a thread titled "Do what now? Or, why I'm no good at this game," and in it I talked about the absence of teaching tools for a complicated combat system. Particularly in contrast to other MMOs. I suspect that I'm directly responsible for a lot of things because of this, such as the dodge tutorials in low level zones, but color coded combo fields were one of the things I directly suggested and it is an idea that appeared nowhere else. On other issues, sometimes it might be an internal idea that I just happen to touch on, or maybe it is a popular complaint and I just haven't seen it anywhere else. But, those pretty little circles are mine. > > > > > > > > > > You're probably wondering what this has to do with anything. Here's the issue: if we directly take the line of thinking proposed by others here to say that Deroir has committed some kind of social sin in his tweets, and extend it logically to all similar circumstances, then we conclude that my suggestion for color coded combo rings was also some kind of social sin. Me, a non-professional, told seasoned professionals (many of whom are women) how to do their job unsolicited in a matter that is far more authoritarian than Deroir did. Not only that, but I've done it at least half a dozen times, making elaborate lists of problems and often having no real solutions due to a lack of creativity on my part. > > > > > > > > > > Never trust anyone who tells you not to think. When somebody says "Don't tell me how to do my job", what they are really saying is > > > > > > > > > > "You are not allowed to think about my work. > > > > > "You are not allowed to discuss the philosophy of the work. > > > > > "You are not allowed to make suggestions. > > > > > "You are not allowed to criticize or attempt to criticize my work. > > > > > "You are not allowed to tell me what you would like to see or would like to buy. > > > > > "You are not allowed to question my decisions, even if they don't make sense to you. > > > > > "You are not allowed to discuss my professionalism or behaviors. > > > > > "If you have a concern for the game, for myself, or for yourself, you are not allowed to voice them or even have them." > > > > > > > > > > Which is all obviously very silly. The conclusion is that telling somebody how to do their job is a _good thing_ because doing so produces good things. If you want to argue the contrary, then excuse me while I thump my bible here: (S)He who has never sinned may cast the first stone. Can you honestly say that you've never voiced an unsolicited suggestion or concern or criticism regarding class balance? Regarding allocation of development resources? Regarding game difficulty? Regarding WvW structuring? Regarding the economy? For any game you've ever played? For any media you consume? For every any transaction or exchange? And if not, have these unsolicited suggestions or concerns or criticisms never produced a good outcome? The idea is truly silly. > > > > > > > > > > It is obvious that Deroir did nothing wrong. There needs to exist some grand evidence to prove the contrary, and that evidence does not exist. > > > > > > > > Can I honestly say that I've NEVER voiced an UNSOLICITED suggestion or criticism...100% unequivocally YES. I've never, ever offered an UNSOLICITED suggestion for anything that did not have to do with the job I perform...why, because I don't know a kitten thing about the job. I have offered suggestions and criticism when it's been asked for, but I refuse to offer UNSOLICITED suggestions or criticisms, that's the easiest way to get yourself beat up(figuratively speaking of course) or dumped on. Even when I was a member of the Alpha team way back in the first couple of years I never offered UNSOLICITED suggestions, nor did I criticize anything...not until it was asked for did was that information put forth, but I did keep notes on what I might say when it was asked for. As far as I know none of my suggestions or criticisms have ever resulted in anything, so it's not silly to say that they produced a good outcome, because they produced no outcome. Also, I don't think responding to someone else's suggestion or criticism falls in the same category as it's usually stating why it might or might not work, or it might offer an alternative to the original suggestion(which I'm usually suggesting to the OP and not to whomever it's directed at). I think it's silly to suggest we might know more than the devs...we don't have the metrics or the numbers behind the metrics they do...which is a hell of a lot more important that feelings or other reasons. > > > > > > > > P.S. - I still don't see why we needed the combo fields color coded, it's not like you weren't told about them...but then I mostly play ranger so I guess it was easier for me to just figure them out(which is almost how I learn all things, I just figure them out on my own). > > > > > > [Here's a thread of you doing exactly what you claim to not to.](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/6140/terrain-above-the-vabbian-corridor-should-not-be-blocked-off-from-exploration "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/6140/terrain-above-the-vabbian-corridor-should-not-be-blocked-off-from-exploration") > > > > Perhaps I should have posted that in the bugs forum as a bug and not as a suggestion...since we've been asked in the past to let them know about invisible walls and such(which doesn't specifically make that an unsolicited suggestion now, does it?), but then that's a matter of semantics...and nothing came of it anyways, so I'm half correct in saying nothing has ever come of such a suggestion. > > Oh blah. That thread wasn't about a bug, since it is working as intended and you know it. Stop moving the goalposts and just admit that voicing thoughts is a natural and constructive part of being human. I can dig into your posting history and come up with example after example of unsolicited criticisms or opinions, given both to the game at large and to other players and ideas. If you know that someone is doing something wrong, it is a great disrespect to refuse to say anything. > > Countless ideas have been put into the game from player suggestion: A tier of gear higher than exotic, raids, mounts, repeatable hearts, dodge tutorial, colored combo rings, an indicator for condition duration in buildcraft, open roof cages during queen's gauntlet, open API to allow for non-cheating addons, countless rebalances in PVP and PVE, the entire Deadeye specialization, VO lines for the commander during new story instances, and many, many others. The fact that unsolicited suggestions and ideas and criticisms produce good things is substantial. ~snip~ It's not moving goalposts, it's a matter of semantics...and I do not know for sure that the area I was in was working as intended, especially since it wasn't all that difficult to get up there...and only have the one way up and down yet I could literally fly/move around the entire plateau, just couldn't get off of except in the one location where I got up on it. I'm also going to repeat something I said the first time, which covers your suggestion about searching my post history and saying you can find posts in others threads(which you can, because): "Also, I don't think responding to someone else's suggestion or criticism falls in the same category as it's usually stating why it might or might not work, or it might offer an alternative to the original suggestion(which I'm usually suggesting to the OP and not to whomever it's directed at). " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Knight of Hope.8023 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 @"Klypto.1703" Why do you have to read between the lines? Have you considered that you might be incorrect about that? It so happens that this gentleman was a huge fan of the former employee he was responding to. There's an earlier video of him gushing about how much he enjoyed her work and her AMA. The reality is, even if he had been being rude, it is improper to lash out and viciously libel someone as being hateful simply because you found something they said to you uncomfortable or unkind. No company on Earth wants to be represented in public by someone who publishes malicious responses to their customers and partners on social media. What ArenaNET did was well within their rights and ethical to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Klypto.1703" said: > you can read between the lines and tell the intent was to insult her. That's not what I read. Sorry... Guilty until proven innocent is so 2018. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > Did you know that I'm the reason why combo fields are color coded? It's true. I mean, I didn't personally program each of the combo fields, but it was a suggestion of mine. Back in the old forums I had a thread titled "Do what now? Or, why I'm no good at this game," and in it I talked about the absence of teaching tools for a complicated combat system. Particularly in contrast to other MMOs. I suspect that I'm directly responsible for a lot of things because of this, such as the dodge tutorials in low level zones, but color coded combo fields were one of the things I directly suggested and it is an idea that appeared nowhere else. On other issues, sometimes it might be an internal idea that I just happen to touch on, or maybe it is a popular complaint and I just haven't seen it anywhere else. But, those pretty little circles are mine. > > > > You're probably wondering what this has to do with anything. Here's the issue: if we directly take the line of thinking proposed by others here to say that Deroir has committed some kind of social sin in his tweets, and extend it logically to all similar circumstances, then we conclude that my suggestion for color coded combo rings was also some kind of social sin. Me, a non-professional, told seasoned professionals (many of whom are women) how to do their job unsolicited in a matter that is far more authoritarian than Deroir did. Not only that, but I've done it at least half a dozen times, making elaborate lists of problems and often having no real solutions due to a lack of creativity on my part. > > > > Never trust anyone who tells you not to think. When somebody says "Don't tell me how to do my job", what they are really saying is > > > > "You are not allowed to think about my work. > > "You are not allowed to discuss the philosophy of the work. > > "You are not allowed to make suggestions. > > "You are not allowed to criticize or attempt to criticize my work. > > "You are not allowed to tell me what you would like to see or would like to buy. > > "You are not allowed to question my decisions, even if they don't make sense to you. > > "You are not allowed to discuss my professionalism or behaviors. > > "If you have a concern for the game, for myself, or for yourself, you are not allowed to voice them or even have them." > > > > Which is all obviously very silly. The conclusion is that telling somebody how to do their job is a _good thing_ because doing so produces good things. If you want to argue the contrary, then excuse me while I thump my bible here: (S)He who has never sinned may cast the first stone. Can you honestly say that you've never voiced an unsolicited suggestion or concern or criticism regarding class balance? Regarding allocation of development resources? Regarding game difficulty? Regarding WvW structuring? Regarding the economy? For any game you've ever played? For any media you consume? For every any transaction or exchange? And if not, have these unsolicited suggestions or concerns or criticisms never produced a good outcome? The idea is truly silly. > > > > It is obvious that Deroir did nothing wrong. There needs to exist some grand evidence to prove the contrary, and that evidence does not exist. > > Can I honestly say that I've NEVER voiced an UNSOLICITED suggestion or criticism...100% unequivocally YES. I've never, ever offered an UNSOLICITED suggestion for anything that did not have to do with the job I perform...why, because I don't know a kitten thing about the job. I have offered suggestions and criticism when it's been asked for, but I refuse to offer UNSOLICITED suggestions or criticisms, that's the easiest way to get yourself beat up(figuratively speaking of course) or dumped on. Even when I was a member of the Alpha team way back in the first couple of years I never offered UNSOLICITED suggestions, nor did I criticize anything...not until it was asked for did was that information put forth, but I did keep notes on what I might say when it was asked for. As far as I know none of my suggestions or criticisms have ever resulted in anything, so it's not silly to say that they produced a good outcome, because they produced no outcome. Also, I don't think responding to someone else's suggestion or criticism falls in the same category as it's usually stating why it might or might not work, or it might offer an alternative to the original suggestion(which I'm usually suggesting to the OP and not to whomever it's directed at). I think it's silly to suggest we might know more than the devs...we don't have the metrics or the numbers behind the metrics they do...which is a hell of a lot more important that feelings or other reasons. > > P.S. - I still don't see why we needed the combo fields color coded, it's not like you weren't told about them...but then I mostly play ranger so I guess it was easier for me to just figure them out(which is almost how I learn all things, I just figure them out on my own). Well first, the guy knew something about the job, albeit not having the same level of experience. But it doesn't matter. As a SSE I question my architect all the time. It is -healthy- to do so. Always bring some fresh ideas on the table. Bringing ideas doesn't mean you're right at all. And if the ideas are stupid? Who cares! Brainstorming is never a bad thing .It's 101 software development. I completely disagree with Deroir's argument, I think it's unreasonable for many obvious reasons to do branching in GW2, but every once in a while it doesn't hurt to hear other's ideas. And now for a 101 business: Never insult your clients, which is what it comes back to when all the attempts to deviate the problem are gone, it is the one reason why ArenaNet did something. It's sad that it had to turn into a political issue. Enjoy the opportunism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Knight of Hope.8023 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 @"Deihnyx.6318" I find it pretty shocking nobody even points out what she said to libel him. She accused him of being up to no good based on the fact that he was male. How is that getting swept completely under the rug here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loli Ruri.8307 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Klypto.1703" said: > The guy this all started with he crossed the line in multiple ways because first that was the platform to discuss anything with the company first off. Then vaguely insulting (you can read between the lines and tell the intent was to insult her) the person causing employee #2 to come back her up explaining yet again he needed to get off her lawn. So in the end firing them for standing their ground with this person should be commended not result in them losing their job. Since now the leadership of anet has told would be persons they can go after their employees to get whatever they are after now. So if they still want to work there they should have their jobs back and let it be known going after your employees is not acceptable under any circumstance. Plus if you think about this in the real world it means if you tell some random person who follows you to your home and tell them to kitten off and get off your lawn that you can be fired for it. Not our decision. But some people would like to fool us into thinking it is our decision. July 4th was a holiday, she and he was fired July 5th morning first thing. So even if we try and say our opinions on what a successful company should or should not do, it's not our decision. We don't live in a Communist state, so we cannot make companies employ people who don't give a shit about hurting the company and it's customers. You can think you're right all day long. But think about this: Say your mother is treating you badly, because whatever reason. If you were to respond in a negative manner, even if you feel it's a just reason, you're still being rude, and people would side with your mom in most cases. It does not matter what you actually said, the action is a big fat NO.. If your mom is boss, you can be disciplined. Don't like it? Then move out. Sure there are unfair dismissal laws, at least here in Australia I know of them. But it's not like a boss can't fire you for things you actually did. The thing that makes me so sad these days, is how I know men and women can have reason and accountability, but it's more common nowadays for people who are entitled to lack reason and accountability. Everybody else understands the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"The Knight of Hope.8023" said: > @"Deihnyx.6318" I find it pretty shocking nobody even points out what she said to libel him. She accused him of being up to no good based on the fact that he was male. How is that getting swept completely under the rug here? Yep, it is obvious double standard, as perfectly demonstrated there: On https://www.polygon.com/2018/7/9/17549492/arenanet-jessica-price-guild-wars-2-writer-fired she said “Let’s be clear: In 2018, it’s absurd to pretend ignorance of what would happen to a woman fired for speaking about sexism, because he feels she got too uppity,” It's all political for those defending Jessica Price, whereas for Anet, this was a rational, business decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaklex.6308 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > Did you know that I'm the reason why combo fields are color coded? It's true. I mean, I didn't personally program each of the combo fields, but it was a suggestion of mine. Back in the old forums I had a thread titled "Do what now? Or, why I'm no good at this game," and in it I talked about the absence of teaching tools for a complicated combat system. Particularly in contrast to other MMOs. I suspect that I'm directly responsible for a lot of things because of this, such as the dodge tutorials in low level zones, but color coded combo fields were one of the things I directly suggested and it is an idea that appeared nowhere else. On other issues, sometimes it might be an internal idea that I just happen to touch on, or maybe it is a popular complaint and I just haven't seen it anywhere else. But, those pretty little circles are mine. > > > > > > You're probably wondering what this has to do with anything. Here's the issue: if we directly take the line of thinking proposed by others here to say that Deroir has committed some kind of social sin in his tweets, and extend it logically to all similar circumstances, then we conclude that my suggestion for color coded combo rings was also some kind of social sin. Me, a non-professional, told seasoned professionals (many of whom are women) how to do their job unsolicited in a matter that is far more authoritarian than Deroir did. Not only that, but I've done it at least half a dozen times, making elaborate lists of problems and often having no real solutions due to a lack of creativity on my part. > > > > > > Never trust anyone who tells you not to think. When somebody says "Don't tell me how to do my job", what they are really saying is > > > > > > "You are not allowed to think about my work. > > > "You are not allowed to discuss the philosophy of the work. > > > "You are not allowed to make suggestions. > > > "You are not allowed to criticize or attempt to criticize my work. > > > "You are not allowed to tell me what you would like to see or would like to buy. > > > "You are not allowed to question my decisions, even if they don't make sense to you. > > > "You are not allowed to discuss my professionalism or behaviors. > > > "If you have a concern for the game, for myself, or for yourself, you are not allowed to voice them or even have them." > > > > > > Which is all obviously very silly. The conclusion is that telling somebody how to do their job is a _good thing_ because doing so produces good things. If you want to argue the contrary, then excuse me while I thump my bible here: (S)He who has never sinned may cast the first stone. Can you honestly say that you've never voiced an unsolicited suggestion or concern or criticism regarding class balance? Regarding allocation of development resources? Regarding game difficulty? Regarding WvW structuring? Regarding the economy? For any game you've ever played? For any media you consume? For every any transaction or exchange? And if not, have these unsolicited suggestions or concerns or criticisms never produced a good outcome? The idea is truly silly. > > > > > > It is obvious that Deroir did nothing wrong. There needs to exist some grand evidence to prove the contrary, and that evidence does not exist. > > > > Can I honestly say that I've NEVER voiced an UNSOLICITED suggestion or criticism...100% unequivocally YES. I've never, ever offered an UNSOLICITED suggestion for anything that did not have to do with the job I perform...why, because I don't know a kitten thing about the job. I have offered suggestions and criticism when it's been asked for, but I refuse to offer UNSOLICITED suggestions or criticisms, that's the easiest way to get yourself beat up(figuratively speaking of course) or dumped on. Even when I was a member of the Alpha team way back in the first couple of years I never offered UNSOLICITED suggestions, nor did I criticize anything...not until it was asked for did was that information put forth, but I did keep notes on what I might say when it was asked for. As far as I know none of my suggestions or criticisms have ever resulted in anything, so it's not silly to say that they produced a good outcome, because they produced no outcome. Also, I don't think responding to someone else's suggestion or criticism falls in the same category as it's usually stating why it might or might not work, or it might offer an alternative to the original suggestion(which I'm usually suggesting to the OP and not to whomever it's directed at). I think it's silly to suggest we might know more than the devs...we don't have the metrics or the numbers behind the metrics they do...which is a hell of a lot more important that feelings or other reasons. > > > > P.S. - I still don't see why we needed the combo fields color coded, it's not like you weren't told about them...but then I mostly play ranger so I guess it was easier for me to just figure them out(which is almost how I learn all things, I just figure them out on my own). > > Well first, the guy knew something about the job, albeit not having the same level of experience. But it doesn't matter. As a SSE I question my architect all the time. It is -healthy- to do so. Always bring some fresh ideas on the table. Bringing ideas doesn't mean you're right at all. > And if the ideas are stupid? Who cares! Brainstorming is never a bad thing .It's 101 software development. I completely disagree with Deroir's argument, I think it's unreasonable for many obvious reasons to do branching in GW2, but every once in a while it doesn't hurt to hear other's ideas. > And now for a 101 business: Never insult your clients, which is what it comes back to when all the attempts to deviate the problem are gone, it is the one reason why ArenaNet did something. It's sad that it had to turn into a political issue. Enjoy the opportunism. It might be Software Development 101, but I'd still rather be asked for my feedback then just providing it out of the blue...I would tend to think it would be more welcome if you were responding to a request for feedback than just throwing it out there on your own. Do I give feedback at my job to superiors, of course, because I know my job and I know what will make things work smoother and give us a moral boost and improve the happiness of the workforce, don't really care about the customers in this case. Many businesses are moving away from the "the customer is always right" model, I'll bet very slowly, but they are starting to realize that the customer is not always right...and advising them in a reasonable manner shouldn't be looked down up(you'll notice I said reasonable and not polite or capitulating). Anyways, people can interpret what people type in the internet any way they want unless you include the proper descriptive wording so as to not cause any confusion on the readers part, which if we all did that would double the length of sometimes already extremely long posts, and it would make those short posts seem more normal in size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sondergaard.8469 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 > @"omgitsbees.8137" said: > > @"Bandlero.6312" said: > > Honestly, none of the "debate" and discussion really matters for 1 really simple, important reason: > > > > None of us know what the terms of their employment contracts were with ArenaNet. Since their employment was terminated, they very likely did in-fact violate the terms of their employment (aka did wrong.) Also, they were also probably let go with generous severance packages. > > ArenaNet is located in Washington State, there likely was no contract. An employer can fire someone for any reason there. Let's put it in a different setting.... A manager at McDonald's decides to host a public AMA in their store. They invite customers to come and ask questions about what it's like running a McDonald's and discuss some of the challenges they face in their business. Then after the AMA ends, the manager clocks out, but is still hanging out in front of the store talking to a group of customers that stuck around after the official event. They go on a monologue about some of the difficulties of working at McDonald's, and finish up their monologue with, "Yeah... I don't see how we can implement custom orders in a way that makes sense and will satisfy everyone. Everyone likes their cheeseburgers different." Then one of the customers chimes in and says, "I really enjoyed what you said. If you'll allow me to disagree slightly, I don't think the issue is with cheeseburgers, but with the system used for ordering them. What if you just had a basic burger and a system that allowed people to select add-ons to adjust the burger to their taste?" To which the manager responds, "A day in the life as a McDonald's manager. Here, a random person telling me how to do my job, as if they fucking know." So the customer, shocked by this outburst, says, "Oh, my apologies. I really meant no offense, I was just trying to have a friendly discussion," and then leaves. Another customer, who had come to the store with the customer who just got publicly humiliated for sharing their opinion, chimes in and says to the manager, "Hey that really wasn't called for." To which the manager retorts by cussing everyone out, including the people who really hadn't said anything beyond shocked gasps, and telling them that they aren't on the clock, this is their private time, and if the people hanging out don't like it, they can leave. Do you think when word got around to McDonald's Corporate that this manager would have a job the next day? So they get fired, and proceed to run around to everyone who will listen claiming it was because they were defending themselves against condescending comments and verbal attacks. That the CEO of McDonald's is sexist. That it's just because of their gender that any of this happened. Wait, what? Exactly. So what happened to taking responsibility for their own actions? Being an adult, and acknowledging they made mistakes? That they should have handled this situation better? That they overreacted? Nope.. not at all. McDonald's is the villain here, and so is the customer who dared to share their opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Knight of Hope.8023 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 @"Sondergaard.8469" That's been the saddest part of all of this to me, is seeing people defend the indefensible Just to protect a member of their ideological faction. It's nothing short of madness. I don't understand how people think defending this lady in any way helps the case for their ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"The Knight of Hope.8023" said: > @"Sondergaard.8469" That's been the saddest part of all of this to me, is seeing people defend the indefensible Just to protect a member of their ideological faction. It's nothing short of madness. I don't understand how people think defending this lady in any way helps the case for their ideas. It's quite the opposite actually. Defending blatant case of unprofessionalism helps nobody, and certainly not devs who actually face issues like sexism and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrolan.9608 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 Another good askagamedev post on this topic: http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/175852248736/i-dont-really-get-it-if-gamers-dont-know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Knight of Hope.8023 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 @"Deihnyx.6318" Exactly; There's also a crying wolf aspect to this that nobody seems to appreciate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"morrolan.9608" said: > Another good askagamedev post on this topic: http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/175852248736/i-dont-really-get-it-if-gamers-dont-know > Just because you have a reason for something, which everyone here knows she had a reason, albeit an extremely stupid reason, no matter how many devs give their personal OPINION. The problem is, her reaction, in a public place. Having a crappy reason for doing something does not give you free rein to be disrespectful on purpose. Not only did she alienate the person who disagreed with her, she alienated much of the player base with the things she said, weather she thought she was not representing the company (which she was, its not even a question). Alienating your player base is not good for business. From what I can see though, only the silly minority is defending this.... it just so happens that the minority seems to also be for the most part in control of the people pushing the narrative we are seeing spread throughout the defending side. It does help that JP is pretty good at continuing to hurt that very narrative with her constant vocal attacks in those very articles defending her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Knight of Hope.8023 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" Well stated; To some degree, these are all various forms of nihilism, stemming from a combination of varying degrees of narcissism and cynicism, sometimes hidden behind a pretense of compassion. This lady's defenders can't genuinely think they're making a strong case for their ideas to others. The reality is, they don't care about making a good case to their skeptics. They've already determined that we're beneath contempt. Those who would defend this behavior from this lady, (which they would never accept from anyone else,) for no other reason than ideological affiliation are effectively cramming their ideas down society's throat rather than arguing for them. 'The ends justify the means' really is the be-all end-all description for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fizzypetal.7936 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"morrolan.9608" said: > Another good askagamedev post on this topic: http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/175852248736/i-dont-really-get-it-if-gamers-dont-know > Interesting perspective that I had not considered. On revisiting Deroir's tweets that started the storm, I realised that he had not asked a question - he made a closed comment that didn't invite further discussion. Deroir's 4 tweets in response to JP's 'AMA' reads a bit like a drive by. I can see why she might have been annoyed, though I can't see sexism in anything Deroir said. I wonder if the outcome would have been any different had Deroir framed his thoughts as a question and left the last tweet open ended and inviting of further discourse. Unfortunately, English isn't Deroir's first language so I see his attempt to engage as clumsy rather than intending any harm. I also have the benefit of hindsight. Deroir streamed shortly after the Devs left ANet, and in it a viewer linked a stream previous to the Twitter debacle that showed Deroir expressing his appreciation of JP's work, calling her a 'god'. Irrespective of my understanding of why JP exploded, I stand by my opinion: so long as JP was displaying working for ArenaNet in her profile, she should have responded to Deroir politely if she could not ignore his tweets. Stating the obvious, responding politely or ignoring the tweets would have caused no harm and she and PF would still have their jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaklex.6308 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"The Knight of Hope.8023" said: > @"Sondergaard.8469" That's been the saddest part of all of this to me, is seeing people defend the indefensible Just to protect a member of their ideological faction. It's nothing short of madness. I don't understand how people think defending this lady in any way helps the case for their ideas. Except that there isn't a single thing in this world that isn't defensible by someone or another...in other words, someone, somewhere will defend anything, no matter what that thing it or how wrong it might be, there's always someone out there that agrees with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Knight of Hope.8023 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 @"Zaklex.6308" We'd probably have to have a pretty lengthy discussion to resolve that issue; But to try to put it simply, the problem is that you're talking about an unworkable definition of 'defensible'. I would say an action is defensible if it can be defended without contradicting the values and principles that your defense of that action is predicated on. If you put forward the idea that people should not have freedom of speech by speaking freely, for instance, then you'd be pushing an indefensible position. Your defense of that idea would assume the point that you'd be making was untrue. This problem of contradiction is at the heart of many of the flaws with the defenses people have been giving here for what this lady did when she went after this guy on Twitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"fizzypetal.7936" said: > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > Another good askagamedev post on this topic: http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/175852248736/i-dont-really-get-it-if-gamers-dont-know > > > > Interesting perspective that I had not considered. On revisiting Deroir's tweets that started the storm, I realised that he had not asked a question - he made a closed comment that didn't invite further discussion. Deroir's 4 tweets in response to JP's 'AMA' reads a bit like a drive by. I can see why she might have been annoyed, though I can't see sexism in anything Deroir said. > > I wonder if the outcome would have been any different had Deroir framed his thoughts as a question and left the last tweet open ended and inviting of further discourse. > > Unfortunately, English isn't Deroir's first language so I see his attempt to engage as clumsy rather than intending any harm. I also have the benefit of hindsight. Deroir streamed shortly after the Devs left ANet, and in it a viewer linked a stream previous to the Twitter debacle that showed Deroir expressing his appreciation of JP's work, calling her a 'god'. > > Irrespective of my understanding of why JP exploded, I stand by my opinion: so long as JP was displaying working for ArenaNet in her profile, she should have responded to Deroir politely if she could not ignore his tweets. Stating the obvious, responding politely or ignoring the tweets would have caused no harm and she and PF would still have their jobs. When he said "I believe" he opened it up as a discussion, since it creates opportunity for you to respond. Unlike an opinion, a belief is generally based on a lack of evidence and experience.... in other words he was kind of saying "im not an expert, but i think this". As the 'expert' (who only joined the team after they stopped using before she joined btw) she would have the grounds to object and correct his belief with her opinion, furthering the discussion. She chose a more destructive path as you already state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fizzypetal.7936 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 > @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said: > > @"fizzypetal.7936" said: > > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > Another good askagamedev post on this topic: http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/175852248736/i-dont-really-get-it-if-gamers-dont-know > > > > > > > Interesting perspective that I had not considered. On revisiting Deroir's tweets that started the storm, I realised that he had not asked a question - he made a closed comment that didn't invite further discussion. Deroir's 4 tweets in response to JP's 'AMA' reads a bit like a drive by. I can see why she might have been annoyed, though I can't see sexism in anything Deroir said. > > > > I wonder if the outcome would have been any different had Deroir framed his thoughts as a question and left the last tweet open ended and inviting of further discourse. > > > > Unfortunately, English isn't Deroir's first language so I see his attempt to engage as clumsy rather than intending any harm. I also have the benefit of hindsight. Deroir streamed shortly after the Devs left ANet, and in it a viewer linked a stream previous to the Twitter debacle that showed Deroir expressing his appreciation of JP's work, calling her a 'god'. > > > > Irrespective of my understanding of why JP exploded, I stand by my opinion: so long as JP was displaying working for ArenaNet in her profile, she should have responded to Deroir politely if she could not ignore his tweets. Stating the obvious, responding politely or ignoring the tweets would have caused no harm and she and PF would still have their jobs. > > When he said "I believe" he opened it up as a discussion, since it creates opportunity for you to respond. Unlike an opinion, a belief is generally based on a lack of evidence and experience.... in other words he was kind of saying "im not an expert, but i think this". > As the 'expert' (who only joined the team after they stopped using before she joined btw) she would have the grounds to object and correct his belief with her opinion, furthering the discussion. > She chose a more destructive path as you already state. What Deroir said (copied & pasted from Twitter) > Really interesting thread to read! ? > However, allow me to disagree *slightly*. I dont believe the issue lies in the MMORPG genre itself (as your wording seemingly suggest). I believe the issue lies in the contraints of the Living Story's narrative design; (1 of 3) > > When you want the outcome to be the same across the board for all players' experiences, then yes, by design you are extremely limited in how you can contruct the personality of the PC. (2 of 3) > > But, if instead players were given the option to meaningfully express *their* character through branching dialogue options (which also aren't just on the checklist for an achievement that forces you through all dialogue options), (3 of 4 cause I count seemingly...) > > then perhaps players would be more invested in the roleplaying aspect of that particular MMORPG. > Nonetheless, I appreciate the insightful thread! (End) Let me say first -that in my view there is nothing wrong with what Deroir said. I think because Deroir ended his tweets with the closed statement _Nonetheless, I appreciate the insightful thread!_ - it doesn't really indicate he wanted to continue the conversation. If there were cues before that last sentence, they were lost by the way Deroir worded the final tweet in his thread. I can see how JP thought Deroir was yet another _person_ telling her how to do her job. _Notice I left out the gender._ That I can see that one point from JPs POV doesn't mean that I also think that is what Deroir was doing - I don't. I've said before I thought it was a clumsy attempt on Deroir's part, in trying to engage in a conversation about a topic with someone he respected and admired. Calling people names, implying Deroir was sexist, saying she doesn't have to 'pretend to like' fans and insinuating fans expect from her some form of prostitution was inexcusable and insulting to all fans, regardless of gender. In my world, that JP interpreted Deroir's comments as unsolicited opinion was not Deroirs fault. JP chose to take that view and then some. She could have ignored Deroir or reported him to ArenaNet the next day if she felt that aggrieved. She handled it all horribly and continued to do so days after the fact. Conversations face to face can be tricky - with social media you have the added challenge of zero verbal or facial cues. English is my first language and I struggle daily with stringing words together that get my meaning across the way I intend. Imagine trying to do that with more than one language...eek! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 It's sad that women need to prove they are more competent than most men to be taken seriously. However, knocking peoples' socks off with your competence at least has the _potential_ to change the mindset of some of the people who hold such prejudices, consciously or unconsciously. Punching one of them in the face (figuratively speaking) may (or may not) get that one person to shut up, but it's going to trigger retaliatory sallies by others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now