GW 2 Devs/Playerbase Twitter Discussion

[Menoitios.8375]

> @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> > Would you cuss them out?

> >

> > Would your boss be ok with that?

>

> I would tell them to get lost.

>

> > @"Nagi.8941" said:

> > So... she started a conversation on a public forum, that she specifically left public of her own accord. She got a response from a member of the public forum, who was able to see it because she specifically left the post public. But because the post slightly disagreed, it’s covert sexism?

> >

> > I just learned that I might be the most oppressed person in history based on this new information.

>

> How did she start a conversation? She posted a thread of information for people to read. Again, nowhere did she ask for opinions or critique.

>

> It's the fact that he felt entitled enough to disregard her lengthy essay in what essentially boils down to a "well actually", no matter how well articulated it may have been, and expect to be met with enthusiasm.

> He was just the one who got the stone rolling though. The toxic mess that ensued afterwards is mostly thanks to the "community" O'Brien seems to love so much that he willingly throws valued employees under the bus.

 

Again, if she didn't want feedback from the public she should have posted it in a non-public form. She could have made her account private, posted it on a blog, written it in a diary or journal, etc, the list goes on. There are numerous ways she could have posted that online and not allowed for feedback if she didn't want it, heck, she could have even ignored every comment and not even looked at her Twitter after posting it.

 

Also, that post can't be summed up as "well actually", it was more of a "Hey, as a player I find this engaging story telling, have you thought of it?" and it got shut down instantly and in a very inappropriate manner from someone who is supposed to be a "professional".

 

Lastly, Mo didn't throw them under the bus, they threw themselves under it with how they handled the situation. That's part of being an adult, you know, being responsible for your actions.

[rockshock.6378]

> @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> > @"rockshock.6378" said:

> > So, It's okey to celebrate someones death but not celebrate a person getting fired cause she's a woman? That's what i'm getting from the people defending JP.

>

> Of course, it's in bad taste. But I sure as hell won't judge a person who faces abuse for being glad an abusive person isn't around anymore.

 

And the community felt abuse from JP. So what's the difference? Isnt it the same thing then?

 

 

[muffi.3964]

> @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> > @"rockshock.6378" said:

> > So, It's okey to celebrate someones death but not celebrate a person getting fired cause she's a woman? That's what i'm getting from the people defending JP.

>

> Of course, it's in bad taste. But I sure as hell won't judge a person who faces abuse for being glad an abusive person isn't around anymore.

 

 

TB never abused anybody who didn't do a shitty job in the first place

[Kolzi.5928]

> @"LetoII.3782" said:

> > @"Kolzi.5928" said:

> > > @"LetoII.3782" said:

> > >

> > > > @"Kolzi.5928" said:

> > >

> > > > The hooting masses win again. Clearly her actions were inappropriate but was it worth destroying the livelihoods of two people? Don't worry MO, I don't blame you, I blame the cretins who were swarming all over this calling for it.

> > >

> > > Do you work?

> > > Call up one of your employer's clients and give 'em a good piece of your mind..... Record and broadcast on a public venue.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > That's not an accurate analogy for what happened her. She didn't call that person up, they came to her, and while her reaction was kitten it was also done on her own time as her own person not in her role as an employee at arenanet. Clearly inappropriate, also not really grounds to fire someone. Every single person on the planet has got into a fight or a tantrum or whatever at some point and it's not a good idea for the person who you were in a fight with to be able to then go to your employer and get you fired for it for obvious reasons.

>

> No, her Twitter account has two halves.

> One half is quite loudly and proudly Arenanet employee, the other is lots of incendiary opinion. In an extremely public setting.

> I do sympathize with Jessica, at a party on a holiday... Really should have left her phone in the car. Really, REALLY should have a personal twitter not so publicly tied to her place of employ. These people are minor celebrities, different rules apply in the public sphere.

 

The fact that she talks about her work a bit and mentions what her job does not mean that she is acting on behalf of arenanet or as any sort of official representative of arenanet on that twitter. I honestly think you have to be intentionally misrepresenting things to believe that what she said is supposed to be representative of the company as a whole. No one reads a tweet from her and thinks "this is what the company thinks" unless they put absolutely zero thought into their conclusion.

[Twyn.7320]

As a rule of thumb for public posts: If you write them, and you're okay with people agreeing with your opinion, don't be surprised when someone disagrees with your opinion with evidenced claims. If you're open to agree, you have to be open to disagree as well.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

> @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> > Would you cuss them out?

> >

> > Would your boss be ok with that?

>

> I would tell them to get lost.

>

 

So you wouldn’t cuss them out. Even more specifically, after they apologize twice you wouldn’t continue with it. You wouldn’t insult the guy out loud for everyone to hear while he was walking away.

 

That shows you know what the limits are and realize that doing the above would get you fired.

[Tolmos.8395]

> @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> How did she start a conversation? She posted a thread of information for people to read. Again, nowhere did she ask for opinions or critique.

>

> It's the fact that he felt entitled enough to disregard her lengthy essay in what essentially boils down to a "well actually", no matter how well articulated it may have been, and expect to be met with enthusiasm.

> He was just the one who got the stone rolling though. The toxic mess that ensued afterwards is mostly thanks to the "community" O'Brien seems to love so much that he willingly throws valued employees under the bus.

 

So I think I am starting to understand what you're saying. Essentially: we need consent to reply to a person's public post? Failure to get consent first is covert sexism/racism?

 

Omg poor OP of this thread; what have we done to them? @Cyrin.1035 could I get your consent to continue to post to this thread? And maybe some retroactive consent for all my previous posts? I had no idea I was so wrong.

[LetoII.3782]

> @"morology.2507" said:

> > @"LetoII.3782" said:

>

> >Some people need to get cut loose a few times before they learn to act right.

>

> Ah, she just needs to 'learn to act right.' Behave herself. Be humble and grateful and know her place, yeah?

>

> Gator through and through. Shame on this community. Absolute shame.

 

lol Gator?

I'd never heard that before, that's what I love about academia! Always so sparkly and new ;D

I say that as a person who's always felt awful when I had to look someone in the eye and say they're fired.

 

The SHE is irrelevant, you shove the non-female aside. Beneath consideration?

[Asudementio.8526]

> @"rockshock.6378" said:

> So, It's okey to celebrate someones death but not celebrate a person getting fired cause she's a woman? That's what i'm getting from the people defending JP.

 

It's more like, the celebration in certain circles arising from this person's firing reveals a large underlying motive that people are decrying.

[thruine.8510]

I still find these thread entirely entertaining. It would seem ArenaNet's solution didn't do much to resolve the actual problem as those who took her side are still on that side and those that were against her are still against her with both needing to vent over... what are you venting about? I can get the pro-JP (I think I am but I dunno, I'm having a hard time caring) because she did get fired. Peter Fries though. He got fired and people just push that aside so they can argue about Jessica Parker for.... I'm sorry... for what? I keep losing it. But what keeps anti-JPs in the fight? Is there something more than her being fired being needed? Maybe its manfeels (lol, I love that term... I'm going to have to use it more in my life). Isn't this a bit played out? And what's with digging up this dead guy so you can keep pointing out he's dead? That's a bit disrespectful since we say may they rest in peace, hmm? But all of you have really gotten a lot out of all of this. I wonder what's really going on here. I don't even think this is about the firings. Parker, Fries and Dead Biscuit just seem to be a means to an end but what is the endgame. Its possible to just accept things as they are and take a breath then move on. Whether justice is served or not. I'm just fascinated by the will to fight over something that barely if it even does affect any of us.

[Darknicrofia.2604]

> @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> > @"Tolmos.8395" said:

> > Covering your personal twitter with your company's name, acting as a representative of that company via your personal twitter, and then using your personal twitter to make derogatory statements towards people based on protected classes like gender, race, nationality or religion (oh, and also celebrating a cancer victim's death) is not going to end well for anyone.

> >

> > Saying, after the fact, "it's my personal twitter!" is the corporate equivalent of "I'm not touching you!"

>

> All she did was not being complacent in the face of covert sexism, which is something she should be applauded for, not fired.

>

> And the only thing I saw her tweet about TBs death was being glad that an abusive person has no longer the opportunity to be abusive, which I'm absolutely fine with.

>

 

Having a slight disagreement: Over the line sexism.

 

Celebrating a cancer patient losing the good fight and leaving behind a family: Absolutely fine.

 

Okay...

[Chorazin.4107]

> @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> It's the fact that he felt entitled enough to disregard her lengthy essay in what essentially boils down to a "well actually", no matter how well articulated it may have been, and expect to be met with enthusiasm.

> He was just the one who got the stone rolling though. The toxic mess that ensued afterwards is mostly thanks to the "community" O'Brien seems to love so much that he willingly throws valued employees under the bus.

 

He put forward his ideas respectfully, being cordial in your replies is given freely, it costs nothing. And to suggest people cannot have an opinion in a public domain is asinine, that is the very purpose of a public forum. If you wanted to limit discourse that is what a private platform is for.

[Phosphorite.6192]

> @"muffi.3964" said:

> TB never abused anybody who didn't do a kitten job in the first place

 

Aaahhh I see, because it's okay to abuse someone bc they're bad at what they're doing (by who's standards?). Yea really makes TB seem like a great fucking guy.

 

> @"Chorazin.4107" said:

> He put forward his ideas respectfully, being cordial in your replies is given freely, it costs nothing. And to suggest people cannot have an opinion in a public domain is asinine, that is the very purpose of a public forum. If you wanted to limit discourse that is what a private platform is for.

 

Because the idea of not telling someone what you think is such a foreign concept for many men that it doesn't even occur to them that their ideas might be absolutely uncalled for.

[Asudementio.8526]

> @"Menoitios.8375" said:

> > @"Asudementio.8526" said:

> > > @"Menoitios.8375" said:

> > > > @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> > > > > @"Tolmos.8395" said:

> > > > > Covering your personal twitter with your company's name, acting as a representative of that company via your personal twitter, and then using your personal twitter to make derogatory statements towards people based on protected classes like gender, race, nationality or religion (oh, and also celebrating a cancer victim's death) is not going to end well for anyone.

> > > > >

> > > > > Saying, after the fact, "it's my personal twitter!" is the corporate equivalent of "I'm not touching you!"

> > > >

> > > > All she did was not being complacent in the face of covert sexism, which is something she should be applauded for, not fired.

> > > >

> > > > And the only thing I saw her tweet about TBs death was being glad that an abusive person has no longer the opportunity to be abusive, which I'm absolutely fine with.

> > > >

> > >

> > > There was no covert sexism, it was pretty obvious that Deroir's response **was really well thought out** and crafted to be as objective and inoffensive as possible. In fact, he did such a great job with it you could send that exact message to anyone regardless of their identifiers and it would have been acceptable.

> > >

> > .

> > Note- emphasis mine

> >

> > His response was so well thought out that it hinged entirely on **a tool once used in the game but since largely abandoned** for any number of immediately identifiable and obvious reasons that he thought " oh, i bet this female game dev didn't think of this incredibly simple vehicle to use in her work that her coworkers have used in the past; let me remind her to show how shoddy her work is! I am a genius!" Even though the premises that could be readily taken from her previous essay on the character writing would lead you to a number of reasons why deroir's suggestion wasn't being used.

> >

> > It reeks of, i don't want to read your reasons why just do it this way because i know better than you.

> >

>

> Note- emphasis mine

>

> Yet that's why we did have some branching dialogue this very episode of the living world? All he was saying is that he would like more of it. Also, your post reeks of assuming what Deroir meant because you keep reading into it when there is nothing there other than what it states at face value. Not everyone has an ulterior motive when they say something.

 

For such an important content creator Deroir really thinks things out! I'm glad he was magically able to divine that there was no reason what-so-ever that large nested branching dialogue isn't in the game for any other reason than developer ineptitude. Thank god he took time to reflect on the question he intended to ask and consider the pros and cons of it's implementation and how it affects other unintended aspects of the game before chiming in.

[bernstein adelheid.8590]

The people need to really grow up. Just because you can leave your opinion it doesn't mean you are in the right if you get criticized. Nor that your post is welcomed anyway.

You're not writers, nor you will be able to make a real decent story. ( Heck, for what i could read during these weeks, most of you just want cut off character for the sake of "game of thrones" wannabe. ) Try to tell to a writer how he should do his job is the straight equivalent to insult it.

This drama is totally messed up and make me feel that i'm surrounded by underage angry kids.

[muffi.3964]

So many SJWs here lol. glad I live in a place where most ppl are normal.

[rockshock.6378]

> @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> > @"muffi.3964" said:

> > TB never abused anybody who didn't do a kitten job in the first place

>

> Aaahhh I see, because it's okay to abuse someone bc they're bad at what they're doing (by who's standards?). Yea really makes TB seem like a great kitten guy.

>

 

TB was a video game critic. It was his job to critize the games and content in it. Every video game developer in whatever team they are in is aware of this. Critics say what they feel about a game and a dev can disagree all they want, but it's what being a critic entales. Same as Movie critics and music critics. Your work is gonna be critized and at the same time praised by different people with different views on the content. It's how the world works and it's nothing wrong with it.

[Tolmos.8395]

> @"bernstein adelheid.8590" said:

> The people need to really grow up. Just because you can leave your opinion it doesn't mean you are in the right if you get criticized. Nor that your post is welcomed anyway.

> You're not writers, nor you will be able to make a real decent story. ( Heck, for what i could read during these weeks, most of you just want cut off character for the sake of "game of thrones" wannabe. ) Try to tell to a writer how he should do his job is the straight equivalent to insult it.

> This drama is totally messed up and make me feel that i'm surrounded by underage angry kids.

 

Anyone who feels like that professional work is beyond feedback or criticism, and takes personal insult to those things, will never grow. You have to be able to accept both if you want to be great. That's a fact all of us devs have to live with daily.

[Manasa Devi.7958]

> @"thruine.8510" said:

> But what keeps anti-JPs in the fight? Is there something more than her being fired being needed? Maybe its manfeels (lol, I love that term... I'm going to have to use it more in my life).

How incredibly sexist of you to ignore the actual women in this topic who dislike the way she handled herself..

 

/s.

[Menoitios.8375]

> @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> Because the idea of not telling someone what you think is such a foreign concept for many men that it doesn't even occur to them that their ideas might be absolutely uncalled for.

 

If the only opinions she wanted were from people who agreed with her she could have made her account private. Twitter is inherently a public platform that encourages people to comment on what others post. She could have easily ignored any comment posted, period, and called it a day after her initial post. Did she? No, that is on her, she is the one who acted that way and went where she did when others were trying to have civil discourse on the topic.

 

Let alone there are several private spots she could have posted this with no comments all together, such as a blog.

 

Also, it wasn't just men voicing their opinions, could you be any more sexist?

[Virgil.2601]

> @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> the idea of not telling someone what you think is such a foreign concept for many men

Careful. Your bias is showing.

 

 

[Phosphorite.6192]

> @"rockshock.6378" said:

> TB was a video game critic. It was his job to critize the games and content in it. Every video game developer in whatever team they are in is aware of this. Critics say what they feel about a game and a dev can disagree all they want, but it's what being a critic entales. Same as Movie critics and music critics. Your work is gonna be critized and at the same time praised by different people with different views on the content. It's how the world works and it's nothing wrong with it.

 

Criticizing smth and abusing someone bc you think they did a bad job are VASTLY different things. You equating these two makes me think you're not aware of that and apparently, neither was TB

[rockshock.6378]

> @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> > @"rockshock.6378" said:

> > TB was a video game critic. It was his job to critize the games and content in it. Every video game developer in whatever team they are in is aware of this. Critics say what they feel about a game and a dev can disagree all they want, but it's what being a critic entales. Same as Movie critics and music critics. Your work is gonna be critized and at the same time praised by different people with different views on the content. It's how the world works and it's nothing wrong with it.

>

> Criticizing smth and abusing someone bc you think they did a bad job are VASTLY different things. You equating these two makes me think you're not aware of that and apparently, neither was TB

 

 

You got any sensible facts or proof showing that TB abused Jessica Price? Or do you base your stuff on hearsay?

 

[Menoitios.8375]

> @"Asudementio.8526" said:

> > @"Menoitios.8375" said:

> > > @"Asudementio.8526" said:

> > > > @"Menoitios.8375" said:

> > > > > @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> > > > > > @"Tolmos.8395" said:

> > > > > > Covering your personal twitter with your company's name, acting as a representative of that company via your personal twitter, and then using your personal twitter to make derogatory statements towards people based on protected classes like gender, race, nationality or religion (oh, and also celebrating a cancer victim's death) is not going to end well for anyone.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Saying, after the fact, "it's my personal twitter!" is the corporate equivalent of "I'm not touching you!"

> > > > >

> > > > > All she did was not being complacent in the face of covert sexism, which is something she should be applauded for, not fired.

> > > > >

> > > > > And the only thing I saw her tweet about TBs death was being glad that an abusive person has no longer the opportunity to be abusive, which I'm absolutely fine with.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > There was no covert sexism, it was pretty obvious that Deroir's response **was really well thought out** and crafted to be as objective and inoffensive as possible. In fact, he did such a great job with it you could send that exact message to anyone regardless of their identifiers and it would have been acceptable.

> > > >

> > > .

> > > Note- emphasis mine

> > >

> > > His response was so well thought out that it hinged entirely on **a tool once used in the game but since largely abandoned** for any number of immediately identifiable and obvious reasons that he thought " oh, i bet this female game dev didn't think of this incredibly simple vehicle to use in her work that her coworkers have used in the past; let me remind her to show how shoddy her work is! I am a genius!" Even though the premises that could be readily taken from her previous essay on the character writing would lead you to a number of reasons why deroir's suggestion wasn't being used.

> > >

> > > It reeks of, i don't want to read your reasons why just do it this way because i know better than you.

> > >

> >

> > Note- emphasis mine

> >

> > Yet that's why we did have some branching dialogue this very episode of the living world? All he was saying is that he would like more of it. Also, your post reeks of assuming what Deroir meant because you keep reading into it when there is nothing there other than what it states at face value. Not everyone has an ulterior motive when they say something.

>

> For such an important content creator Deroir really thinks things out! I'm glad he was magically able to divine that there was no reason what-so-ever that large nested branching dialogue isn't in the game for any other reason than developer ineptitude. Thank god he took time to reflect on the question he intended to ask and consider the pros and cons of it's implementation and how it affects other unintended aspects of the game before chiming in.

 

How are you doing these mental gymnastics? You must have a gold medal. He literally said he wanted more of something, that's it, and for the record branching dialogue is in the game even in the most recent content. Let alone where did he imply her ineptitude? Not once did he do anything of the sort, all he did was "slightly disagree", that's it. If all it takes is disagreeing with someone for them to be inept then everyone on this forum (and the internet, period), ever, is inept.

[Phosphorite.6192]

> @"rockshock.6378" said:

> You got any sensible facts or proof showing that TB abused Jessica Price? Or do you base your stuff on hearsay?

 

I never said that TB abused JP. I said that TB was an abusive person and that JP is someone who faces abuse. These two things are separate from each other and both readily available to find information on via google.