GW 2 Devs/Playerbase Twitter Discussion

[Feithlinn.9284]

> @"Mini Crinny.6190" said:

> I'd just like to add - Although very unlikely that people will stop - People are now going one step further and messaging these two people with quite disgusting messages.. what's done is done let them be.

 

They won't stop of course. That was the plan since this whole thing started. Pandora's box is already open.

[omgitsbees.8137]

> @"Bandlero.6312" said:

> Honestly, none of the "debate" and discussion really matters for 1 really simple, important reason:

>

> None of us know what the terms of their employment contracts were with ArenaNet. Since their employment was terminated, they very likely did in-fact violate the terms of their employment (aka did wrong.) Also, they were also probably let go with generous severance packages.

 

ArenaNet is located in Washington State, there likely was no contract. An employer can fire someone for any reason there.

[CETheLucid.3964]

> @"omgitsbees.8137" said:

> Something else I keep seeing get swept under the rug is that Jessica Price was literally encouraged to speak her mind and be loud, by her very employer. She told ArenaNet during her interview process with the company that this is how she acts on social media and she had no plans of stopping, and they gave her the thumbs up. It's super telling that Arena Net is okay with firing a woman for speaking her mind.

 

Encouraged to speak your mind != Going nuclear on an avid fan and community contributor that did nothing to warrant such a response

 

Her dude was just trying to have a conversation. The rest of the sludge that came up (and man was there some sludge indeed) was a direct result of her own doing.

 

Not sure if it was someone here or on reddit that said it, but (paraphrasing) she really needed to turn her phone off that day. 4th of July. Fireworks, BBQ, Spirits!

 

Pity.

[Aedelric.1287]

I will miss Peter, he seemed like a genuinely nice guy judging by his appearances on Guild Chat. I wish he just kept out of JP's Twitter attacks, there was no reason for him to go down with her.

 

Josh Foreman you are my other favourite Arena Net developer do not get fired! I would not be pleased.

[Bandlero.6312]

> @"omgitsbees.8137" said:

> > @"Bandlero.6312" said:

> > Honestly, none of the "debate" and discussion really matters for 1 really simple, important reason:

> >

> > None of us know what the terms of their employment contracts were with ArenaNet. Since their employment was terminated, they very likely did in-fact violate the terms of their employment (aka did wrong.) Also, they were also probably let go with generous severance packages.

>

> ArenaNet is located in Washington State, there likely was no contract. An employer can fire someone for any reason there.

 

There's always a contract; however it can have "Termination Without Cause" provisions.

[Zero Of Shadow.2576]

> @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> > https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/6/17541318/guild-wars-arenanet-jessica-price-peter-fries-fired-reddit

> > And she learned nothing. Good riddance, at first I felt bad about someone losing their job, but blaming everyone but herself and pulling the sexism card again. I still feel bad for Peter, I feel he was collateral damage. Hopefuly anet vets people better with their social media BEFORE they get hired. I know hine sight is 20/20 but she had questional things on Twitter before she was hired. Peter might still have a job if they held that standard.

> > It reminds me a teacher who got fired for supporting segregation on facebook, and another district hire her and found out about it afterwards and fired her again. The first istance was the teachers fault, the second was district failing to do the proper vetting.

>

> And I am absolutely with her on this.

>

> "Furthermore, ArenaNet was not only aware of her outspoken approach to discussing similar issues on social media but encouraging of it. During a job interview with the company, she had told them she was “loud about these issues on social media and had no intention of shutting up. They reassured me that they ‘admired [my] willingness to speak truth to power.’”"

>

> Huh how fast the tables can turn.

 

nothing wrong with supporting feminism on any medium, until you start using it as a means to harm others, that hurts both the cause, and slanders the names of others, this entire situation is the example

[Shoyoko.7309]

https://kotaku.com/guild-wars-2-writers-fired-for-calling-out-fan-on-twitt-1827401422

smh...

compared to (skip to 4:20)

bless deroir

[Phosphorite.6192]

> @"Manasa Devi.7958" said:

> > @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> >

> > "Furthermore, ArenaNet was not only aware of her outspoken approach to discussing similar issues on social media but encouraging of it. During a job interview with the company, she had told them she was “loud about these issues on social media and had no intention of shutting up. They reassured me that they ‘admired [my] willingness to speak truth to power.’”"

> >

> > Huh how fast the tables can turn.

> I don't think the people at ANet meant for her to create the issues. That's a step beyond discussing them.

>

> And it's quite shocking that someone "willing to speak truth to power" would talk about the death of TotalBiscuit the way she did.

 

She told then how she handles stuff and they told her they support her. So that's in anet.

 

And weirdly nobody in the company ever complained to her about her TB tweet. But all of the sudden she's "going to far"? Yea sure

[Sondergaard.8469]

> @"omgitsbees.8137" said:

> Something else I keep seeing get swept under the rug is that Jessica Price was literally encouraged to speak her mind and be loud, by her very employer. She told ArenaNet during her interview process with the company that this is how she acts on social media and she had no plans of stopping, and they gave her the thumbs up. It's super telling that Arena Net is okay with firing a woman for speaking her mind.

 

It's one thing to have an opinion and speak your mind. It's quite a different situation to step away from opinion and launch an all out verbal assault against a community of players.

[omgitsbees.8137]

> @"Sondergaard.8469" said:

> > @"omgitsbees.8137" said:

> > Something else I keep seeing get swept under the rug is that Jessica Price was literally encouraged to speak her mind and be loud, by her very employer. She told ArenaNet during her interview process with the company that this is how she acts on social media and she had no plans of stopping, and they gave her the thumbs up. It's super telling that Arena Net is okay with firing a woman for speaking her mind.

>

> It's one thing to have an opinion and speak your mind. It's quite a different situation to step away from opinion and launch an all out verbal assault against a community of players.

 

Again, this is not at all what happened.

[Zero Of Shadow.2576]

> @"omgitsbees.8137" said:

> > @"Sondergaard.8469" said:

> > > @"omgitsbees.8137" said:

> > > Something else I keep seeing get swept under the rug is that Jessica Price was literally encouraged to speak her mind and be loud, by her very employer. She told ArenaNet during her interview process with the company that this is how she acts on social media and she had no plans of stopping, and they gave her the thumbs up. It's super telling that Arena Net is okay with firing a woman for speaking her mind.

> >

> > It's one thing to have an opinion and speak your mind. It's quite a different situation to step away from opinion and launch an all out verbal assault against a community of players.

>

> Again, this is not at all what happened.

 

>

 

she turned what was **one** person stating what **they like** (read:not actually demanding/requesting a change) and turn it into a gender issue, you are attacking 50% of the population for the way they speak.

 

like im sorry, but if you spend any amount of time in a social setting you become aware **everyone** talks in the "oh yeah thats fair, i personally really like doing it like..." way. thats just how people talk, and then she turned it into a gender issue.

[Rakio.2597]

How disappointing.

 

Does ArenaNet have a strict communication policy that you enforce regularly or any training on that topic?

 

Does ArenaNet have anybody working actively with diversity and gender equality questions? Do employees get training on that? Does management?

 

Doesn't look like that. In the end it's about a vocal minority of the fan base that is easily offended.

[Twyn.7320]

> @"Feithlinn.9284" said:

> > From what I've seen, the people who dislike the decision are in the minority. The majority, along with the various media outlets with any kind of influence are back to promoting the game as it should be, and praising ArenaNet for setting the industry example. Their own employees are hurt by the sudden decision, however, Matthew Medina recently posted, and I quote:

> >

> > 'There's a lot of fear and anxious feelings going around today, so let me just make it clear:

> >

> > Can't stop, won't stop, engaging with our game's fans and players on Twitter.

> >

> > That is all.' - Matthew Medina, or the Hero of Path of Fire IMO.

> >

> > The employees are aware that the fired members were in the wrong, and they've accepted that. I'm aware that Matthew is one person in a large company, but he's in a role of authority, especially in the Narrative Department. From this horrendous PR, somehow, ArenaNet's managed to spin it into amazing PR for the game and restored a lot of respect with players who felt disillusioned with the direction of Guild Wars 2. It was nice to hear from Mike again, and get the re-assurance that the community is actually important, not people with regressive attitudes.

>

> Even if they are the minority which I highly doubt what is your point? Minority is not part of the community or should the company ignore them completely?

>

> I already saw what Matthew Medina posted and we'll see if he will keep his promise the most importantly under what circumstances .

>

 

Minority in the case that they're the minority from what I've seen over the last couple of days. That's all. I didn't mean it in any other way. Ultimately, a company will always focus on the majority, which is the section of the community that's fine with the decision, and moving on. There are two minority factions right now: People who vehemently disagree with their firing to the point of insulting people who agree with ArenaNet and witch-hunting them. And people who strongly agree to the point of witch-hunting Jessica Price and Peter Fries, taking an 'eye for an eye' approach. The vast majority have just said: 'Okay, fine, nice to know that we're safe in ArenaNet's eyes' and moved on with their lives.

[Einlanzer.1627]

> @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> > @"muffi.3964" said:

> > > @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> > > > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> > > > https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/6/17541318/guild-wars-arenanet-jessica-price-peter-fries-fired-reddit

> > > > And she learned nothing. Good riddance, at first I felt bad about someone losing their job, but blaming everyone but herself and pulling the sexism card again. I still feel bad for Peter, I feel he was collateral damage. Hopefuly anet vets people better with their social media BEFORE they get hired. I know hine sight is 20/20 but she had questional things on Twitter before she was hired. Peter might still have a job if they held that standard.

> > > > It reminds me a teacher who got fired for supporting segregation on facebook, and another district hire her and found out about it afterwards and fired her again. The first istance was the teachers fault, the second was district failing to do the proper vetting.

> > >

> > > And I am absolutely with her on this.

> > >

> > > "Furthermore, ArenaNet was not only aware of her outspoken approach to discussing similar issues on social media but encouraging of it. During a job interview with the company, she had told them she was “loud about these issues on social media and had no intention of shutting up. They reassured me that they ‘admired [my] willingness to speak truth to power.’”"

> > >

> > > Huh how fast the tables can turn.

> >

> >

> > Insulting customers while being racist and misandrist is not "voicing the truth"

>

> Again, Racism against white people is not a thing and voicing frustration about men being condescending and putting them in their place is not misandry.

 

Yes, it absolutely is. Prejuduce + power is a stipulative redefinition of the word racism to fit a political agenda where white people are always oppressors and minorities are always victims, which is absolutely not how modern society works, and it's ludicrous to suggest otherwise. The word racism has been used for eons to refer to any form of racial prejudice, which non-whites absolutely can and often do possess, and it's every bit as toxic as white racism.

[PecanBlue.4965]

> @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> Again, Racism against white people is not a thing and voicing frustration about men being condescending and putting them in their place is not misandry.

 

Misandry isn't even a thing that's real just like racism against white people but posters here sure like to use that word a lot and in the same breath cry about how she plays the "sexism card" lmao.

 

 

[Haleydawn.3764]

Trojan Horse comes to mind.

[voltaicbore.8012]

I found JP's response a bit harsh and overreactive (I personally agree with the well-reasoned and discussed limitations on RP dictated by the LW format), but I just wish there was a less all-or-nothing solution. I mean, from a corporate/PR standpoint I understand that termination is just the smart choice these days, but I'm just saddened that that's the right call in the current environment.

[DemonNinja.1602]

> @"Mike O Brien.4613" said:

> Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company.

>

> I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you.

>

> Mo

 

As a fellow game developer myself, I am glad to see this action taken. Regardless of if it is your personal social media or not - social media is public, and if you write about your work it becomes about your work. These developers, especially JP were completely out of line and I think that the punishment was fitting. JP has a history of toxic condescending behavior on twitter and honestly this is probably the pop in the mouth she needed. I applaud MO for taking a stance and understanding that we make games for players, because we are players ourselves, and just because you get paid for your opinion - in the case of game design - it doesn't invalidate the opinion of others. As I explained this to a friend... If she were a hair dresser who told every client who sat in her chair that the style they wanted was wrong and that they didn't know what they wanted then she would be out of work. It holds true here. Do not let your expertise and professionalism blind you to the fact that you are a servant to those who pay your way - in this case the players - and should you treat them poorly by condescending them, their feedback, and their requests - just like in any other business - they will take their money some place else.

 

Bravo MO and ArenaNet - its not easy making the right decision, but its always the right decision to make the right decision.

[Scud.5067]

> @"voltaicbore.8012" said:

> I found JP's response a bit harsh and overreactive (I personally agree with the well-reasoned and discussed limitations on RP dictated by the LW format), but I just wish there was a less all-or-nothing solution. I mean, from a corporate/PR standpoint I understand that termination is just the smart choice these days, but I'm just saddened that that's the right call in the current environment.

 

Regardless of the justification, bullying and prejudice cannot be condoned - and Anet were wise to distance themselves from it.

 

To be clear - she clearly demonstrated prejudice and bullying behaviour.

 

Unless anyone things the way she behaved was ok? Justified?

 

Ha.

 

And hey, perhaps they were given the chance to apologize and refuse? We'll never know.

[Twyn.7320]

And now, I've lost every bit of sympathy for her that was potentially left. Now that she's gone, she's trying to throw ArenaNet under the bus to further her own career prospects.

 

“[CEO Mike O’Brien] told me I was going to look back and regret this because we were doing amazing work and I ruined it,” Price said. “The only regrets I’ve ever had, however, have been in situations where I didn’t stand up for myself, not ones in which I did, and I don’t expect that to change any time soon. My only real regret here is that I encouraged other women to come on board and promised them it was a safe company for them.” - Kotaku.

 

So, she's forgotten the part where she was removed for being offensive to the community, and that ArenaNet is actually a safe company for women. According to Jessica, ArenaNet is anti-women? This is actually crazy.

[Itzena.8452]

> @"muffi.3964" said:

> > @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> > > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> > > https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/6/17541318/guild-wars-arenanet-jessica-price-peter-fries-fired-reddit

> > > And she learned nothing. Good riddance, at first I felt bad about someone losing their job, but blaming everyone but herself and pulling the sexism card again. I still feel bad for Peter, I feel he was collateral damage. Hopefuly anet vets people better with their social media BEFORE they get hired. I know hine sight is 20/20 but she had questional things on Twitter before she was hired. Peter might still have a job if they held that standard.

> > > It reminds me a teacher who got fired for supporting segregation on facebook, and another district hire her and found out about it afterwards and fired her again. The first istance was the teachers fault, the second was district failing to do the proper vetting.

> >

> > And I am absolutely with her on this.

> >

> > "Furthermore, ArenaNet was not only aware of her outspoken approach to discussing similar issues on social media but encouraging of it. During a job interview with the company, she had told them she was “loud about these issues on social media and had no intention of shutting up. They reassured me that they ‘admired [my] willingness to speak truth to power.’”"

> >

> > Huh how fast the tables can turn.

>

>

> misandrist

Oh dear.

 

 

[Feithlinn.9284]

> Minority in the case that they're the minority from what I've seen over the last couple of days. That's all. I didn't mean it in any other way. Ultimately, a company will always focus on the majority, which is the section of the community that's fine with the decision, and moving on. There are two minority factions right now: People who vehemently disagree with their firing to the point of insulting people who agree with ArenaNet and witch-hunting them. And people who strongly agree to the point of witch-hunting Jessica Price and Peter Fries, taking an 'eye for an eye' approach. The vast majority have just said: 'Okay, fine, nice to know that we're safe in ArenaNet's eyes' and moved on with their lives.

 

No , the real vast majority said nothing at all.

 

On the other hand someone of the people you consider vast majority is the one that said “We can probably fire anyone on the GW2 dev team as long we make a big enough stink. Nobody at Arenanet is safe from the hand of Reddit... The moment a dev steps out of line or try to talk back to a player, guess what, they’ll know we got their hands on their throat and we can squeeze any time we like.”

 

Company made the decision though focusing on the latter "majority". Can't wait to find out who's next on the line.

 

 

 

[CETheLucid.3964]

> @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> > @"muffi.3964" said:

> > > @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> > > > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> > > > https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/6/17541318/guild-wars-arenanet-jessica-price-peter-fries-fired-reddit

> > > > And she learned nothing. Good riddance, at first I felt bad about someone losing their job, but blaming everyone but herself and pulling the sexism card again. I still feel bad for Peter, I feel he was collateral damage. Hopefuly anet vets people better with their social media BEFORE they get hired. I know hine sight is 20/20 but she had questional things on Twitter before she was hired. Peter might still have a job if they held that standard.

> > > > It reminds me a teacher who got fired for supporting segregation on facebook, and another district hire her and found out about it afterwards and fired her again. The first istance was the teachers fault, the second was district failing to do the proper vetting.

> > >

> > > And I am absolutely with her on this.

> > >

> > > "Furthermore, ArenaNet was not only aware of her outspoken approach to discussing similar issues on social media but encouraging of it. During a job interview with the company, she had told them she was “loud about these issues on social media and had no intention of shutting up. They reassured me that they ‘admired [my] willingness to speak truth to power.’”"

> > >

> > > Huh how fast the tables can turn.

> >

> >

> > Insulting customers while being racist and misandrist is not "voicing the truth"

>

> Again, Racism against white people is not a thing and voicing frustration about men being condescending and putting them in their place is not misandry.

 

Except Deroir wasn't being condescending in the least. Where racism is coming from in this is as much of a mystery as where she got sociopolitical gender issues out of a minor disagreement on video game narrative.

 

You guys have some really active imaginations. I wish you'd use it for good.

[Dante.1763]

> @"Twyn.7320" said:

> And now, I've lost every bit of sympathy for her that was potentially left. Now that she's gone, she's trying to throw ArenaNet under the bus to further her own career prospects.

>

> “[CEO Mike O’Brien] told me I was going to look back and regret this because we were doing amazing work and I ruined it,” Price said. “The only regrets I’ve ever had, however, have been in situations where I didn’t stand up for myself, not ones in which I did, and I don’t expect that to change any time soon. My only real regret here is that I encouraged other women to come on board and promised them it was a safe company for them.” - Kotaku.

>

> So, she's forgotten the part where she was removed for being offensive to the community, and that ArenaNet is actually a safe company for women. According to Jessica, ArenaNet is anti-women? This is actually crazy.

 

Eesh thats just jacked up stupid hard.

[Phosphorite.6192]

> @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> > @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> > > @"muffi.3964" said:

> > > > @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> > > > > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> > > > > https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/6/17541318/guild-wars-arenanet-jessica-price-peter-fries-fired-reddit

> > > > > And she learned nothing. Good riddance, at first I felt bad about someone losing their job, but blaming everyone but herself and pulling the sexism card again. I still feel bad for Peter, I feel he was collateral damage. Hopefuly anet vets people better with their social media BEFORE they get hired. I know hine sight is 20/20 but she had questional things on Twitter before she was hired. Peter might still have a job if they held that standard.

> > > > > It reminds me a teacher who got fired for supporting segregation on facebook, and another district hire her and found out about it afterwards and fired her again. The first istance was the teachers fault, the second was district failing to do the proper vetting.

> > > >

> > > > And I am absolutely with her on this.

> > > >

> > > > "Furthermore, ArenaNet was not only aware of her outspoken approach to discussing similar issues on social media but encouraging of it. During a job interview with the company, she had told them she was “loud about these issues on social media and had no intention of shutting up. They reassured me that they ‘admired [my] willingness to speak truth to power.’”"

> > > >

> > > > Huh how fast the tables can turn.

> > >

> > >

> > > Insulting customers while being racist and misandrist is not "voicing the truth"

> >

> > Again, Racism against white people is not a thing and voicing frustration about men being condescending and putting them in their place is not misandry.

>

> Except Deroir wasn't being condescending in the least. Where racism is coming from in this is as much of a mystery as where she got sociopolitical gender issues out of a minor disagreement on video game narrative.

>

> You guys have some really active imaginations. I wish you'd use it for good.

 

It doesn't matter if Deroir was trying to be condescending or not. Effect > intention. I'm repeating myself but he disregarded her thought out, clearly written essay with an "well actually" kind of post, no matter how polite he worded it. It's not only about him doing it, it's about men always feeling entitled to chime in on whatever just bc they feel like it. And that is very much a sexism issue.