Lord Trejgon.2809 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Koen.1327" said: > > @"Twyn.7320" said: > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Adotiln Urthadar.1823" said: > > > > > > > > > This was a very cowardly action. You have lost an incredible amount of respect in my eyes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most of the people gained respect from anet for firing those 2 aggressive employers. but somehow you lost respect? awkward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most of the people here are male reactionaries so yeah they loves bullying especially females > > > > > > > females get told how to do their job better all the time > > > > > > > > > > > > Why are you automatically assuming anyone's gender based on their viewpoints? That's pretty sexist in and of itself. > > > > > > > > > > how come ruling that the majority of the people here are reactionaries males is sexist? the analyzes of that is true, like for most of the games if not all. > > > > > > > > > > i'm not all in favor of statistical analyzes but females are underrepresented in in games, playing or developing, and that's not because females are inferior to males (that there is competition to begin with is another problem). > > > > > > > > Where are you pulling your data from to prove this is the truth? Let alone this is a single thread on the forums, not the entire game (let alone "most of the games"). > > > > > > > > Let alone assuming someone's gender based off their beliefs is horribly wrong, especially when in this thread alone there are people of different genders on both "sides" of the argument (and IMO there are more than 2 sides, it's not just black and white). > > > > > > my comment was based on what Draco said "most of the people gained respect from anet". As the story here is classic misogyny and most the people think this is okay i can only rule them are reactionary males. It also confirms my experience of playing online for about 15 years. Not sure if we have the same idea in mind but there is constant sexism (and other forms of oppressing ) in the chat, like 24/7 - and yes, in every game i've played. > > > > How about instead of labelling everyone that feels that this is the right decision as 'reactionary males', which in itself is sexist, as I'm not a reactionary or male, thank you, you could start assessing why it's not the right decision. Provide some points rather than throwing insults at a wall and hoping that some of them stick. In this instance, you're not making the debate any better. > > > > The story here isn't classic misogyny at all, it's the rational response to an employee sabotaging the company's business. Remove gender from the equation, despite the hypocrisy in the person's views. Is it okay for an employee to start a witch hunt on two affiliates because of disagreements? No. What did she do? She shot the two affiliates down for valid criticism and publicly set them up to be witch-hunted by her followers. That's not professional at all, and the moment that she put 'ArenaNet Narrative Team' in her bio is the moment that the profile turned from private/personal to public. If you disagree, that's fine, but that's how consumerism works. > > > > As for sexism in gaming, does it exist? Obviously. It works all ways, as does racism, homophobia, being heterosexual, transphobia, all of the categories that we have, someone will be offensive to someone else, using any part of their identity. To ignore that it happens to white people is ignorance, to ignore that it happens to straight people is ignorance, to ignore that it happens to males is ignorance, and so on. > > > > Also, I don't know where you're getting representation statistics from, but it's actually impossible to measure this. For this to work, you'd need every company to agree to share player information to cross-reference whether the same players are playing in different games and whether they're male or female. All studies with gender statistics always state: 'From a sample of 1,000 people or another arbitrary number'. That sample size is always too small, so gaming companies have adapted to view it as basically 50/50 or 52/48 in favour of males or females, depending on the genre. > > > > In terms of game development, females are being equally represented through the production of narratives. See games such as Gears of War 5, Tomb Raider, Horizon: Zero Dawn, The Last of Us 2, The Walking Dead (Telltale), Star Wars Battlefront 2, Assassin's Creed: Odyssey (the demo was shown with a female for corporate reasons), Hellblade, Nier: Automata, Gravity Rush 2, Battlefield 5 (War Stories). I appreciate that you've had individual experiences across 15 years, but so has everyone. Have I been told to go to a kitchen? Yah, obviously. What did I say? 'Go back to your garage.' Gasp, I was sexist back! Suddenly, they stopped, because they found it all 'weak memes'. Well, there we go, crisis averted. Thick skin rules out. > > > > Could there be more female-focused narratives? Yah, definitely. Do I want them to force representation down my throat? No, because they always make bad narratives. A story that's made on the grounds of political activism always fails, and damages the credibility of the movement that they're trying to support. If you disagree, you do you, but don't throw every critic under the bus because they don't share your views, unless you have evidence to state otherwise. <3 > > cheering on a female losing her job is reactionary, regardless of her actions as it doesn't solve the problem (maybe for anet temporarily). > > it's very misogynist as in this context the male managers have set the standards, so regardless of if it hits their male oriented business or does damage to it. also she is the one being targeted the most and not this peter, people have decided who should be bullied most when the consequences for them were the same before the hunt. > I have no idea what you are smoking bro at this point but I'd advise you to change dealer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StinVec.3621 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Xenon.4537" said: > Good. I hope someone more decent and deserving gets the job. Someone who values the fans and has the ability to communicate with civility and manners. I'm not sure of what effect this situation may have on the future narrative of the game, but I would really like to see [shrikeTalon](https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/members/showposts/Shriketalon-1937/4 "ShrikeTalon")'s history of beautifully-crafted [story](https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lwd/To-Merge-the-Personal-and-Living-Stories "story") and [content concepts](https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi/Collaborative-Development-Topic-Living-World "content concepts") that they had posted while active on the old forums if a new direction is being considered for direction of the game narrative in the future. Perhaps ANet might consider reviewing their material for ideas if they are needed until a new equilibrium is found with the narrative team after its positions are filled again. Perhaps they may even reach out to them in some manner regarding any potentially available positions in the narrative team if they find their concepts to be desirable for future narrative designs. Unfortunately, they've [not been active](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/profile/discussions/Shriketalon.1937 "not been active") on the new forums, which saddens me, but they were quite active on the old forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koen.1327 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > @"Asudementio.8526" said: > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > @"WizardShotTheFood.3712" said: > > > > I just want you to know that I have uninstalled Guild Wars 2, and your pathetic capitulation to a bunch of whiny little neckbeards is why. > > > > > > Heaven forbid people be held accountable for their actions. > > > > I sympathize with wizardshotthefood. > > > > It's pretty obvious the influx of "concerned" GW2 players who are parroting some form of "oh i just bought this game today but i saw this tweet and now will never play this game again!" or "i was typing in my credit card to buy 300 dollars worth of gems but now i am going to go spend my money on a more worthwhile cause like burning it in a field" are blatant trolls and is due to this incident making the rounds on right-wing gaming spheres. Anet took the hardline stance those communities wanted and in doing so has empowered them- drawing them to off-site GW2 boards/forums. Their presence is worse for this game's health than one ignorant dev who had a twitter spat. > > > > It would be reasonable to get out before the GG storm hits GW2 again.. > > I would argue that they are equally bad. This incident created a PR nightmare and those can end companies. > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > @"Twyn.7320" said: > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Adotiln Urthadar.1823" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > This was a very cowardly action. You have lost an incredible amount of respect in my eyes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most of the people gained respect from anet for firing those 2 aggressive employers. but somehow you lost respect? awkward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most of the people here are male reactionaries so yeah they loves bullying especially females > > > > > > > > > > females get told how to do their job better all the time > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why are you automatically assuming anyone's gender based on their viewpoints? That's pretty sexist in and of itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how come ruling that the majority of the people here are reactionaries males is sexist? the analyzes of that is true, like for most of the games if not all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i'm not all in favor of statistical analyzes but females are underrepresented in in games, playing or developing, and that's not because females are inferior to males (that there is competition to begin with is another problem). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where are you pulling your data from to prove this is the truth? Let alone this is a single thread on the forums, not the entire game (let alone "most of the games"). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let alone assuming someone's gender based off their beliefs is horribly wrong, especially when in this thread alone there are people of different genders on both "sides" of the argument (and IMO there are more than 2 sides, it's not just black and white). > > > > > > > > > > > > my comment was based on what Draco said "most of the people gained respect from anet". As the story here is classic misogyny and most the people think this is okay i can only rule them are reactionary males. It also confirms my experience of playing online for about 15 years. Not sure if we have the same idea in mind but there is constant sexism (and other forms of oppressing ) in the chat, like 24/7 - and yes, in every game i've played. > > > > > > > > > > How about instead of labelling everyone that feels that this is the right decision as 'reactionary males', which in itself is sexist, as I'm not a reactionary or male, thank you, you could start assessing why it's not the right decision. Provide some points rather than throwing insults at a wall and hoping that some of them stick. In this instance, you're not making the debate any better. > > > > > > > > > > The story here isn't classic misogyny at all, it's the rational response to an employee sabotaging the company's business. Remove gender from the equation, despite the hypocrisy in the person's views. Is it okay for an employee to start a witch hunt on two affiliates because of disagreements? No. What did she do? She shot the two affiliates down for valid criticism and publicly set them up to be witch-hunted by her followers. That's not professional at all, and the moment that she put 'ArenaNet Narrative Team' in her bio is the moment that the profile turned from private/personal to public. If you disagree, that's fine, but that's how consumerism works. > > > > > > > > > > As for sexism in gaming, does it exist? Obviously. It works all ways, as does racism, homophobia, being heterosexual, transphobia, all of the categories that we have, someone will be offensive to someone else, using any part of their identity. To ignore that it happens to white people is ignorance, to ignore that it happens to straight people is ignorance, to ignore that it happens to males is ignorance, and so on. > > > > > > > > > > Also, I don't know where you're getting representation statistics from, but it's actually impossible to measure this. For this to work, you'd need every company to agree to share player information to cross-reference whether the same players are playing in different games and whether they're male or female. All studies with gender statistics always state: 'From a sample of 1,000 people or another arbitrary number'. That sample size is always too small, so gaming companies have adapted to view it as basically 50/50 or 52/48 in favour of males or females, depending on the genre. > > > > > > > > > > In terms of game development, females are being equally represented through the production of narratives. See games such as Gears of War 5, Tomb Raider, Horizon: Zero Dawn, The Last of Us 2, The Walking Dead (Telltale), Star Wars Battlefront 2, Assassin's Creed: Odyssey (the demo was shown with a female for corporate reasons), Hellblade, Nier: Automata, Gravity Rush 2, Battlefield 5 (War Stories). I appreciate that you've had individual experiences across 15 years, but so has everyone. Have I been told to go to a kitchen? Yah, obviously. What did I say? 'Go back to your garage.' Gasp, I was sexist back! Suddenly, they stopped, because they found it all 'weak memes'. Well, there we go, crisis averted. Thick skin rules out. > > > > > > > > > > Could there be more female-focused narratives? Yah, definitely. Do I want them to force representation down my throat? No, because they always make bad narratives. A story that's made on the grounds of political activism always fails, and damages the credibility of the movement that they're trying to support. If you disagree, you do you, but don't throw every critic under the bus because they don't share your views, unless you have evidence to state otherwise. <3 > > > > > > > > cheering on a female losing her job is reactionary, regardless of her actions as it doesn't solve the problem (maybe for anet temporarily). > > > > > > > > it's very misogynist as in this context the male managers have set the standards, so regardless of if it hits their male oriented business or does damage to it. also she is the one being targeted the most and not this peter, people have decided who should be bullied most when the consequences for them were the same before the hunt. > > > > > > > > I don't know all those games but tomb raider is extremely sexist as female representation. a story that fits reactionary purposes is very political and is often more successful than not (for games, music, movies, most of the entertainment industry actually, keeping it male dominated) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is holding someone accountable for their actions targeting them? That makes no sense at all and just comes across as a lot of mental gymnastics. > > > > holding her accountable are just some fancy words to blossom the fact the she's being bullied the most in this story. a bunch of internet warriors jumping her is justified why exactly? who set the standards? > > A bunch of internet warriors jumping her? Like who? Like her following that she pointed at Deroir labeling him "sexist" for making constructive criticism? She is being held accountable for her actions, it is as simple as that. If we can't hold people accountable for their actions then what can we do anymore? like everyone who is cheering that she lost her job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asudementio.8526 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > Right, I am not disagreeing, it was in extremely bad taste to revel in anyone's death regardless of the cause of death. Also, for all we know that may have also played a part in this, who knows? Only the people at Arenanet (and likely only the higher ups) truly know and all we can do is speculate. Is her Twitter post what you would call reveling? I didn't realize people were so sensitive today. Good on you to backtrack saying that TB was able to be criticized, because his death is used as a bludgeon against anyone who dares to point out how toxic and irresponsible he was throughout large swathes of his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FyzE.3472 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"WizardShotTheFood.3712" said: > I just want you to know that I have uninstalled Guild Wars 2, and your pathetic capitulation to a bunch of whiny little neckbeards is why. Good for us! Thanks for sharing though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoitios.8375 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Asudementio.8526" said: > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > Right, I am not disagreeing, it was in extremely bad taste to revel in anyone's death regardless of the cause of death. Also, for all we know that may have also played a part in this, who knows? Only the people at Arenanet (and likely only the higher ups) truly know and all we can do is speculate. > > Is her Twitter post what you would call reveling? I didn't realize people were so sensitive today. Good on you to backtrack saying that TB was able to be criticized, because his death is used as a bludgeon against anyone who dares to point out how toxic and irresponsible he was throughout large swathes of his career. Did I ever say he wasn't toxic or irresponsible? No. I personally never cared for him or his content; however, there is a difference between being critical of his work posthumously and being glad he is dead. Which is what she said in her post. There is a line to be drawn there, and should be drawn there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asudementio.8526 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > A bunch of internet warriors jumping her? Like who? Like her following that she pointed at Deroir labeling him "sexist" for making constructive criticism? She is being held accountable for her actions, it is as simple as that. If we can't hold people accountable for their actions then what can we do anymore? It's possible to hold people accountable for their actions without following the playbook of a bunch of whiny channers and signalling to the world that you side with the toxic underbelly of the internet because they can brigade and make themselves loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FyzE.3472 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Koen.1327" said: > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > @"Twyn.7320" said: > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Adotiln Urthadar.1823" said: > > > > > > > > > > > This was a very cowardly action. You have lost an incredible amount of respect in my eyes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most of the people gained respect from anet for firing those 2 aggressive employers. but somehow you lost respect? awkward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most of the people here are male reactionaries so yeah they loves bullying especially females > > > > > > > > > females get told how to do their job better all the time > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why are you automatically assuming anyone's gender based on their viewpoints? That's pretty sexist in and of itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how come ruling that the majority of the people here are reactionaries males is sexist? the analyzes of that is true, like for most of the games if not all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i'm not all in favor of statistical analyzes but females are underrepresented in in games, playing or developing, and that's not because females are inferior to males (that there is competition to begin with is another problem). > > > > > > > > > > > > Where are you pulling your data from to prove this is the truth? Let alone this is a single thread on the forums, not the entire game (let alone "most of the games"). > > > > > > > > > > > > Let alone assuming someone's gender based off their beliefs is horribly wrong, especially when in this thread alone there are people of different genders on both "sides" of the argument (and IMO there are more than 2 sides, it's not just black and white). > > > > > > > > > > my comment was based on what Draco said "most of the people gained respect from anet". As the story here is classic misogyny and most the people think this is okay i can only rule them are reactionary males. It also confirms my experience of playing online for about 15 years. Not sure if we have the same idea in mind but there is constant sexism (and other forms of oppressing ) in the chat, like 24/7 - and yes, in every game i've played. > > > > > > > > How about instead of labelling everyone that feels that this is the right decision as 'reactionary males', which in itself is sexist, as I'm not a reactionary or male, thank you, you could start assessing why it's not the right decision. Provide some points rather than throwing insults at a wall and hoping that some of them stick. In this instance, you're not making the debate any better. > > > > > > > > The story here isn't classic misogyny at all, it's the rational response to an employee sabotaging the company's business. Remove gender from the equation, despite the hypocrisy in the person's views. Is it okay for an employee to start a witch hunt on two affiliates because of disagreements? No. What did she do? She shot the two affiliates down for valid criticism and publicly set them up to be witch-hunted by her followers. That's not professional at all, and the moment that she put 'ArenaNet Narrative Team' in her bio is the moment that the profile turned from private/personal to public. If you disagree, that's fine, but that's how consumerism works. > > > > > > > > As for sexism in gaming, does it exist? Obviously. It works all ways, as does racism, homophobia, being heterosexual, transphobia, all of the categories that we have, someone will be offensive to someone else, using any part of their identity. To ignore that it happens to white people is ignorance, to ignore that it happens to straight people is ignorance, to ignore that it happens to males is ignorance, and so on. > > > > > > > > Also, I don't know where you're getting representation statistics from, but it's actually impossible to measure this. For this to work, you'd need every company to agree to share player information to cross-reference whether the same players are playing in different games and whether they're male or female. All studies with gender statistics always state: 'From a sample of 1,000 people or another arbitrary number'. That sample size is always too small, so gaming companies have adapted to view it as basically 50/50 or 52/48 in favour of males or females, depending on the genre. > > > > > > > > In terms of game development, females are being equally represented through the production of narratives. See games such as Gears of War 5, Tomb Raider, Horizon: Zero Dawn, The Last of Us 2, The Walking Dead (Telltale), Star Wars Battlefront 2, Assassin's Creed: Odyssey (the demo was shown with a female for corporate reasons), Hellblade, Nier: Automata, Gravity Rush 2, Battlefield 5 (War Stories). I appreciate that you've had individual experiences across 15 years, but so has everyone. Have I been told to go to a kitchen? Yah, obviously. What did I say? 'Go back to your garage.' Gasp, I was sexist back! Suddenly, they stopped, because they found it all 'weak memes'. Well, there we go, crisis averted. Thick skin rules out. > > > > > > > > Could there be more female-focused narratives? Yah, definitely. Do I want them to force representation down my throat? No, because they always make bad narratives. A story that's made on the grounds of political activism always fails, and damages the credibility of the movement that they're trying to support. If you disagree, you do you, but don't throw every critic under the bus because they don't share your views, unless you have evidence to state otherwise. <3 > > > > > > cheering on a female losing her job is reactionary, regardless of her actions as it doesn't solve the problem (maybe for anet temporarily). > > > > > > it's very misogynist as in this context the male managers have set the standards, so regardless of if it hits their male oriented business or does damage to it. also she is the one being targeted the most and not this peter, people have decided who should be bullied most when the consequences for them were the same before the hunt. > > > > > > I don't know all those games but tomb raider is extremely sexist as female representation. a story that fits reactionary purposes is very political and is often more successful than not (for games, music, movies, most of the entertainment industry actually, keeping it male dominated) > > > > > > > > > > How is holding someone accountable for their actions targeting them? That makes no sense at all and just comes across as a lot of mental gymnastics. > > holding her accountable are just some fancy words to blossom the fact the she's being bullied the most in this story. a bunch of internet warriors jumping her is justified why exactly? who set the standards? Morale? So if I start calling you names now it will be totally cool with you then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Koen.1327" said: > cheering on a female losing her job is reactionary, regardless of her actions as it doesn't solve the problem (maybe for anet temporarily). > > it's very misogynist as in this context the male managers have set the standards, so regardless of if it hits their male oriented business or does damage to it. Once again, male employee also affected. Can we wait a page between reruns? > also she is the one being targeted the most and not this peter, people have decided who should be bullied most when the consequences for them were the same before the hunt. I'd like to point out you've also trivialized his role. Hardly get's a mention at all except in relation to her plight. > > I don't know all those games Odd, a moment ago you seemed quite informed about the state of the industry? > but tomb raider is extremely sexist as female representation. They were triangle boobs. <,< Still the hero of the story, no man to the rescue. Should she have had an overcoat on in the jungle? > a story that fits reactionary purposes is very political and is often more successful than not wut > (for games, music, movies, most of the entertainment industry actually, keeping it male dominated) That I'll give you. Facts are facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koen.1327 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said: > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > @"Twyn.7320" said: > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Adotiln Urthadar.1823" said: > > > > > > > > > > This was a very cowardly action. You have lost an incredible amount of respect in my eyes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most of the people gained respect from anet for firing those 2 aggressive employers. but somehow you lost respect? awkward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most of the people here are male reactionaries so yeah they loves bullying especially females > > > > > > > > females get told how to do their job better all the time > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why are you automatically assuming anyone's gender based on their viewpoints? That's pretty sexist in and of itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > how come ruling that the majority of the people here are reactionaries males is sexist? the analyzes of that is true, like for most of the games if not all. > > > > > > > > > > > > i'm not all in favor of statistical analyzes but females are underrepresented in in games, playing or developing, and that's not because females are inferior to males (that there is competition to begin with is another problem). > > > > > > > > > > Where are you pulling your data from to prove this is the truth? Let alone this is a single thread on the forums, not the entire game (let alone "most of the games"). > > > > > > > > > > Let alone assuming someone's gender based off their beliefs is horribly wrong, especially when in this thread alone there are people of different genders on both "sides" of the argument (and IMO there are more than 2 sides, it's not just black and white). > > > > > > > > my comment was based on what Draco said "most of the people gained respect from anet". As the story here is classic misogyny and most the people think this is okay i can only rule them are reactionary males. It also confirms my experience of playing online for about 15 years. Not sure if we have the same idea in mind but there is constant sexism (and other forms of oppressing ) in the chat, like 24/7 - and yes, in every game i've played. > > > > > > How about instead of labelling everyone that feels that this is the right decision as 'reactionary males', which in itself is sexist, as I'm not a reactionary or male, thank you, you could start assessing why it's not the right decision. Provide some points rather than throwing insults at a wall and hoping that some of them stick. In this instance, you're not making the debate any better. > > > > > > The story here isn't classic misogyny at all, it's the rational response to an employee sabotaging the company's business. Remove gender from the equation, despite the hypocrisy in the person's views. Is it okay for an employee to start a witch hunt on two affiliates because of disagreements? No. What did she do? She shot the two affiliates down for valid criticism and publicly set them up to be witch-hunted by her followers. That's not professional at all, and the moment that she put 'ArenaNet Narrative Team' in her bio is the moment that the profile turned from private/personal to public. If you disagree, that's fine, but that's how consumerism works. > > > > > > As for sexism in gaming, does it exist? Obviously. It works all ways, as does racism, homophobia, being heterosexual, transphobia, all of the categories that we have, someone will be offensive to someone else, using any part of their identity. To ignore that it happens to white people is ignorance, to ignore that it happens to straight people is ignorance, to ignore that it happens to males is ignorance, and so on. > > > > > > Also, I don't know where you're getting representation statistics from, but it's actually impossible to measure this. For this to work, you'd need every company to agree to share player information to cross-reference whether the same players are playing in different games and whether they're male or female. All studies with gender statistics always state: 'From a sample of 1,000 people or another arbitrary number'. That sample size is always too small, so gaming companies have adapted to view it as basically 50/50 or 52/48 in favour of males or females, depending on the genre. > > > > > > In terms of game development, females are being equally represented through the production of narratives. See games such as Gears of War 5, Tomb Raider, Horizon: Zero Dawn, The Last of Us 2, The Walking Dead (Telltale), Star Wars Battlefront 2, Assassin's Creed: Odyssey (the demo was shown with a female for corporate reasons), Hellblade, Nier: Automata, Gravity Rush 2, Battlefield 5 (War Stories). I appreciate that you've had individual experiences across 15 years, but so has everyone. Have I been told to go to a kitchen? Yah, obviously. What did I say? 'Go back to your garage.' Gasp, I was sexist back! Suddenly, they stopped, because they found it all 'weak memes'. Well, there we go, crisis averted. Thick skin rules out. > > > > > > Could there be more female-focused narratives? Yah, definitely. Do I want them to force representation down my throat? No, because they always make bad narratives. A story that's made on the grounds of political activism always fails, and damages the credibility of the movement that they're trying to support. If you disagree, you do you, but don't throw every critic under the bus because they don't share your views, unless you have evidence to state otherwise. <3 > > > > cheering on a female losing her job is reactionary, regardless of her actions as it doesn't solve the problem (maybe for anet temporarily). > > > > it's very misogynist as in this context the male managers have set the standards, so regardless of if it hits their male oriented business or does damage to it. also she is the one being targeted the most and not this peter, people have decided who should be bullied most when the consequences for them were the same before the hunt. > > > > I have no idea what you are smoking bro at this point but I'd advise you to change dealer... > it's another typical reactionary myth that "smoking" makes a person incapable of thinking straight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaraki.5784 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 This thread is becoming more and more full of toxic posts, what's done is done, it's time to close it imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoitios.8375 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Asudementio.8526" said: > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > A bunch of internet warriors jumping her? Like who? Like her following that she pointed at Deroir labeling him "sexist" for making constructive criticism? She is being held accountable for her actions, it is as simple as that. If we can't hold people accountable for their actions then what can we do anymore? > > It's possible to hold people accountable for their actions without following the playbook of a bunch of whiny channers and signalling to the world that you side with the toxic underbelly of the internet because they can brigade and make themselves loud. > > Oh, so you are privy to all of the inner workings of Arenanet and what she was like behind closed doors? Do tell! Because, most of the people posting here, myself included, are not privy to that information and the odds of it being shared are pretty much non-existent (as they should be). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daxramas.1940 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"X T D.6458" said: > Let me just add my two cents here, as a longtime fan of the Guild Wars franchise... > > As a personal principle I dont like this environment we currently live in where anytime someone says something offensive, or stupid, or displays shocking ignorance that they need to be punished verbally, professionally, and personally. Generally speaking, it is not illegal to be stupid, or to say stupid things regardless of who you are. We all have the right to Freedom of Speech and Expression, and these rights were specifically implemented to protect disagreeable speech. That being said, it does not protect an individual in the workplace. A business must protect itself from anything or anyone deemed toxic so as not to alienate their customer base, this is just common sense. > > As a white male, I find these comments not only idiotic but ignorant as well, but so what. I can choose not to read them, or to follow the individual posting such comments. I don't have to constantly put myself in a position where I will be outraged and demand blood. People need to stop being offended by everything and build thicker skins. > > In the end, Anet as a business had to protect themselves and had only one path to pursue. Clearly this person has a history of posting offensive and toxic things online, and insulting your customer base is the dumbest thing you can ever do as an employee or business. Had they not acted quicker, this could have evolved into a much larger PR nightmare. This decision was about the employees terrible interaction and perception of the playerbase, not for personal views on politics or society. The major point to take away here was that she was not reprimanded because she spoke her mind. The entirety of the issue that took place was because she attacked multiple people including major community members. This isn't an issue on saying something ignorant or stupid is grounds for termination, but it's setting the standard of professionalism as to not directly abuse your customer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koen.1327 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"FyzE.3472" said: > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > @"Twyn.7320" said: > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Draco.9480" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Adotiln Urthadar.1823" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > This was a very cowardly action. You have lost an incredible amount of respect in my eyes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most of the people gained respect from anet for firing those 2 aggressive employers. but somehow you lost respect? awkward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > most of the people here are male reactionaries so yeah they loves bullying especially females > > > > > > > > > > females get told how to do their job better all the time > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why are you automatically assuming anyone's gender based on their viewpoints? That's pretty sexist in and of itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how come ruling that the majority of the people here are reactionaries males is sexist? the analyzes of that is true, like for most of the games if not all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i'm not all in favor of statistical analyzes but females are underrepresented in in games, playing or developing, and that's not because females are inferior to males (that there is competition to begin with is another problem). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where are you pulling your data from to prove this is the truth? Let alone this is a single thread on the forums, not the entire game (let alone "most of the games"). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let alone assuming someone's gender based off their beliefs is horribly wrong, especially when in this thread alone there are people of different genders on both "sides" of the argument (and IMO there are more than 2 sides, it's not just black and white). > > > > > > > > > > > > my comment was based on what Draco said "most of the people gained respect from anet". As the story here is classic misogyny and most the people think this is okay i can only rule them are reactionary males. It also confirms my experience of playing online for about 15 years. Not sure if we have the same idea in mind but there is constant sexism (and other forms of oppressing ) in the chat, like 24/7 - and yes, in every game i've played. > > > > > > > > > > How about instead of labelling everyone that feels that this is the right decision as 'reactionary males', which in itself is sexist, as I'm not a reactionary or male, thank you, you could start assessing why it's not the right decision. Provide some points rather than throwing insults at a wall and hoping that some of them stick. In this instance, you're not making the debate any better. > > > > > > > > > > The story here isn't classic misogyny at all, it's the rational response to an employee sabotaging the company's business. Remove gender from the equation, despite the hypocrisy in the person's views. Is it okay for an employee to start a witch hunt on two affiliates because of disagreements? No. What did she do? She shot the two affiliates down for valid criticism and publicly set them up to be witch-hunted by her followers. That's not professional at all, and the moment that she put 'ArenaNet Narrative Team' in her bio is the moment that the profile turned from private/personal to public. If you disagree, that's fine, but that's how consumerism works. > > > > > > > > > > As for sexism in gaming, does it exist? Obviously. It works all ways, as does racism, homophobia, being heterosexual, transphobia, all of the categories that we have, someone will be offensive to someone else, using any part of their identity. To ignore that it happens to white people is ignorance, to ignore that it happens to straight people is ignorance, to ignore that it happens to males is ignorance, and so on. > > > > > > > > > > Also, I don't know where you're getting representation statistics from, but it's actually impossible to measure this. For this to work, you'd need every company to agree to share player information to cross-reference whether the same players are playing in different games and whether they're male or female. All studies with gender statistics always state: 'From a sample of 1,000 people or another arbitrary number'. That sample size is always too small, so gaming companies have adapted to view it as basically 50/50 or 52/48 in favour of males or females, depending on the genre. > > > > > > > > > > In terms of game development, females are being equally represented through the production of narratives. See games such as Gears of War 5, Tomb Raider, Horizon: Zero Dawn, The Last of Us 2, The Walking Dead (Telltale), Star Wars Battlefront 2, Assassin's Creed: Odyssey (the demo was shown with a female for corporate reasons), Hellblade, Nier: Automata, Gravity Rush 2, Battlefield 5 (War Stories). I appreciate that you've had individual experiences across 15 years, but so has everyone. Have I been told to go to a kitchen? Yah, obviously. What did I say? 'Go back to your garage.' Gasp, I was sexist back! Suddenly, they stopped, because they found it all 'weak memes'. Well, there we go, crisis averted. Thick skin rules out. > > > > > > > > > > Could there be more female-focused narratives? Yah, definitely. Do I want them to force representation down my throat? No, because they always make bad narratives. A story that's made on the grounds of political activism always fails, and damages the credibility of the movement that they're trying to support. If you disagree, you do you, but don't throw every critic under the bus because they don't share your views, unless you have evidence to state otherwise. <3 > > > > > > > > cheering on a female losing her job is reactionary, regardless of her actions as it doesn't solve the problem (maybe for anet temporarily). > > > > > > > > it's very misogynist as in this context the male managers have set the standards, so regardless of if it hits their male oriented business or does damage to it. also she is the one being targeted the most and not this peter, people have decided who should be bullied most when the consequences for them were the same before the hunt. > > > > > > > > I don't know all those games but tomb raider is extremely sexist as female representation. a story that fits reactionary purposes is very political and is often more successful than not (for games, music, movies, most of the entertainment industry actually, keeping it male dominated) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is holding someone accountable for their actions targeting them? That makes no sense at all and just comes across as a lot of mental gymnastics. > > > > holding her accountable are just some fancy words to blossom the fact the she's being bullied the most in this story. a bunch of internet warriors jumping her is justified why exactly? who set the standards? > > Morale? So if I start calling you names now it will be totally cool with you then? yes, you can do whatever because i will not lose any privilege nor do you she lost her job (and with that comes so much more) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asudementio.8526 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > @"Asudementio.8526" said: > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > > A bunch of internet warriors jumping her? Like who? Like her following that she pointed at Deroir labeling him "sexist" for making constructive criticism? She is being held accountable for her actions, it is as simple as that. If we can't hold people accountable for their actions then what can we do anymore? > > > > It's possible to hold people accountable for their actions without following the playbook of a bunch of whiny channers and signalling to the world that you side with the toxic underbelly of the internet because they can brigade and make themselves loud. > > > > > > Oh, so you are privy to all of the inner workings of Arenanet and what she was like behind closed doors? Do tell! Because, most of the people posting here, myself included, are not privy to that information and the odds of it being shared are pretty much non-existent (as they should be). I'm making commentary on the consequences of their actions regardless of their internal discussions. Probably why i used words like "signalling". Feel free to reread now that the context has been made more apparent for you, i'll be happy to answer any more of your clarifying questions as long as i am still around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoitios.8375 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Asudementio.8526" said: > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > @"Asudementio.8526" said: > > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > > > > > A bunch of internet warriors jumping her? Like who? Like her following that she pointed at Deroir labeling him "sexist" for making constructive criticism? She is being held accountable for her actions, it is as simple as that. If we can't hold people accountable for their actions then what can we do anymore? > > > > > > It's possible to hold people accountable for their actions without following the playbook of a bunch of whiny channers and signalling to the world that you side with the toxic underbelly of the internet because they can brigade and make themselves loud. > > > > > > > > > > Oh, so you are privy to all of the inner workings of Arenanet and what she was like behind closed doors? Do tell! Because, most of the people posting here, myself included, are not privy to that information and the odds of it being shared are pretty much non-existent (as they should be). > > I'm making commentary on the consequences of their actions regardless of their internal discussions. Probably why i used words like "signalling". Feel free to reread now that the context has been made more apparent for you, i'll be happy to answer any more of your clarifying questions as long as i am still around. They are not signalling that they side with anyone other than themselves (themselves being Arenanet as a company). They act with their best interest in mind, nothing else, as most companies do. They are a business first and foremost and this was a huge PR nightmare caused by an employee on a public forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daxramas.1940 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"mixxed.5862" said: > I'm disgusted by this community's reaction to her tweet, calling for her to be fired and being genuinely happy about it afterwards. To me it's simply inconceivable how so many could overreact like that to blow this matter this massively out of proportion. > > She obviously perceived herself as being treated in a sexist way and called it out. It doesn't matter whether this indeed was the case or not, because it is very understandable how she could arrive at that conclusion: > Imo her reaction was perfectly understandable - although it was unprofessional. She shouldn't have replied to criticism on her own twitter account like a private person. That's literally the entire controversy. It's extremely important on whether or not there was genuine sexism directed at her to prompt such a response, because the reality of the situation now was she wildly accused someone publicly of being sexist towards her while also representing Anet. Her reaction was ludicrous and extremely unprofessional, and that's the root of the entire event that transpired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zedek.8932 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 I wish I could retrieve data from the commentors here. What I am interested in would be: * Age * Country where you lived in most / Culture connected to it * Employed or not / Student To me, as a German, I would never stop playing the game over such things. It's the action of a few. However, from what I have observed, Americans seem to be more like "the company as a whole" sort of thing, and stop spending or using their service over something ONE guy did. Then there are probably unemployed people or students with no clue about worklife that always wants everyone to be fired (heck, even I did not say that to Robert Gee; at least I can't remember). I am also very glad to see some people showing up a bit of common sense here to calm down things. For the Millenials sh..tstorms are a thing and probably something they are used to (ranting over the internet for nothing), but for anyone born before 1995, this should not be a thing. So @"Asudementio.8526" , thank you so much for that view on the matter. I almost felt a bit displaced amongst the bunch of "finally she's fired, I can play the game again" people here that remind me of prehistoric folks dancing around a fireplace after a sacrifice to their god or something... Excelsior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holodoc.5748 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 Now a memo to whoever takes the helm for further Living Story content... Kill of Tiny and Bam-Bam Stupidson... Pretty please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asudementio.8526 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > Actually, I am thinking you are the one who doesn't know what tweets we are talking about. She blatantly called him a random (expletive) in a follow up post which was very clearly public for everyone to see. That is something you just don't do on a public forum to a long time community content creator (and partner) while representing your company. The guy who was asking if they may call me the expletive you are referring to was doing so as a quote to the post i made regarding her tweet on TB's passing. Which is why i said he was responding to me about the wrong tweet. I know it's tough but try to keep up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoitios.8375 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Asudementio.8526" said: > > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > > > Actually, I am thinking you are the one who doesn't know what tweets we are talking about. She blatantly called him a random (expletive) in a follow up post which was very clearly public for everyone to see. That is something you just don't do on a public forum to a long time community content creator (and partner) while representing your company. > > The guy who was asking if they may call me the expletive you are referring to was doing so as a quote to the post i made regarding her tweet on TB's passing. > Which is why i said he was responding to me about the wrong tweet. > > I know it's tough but try to keep up. Except you didn't even quote that comment, try to keep up, I know it's tough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asudementio.8526 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Menoitios.8375" said: > They are not signalling that they side with anyone other than themselves (themselves being Arenanet as a company). They act with their best interest in mind, nothing else, as most companies do. They are a business first and foremost and this was a huge PR nightmare caused by an employee on a public forum. Actions have unintended consequences. Their actions because not given sufficient clarification and context have a lot of toxic communities cheering and lumping themselves in with Anet. These communities are also weaseling their way through 3rd party GW2 affiliated sites and actively spreading their toxic propaganda. So once again, Kudos to Anet- i wouldn't blame people for leaving the game. edit: a word Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Dondarrion.2748" said: > > @"smitske.4912" said: > > On the other hand, I dont think we should rejoice for people losing their jobs and livelihoods even though some mightve been justified. > > Yes, despicable behaviour from this so-called outstanding gw2 community. There's a lot of individuals out there who need to take a good look at themselves in the mirror, raising pitchforks and claiming toxicity is unacceptable behaviour and at the next crossroads they're the ones bad-mouthing stuff... > > Today is a very sad day for Anet and I think I've reached a crossroads with GW2, I'll take summer to consider but while some cherish this and stay with the game, this might be where I take my leave; for JP/PF to lose their jobs over this is beyond belief when there's other disciplinary actions and this being spurred on by a kitten social media drama... And you of course know that there wasn't previous internal history to warrant them parting company with JP.. the PF decision I accept is somewhat strange to me as reading through it he came into the discussion with the right intentions but somewhere it got very muddied.. certainly I could back a cause for reconsideration here.. but JP, sorry that was the right outcome . Like what's been said, this is not some isolated incident concerning JP there is previous. At the end of the day ANET chose to take the situation very seriously, it's not nice to see people loose jobs and possibly livelihoods, but when an "experienced" dev lacked the professional fortitude to take on board a player's critique, opinions and ideas, after opening the floor in which to do so, but instead decided to go off on some outofwhack ranting session before realising she wasn't go to just push the discussion away and resorted to playing a totally unwarranted ism card for effect. Fact is as a game dev she had the option to not place professional detail out on a personal account for discussion, but after offering a platform for such discussion she could of chosen to ignore/block as she openly does or converse without the need for the drama queen act. Everything she does within her role at ANET becomes open for critique once it's placed into the public domain for our consumption, but she failed to handle that in the same good mannered way the challenges, opinions and ideas were presented to her... and for that she let not just herself down but ANET as well and there in lies the reasoning behind the decisions taken. If it happened within my own company I would likely take the same course of action, whether they were male or female, especially if there is any underlying history to add into the pot, which we wont ever know about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koen.1327 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 Justice right here: 1. Keep her job --> Bad PR --> bunch of rich shareholders get less profit 2. Fire her --> lost her income --> loses more this is the reality (if bad PR even exist to a certain extend) and a lot seem to have trouble finding a balance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 > @"Rawalanche.3897" said: > Had they not done this, the relations between the community and the company could have been damaged for months to come. If someone did this at McDonalds, they wouldn't get to finish the shift. Universities should really have at least a weekend course on the realities of capitalism and prefessional decorum. Some people seem completely unaware there's MASSIVE no-no's involved with waving the company flag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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