Tris Apollumenon.6435 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 It's extremely upsetting to see how willing Anet was to throw employees to the mob -- not only was there absolutely no move to speak out against the detailed, sexually explicit abuse that the employees received, but the employees in question were _fired_? The massive response to this by Gamergaters already underscored the hostility of this environment. The **official statement** from Mike himself, stating that a single unprofessionally snarky Twitter thread expressing frustration at being habitually belittled = "attacking the community", only makes it clear that in Anet's eyes, whatever "the community" means, I don't count. Playtime, enthusiasm, time spent helping new players, money spent on gems and DLCs -- arguments could be made for any of those as factors toward being in a given community, but in this case it seems like the overriding definition is "Community == I want devs to be INSTANTLY FIRED the first time they make a frustrated comment in public or back up their colleagues". I was willing to Block And Move On for ages and ages, even as a WvW player having to deal with tons of teamchat trolls and having to do another blockathon every time a new world alliance rolls around. MMO online communities are hard to moderate, and I recognize that. But having this edict come from above, as an official ArenaNet statement from the top guy himself, that's damning. That hurts. I know the asshole troll types are all too happy for people like me to get out of their games, but like... games are supposed to be fun. This was my _hobby_, not some kind of activist crusade. I'm too old and tired to stick it out to Make A Statement or Fight The Good Fight when even the top authority is saying "You are not welcome here. Harassers and misogynists, _you_ are welcome." More power to those who are determined or thick-skinned enough to persevere. I don't think I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harper.4173 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > @"muffi.3964" said: > > LOL@People citing KOTAKU. Those are not even real journalists, their writing style is horrible and they have less viewers than people like pewdiepie. Gaming journalism is dead for a reason. > > Just because you don't like them and don't agree with them, doesn't mean they aren't journalists. After all, journalism isn't a profession that serves to cater to one's own biases ;) > > But it does show that gaming industry is increasingly being discredited thanks to folks like kitten. No - journalism is a profession where one presents particularly that aspect of reality which will gain them the most benefit on an individual or company scale. Just like restaurants - there are journalists who cater to anyone's tastes and biases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dengar.1785 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Tris Apollumenon.6435" said: > It's extremely upsetting to see how willing Anet was to throw employees to the mob -- not only was there absolutely no move to speak out against the detailed, sexually explicit abuse that the employees received, but the employees in question were _fired_? > > The massive response to this by Gamergaters already underscored the hostility of this environment. The **official statement** from Mike himself, stating that a single unprofessionally snarky Twitter thread expressing frustration at being habitually belittled = "attacking the community", only makes it clear that in Anet's eyes, whatever "the community" means, I don't count. Playtime, enthusiasm, time spent helping new players, money spent on gems and DLCs -- arguments could be made for any of those as factors toward being in a given community, but in this case it seems like the overriding definition is "Community == I want devs to be INSTANTLY FIRED the first time they make a frustrated comment in public or back up their colleagues". > > I was willing to Block And Move On for ages and ages, even as a WvW player having to deal with tons of teamchat trolls and having to do another blockathon every time a new world alliance rolls around. MMO online communities are hard to moderate, and I recognize that. But having this edict come from above, as an official ArenaNet statement from the top guy himself, that's damning. That hurts. > > I know the kitten troll types are all too happy for people like me to get out of their games, but like... games are supposed to be fun. This was my _hobby_, not some kind of activist crusade. I'm too old and tired to stick it out to Make A Statement or Fight The Good Fight when even the top authority is saying "You are not welcome here. Harassers and misogynists, _you_ are welcome." More power to those who are determined or thick-skinned enough to persevere. I don't think I can. Why do people insist on bringing up dead movements from years ago? Or for that matter, why do people insist on lying this much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harper.4173 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > @"TheNecrosanct.4028" said: > > I am wondering whether all the people who find JP's firing an overreaction have actually built up careers. A simple Google search on "fired because of social media" gives you a slew of examples. People fired because of inappropriate posts, racist posts, misplaced jokes, posts unrelated to their work on social media accounts and on accounts not tied to their employer. This really is not a strange or outrageous phenomenon, but an obvious one for any of us who have careers. Of course, when you display your employment on your account and post your official work there as well, the connection is a no-brainer, as are the consequences for negative and socially unacceptable behavior, and even beliefs. > > > > Claims of "having the right to sue for wrongful termination" in the case of PF I also don't understand. What do these people know of the internal goings on at ANet's office that the rest of us don't? How are they privvy to this non-public information? How do they know all the steps taken? How do they know ANet hasn't offered both of them to make an apology, and how do they know how either JP or PF responded? If you also don't understand the dangerous legal position ANet would place themselves in if they had fired only JP and not PF, in a case where sexism was used in an accusatory fashion, you are not as knowledgeable about these topics as you think you are. JP legally can't use the sexism card against her former employer anymore, because they fired both a man and a woman over this incident. She can claim it in the media, but legally she doesn't have a foot to stand on with that argument. > > > > Just stop making claims based on assumptions, for which you need information none of us are privvy to because we don't work at ANet. We don't know all the details, we don't have copies of any internal documentation regarding this case, we don't have copies of ANet's contract of employment, we don't know what legal counsel they have received (though people with a legal background, especially in employment, would know these things). Yet people still make claims that can only be made by actually having all this information. And I'm pretty sure they don't have it, any of it. > > > > Claims about an alt-right mob are even more ludicrous, if people had even done their homework. Before MO made his announcement, there was very little alt-right trolling, mob mentality or baying going on. It may have increased after his announcement, but it's typical alt-right behavior to spot a situation they can benefit from and jump in and make claims about it, or even appropriate it. Lumping all reasonable and well thought out responses taking a stand against JP's behavior together with the baying trolls is doing a disservice, it's dumb and incredibly transparent. By putting the emphasis on that you're giving them more power than they have. They're trying to incite the mob mentality where there is none and to a certain extent their tactic has worked. Let's not give them the satisfaction and give them more power and influence. JP's behavoir against a customer and official partner to ANet is unacceptable, PF publicly taking a stand with her was a mistake on his part, and public opinion is very much a factor, whether we like it or not. Without the public, most companies do not survive. Without the public, most of us wouldn't have a job. So their perception is important and should always be considered from a business point of view. It's easy to make this personal, or even ideological, while at its core it's just business and public image. Social media is not private and if you actively espouse your employer and talk about your work on such a platform, it's neither private nor personal. It is the weakest excuse in this situation, and both JP and PF know this, whether they want to admit it or not. I really don't believe either of them would be this naïve. > > > > Edit: grammar > > The problem is the hypocrisy. After all the folks who cheered that JP was fired are also the same people who cried and protested when Subnautica fired one of their developers for stupid stuff he said on his own twitter post. No matter how one slices it, it's an alt-right mob. So you're surprised certain people fight and aggregate based on their opinions and shared beliefs? What else is new? Still - I think you're going to far when you plaster everyone with "alt-right mob" - I might as well say anyone who's not wielding pitchforks and torches is a "left-wing terrorist". See how easy it is to label? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harper.4173 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > @"Tolmos.8395" said: > > > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > > > @"muffi.3964" said: > > > > LOL@People citing KOTAKU. Those are not even real journalists, their writing style is horrible and they have less viewers than people like pewdiepie. Gaming journalism is dead for a reason. > > > > > > Just because you don't like them and don't agree with them, doesn't mean they aren't journalists. After all, journalism isn't a profession that serves to cater to one's own biases ;) > > > > > > But it does show that gaming industry is increasingly being discredited thanks to folks like kitten. > > > > Kotaku's big issue is that their brand of journalism is sensational only. They selectively hand-pick facts to try to create the most rage-worthy story they can muster, and leave out really important aspects that actually add context to the situation. You could have a situation where a young woman grabs a knife and tries to stab some random guy on the street, and he pushes her to the ground right before she manages to kill him. The Kotaku article would be titled "Man pushes woman to the ground" > > You can say that about any gaming site in general. One Angry Gamer, IGN, Gamespot, Gameranx, the Escapist, etc. It's only sensational and cherry picking if one doesn't agree with the article, for others it's just the facts presented to them. It's almost as if the press was constantly lying, and the only difference between truth or deception was how one prefers to see the situation. Hmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harper.4173 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > @"Tolmos.8395" said: > > > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > > > @"Tolmos.8395" said: > > > > > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > > > > > @"muffi.3964" said: > > > > > > LOL@People citing KOTAKU. Those are not even real journalists, their writing style is horrible and they have less viewers than people like pewdiepie. Gaming journalism is dead for a reason. > > > > > > > > > > Just because you don't like them and don't agree with them, doesn't mean they aren't journalists. After all, journalism isn't a profession that serves to cater to one's own biases ;) > > > > > > > > > > But it does show that gaming industry is increasingly being discredited thanks to folks like kitten. > > > > > > > > Kotaku's big issue is that their brand of journalism is sensational only. They selectively hand-pick facts to try to create the most rage-worthy story they can muster, and leave out really important aspects that actually add context to the situation. You could have a situation where a young woman grabs a knife and tries to stab some random guy on the street, and he pushes her to the ground right before she manages to kill him. The Kotaku article would be titled "Man pushes woman to the ground" > > > > > > You can say that about any gaming site in general. One Angry Gamer, IGN, Gamespot, Gameranx, the Escapist, etc. It's only sensational and cherry picking if one doesn't agree with the article, for others it's just the facts presented to them. > > > > Websites like NPR and Reuters try to actively avoid that by giving all of the facts, which is the main contention folks have with things like Kotaku. > > > > Take "The Verge" article on this situation, for instance. The facts they presented lacked quite a few key pieces: > > > > * The streamer in question always looked up to JP and greatly respected her. He was trying to basically have a conversation about a topic he loved with someone he idolized > > > > * There was no mention of how a large portion of the outrage came from her remarks celebrating the death of Total Biscuit after he died from cancer, or the other bigoted comments about race that she made elsewhere in her feed > > > > * There was no mention of the fact that her twitter directly listed Arenanet, and being an employee of Arenanet, in several places; something that has gotten MANY people fired across many industries when making derogatory statements about folks based on race, gender, nationality or religion > > > > * It didn't show any of the streamer's heartbreakingly sweet and considerate responses to her toxic vitriol trying to deescalate the situation, apologizing profusely despite not actually knowing why or what he did wrong. > > > > > > Instead, the article sought only to create an image of fear mongering: that this poor developer posted on her twitter, an evil-man pig told her to shut up, smile and listen to how it's really done, and then she was fired because reddit was pissed she didn't make them all sammiches. Oh, and watch out other developers of Arenanet: you're probably next! Reddit just has to say the word and Arenanet will have the paperwork filed by lunch! > > > > That may be journalism, but only in-so-much as the magazines next to cash registers talking about how Bill Clinton met with aliens in a limousine are journalism. > > Not even NPR and Reuters is safe though; after all, tribal epistemology is supreme on the internet. And on your points: Well there are a few wrinkles with a couple of them. > > 1. TB is pretty much a very divisive figure in the gaming community, thanks to his pro-consumer advocacy being hijacked and twisted by the likes of kitten (which people still believe TB was a part of). Plus, keep in mind that on the net, people are more open about their thoughts and opinions because of, again, distance and anonymity, and that includes lashing out at someone after they just passed away. As for the bigoted comments on race, you'll have to show me those (because JP installed a GG autoblock bot, and due to me tweeting negatively about that community, I'm automatically on the list) > 2. People still have the notion that their personal twitter is just that, personal. Many people still don't know that companies watch over their social media profiles like a vulture-like big brother. > 3. Something to keep in mind is that while it may have come off as sweet and considerate for many, and it's likely what Deroir intended. For others it likely came off as shallow, condescending and douchey. People don't share the same universal perspectives. > > There's also the fact the on right-wing gaming outlets (in the form of OAG and many, many YT channels), they are guilty of doing the same thing, only trying to portray the developers as rabid kitten's who attacked the community in general and that the big 'gaming media' is trying to defend the developers. > > https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2018/07/weekly-recap-july-7th-guild-wars-2-devs-fired-for-attacking-fans-adl-targets-kitten/63244/ Point 2 is just laughable. Work in the industry for even one year - link your workplace in your profile and you think the claim that "She didn't know man" still holds any water. Please. Point 3 is absurd. Have we lost all manner of objectivity? He was civil and polite. Again - if you can't take any sort of criticism - why even post anything? Why not just hide in the safety of not posting anything? I get that perspectives are unique - but you can't look at something and call it something it's not just because that's how you see it. Or you can - but it's not exactly the truth now is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dengar.1785 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 Still waiting for that quote that proves he was being douchey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harper.4173 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"Tolmos.8395" said: > > > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > > Wow, you guys do have a hard on for politics dont you? How about we just stop eh, everything that had to be said, have been said at this point, the conversation is going nowhere and will keep giving amunition and fuel to this drama, its time to stop.... > > > [youtube.com/watch?v=2k0SmqbBIpQ]( "youtube.com/watch?v=2k0SmqbBIpQ") > > > > If ever there was an acceptable time to drop an link to Frozen's "Let It Go"... > > > > I am disappoint. :( > > Right now I'm not even really debating. I'm just posting up random thoughts that come to mind on the subject. By the time it reaches 40 pages, the people who are still going are the unreasonable types, so instead of giving their points weight I just link to quippy videos. And me - I made it late to this party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > > > @"CETheLucid.3964" said: > > > > > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > > > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > > > Personally I'm still in disbelief that this has happened. Mostly because I've seen the opposite happen about a dozen times. Normally, when confronted about this behavior, they double down and the company they're a part of backs them fully. It is what happened with the comic book industry. It is what happened with journalism. It is what happened with most independent forums that I used to visit. It is what happened to most television shows I used to watch. It is what happened to Magic: The Gathering. It is what happened to countless videogame studios. It is what happened to social sciences. It is what happened to Canada. What do you mean "Canada isn't an industry"? Maple Syrup is a thing! > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, the point being that way too many businesses put complete faith into far-left extremism, and it goes horribly. The businesses assume that all of these people preaching about microaggressions and the patriarchy know what they're talking about, and that everyone disagreeing with the message is proof of the message. GW2 appeared to be right on that track, with Arenanet being "An ideals driven company" and all that. I expected GW2 to give in and Get Woke, Go Broke eventually. When I said that the next LWS4 update would have Tiami go into a diatribe about mansplaining, I was serious. But when Mike dropped the hammer on JP hard, it restored my faith in the company. > > > > > > > > > > > > The sad part is, I don't think JP is going to learn from this. "kitten always double down" is a phrase for a reason. She'll get snatched up by another game developer that values her stances, and she'll continue man-hating and mass blocking for eternity. Because the moral of this story can't possibly be "treat customers well," "not all adversity is sexism," "branching dialogue is a good thing," or "misandry is bad, too." The moral is "There's a massive conspiracy of alt-right extremist men secretly in control of the gaming industry, and we need to prune our customer base and refuse to serve them." How could it be anything else? But hey, I've been wrong before. > > > > > > > > > > So when companies put complete faith into far-right extremism, it's alright, but when it's far-left it's a no-no. Thanks for being transparent showing us why the gaming industry is forever effed. > > > > > > > > In what timeline can you reasonably connect Anet to far right extremism? Don't you think you're being just a _tad_ disingenuous with this narrative? > > > > > > Funny. I never said Anet in connection to far-right extremism. I said companies in general. But the fact that people are more worried about far-left extremism in general then, well, extremism period, really shows how screwed the gaming industry is. > > > > I'm worried about all extremism. What's new with "this" extremism is to constantly claim having the higher grounds while in reality promoting double standard everywhere in their narrative. You've seen it a lot in this thread, even more in journal medias. It does not matter what this content creator was thinking or whether he was just giving feedback or anything, what matters is how the "victim" side FELT about it. > > And that is extremely dangerous. It's fantasy before reality, guilty until proven innocent. > > > > At the end of the day you could summarize it this way: A non-radical person would have either answered in a neutral manner if they thought the feedback was appropriate, or dismissed it/delete it if they thought it was. If said person was in a period of burn out, they would have said something snarky, and then apologized later after realizing it was wrong to say that from a HUMAN BEING to a HUMAN BEING. > > This is gender-less. > > A radical feminist will add gender to all of that, and instead of just realizing they were rude, will fantasize about the intent behind something rather than the content itself, and from now on will use it as a justification to their behavior, claiming that their "rude" behavior somewhat explains their rude response. > > I don't exactly see a difference between the extremes here. All extremes are basically indulging in some form of discrimination based on a physical property that one individual cannot change. The "far left" is just more sneaky at it (without realizing it maybe?), while getting the support of medias. > > > > And we get non sense like "the gw2 community being full of alt rights" or "star wars people who didn't like the latest movies are alt-right sexists" and whatever. > > This is the danger right there, shortcuts of reality that no longer bother in fact checking anything, but instead will assume everyone going against a person with higher moral high grounds is necessarily evil from the other extreme side. > > > > Ask yourself, how many people here have leaned to the right because of incidents like this? How many people are associating actual feminist movements for women rights to this? How many women here are supportive of ArenaNet while this dev is pretending to speak in the name of them all? > > Again, this basically looks like it's okay when right-wing extremists do this stuff (and yes, they have claimed higher grounds while in reality promoting double standards everywhere in their narrative), but when left-wing extremists do it, suddenly it's trouble and we have to stop it. I mean good lord this is basically what I am talking about. > > I mean replace "Feminists" with Extremists MRA's who add gender to all of that, and you get the same thing. And also, the far-right is getting their support from the media as well if were going that route. Fox, Breitbart, every-right wing outlet is guilty of it. > > So let me ask you this in return. How many people have leaned to the left because of incidents like this? How many people are associating actual Men's rights movements who are trying to highlight legitimate issues to this? How many men think that JP and especially PF were thrown under the bus while the 'community' champions this as ArenaNet standing up for the consumer? No, it doesn't "basically look like it's ok when right wing extremists". It's a false equivalence. I don't know how you could get that from my message. You're demonstrating the point I was making that if you don't agree with what extreme left say, you're automatically siding with extreme right... the very FIRST thing I said is "I'm worried about all extremism". The current problem has to do with extreme left. So of course we're talking about that. There's still a majority of people "between" extreme left and extreme right in the society and they can't just be tagged as alt right whenever convenient. If there's any trace of extreme right in this forum I would love to see it. I'm sure reddit have some, but again conveniently extracting them and quoting them in an article is dishonest at best, it absolutely doesn't reflect this community by any mean, just like a radical feminist doesn't reflect the feminist movement (thankfully...) So unlike you i'll actually answer: - Nobody not already in any extreme would lean more toward an extreme resulting to this, as this was a clear example of extreme exploding on a person just stating an opinion under sexist pretension. If anything, that video showing the guy praising the dev a few days before it happens makes it crystal clear what his intentions were (and more importantly, were not... since it's a guilty until proven innocent now...). So many good things can come out of progressivism, but something like that personally make me want to say : PAUSE, let's rollback a little and make sure we haven't messed up somewhere. - I had to google what that "men's right movement" was. I didn't even know it was a thing. But there again, please read the posts of this thread, the huge majority of us are pro-feminism and want absolute equal opportunity in just about every aspect of life. But "equal opportunity" doesn't mean anyone has to put up with attempts to turn things around and dismiss people opinions or intention based on physical properties. One of my raid leaders is female, my wvw leader is female, her second is female, why would I even ONCE think about judging their experience and expertise on a subject based on their gender, out of nowhere? Why just why is it even remotely considered an excuse to jump at someone's throat??? - There are people, like you apparently. I'm allowed to disagree. I happen to work in IT and value my company enough not to cause them unnecessary trouble for the sake of expressing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dengar.1785 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 I like how people mention Fox and Breitbart as if anybody with a brain actually treats them as gospel. Hint: If it's a news outlet, you're probably better off being skeptical of everything they say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harper.4173 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Tris Apollumenon.6435" said: > It's extremely upsetting to see how willing Anet was to throw employees to the mob -- not only was there absolutely no move to speak out against the detailed, sexually explicit abuse that the employees received, but the employees in question were _fired_? > > The massive response to this by Gamergaters already underscored the hostility of this environment. The **official statement** from Mike himself, stating that a single unprofessionally snarky Twitter thread expressing frustration at being habitually belittled = "attacking the community", only makes it clear that in Anet's eyes, whatever "the community" means, I don't count. Playtime, enthusiasm, time spent helping new players, money spent on gems and DLCs -- arguments could be made for any of those as factors toward being in a given community, but in this case it seems like the overriding definition is "Community == I want devs to be INSTANTLY FIRED the first time they make a frustrated comment in public or back up their colleagues". > > I was willing to Block And Move On for ages and ages, even as a WvW player having to deal with tons of teamchat trolls and having to do another blockathon every time a new world alliance rolls around. MMO online communities are hard to moderate, and I recognize that. But having this edict come from above, as an official ArenaNet statement from the top guy himself, that's damning. That hurts. > > I know the kitten troll types are all too happy for people like me to get out of their games, but like... games are supposed to be fun. This was my _hobby_, not some kind of activist crusade. I'm too old and tired to stick it out to Make A Statement or Fight The Good Fight when even the top authority is saying "You are not welcome here. Harassers and misogynists, _you_ are welcome." More power to those who are determined or thick-skinned enough to persevere. I don't think I can. It's extremely upsetting to see how willing people are to make new accounts and post only to push an agenda. Still - I will respond to you. Arenet is a company - it runs for profit. It does not run for the sake of its employees - it runs for the sake of its shareholders. It runs for a profit. It does not run to push your (or any) political agenda. Profit doesn't care about sexual abuse, it cares about more profit. Sexual abuse becomes relevant only if somehow it can be worked into the equation in order to gain more profit. That's how companies run and are operated. Like I said before - if your livelihood depends on a crowd of people - you have to keep them happy. If you're frustrated - at least don't show it - or do it under the cover of anonymity. I don't really buy the "habitually belittled" idea - you post an idea in the public space - expect a wide range of responses. And yes - whatever the community means you don't count - because let's be honest here - last week you didn't even have that account. You've never played the game and never will. You're here just for the show. Personally I'd have never asked them to fire the devs. But I'd have stopped paying a company that supported such individuals. The company can make its choice - and it has. This was your hobby but you have ONE post on the forums and it's in this thread? How much have you played? If on the offchance you've played somewhat and do have some stuff - I get the feeling from you're post you're halfway out the door already. Can I have your stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Zedek.8932" said: > I think that at least Peter not from one day to the other unemployed. > I've seen too many similar situations and they all ended surprisingly well (apart from losing a long-time income of course). > > For example, a colleague betrayed the company by taking returns that were not from customers and took the money. > He's been suspended and later of course fired, but he received a good employment reference letter. Why? Because going "Company X ruined Ys life over XX Euros" or such things is even worse PR. > > The other guy yelled at the big boss that automatication takes his job (he's been the goods inward office clerk). > Talking kitten to the big boss he had to leave the company - but receives pay until 01.01.2019. > > Same with our previous dear Mrs. Kaiser. Received further 6 months of pay after being removed. > > I know these are totally random things, but all happend in the last 5 years in my branch alone. > > For Peter at least, it's a bit odd: > For such a long-time employee, at least to German law, you can't simply fire him like that for such a minor thing (and yes, a private Twitter that is barely and only after some research linked to the company is not a reason for any sane court to rule in favour of the employer, at least in Europe). Firing someone (or force him or her into retirement) is getting more and more difficult if you reach 10+ years of employment. I also don't think that Peter's references are not good enough to find a job in the industry. Also, the video game industry as very fast-living. If you look how well id Software did with DooM. Then the people left id, created studio over studio. In LoL, developers come, developers go. Everyone seem to know each other. Also "not with the company anymore" is very vague as well. One former supervisor of me was "not with the company" but ended up in another place (from operative business to some headquarter office job). > > I just can't imagine Mr. O'Brien said: "Clear your desk in 10 minutes" and gets him a literal buttkick. There is more to it. But to keep the mob happy, they have to disguise and keep it as low as possible. aNet and Mr. Fries would not like to start a fire again that is finally dying. > > My two cents with a pint of life experience. > Excelsior. Simple fact is you, me and everyone else not parley to the internals of ANET have no idea what took place after the initial twitterstorm. Yes it is odd that a long term employee is no longer with the company and as I have said previous, I hope JP is proud of that fact. But.. yes any employee can be released from their employment immediately if the company feels there was something compelling enough to do so.. his twitter input, though a bad call on his part, does not seem to me to be the whole reason here, so my guess is something else took place or has taken place previously to warrant ANET taking the decision they did.. or did they make it?? PF, unlike JP is being rather more tight lipped at present and rightly so about this whole sorry story, which also leads me to believe their is more to this story than what we really know. Personally I would like to wish PF and his family well in their future endeavours.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Harper.4173" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > Right now, I can't stop wondering how badly Price and Fries botched the Come to Jesus meeting. > > > > This may come as a surprise to you all, but I've been reprimanded at my jobs before. I know, big shocker. Sometimes my aspergers gets in the way, sometimes it is my innate stubbornness and aggressiveness, sometimes it is because of my political ideals. But, _I've never been fired_ for my mistakes. Whenever an issue comes up, if I don't end up hashing it out with that person without it coming to my bosses, I usually just talk out the situation with my bosses and they readily understand. We come to an agreement, and then things continue on as normal. If my bosses want me to do something or stop doing something, they tell me and then I listen. Now, this is all low level stuff. I've never been in a position of true power, and yet all of my bosses were hesitant to fire me over small disagreements. > > > > So how badly did Price and Fries mess up? There are a lot of ways this could've ended without having the Head of Narrative Development defenestrated. She could've changed her views and apologized. She could've refused to change her views and apologize anyway. She could've explained her situation and apologized. And Fries... he must've messed up pretty bad considering he was tertiary to the whole event. From all of this, I can extrapolate two possible explanations: > > > > (1): There was a pattern of behavior following behind these two people, and the current scandal was the straw that broke the camel's back. Considering their twitter history and their job history, this is a likely outcome. As mah boi Zack (AKA Richard C. Meyers) says, "A person doesn't get fired. They fired themselves. Their actions and behaviors change for the worse long before they actually get fired. They've mentally quit the job before it actually ends." I've seen it happen before, so there's a good chance that Price and Fries were grating on the nerves of everybody at the office for months, and this event just sealed their fate. > > > > (2): They quadrupled down, and went into a full aggro threatening stance over the issue. This one isn't as common, but it does happen. Normally it's called spiraling out of control. When they were called in by HR or Mike or whomever handles this, instead of listening and talking they freaked out, stood firm in their actions, refused to apologize or change, and maybe even threatened Anet directly. This is a less likely scenario, but if this happened it would explain why Fries was fired, too. He had a better standing to resolve this issue with an apology, so it makes more sense that he threw it away in martyrdom instead. > > > > Keep in mind, this is all conjecture via by Occams Razor. It could be that there is further conspiracy about that confounds Occam's Razor, but I can't give serious weight to those ideas. > > The issue here is one of amplitude. I doubt you've taken on the entirety of your customer base. > You mentioned in your post "That person". The difference between your mistakes and these dev's mistakes was scale. You don't fight the community. The community supports and funds the game - they're the lifeblood of the game. You can't turn on it. Even if you dislike them - you suck it up - because their investment of time and resources is what keeps the company you work for afloat. > When you turn on them you force the company to choose between you or the community - that won't be a hard choice. Anet already has a lot of bad blood between it and its community. > > It is true that there were a lot of ways this could have ended without them getting fired - but a lot of them could have cost Anet far more than just letting them go. Would you take that risk? Should you? Changing her views wouldn't have mattered. Once out in the open the damage is done. > It's not like she'll change her mind - even if she says she does. It's not like her apology would have been anything but an excuse to save her position. When you make a firm stand and take a strong stance - expect a strong response. > Considering how often I've seen companies [turn against their customers](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU7p8OzaDjo "https://youtube.com/watch?v=WU7p8OzaDjo"), it isn't as easy a choice as you'd think. Anet has to weigh the costs of getting new employees and the outrage of firing those employees with the outrage of not firing the employees. There's also the ideological stance of the company itself. Chris Ryall of IDW went down in flames for Aubrey Sitterson over his ideals. That was love, man. But anyway, I find a sincere and prompt apology can accomplish quite a bit. An example of this is the feud between Mara Wilson and Doug Walker. Things with JP snowballed because she kept kicking down the hill, over and over and over again. A single mean tweet against a single person wouldn't cause this kind of uproar, and it would be easy to fix. I mean, you could make the case post hoc that she is the kind of person who could never make a sincere apology, but all that nonsense had to go down first. By sincere apology, I mean she would have to do more than just say "I'm sorry". She'd have to pay tribute of some kind, Maybe guest star in one of Deroirs videos and not in a back-handed passive-aggressive way. But if she did this, all of the outrage would've quelled, and you would only have the more unforgiving and extreme elements still hounding Anet. So yes, I would make the case that an apology could've fixed all of this. At least, before the part where she doubled down several times (quintuple downed?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Tris Apollumenon.6435" said: > It's extremely upsetting to see how willing Anet was to throw employees to the mob -- not only was there absolutely no move to speak out against the detailed, sexually explicit abuse that the employees received, but the employees in question were _fired_? > > The massive response to this by Gamergaters already underscored the hostility of this environment. The **official statement** from Mike himself, stating that a single unprofessionally snarky Twitter thread expressing frustration at being habitually belittled = "attacking the community", only makes it clear that in Anet's eyes, whatever "the community" means, I don't count. Playtime, enthusiasm, time spent helping new players, money spent on gems and DLCs -- arguments could be made for any of those as factors toward being in a given community, but in this case it seems like the overriding definition is "Community == I want devs to be INSTANTLY FIRED the first time they make a frustrated comment in public or back up their colleagues". > > I was willing to Block And Move On for ages and ages, even as a WvW player having to deal with tons of teamchat trolls and having to do another blockathon every time a new world alliance rolls around. MMO online communities are hard to moderate, and I recognize that. But having this edict come from above, as an official ArenaNet statement from the top guy himself, that's damning. That hurts. > > I know the kitten troll types are all too happy for people like me to get out of their games, but like... games are supposed to be fun. This was my _hobby_, not some kind of activist crusade. I'm too old and tired to stick it out to Make A Statement or Fight The Good Fight when even the top authority is saying "You are not welcome here. Harassers and misogynists, _you_ are welcome." More power to those who are determined or thick-skinned enough to persevere. I don't think I can. So much misinformation here it's painful. - Sexually explicit abuse: Please spend 1 minute looking at the actual tweets. - that a single unprofessionally snarky Twitter thread expressing frustration: Not a single twitter threat, not just expressing frustrating but actually expressing sexism, racism, death celebration. Please actually take the time to look for the source of what you're commenting. - WvW player having to deal with tons of teamchat trolls and having to do another blockathon: Yeah there's a lot of that, from all genders to all genders. There's toxic people in pvp also, what does it have to do with anything? - "You are not welcome here. Harassers and misogynists, _you_ are welcome." Welcome to being part of the problem. Someone gets fired, the company promotes misogyny and harassment. Double standards are amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apostatecd.6139 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Harper.4173" said: > I don't really buy the "habitually belittled" idea - you post an idea in the public space - expect a wide range of responses. You seem like an okay guy, but having worked in that kind of field, there is a huge difference in tone and pervasive dismissal of my female colleagues that happens that I just notice I don't personally run into. Straight up, the only time I found some of my proposals as a game dev type attacked in a really over the top manner was when someone thought one of my female colleagues proposed it, when it was my work. Anyways, I hope everyone playing gw2 continues to have fun and all, but I just can't in good conscience keep doing so after this so I'm going to move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thruine.8510 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 Whether you agree with her firing or not and while Reddit (I'm about done with that place) may have played a role in that firing, JP lost her job because of her tweets. That's clear. If you want to a cause to get behind, Peter Fries is the one who seems wrong to me. They should have swallowed hard and accepted what was coming by firing an outspoken female developer and done so. Then created an internet policy and made sure Peter understood it. You can still have your alt-right marches (man fired due to SJW) and feminism fiestas (man loses job defending feminism). But get behind the right horse. And pray JP gets some help. I'm done with this place for the day... sheesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Kenshader.1253 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Dengar.1785" said: > I like how people mention Fox and Breitbart as if anybody with a brain actually treats them as gospel. > > Hint: If it's a news outlet, you're probably better off being skeptical of everything they say. > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said: > > > > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > > > > @"CETheLucid.3964" said: > > > > > > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > > > > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > > > > Personally I'm still in disbelief that this has happened. Mostly because I've seen the opposite happen about a dozen times. Normally, when confronted about this behavior, they double down and the company they're a part of backs them fully. It is what happened with the comic book industry. It is what happened with journalism. It is what happened with most independent forums that I used to visit. It is what happened to most television shows I used to watch. It is what happened to Magic: The Gathering. It is what happened to countless videogame studios. It is what happened to social sciences. It is what happened to Canada. What do you mean "Canada isn't an industry"? Maple Syrup is a thing! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, the point being that way too many businesses put complete faith into far-left extremism, and it goes horribly. The businesses assume that all of these people preaching about microaggressions and the patriarchy know what they're talking about, and that everyone disagreeing with the message is proof of the message. GW2 appeared to be right on that track, with Arenanet being "An ideals driven company" and all that. I expected GW2 to give in and Get Woke, Go Broke eventually. When I said that the next LWS4 update would have Tiami go into a diatribe about mansplaining, I was serious. But when Mike dropped the hammer on JP hard, it restored my faith in the company. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The sad part is, I don't think JP is going to learn from this. "kitten always double down" is a phrase for a reason. She'll get snatched up by another game developer that values her stances, and she'll continue man-hating and mass blocking for eternity. Because the moral of this story can't possibly be "treat customers well," "not all adversity is sexism," "branching dialogue is a good thing," or "misandry is bad, too." The moral is "There's a massive conspiracy of alt-right extremist men secretly in control of the gaming industry, and we need to prune our customer base and refuse to serve them." How could it be anything else? But hey, I've been wrong before. > > > > > > > > > > > > So when companies put complete faith into far-right extremism, it's alright, but when it's far-left it's a no-no. Thanks for being transparent showing us why the gaming industry is forever effed. > > > > > > > > > > In what timeline can you reasonably connect Anet to far right extremism? Don't you think you're being just a _tad_ disingenuous with this narrative? > > > > > > > > Funny. I never said Anet in connection to far-right extremism. I said companies in general. But the fact that people are more worried about far-left extremism in general then, well, extremism period, really shows how screwed the gaming industry is. > > > > > > I'm worried about all extremism. What's new with "this" extremism is to constantly claim having the higher grounds while in reality promoting double standard everywhere in their narrative. You've seen it a lot in this thread, even more in journal medias. It does not matter what this content creator was thinking or whether he was just giving feedback or anything, what matters is how the "victim" side FELT about it. > > > And that is extremely dangerous. It's fantasy before reality, guilty until proven innocent. > > > > > > At the end of the day you could summarize it this way: A non-radical person would have either answered in a neutral manner if they thought the feedback was appropriate, or dismissed it/delete it if they thought it was. If said person was in a period of burn out, they would have said something snarky, and then apologized later after realizing it was wrong to say that from a HUMAN BEING to a HUMAN BEING. > > > This is gender-less. > > > A radical feminist will add gender to all of that, and instead of just realizing they were rude, will fantasize about the intent behind something rather than the content itself, and from now on will use it as a justification to their behavior, claiming that their "rude" behavior somewhat explains their rude response. > > > I don't exactly see a difference between the extremes here. All extremes are basically indulging in some form of discrimination based on a physical property that one individual cannot change. The "far left" is just more sneaky at it (without realizing it maybe?), while getting the support of medias. > > > > > > And we get non sense like "the gw2 community being full of alt rights" or "star wars people who didn't like the latest movies are alt-right sexists" and whatever. > > > This is the danger right there, shortcuts of reality that no longer bother in fact checking anything, but instead will assume everyone going against a person with higher moral high grounds is necessarily evil from the other extreme side. > > > > > > Ask yourself, how many people here have leaned to the right because of incidents like this? How many people are associating actual feminist movements for women rights to this? How many women here are supportive of ArenaNet while this dev is pretending to speak in the name of them all? > > > > Again, this basically looks like it's okay when right-wing extremists do this stuff (and yes, they have claimed higher grounds while in reality promoting double standards everywhere in their narrative), but when left-wing extremists do it, suddenly it's trouble and we have to stop it. I mean good lord this is basically what I am talking about. > > > > I mean replace "Feminists" with Extremists MRA's who add gender to all of that, and you get the same thing. And also, the far-right is getting their support from the media as well if were going that route. Fox, Breitbart, every-right wing outlet is guilty of it. > > > > So let me ask you this in return. How many people have leaned to the left because of incidents like this? How many people are associating actual Men's rights movements who are trying to highlight legitimate issues to this? How many men think that JP and especially PF were thrown under the bus while the 'community' champions this as ArenaNet standing up for the consumer? > > No, it doesn't "basically look like it's ok when right wing extremists". It's a false equivalence. I don't know how you could get that from my message. You're demonstrating the point I was making that if you don't agree with what extreme left say, you're automatically siding with extreme right... > the very FIRST thing I said is "I'm worried about all extremism". > > The current problem has to do with extreme left. So of course we're talking about that. There's still a majority of people "between" extreme left and extreme right in the society and they can't just be tagged as alt right whenever convenient. If there's any trace of extreme right in this forum I would love to see it. I'm sure reddit have some, but again conveniently extracting them and quoting them in an article is dishonest at best, it absolutely doesn't reflect this community by any mean, just like a radical feminist doesn't reflect the feminist movement (thankfully...) > > So unlike you i'll actually answer: > - Nobody not already in any extreme would lean more toward an extreme resulting to this, as this was a clear example of extreme exploding on a person just stating an opinion under sexist pretension. If anything, that video showing the guy praising the dev a few days before it happens makes it crystal clear what his intentions were (and more importantly, were not... since it's a guilty until proven innocent now...). So many good things can come out of progressivism, but something like that personally make me want to say : PAUSE, let's rollback a little and make sure we haven't messed up somewhere. > - I had to google what that "men's right movement" was. I didn't even know it was a thing. But there again, please read the posts of this thread, the huge majority of us are pro-feminism and want absolute equal opportunity in just about every aspect of life. But "equal opportunity" doesn't mean anyone has to put up with attempts to turn things around and dismiss people opinions or intention based on physical properties. One of my raid leaders is female, my wvw leader is female, her second is female, why would I even ONCE think about judging their experience and expertise on a subject based on their gender, out of nowhere? Why just why is it even remotely considered an excuse to jump at someone's throat??? > - There are people, like you apparently. I'm allowed to disagree. I happen to work in IT and value my company enough not to cause them unnecessary trouble for the sake of expressing I didn't answer those questions because in the grand scheme of things they are meaningless, but I will answer them. "Ask yourself, how many people here have leaned to the right because of incidents like this?" Same as the amount of people moving to the left because of incidents like this, 25%. The other 25% would move to the right, while 50% just doesn't give a flack because it doesn't concern them in the slightest. " How many people are associating actual feminist movements for women rights to this?" A lot, in the same reason as to why people associate actual MRA's with the likes of pick-up artists and misogynists who frequent red-pill forums: All it takes is a few extremists to basically taint an entire cause because people who are already pre-disposed to oppose those movements will cite the few bad apples as reasons as to why the entire movement is garbage. "How many women here are supportive of ArenaNet while this dev is pretending to speak in the name of them all?" A lot? Because humans are diverse in ideology? If you want a more concrete number, that I can't give because I don't know the amount of women who play GW2 on a regular basis, but if you want me to guess, it's basically the same with question 1. I go with 25/25/50 because I am that jaded and cynical with humanity and how it deals with debates and political stuff. People are more divisive then ever and it's a game of us vs them. This is why when I make posts on controversial topics like this, I don't really try to convince other folks on my words. I just say my thoughts and that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shayne Hawke.9160 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 So, is it safe to talk politics? Because I'm going to talk some politics. I have looked over many tweets surrounding this issue, and by far, the most shocking thing was the perception by Jessica that criticism of her viewpoint was gendered. I couldn't read that out of Deroir's tweets, nor could I read any kind of snark or subtle jab of a personal nature. Maybe I'm not familiar enough with Deroir's other work as a YouTuber. But, this perception (and escalation) by Jessica brought such issues into discussion that it made the situation untenable. Jessica does not strike me as the kind of person who has a good understanding of the modern internet, or is perhaps so arrogant that she does not care. There are many other ways this kind of criticism or feedback could have been addressed, easiest among them to simply ignore it. Perhaps that's cold, and there should be (and is) encouragement for devs to communicate with the player base, but GW2 is a big game, and there's only so much time in a day. Blowing off one more person's response is not going to be a big deal. Even several different impulsive responses would not have caused the kind of stir as the one that had been chosen. Even the "thanks for explaining to me how I do my job" tweet alone would have been nothing for anyone to be riled up about. Bringing gender into the equation was a misstep. However, that along with Peter's tweet about the difference in his actions or statements depending on whether he is choosing to be unprofessional or professional is an indicator of something more worrisome underneath. Jessica and Peter are likely to have certain political viewpoints that caused them to react to this situation in the way that they did. Their arrogance, ineptitude, or relaxation in this instance shows a viewpoint that, despite O'Brien stating is not representative of ANet (which I agree enough with), says something about where the game is going in development. Politics and values manifest in game design. Anybody who doesn't think this is the case hasn't experienced or seen or heard enough about Living Story Season 1, or hasn't compared some overall differences in design between GW and GW2 and related those differences to the different values they promote (for more on this, read up about how r/K theory applies to modern politics, and then think about how it applies to game design). This event is one more instance of a political viewpoint or set of values that I disagree with being found in unprofessional men and women close to the game's development. The politics of the people who make the games I play used to not matter, but neither I nor the industry's climate are the same as they were ten years ago. Jessica and Peter are almost certainly not the only people at ANet who hold the views they do. They simply were the two who chose to react and be involved in the way they were in this event. It's hard for me to say that I am pleased with the firing of Jessica or Peter. My response to such comments being made by either person is practically nothing, as I am not surprised by such remarks or reactions coming out of employees of ANet, and I have long ago done exactly what I would do if I figured those ideas were common at the top - I stopped playing GW2, mostly. I haven't bought any of the expansions, haven't bought any gems, and haven't even used the currency exchange to help boost the value of gems and encourage others to buy them. I chose this course of action a long time ago though in response to the game itself taking a direction I was not pleased with. This was all after being a very faithful veteran of GW and eager player of GW2. Even setting all politics aside, I wouldn't be interested in buying into GW2 due to several facets of gameplay not meeting my standards. Actions taken by O'Brien in this instance are positive to me in the sense that it removes two persons whose politics perhaps seeped into design in ways that do not please me, but those design decisions are not erased or reverted in any way, and there are indeed many others who work at ANet who perhaps have similar views causing similar choices in design. I am in no mood to conduct or call for a witch hunt for these views among ANet staff. I simply make my own independent choice to not play on account of those views. It is likely that such a response by others who do actively play GW2, who do actually compose GW2's current player base and are paying customers, is exactly the kind of thing that O'Brien seeks to avoid en masse. Unfortunately for him, whether the decision would have been to stand with Jessica and Peter or to fire them, large groups of people will not be pleased. I trust O'Brien's sincerity in this instance for the reasons he provides for letting those two go, and even though it's not enough to win me back as a regular player or customer, I think that the standard of conduct O'Brien is standing for is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"inubasiri.8745" said: > > @"DiabolicalHamSandwich.8756" said: > > > @"inubasiri.8745" said: > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > @"inubasiri.8745" said: > > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > > > @"inubasiri.8745" said: > > > > > > > > @"Loli Ruri.8307" said: > > > > > > > > > @"inubasiri.8745" said: > > > > > > > > > Congratulations, some of you have just had 2 actual people fired. I hope it was worth being offended on the internet. Sick age we're living in. > > > > > > > > She was offended too. So was he. Because accountability is a sick age we live in. Amazing right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah well if everyone was accountable for making others offended on the internet, we'd all be in jail now. But I guess in this case only the devs got the short straw. As I said, congratulations people (you know who you are), your outcry was heard by the mighty Mo, you don't need to be offended anymore. > > > > > > Don't worry, the UK is working on that. lol > > > > > > > > > > Great so now you agree with me? > > > > It's not a good idea for law to be punishing people based upon feelings. Because the law should be objective, not subjective. However in this case, we can look at objective and see clearly what was wrong. > > > > > > But that's precisely the point. Was what they did illegal? If not why are they getting fired for it? Because it hurt someone's feelings which is why they made a reddit thread about it and other people went there and agreed with it. You have to self-censor yourself if you want to keep your job, then? > > > > Illegal? I understand who you are replying to, and what they said, but the situation still had nothing to do with actual law. They were employees acting like kitten. More so Price since from what I saw of the other guy, crap was tame. I don't know if you know how businesses work, but normally you don't want employees attacking your fans/customers unprovoked. Also censor yourself? no. Just don't act like an kitten for no reason in this case. Unless the person is naturally an kitten, then yes, self-censor. > > Yeah but they weren't acting as employees. Remember those were their personal accounts. My point isn't that she wasn't acting noxious, my point is that it should have no bearing on her employment. And also if someone didn't put it on reddit, most people wouldn't be offended by it because they wouldn't have known about it. Because what is said between individuals should sometimes just stay between individuals. No.. sorry your incorrect imo. When someone openly advertises their workplace publicly and then puts out material that is absolutely work related then by their own choice they are putting themselves and the company into the public eye.. by offering out her pro tip AMA she decided, no one else, to put herself on the clock.. what ensued was a lack of professionalism and an abhorrent attack on a respectful community member, a content partner and a person who less than 24hrs previous was calling this person a God, someone he admired for her work. Simple fact is she let both herself down and the company in the way she acted and the things she decided to accuse the poster and similarly ANET of.. and continues to do so reading some of here journo interviews.. which hopefully no one in their right mind would take seriously knowing her history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"apostatecd.6139" said: > > @"Harper.4173" said: > > I don't really buy the "habitually belittled" idea - you post an idea in the public space - expect a wide range of responses. > > You seem like an okay guy, but having worked in that kind of field, there is a huge difference in tone and pervasive dismissal of my female colleagues that happens that I just notice I don't personally run into. Straight up, the only time I found some of my proposals as a game dev type attacked in a really over the top manner was when someone thought one of my female colleagues proposed it, when it was my work. Anyways, I hope everyone playing gw2 continues to have fun and all, but I just can't in good conscience keep doing so after this so I'm going to move on. > My opinions were dismissed a ton of times by my (female) project lead on one of my project. So what? Should I now assume she did it cause I was a guy?.. or maybe just cause I had less experience than her? Maybe your said colleague just trusted you more than that other employee, regardless of her gender? Or maybe it was actual bias against gender? Who knows! But why constantly assuming the worst? How can you know with absolute certainty that it was indeed gender bias? Even more how can you know that in this case, which we're all unfamiliar about, but we have actual proof that the guy in question was a fan of her work? How can that even come close to justifying an action done from someone representing a company to a wip consumer? How can someone working in the same field not understand that it's not how you treat consumers, ever? You're free of course to stop playing the game because of a private experience, but a private experience does not make a generality. It's a nice shortcut for whoever see the world in black and white though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrizzFreston.5290 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > But anyway, I find a sincere and prompt apology can accomplish quite a bit. An example of this is the feud between Mara Wilson and Doug Walker. Things with JP snowballed because she kept kicking down the hill, over and over and over again. A single mean tweet against a single person wouldn't cause this kind of uproar, and it would be easy to fix. I mean, you could make the case post hoc that she is the kind of person who could never make a sincere apology, but all that nonsense had to go down first. > > By sincere apology, I mean she would have to do more than just say "I'm sorry". She'd have to pay tribute of some kind, Maybe guest star in one of Deroirs videos and not in a back-handed passive-aggressive way. But if she did this, all of the outrage would've quelled, and you would only have the more unforgiving and extreme elements still hounding Anet. So yes, I would make the case that an apology could've fixed all of this. At least, before the part where she doubled down several times (quintuple downed?). I think, even now an apology or even just a more levelheaded response would be valuable. Although, it would be totally out of character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Felipe.1807" said: > > @"Feothyr.6072" said: > > Mike, please stop throwing talent away, just because some kids on the internet feel kitten. > > > > I'd like to suggest everyone turn their internet devices off, go outside and catch a bit of fresh air, maybe get some ice cream or a beer. Weather's nice. > > Yes Mike, come on, the game devs should be disrespectful to their customers as much as they want, and shouldnt had to face any consequenseces for their actions....sometimes I wonder how old some people here are, if they actually ever had a job or know how the world works... I think it's plain to see she went well beyond the realm of disrespectful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CedarDog.9723 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 Hopefully this incident will teach random devs at ANet and other companies that you should not talk about work on social media. Devs should also not interact with people they don't know, i.e. random schmucks who play the games they work on. Any questions aimed at them should go ignored. Or better yet, don't have any social media presence. That would be the safest (i.e. not tempted to get annoyed and say something that makes people diarrhea all over the place) and most satisfying outcome of this lesson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiabolicalHamSandwich.8756 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > @"Julischka Bean.7491" said: > > > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > > > > @"TheNecrosanct.4028" said: > > > > I am wondering whether all the people who find JP's firing an overreaction have actually built up careers. A simple Google search on "fired because of social media" gives you a slew of examples. People fired because of inappropriate posts, racist posts, misplaced jokes, posts unrelated to their work on social media accounts and on accounts not tied to their employer. This really is not a strange or outrageous phenomenon, but an obvious one for any of us who have careers. Of course, when you display your employment on your account and post your official work there as well, the connection is a no-brainer, as are the consequences for negative and socially unacceptable behavior, and even beliefs. > > > > > > > > Claims of "having the right to sue for wrongful termination" in the case of PF I also don't understand. What do these people know of the internal goings on at ANet's office that the rest of us don't? How are they privvy to this non-public information? How do they know all the steps taken? How do they know ANet hasn't offered both of them to make an apology, and how do they know how either JP or PF responded? If you also don't understand the dangerous legal position ANet would place themselves in if they had fired only JP and not PF, in a case where sexism was used in an accusatory fashion, you are not as knowledgeable about these topics as you think you are. JP legally can't use the sexism card against her former employer anymore, because they fired both a man and a woman over this incident. She can claim it in the media, but legally she doesn't have a foot to stand on with that argument. > > > > > > > > Just stop making claims based on assumptions, for which you need information none of us are privvy to because we don't work at ANet. We don't know all the details, we don't have copies of any internal documentation regarding this case, we don't have copies of ANet's contract of employment, we don't know what legal counsel they have received (though people with a legal background, especially in employment, would know these things). Yet people still make claims that can only be made by actually having all this information. And I'm pretty sure they don't have it, any of it. > > > > > > > > Claims about an alt-right mob are even more ludicrous, if people had even done their homework. Before MO made his announcement, there was very little alt-right trolling, mob mentality or baying going on. It may have increased after his announcement, but it's typical alt-right behavior to spot a situation they can benefit from and jump in and make claims about it, or even appropriate it. Lumping all reasonable and well thought out responses taking a stand against JP's behavior together with the baying trolls is doing a disservice, it's dumb and incredibly transparent. By putting the emphasis on that you're giving them more power than they have. They're trying to incite the mob mentality where there is none and to a certain extent their tactic has worked. Let's not give them the satisfaction and give them more power and influence. JP's behavoir against a customer and official partner to ANet is unacceptable, PF publicly taking a stand with her was a mistake on his part, and public opinion is very much a factor, whether we like it or not. Without the public, most companies do not survive. Without the public, most of us wouldn't have a job. So their perception is important and should always be considered from a business point of view. It's easy to make this personal, or even ideological, while at its core it's just business and public image. Social media is not private and if you actively espouse your employer and talk about your work on such a platform, it's neither private nor personal. It is the weakest excuse in this situation, and both JP and PF know this, whether they want to admit it or not. I really don't believe either of them would be this naïve. > > > > > > > > Edit: grammar > > > > > > The problem is the hypocrisy. After all the folks who cheered that JP was fired are also the same people who cried and protested when Subnautica fired one of their developers for stupid stuff he said on his own twitter post. No matter how one slices it, it's an alt-right mob. > > > > I know nothing about Subnautica. Jessica did not say just stupid stuff, she was meaner than a rattlesnake...and toward her company's customers. alt-right..,sheesh. > > > > I saw the twitter thread, and honestly, both sides were acting like dummies (I wanna say something meaner, but alas, forum rules). Deroir was pretty much acting condescending and douchey. Deroir was condescending and douchey? in what universe do you hail from in where what he said was any of that? Or are there extra comments I am unaware of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 > @"Ace Kenshader.1253" said: > A lot? Because humans are diverse in ideology? If you want a more concrete number, that I can't give because I don't know the amount of women who play GW2 on a regular basis, but if you want me to guess, it's basically the same with question 1. Exactly. Glad to know that it's common sense to both of us. Now it'd be great to pass the words to all these news medias denouncing an "attack on women", as if all representatives of one gender necessarily agree that it's the case here. It's really, really sad. Because at this point I don't think anyone still believes that the guy is at fault. She could just have come clean to these medias with something like "I did overreact. I'm so tired of hearing people telling me how to do my job that I assumed too quickly and was wrong". I am absolutely confident that the whole community would have empathized. It's a burn out, everyone can have them, and every one can be wrong, that doesn't mean you've never suffered from it. And you do see women, men and companies apologizing when it becomes clear they were in the wrong, this is again gender-less. But no, the doubling down on no taking any responsibility for it... like you can't sugarcoat that by calling out the extreme right, enough with the wild cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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