GW 2 Devs/Playerbase Twitter Discussion

[Daxramas.1940]

> @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> Just because it's on a public platform doesn't mean everybody has to chime in with their opinions. Or do they do that as well when they overhear a conversation in a public space?

It also doesn't mean people aren't allowed to. If you want to have your personal twitter page private then there are methods to do so.

> Why should she have to "take the high road" and suck it up? It's her personal feed, she decides what goes and what doesn't, period.

Because she was actively representing her employer on her social media page. A personal feed is not a private feed, and when you are actively representing your employment you need to be aware of what you say and how you present yourself and your employment by extension.

> Also, friendly reminder: The people who get to decide what's misogynist are the people affected by it i.e. women. Just because a bunch of vocal asshats don't see the way Derior responded to JP as sexist, doesn't mean that it isn't.

I'm not going to touch this because the only declarations of sexism that took place were from the employee which has proven to be knee-jerk to say the least.

 

[Menoitios.8375]

> @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> > @"Menoitios.8375" said:

> > If she didn't want to hear anyone's opinion there was a simple solution: Don't make the post in the first place, especially in a public format (ie. social media). Let alone there was nothing saying she had to respond to them in the first place, she literally could have made her post and turned Twitter off for the day.

> >

> > Edit: Also, what kind of professional doesn't welcome constructive criticism? That's how you improve. (To answer that question, an unemployed one)

>

> Just because it's on a public platform doesn't mean everybody has to chime in with their opinions. Or do they do that as well when they overhear a conversation in a public space?

>

> Why should she have to "take the high road" and suck it up? It's her personal feed, she decides what goes and what doesn't, period.

>

> Also, friendly reminder: The people who get to decide what's misogynist are the people affected by it i.e. women. Just because a bunch of vocal asshats don't see the way Derior responded to JP as sexist, doesn't mean that it isn't.

 

It stopped being her personal feed when it was plastered with "I work at Arenanet" and posted about her work on Guild Wars 2 for Arenanet. At that point it was a professional post. Let alone it was on Twitter, by nature Twitter invites people to comment on it. If she didn't want comments she could have put it on a blog, or in a diary, or a journal, or whatever else that is actually private.

 

Also, no, Deroir posted a very well written response that could have been delivered to anyone that made that post regardless of their identifiers and it would still have been acceptable. She has a history of doing what she did and blowing it out of proportion. If she can't handle criticism of her work then she shouldn't be posting it on social media or at least turn her feed private because, yes, that is an option.

 

Lastly, yes, she decides what goes and what doesn't; however, she also has to accept responsibility for her actions as an adult. Which is what we saw with what happened here.

[Nagi.8941]

> @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> > @"Menoitios.8375" said:

> > If she didn't want to hear anyone's opinion there was a simple solution: Don't make the post in the first place, especially in a public format (ie. social media). Let alone there was nothing saying she had to respond to them in the first place, she literally could have made her post and turned Twitter off for the day.

> >

> > Edit: Also, what kind of professional doesn't welcome constructive criticism? That's how you improve. (To answer that question, an unemployed one)

>

> Just because it's on a public platform doesn't mean everybody has to chime in with their opinions. Or do they do that as well when they overhear a conversation in a public space?

>

> Why should she have to "take the high road" and suck it up? It's her personal feed, she decides what goes and what doesn't, period.

 

Because this is what it means to be a professional. If you put your employer on your personal social media, and represent yourself as an employee of that company, what you say on your feed has a direct impact on your company.

 

I get that a lot of people here don't think women are capable of being responsible adults, or professionals, and need constant protecting from the misogynist internet but that doesn't make it true. I can promise you that women in Corporate America aren't waiting for men to come save the day every time there's trouble.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

> @"Rococo.8347" said:

> I barely keep up with feedback to the community from Dev's etc, I tend to read analysis by the players around the time of releases but even I know 3 things about GW2:

>

> Dungeons will never be revived

> Armor will always be considered too resource heavy to make much of

> Individualised storytelling will always be considered too resource heavy due to additional voice acting etc

>

> Jessica Price ( now I have read back all of her contributions to reddit etc) had made more eloquent, interesting educational contributions about narrative that inform players than many, her essay on Twitter was like a class in writing for games, its was informed and clear, as was her AMNA comments that a lot restrictions goes into the sausage making that everyone outside doesnt know about. And yet Deroir read this essay didn't actually respond to anything in it ( which is what a conversation is) and instead said - your approach is wrong and you need to look at branching...

>

> Really? if I KNOW branching is out, how in the hell didn't he? regardless of how 'polite' people think he was being, im not sure he was, he ignored everything she had written, said it was interesting then brought up a concept that has been discussed previously and community told, no.

>

> Then someone - his friend? when it blew up ( and I want to point out I found her wording out of line) reported it all on reddit with edited remarks that didn't show everything that was said. It reminded me of people who write screeds on reddit for AMA's and get butt hurt when they don't get an interaction they were looking for.

>

> Deroir knew branching wasn't an option, he didn't look at her well thought out essay he just wanted to tout his 'superior' thoughts on the situation, that actually ignored analysiss she had already made - look I think that Anet COULD find a way to do more armor, but if someone wrote a thorough explanation of the process, I wouldn't jump online and go' yes very interesting! however you are wrong I think, if you change your workflow like this it could be done, in fact it should be done.

>

> He had the option ( regardless of if people think he was in the wrong or not) to tell the community it was all fine and to calm the kitten down once the rabid dog piling began, in fact BECAUSE he is respected and he was part of the initial conversation that's what he could have done - if Anet said don't talk about specifics there was nothing stopping him making a generic, 'I cant talk about this in detail folks but please take a breath'

>

> Im old, ive seen this sort of thing in action ALOT taking the 'high road' doesn't involve just withdrawing from the situation - im disappointed in EVERYONE involved.

>

 

I don’t agree. If she had let it drop after he apologized and withdrew from the conversation then I very much doubt there would have been this outcome. What made her firing inevitable was her continuing the issue after he left by posting afterwards and quoting him, calling him a Rando [Kitten]hat and commenting about mansplaning and making a sneering post about “manfeels”

 

He might have made a mistake but she continued to pursue the subject after he apologized with anger and insults. That’s what got her fired.

[Greg R.9524]

I hope this isn't the future of game development. I honestly don't know if this is overkill or justified. It's probably a bit of both. I'd like to step outside of this actual example because I'm more concerned about the precedent that's being set. Any YouTuber out there knows that conflict = clicks. It in their financial interest to provoke people. Again, can't stress enough here, I'm not talking about this case. Like it or not, every human on the planet has buttons. I hope that a LOT of thought goes into handling these situations. IF you ignore the motives in play; you run the risk of gutting your service and product, for the sake of someone else's click bait.

[Daxramas.1940]

> @"morology.2507" said:

> Disgusted to see ArenaNet pandering to a pathetic ggate-style hate mob. I won't be playing their games anymore.

 

Are you willing to elaborate on this?

The majority of outcry has been from community members who agree that the behavior was deplorable and there needed to be some form of repercussion.

There's always going to be a minority of deplorable comments, however that's the reality of online platforms and shouldn't be indicative of the majority.

 

What happened was something that could've been totally avoided if the professionals behaved professional. There's not hate mobs or "ggate"

[Darknicrofia.2604]

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > @"Shoyoko.7309" said:

> > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > > @"Dreadshow.9320" said:

> > > > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > > > All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

> > > >

> > > > So you don't know how to search or just read what you want?

> > > > Not in this particular thread but one of the many others:

> > > >

> > > > > @"Dreamwolf.7423" said:

> > > > > I've seen posts defending her actions and I was to ask this:

> > > > > If it had been a man saying those things to a female player, would you be defending their actions then?

> > > > >

> > > > > As a female player, I can say that I was ashamed of her interactions with the community. Her language toward them was insulting and rude, and completely uncalled for. If she didn't want to have a discussion about work stuff on her day off on her "personal" account, then she shouldn't have opened the floor by posting what she did. If it was addressed in the AMA that should have been the end of it. But it seems to me that she went out of her way to further discussion about a game related topic and then lost her mind when someone stepped up with opposing ideas and suggestions.

> > > > And...

> > > > >@Shoyoko.7309 said:

> > > > >The definition of sexism:

> > > > >prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

> > > > >Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.

> > >

> > > Or maybe I didn't read every post here and asked for help. Also, I've already stated where I disagree with Shoyoko, whose post is ridiculous.

> >

> > But it is harsh and one of the worst labels to call someone, a sexist.

>

> No, there are far worse things to call someone than sexist. It's just men don't often get called them. Being called sexist isn't even an insult. It's just calling out bad behavior and asking someone to do better.

 

Ok you racist.

[Lanhelin.3480]

Along with this issue I only have one question: Why was the "Latest ArenaNet posts" slider deleted just yesterday? To keep the generated attention to this thread as low as possible?

[Daxramas.1940]

> @"Greg R.9524" said:

> I hope this isn't the future of game development. I honestly don't know if this is overkill or justified. It's probably a bit of both. I'd like to step outside of this actual example because I'm more concerned about the precedent that's being set. Any YouTuber out there knows that conflict = clicks. It in their financial interest to provoke people. Again, can't stress enough here, I'm not talking about this case. Like it or not, every human on the planet has buttons. I hope that a LOT of thought goes into handling these situations. IF you ignore the motives in play; you run the risk of gutting your service and product, for the sake of someone else's click bait.

 

I agree. I don't think anyone actually anticipated both employee's losing their jobs, however we simply don't know what else happened behind closed doors which resulted in this outcome.

It sadly is an age where drama=clicks and clicks=money, however this event truly does solely stem from the requirement of professionalism when representing your employers. The extended social issues are talking points pulled from the direct dialogue and arguably reaching.

[Nagi.8941]

> @"Greg R.9524" said:

> I hope this isn't the future of game development. I honestly don't know if this is overkill or justified. It's probably a bit of both. I'd like to step outside of this actual example because I'm more concerned about the precedent that's being set. Any YouTuber out there knows that conflict = clicks. It in their financial interest to provoke people. Again, can't stress enough here, I'm not talking about this case. Like it or not, every human on the planet has buttons. I hope that a LOT of thought goes into handling these situations. IF you ignore the motives in play; you run the risk of gutting your service and product, for the sake of someone else's click bait.

 

I’m sure they did put a lot of thought into this before taking action. Replacing talent in a large company costs money, and is generally avoided where possible. On top of that, despite the fear mongers here stating otherwise, most of the conversation on forums leading up to this seemed pretty civil. I appreciated that. In fact, most of the responses on the main threads were actively asking Arenanet to NOT fire her, but just reprimand and and apologize. Only a small handful, who mostly got moderated because they were being hateful and mysoginistic, were asking for more.

 

That ArenaNet actually fired both her and an employee of 12 years says serious thought went into it. At the end of the day, when people attack others based on gender or race, they are taking a huge chance. Especially if they do so on an account that has their employer listed.

 

This wasn’t some knee jerk reaction based on mob mentality. This was a corporate decision that had to be carefully considered, and I don’t doubt that even attorneys were consulted in the process.

[Phosphorite.6192]

> @"Daxramas.1940" said:

> > @"morology.2507" said:

> > Disgusted to see ArenaNet pandering to a pathetic ggate-style hate mob. I won't be playing their games anymore.

>

> Are you willing to elaborate on this?

 

O'Brien characterized not only JPs but PFs actions as "attacks against the community" and didn't lose one word about the incredibly toxic reactions they both had to face from certain despicable "community members". He threw both of them under the bus, even PF although all he did was defend JPs position in polite(!) words. If that's not pandering, tell me what is.

 

As CEO he has responsibility towards his employees, to back them up against unreasonable demands from "consumers" who don't get that they purchased a product, not the time and life of the people who worked on said product. He did an incredible disservice to JP and PFand couldn't have handled this whole thing worse.

[Twyn.7320]

> @"Rococo.8347" said:

> Deroir knew branching wasn't an option, he didn't look at her well thought out essay he just wanted to tout his 'superior' thoughts on the situation, that actually ignored analysiss she had already made - look I think that Anet COULD find a way to do more armor, but if someone wrote a thorough explanation of the process, I wouldn't jump online and go' yes very interesting! however you are wrong I think, if you change your workflow like this it could be done, in fact it should be done.

>

> He had the option ( regardless of if people think he was in the wrong or not) to tell the community it was all fine and to calm the kitten down once the rabid dog piling began, in fact BECAUSE he is respected and he was part of the initial conversation that's what he could have done - if Anet said don't talk about specifics there was nothing stopping him making a generic, 'I cant talk about this in detail folks but please take a breath'.

 

I hope that you realise that branching paths are possible in Guild Wars 2? We've seen it done before. In their most extreme form, Heart of Thorns allowed us to save Zojja or Logan first so we chose who was more worthwhile. However, in their normal form, dialogue options with Dignity, Charm and Fierce attributes have existed through so many chapters. Whilst the story doesn't change, dialogue options allow for minor alterations that shape an individual personality for each Commander. Deroir wasn't asking for huge level-scale branching points, only dialogue options, something that we've seen before. Also, this happened in the most recent Episode, during the Trial, so it's possible. We just need more of it.

 

Also Deroir didn't ask for people to witch-hunt or escalate the situation. He told people on stream to not pay it any attention, as did other streamers who had connections. So please, try to avoid painting him as a villain for voicing real, evidenced criticism.

 

 

[Haleydawn.3764]

> @"Nagi.8941" said:

> > @"Greg R.9524" said:

> > I hope this isn't the future of game development. I honestly don't know if this is overkill or justified. It's probably a bit of both. I'd like to step outside of this actual example because I'm more concerned about the precedent that's being set. Any YouTuber out there knows that conflict = clicks. It in their financial interest to provoke people. Again, can't stress enough here, I'm not talking about this case. Like it or not, every human on the planet has buttons. I hope that a LOT of thought goes into handling these situations. IF you ignore the motives in play; you run the risk of gutting your service and product, for the sake of someone else's click bait.

>

> I’m sure they did put a lot of thought into this before taking action. Replacing talent in a large company costs money, and is generally avoided where possible. On top of that, despite the fear mongers here stating otherwise, most of the conversation on forums leading up to this seemed pretty civil. I appreciated that. In fact, most of the responses on the main threads were actively asking Arenanet to NOT fire her, but just reprimand and and apologize. Only a small handful, who mostly got moderated because they were being hateful and mysoginistic, were asking for more.

>

> That ArenaNet actually fired both her and an employee of 12 years says serious thought went into it. At the end of the day, when people attack others based on gender or race, they are taking a huge chance. Especially if they do so on an account that has their employer listed.

>

> This wasn’t some knee jerk reaction based on mob mentality. This was a corporate decision that had to be carefully considered, and I don’t doubt that even attorneys were consulted in the process.

 

Absolutely!

It’s bizarre seeing so many people that don’t understand the basics of business, customer relations and basic employment contracts!

There’s a lot of things now being included into employment contracts to prevent these things from happening, and with ArenaNet being as high profile as it is, they must’ve had some sort of Social Media Clause in there. I also believe the legal team was heavily consulted in this matter before any decisions were made.

 

 

 

Now, there is nothing that anyone here can do about the decisions that have been made, but you can shout at each other all you like. It. Won’t. Change. A. Kitten. Thing. M’kay? Both sides that are still arguing semantics over this are wasting their time. Anet has the full low down, and a conclusion has been made. End. Of.

[crawlerette.4217]

sure is interesting watching gamers who call people sensitive snowflakes who need to grow thicker skin on the regular now losing their minds cause a woman was rude to them on the internet

 

sure is

[Avelione.6075]

Woah! :open_mouth: I saw that twitter exchange yesterday and I decided it's not really worth my time to dwell on it... BUT it made me concerned if a person like this would be more likely to cause too big disturbances in the work of the Anet team... o.0 Not sure, but it's not a concern anymore.... I only saw Jessica's twitts and they were a bit too rude for what I saw and I thought that she either had a very bad day and/or tries to force the "men discriminate female devs" fashion again, whereas it seems to be an old story by now. 0.o

[Uhura.5163]

When you see those kind of réaction after the decision to fire JP and PF, you can see there is something wrong.[https://youtube.com/watch?v=oA9xzTI4Zyk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA9xzTI4Zyk "https://youtube.com/watch?v=oA9xzTI4Zyk")

I hope Deroir knows he is one of the 2 person who started all of this and could have stop it to escalate at this point.

Anyway, even if they won't read this post, i want to say that as a female player, Jessica and Peter you have all my support.

[Daxramas.1940]

> @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> > @"Daxramas.1940" said:

> > > @"morology.2507" said:

> > > Disgusted to see ArenaNet pandering to a pathetic ggate-style hate mob. I won't be playing their games anymore.

> >

> > Are you willing to elaborate on this?

>

> O'Brien characterized not only JPs but PFs actions as "attacks against the community" and didn't lose one word about the incredibly toxic reactions they both had to face from certain despicable "community members". He threw both of them under the bus, even PF although all he did was defend JPs position in polite(!) words. If that's not pandering, tell me what is.

>

> As CEO he has responsibility towards his employees, to back them up against unreasonable demands from "consumers" who don't get that they purchased a product, not the time and life of the people who worked on said product. He did an incredible disservice to JP and PFand couldn't have handled this whole thing worse.

 

 

O'Brien correctly assesses that JP did directly attack community members unprovoked (I'm not going to argue whether or not their behavior was provoked because that's been discussed to death to no avail.) and continued the argument further and unfortunately failed to see her errors in being so brash publicly. Despite PF going the more diplomatic route, he shouldn't have chimed into the discussion at all because it was a sour one to begin with. By defending his coworkers words he essentially is backing her behavior whilst also representing Anet.

 

A CEO has responsibilities towards his employees and his customers and investors. There's zero proof that the results of this altercation were because of "demands from consumers". We don't know what was said or done at Anet, all we know is two employees represented their company poorly to the public, and they had to be dealt with according to the company's discretion.

 

Edit: Spellcheck

[RoseofGilead.8907]

I think Anet did the right thing here. JP was in the wrong and had a history of saying awful things, and so disciplinary action was needed. But I'm seriously disgusted by many, many members of the GW2 community. Honestly, I'm going to be taking a break from the game for a while.

[Daxramas.1940]

> @"crawlerette.4217" said:

> sure is interesting watching gamers who call people sensitive snowflakes who need to grow thicker skin on the regular now losing their minds cause a woman was rude to them on the internet

>

> sure is

 

Gender has nothing to do with this. An employee behaved poorly whilst representing their company and another supported it. It's only natural that they would then be punished for it. The extent of punishment was entirely up to Anet and we as a community have no idea what transpired to result in them leaving.

[sigur.9453]

> @"Uhura.5163" said:

> When you see those kind of réaction after the decision to fire JP and PF, you can see there is something wrong.[https://youtube.com/watch?v=oA9xzTI4Zyk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA9xzTI4Zyk "https://youtube.com/watch?v=oA9xzTI4Zyk")

> I hope Deroir knows he is one of the 2 person who started all of this and could have stop it to escalate at this point.

> Anyway, even if they won't read this post, i want to say that as a female player, Jessica and Peter you have all my support.

 

Deroir appologized 2 times.

 

[Shoyoko.7309]

Wow, this whole controversy is just facts vs feels.

[Avelione.6075]

> @"Mike O Brien.4613" said:

> Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company.

>

> I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you.

>

> Mo

 

AWWWWWWWW :o ^_^

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"Koen.1327" said:

> Justice right here:

>

> 1. Keep her job --> Bad PR --> bunch of rich shareholders might get less profit as potential business earnings both current and future might beplaced at risk __> more employees potentially have their jobs and livelihoods put at risk

> 2. Fire her --> lost her income --> has time to reflect and hopefully learn how to take criticism when working in a position where it works hand in hand - whilst also learning how separate her personal and professional ideologies

 

FIXED THAT FOR YA...

>

> this is the reality (if bad PR even exist to a certain extend) and a lot seem to have trouble finding a balance

>

> Of course Bad PR exists.. what no one knows is what damage it might do from one person/company to the next. A company's reputation takes a long time to build, but potentially one employees Twittertrash to destroy it. Therefore ANET were placed in a no win situation and handled it accordingly.

You or I have no idea what took place internally to arrive at the outcomes it did and we do not know if any additional issues internally were also subject to the decision making process.

 

 

[Goettel.4389]

Drama past, game on! <3

[Nagi.8941]

> @"sigur.9453" said:

> > @"Uhura.5163" said:

> > When you see those kind of réaction after the decision to fire JP and PF, you can see there is something wrong.[https://youtube.com/watch?v=oA9xzTI4Zyk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA9xzTI4Zyk "https://youtube.com/watch?v=oA9xzTI4Zyk")

> > I hope Deroir knows he is one of the 2 person who started all of this and could have stop it to escalate at this point.

> > Anyway, even if they won't read this post, i want to say that as a female player, Jessica and Peter you have all my support.

>

> Deroir appologized 2 times.

>

 

The victim in the situation shouldn’t have to apologize, imho. He did nothing wrong. She, a capable adult woman, posted a discussion on a public twitter feed that she chose not to make private. He responded to it in a considerate and respectful fashion. Her reaction to that was not something he could control.

 

It’s amazing how many people here think that a professional woman is not capable of controlling her own emotions and that it is the duty of the big strong capable man in the situation to make sure not to upset her. It’s really tiring seeing how many of you with “good intentions” view women like irrational children who will blow up at any minute.

 

She’s an adult. She’s a professional. She chose to react how she did, and it’s not his place to control her reaction to his respectful attempt to have a conversation with her.