Riddle Me This..

[Vayne.8563]

Guild Wars 2 is the only MMO designed around the open world. Raids were, and remain, an afterthought here. Niche content for a niche market. If you're a guy like me who loves open world stuff, there really aren't very many options.

 

It's not on rails when you level. The large open world meta events are lots of fun. And there's always collections to go for that takes you back to earlier zones.

 

People who say PoF is dead, for example,. are not spending time in PoF. It's not even close to dead. It is,. however, not zerged. It's casual open world content designed for casual players, essentially the anti-HOT. Where HOT is designed around giant meta events, POF has tons of stuff spread out. But I also see tons of people when I'm running around POF, just in smaller groups.

 

This game is fantastic for open world content and that's where it really shines. After playing this game, it's hard to level in most games with quest hubs, even games with Fates like FFXIV didn't do it for me.

[Dreamy Lu.3865]

What would draw me in are the same things that keep me in after years of playing the game:

- The big amount of different activities allowing each player to do what suits him/her the best and ignore the rest.

- The world, huge, regularly extended, with so many different landscapes, climates, skies, big towns, .... I believe that most players are so used to wander around that they forget to see how rich the game is on that side.

- The characters we create, allowing for detailed customization.

- The fact that even if the main game content is about fighting, there is a little content that are puzzles and activities else than fighting.

 

Globally, this game allows for all types of players to pick up what he/she needs out of it. The amount of different approaches (regular, dashing, picking, doing all, and so on...) to the game is - on my opinion - incredible. And don't misunderstand me. Like almost everyone probably, there are things I dislike and would like to see changing, but it does not impact my global opinion: I find this game "rich" at all levels. :)

[Mea.5491]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> I added to the table, it has outstanding Aesthetics and Sound Design, Constant updates, and Deep story.

> They responded with "So does Final Fantasy XIV", and "but that's sub based" didn't really work.

 

I played FFXIV on a trial account, almost fell asleep during the combat. That global cooldown system is horrible. Also, I only tried low-mid lvl quests but most of them were **not even voiced** and my character was just there nodding like a robot. I expected more from a game that forces me to pay a monthly fee. I don't really understand why would anyone pick that game over GW2 but oh well, people are different. Also, raiders are generally unfriendly in every MMO, not only GW2.

[phs.6089]

> @"Riku.4821" said:

 

> When I was still playing in the Raid scene in gw2. It felt like a very Elitist/Min-Max unfriendly Community.

> Dungeons were still dead, Fractals seemed to be improving

 

That didn't change.

 

But hey, I don't have to do dungeons/raids to gear up in GW2.

[Yargesh.4965]

One thing I would add that has not been mentioned yet is the ability to sell just about anything at any time. You don't need to go to a specific town at a specific time. You can see at a glance the best price for the entire game if other players can buy your item. You don't need to deal with sell spam., you don't need to create sell spam. Portable merchants have been in the game since launch and you can sell junk or items taking up space easily, items introduced since launch allow you to even more conveniently sell junk et. al. Will never given the option go back to a game that has player stalls and timed auction instead of high/low sell/buy again.

[Danikat.8537]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Danikat.8537" said:

> > In brief what I like about GW2 is that it's a very casual friendly game.

>

> Just no, no, no!

>

> People constantly mistake easy for casual friendly. Considering the difficulty of open-world and story content, performance (meaning reasonable gear, build and gameplay) doesn't really matter (although ArenaNet did raise the difficulty in the latest story-episodes). That design choice bites back hard in content where performance does matter (WvW, PvP, raids and fractals), up to the point where a reasonable level of accessiblity just isn't given (that's mostly raids and fractal CMs). Getting into that content is a lot more hardcore than in traditional MMORPGs (there is a reason why there are high LI/KP-requirements).

>

> That's only made worse by other design-decisions, meaning the lack of a gear-treadmill (content doesn't necessarily become noticeable easier the older it gets), various design-decisions which make the game rather unsociable (you could even argue that the game is asocial due to its strong focus on the single-player-experience - it's hard to get to know people, finding a static, etc. - and even if you have friends: if they already have a static, they probably won't raid/do fractal CMs with you due to the suboptimal reward-systems) and the crazy class-unbalance (people can't necessarily play the class they have fun with, but the class that's currently "flavor of the patch").

 

Did you actually read anything other than that one sentence before replying? I didn't say anything about how easy or hard the game is, and for exactly this reason - I was talking about it being casual friendly and those two are not the same.

 

And like I already said in my previous post it doesn't matter to casual players how hard the hardest content in the game is because **they don't need to do it.** I'm not going to explain it again because if you didn't read the first post I assume you won't read the second one either, but seriously, if you're going to disagree with someone you should find out what they're actually saying first.

 

Also its not like someone is going to finish their Personal Story or even map completion and then jump straight into doing Fractal CMs. If they want to start doing Fractals they're most likely going to start at the low levels and work their way up, so they'll either learn what to do and get the necessary ascended equipment and agony resistance along the way, or they'll get bored/stuck and go do something else. Same with raids. My guilds are constantly urging people to start raiding with them, but even then it's "You should come raid with us! You can find the build and equipment you'll need on the Discord server and while you're getting it you could join the training runs on week nights to learn the mechanics."

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Danikat.8537" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"Danikat.8537" said:

> > > In brief what I like about GW2 is that it's a very casual friendly game.

> >

> > Just no, no, no!

> >

> > People constantly mistake easy for casual friendly. Considering the difficulty of open-world and story content, performance (meaning reasonable gear, build and gameplay) doesn't really matter (although ArenaNet did raise the difficulty in the latest story-episodes). That design choice bites back hard in content where performance does matter (WvW, PvP, raids and fractals), up to the point where a reasonable level of accessiblity just isn't given (that's mostly raids and fractal CMs). Getting into that content is a lot more hardcore than in traditional MMORPGs (there is a reason why there are high LI/KP-requirements).

> >

> > That's only made worse by other design-decisions, meaning the lack of a gear-treadmill (content doesn't necessarily become noticeable easier the older it gets), various design-decisions which make the game rather unsociable (you could even argue that the game is asocial due to its strong focus on the single-player-experience - it's hard to get to know people, finding a static, etc. - and even if you have friends: if they already have a static, they probably won't raid/do fractal CMs with you due to the suboptimal reward-systems) and the crazy class-unbalance (people can't necessarily play the class they have fun with, but the class that's currently "flavor of the patch").

>

> Did you actually read anything other than that one sentence before replying? I didn't say anything about how easy or hard the game is, and for exactly this reason - I was talking about it being casual friendly and those two are not the same.

>

> And like I already said in my previous post it doesn't matter to casual players how hard the hardest content in the game is because **they don't need to do it.** I'm not going to explain it again because if you didn't read the first post I assume you won't read the second one either, but seriously, if you're going to disagree with someone you should find out what they're actually saying first.

>

> Also its not like someone is going to finish their Personal Story or even map completion and then jump straight into doing Fractal CMs. If they want to start doing Fractals they're most likely going to start at the low levels and work their way up, so they'll either learn what to do and get the necessary ascended equipment and agony resistance along the way, or they'll get bored/stuck and go do something else. Same with raids. My guilds are constantly urging people to start raiding with them, but even then it's "You should come raid with us! You can find the build and equipment you'll need on the Discord server and while you're getting it you could join the training runs on week nights to learn the mechanics."

 

I've read your entire post. I'm sorry that shortening the quote offended you, I shortened it to what I think is the relevant point though. You're right that this game is focused on open-world- and story-content, but that content won't necessarily keep people motivated to have GW2 as their Main-MMORPG. Open-world-content has become increasingly boring and the latest maps are quite lacklustre. While there certainly are maps and events that are able to keep people invested (mostly HoT and events like TT), many maps are simply redundant and lacking in several aspects. While GW2 was quite innovative upon release, it fails to deliver entertaining gameplay in open-world-content now. PoF is quite lacking and the S4-maps are quite boring too. Istan is a mindless zergfest and the other maps just serve as additional AP to a majority of the playerbase.

 

GW2 needs more sophisticated content like raids, fractals and decent WvW/PvP to keep people entertained and that sophisticated content is certainly not casual-friendly due to the reasons I've already mentioned. Of course you can argue that people don't have to do more sophisticated content, but what then remains for them? Just legendary weapon-crafting as longterm-motivation isn't sufficient to keep people around. Sure, the entry to fractals is quite well handled through its tiered system, nonetheless, at a certain point, people will reach an almost insurmountable wall due to the reasons I've already mentioned and that's even more true for raids.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Riku.4821" said:

> > @"Vavume.8065" said:

> > > @"Riku.4821" said:

> >

> > > When I was still playing in the Raid scene in gw2. It felt like a very Elitist/Min-Max unfriendly Community.

> >

> > It is, which is one of the reason's I don't touch it.

> >

>

> That's a shame, so its still prevalent?

Yes, pretty much so. And it will remain that way in the foreseeable future, because the difficulty difference between raids and other types of content (with the noticeable difference of fractal challenge modes, which, incidentally, suffer from the same problem) is just too great.

 

> @"Riku.4821" said:

> I remember trying to get groups, and if you didn't know every little detail, or messed up once. You got kicked or everyone left. And then you take another hour to find a group lol.

When that one less experienced person can stand between them and succesfully finishing a raid run, people tend to get more toxic. And it's not even tied to the skill level of said person - less skilled player groups will have even greater requirements for the remaining people, because whose will also need to cover up their own lack of skill.

 

So, unless some major changes will happen gameside, that attitude is going to remain.

 

Open world however is completely different. Far less pressure results in people being far more friendly to each other.

[Riku.4821]

So a post brings up a valid point, I think it was the point I brought up in my talk with friends that was the nail in the coffin for the discussion.

 

**"You're right that this game is focused on open-world- and story-content, but that content won't necessarily keep people motivated to have GW2 as their Main-MMORPG. "**

 

While a lot of you mentioned Open-world content being fun and appealing. There is only so many times I can save a farm from burning down, saving a town from Centaurs, or kill a giant dragon face before you get bored. Especially when the rewards screen is something you can almost systematically guess before you open it.

 

I myself, have all classes to 80 with full specializations maxed out, and then when bored I leveled another character per class to 80 (not necessarily all from Tomes of Knowledge, but I did have 21 level 80s. Which I deleted most of in the long run). I am not an Achievement hunter (neither are my friends), the crafting system really isn't something that feels existent in the game. The items sell for next to nothing, and its cheaper to buy than make in most cases I've seen, pre-POF. I've done map complete about 3 or 4 times now, crafted 3 legendaries. So while I do enjoy the game, and try to get friends to play it. I can't really promise it has a sea of content to do. Unless you're brand new and going to do all the story steps. Then you've got some content to go through.

 

And I think this direction of our discussion is what was the final nail in the coffin for my friends. The lack of actual Character Progression. What point would you have to do an event, if the rewards are nothing to note, the EXP gives you nothing, and you can earn money easier, and more abundantly from doing something else.

 

That **is** something I will give credit to Black Desert Online for. If you ever got bored of the PVE content (and weren't a PvPer) there was a lot of Lifeskills you can do, or exploring to do. While guild wars offers exploration. You can't do lifeskills (fishing, farming, wood cutting etc). And truth be told; that was my favorite part of Runescape back in the days of 2007, or so, as well. Sitting in the Fishing guild, and just text-singing "We didn't start the fire" while fishing for Lobster and Shark or what have you (haha!).

 

But reading the posts here, its bittersweet for me. Seeing the people who fully enjoy the "little things" so much. Something I can only occasionally enjoy. I've played since beta, and then when I was getting burnt out, bit after HOT release, I was "forced" to still play with my partner at the time, for like half a year or more, while burnt out. So by the time we broke up I was having super burn out. I would definitely say being able to pick up and play at a moments notice and not feel like you're behind is such a nice feeling and it a big score for GW2. If in BDO for example you stop playing for a week, so many people will have a huge PVP advantage over you, heck even if you stopped for a weekend.

 

Keep the discussion going though. The responses are pleasant to read. ^^

 

[Yamazuki.6073]

GW2's main appeal is casual friendly. Other games you replace your gear on a cycle, when it comes to GW2 if you get Ascended armor it stays relevant the entire time, and swapping stats on them doesn't cost much. This could also be a drawback, as the game lacks any traditional goals unless you enjoy collecting/doing achievements.

[zengara.8301]

Fighting and simply just walking is Geniunly smoother than most MMO, if not all.

WvW - Big scale fighting that is TRULY unique to the game, no other games have this, and it was set in motion by the gamers instead of the devs.

 

I might be very wrong here, but it seems to me you like "grinding". What made me get into Gw2 was 3 essential things,

 

You can enter the world, play w/e you want without waiting:

-This has changed, now the most essential "end-game modes" are somewhat needed to be waited for, around 10-30 minutes before you can actually play (Raids, WvW)

 

The world is alive:

-This has generally not changed, but since this game is kinda old, it does feel less like everyone is talking to eachother, and more like 2 npc´s programmed to talk to eachother

 

No grind

-This is probably the most important part for me, that I dont have to kill the same mob over and over to reach to the same state as everyone else is quiet important.

[Warkind.6745]

WvW is the big pull. PoF was a pretty good release, but any story related content before or after that is not something I'd ever be interested in playing more than the one time I already have.

 

In WvW the situations are dynamic, the fights are (usually) interesting, and the Discord drama beats watching villains get trotted out of the cage and into the grave every few months.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Warkind.6745" said:

> WvW is the big pull. PoF was a pretty good release, but any story related content before or after that is not something I'd ever be interested in playing more than the one time I already have.

>

> In WvW the situations are dynamic, the fights are (usually) interesting, and the Discord drama beats watching villains get trotted out of the cage and into the grave every few months.

 

No.

 

Large-scale-PvP is better handled and designed in Black Desert Online than in GW2. There's a reason why ArenaNet wants to copy BDO's guild-wars-system. Nonetheless, WvW is also highly dependant on your own server. You may have no real WvW at all and only do PvE all the time, you may have an overly toxic WvW-community, etc. pp. WvW ultimately has a lot of stuff which could be improved.

[Warkind.6745]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Warkind.6745" said:

> > WvW is the big pull. PoF was a pretty good release, but any story related content before or after that is not something I'd ever be interested in playing more than the one time I already have.

> >

> > In WvW the situations are dynamic, the fights are (usually) interesting, and the Discord drama beats watching villains get trotted out of the cage and into the grave every few months.

>

> No.

>

> Large-scale-PvP is better handled and designed in Black Desert Online than in GW2. There's a reason why ArenaNet wants to copy BDO's guild-wars-system. Nonetheless, WvW is also highly dependant on your own server. You may have no real WvW at all and only do PvE all the time, you may have an overly toxic WvW-community, etc. pp. WvW ultimately has a lot of stuff which could be improved.

 

PvP in general isn't handled better in BDO. Fights take egregiously long. Competitive gear is a pain to grind for and very determinant in your success. The combat apes any brawler and is reliant on combos. I sympathize with people who have a weak WvW presence, but I would be very surprised if any server had not a single active WvW guild and at the end of the day, a small coordinated group is all you really need to have fun. Toxicity is just something you should be about to deal with; you'll never find an online game without it.

 

In other words, "no."

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Warkind.6745" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"Warkind.6745" said:

> > > WvW is the big pull. PoF was a pretty good release, but any story related content before or after that is not something I'd ever be interested in playing more than the one time I already have.

> > >

> > > In WvW the situations are dynamic, the fights are (usually) interesting, and the Discord drama beats watching villains get trotted out of the cage and into the grave every few months.

> >

> > No.

> >

> > Large-scale-PvP is better handled and designed in Black Desert Online than in GW2. There's a reason why ArenaNet wants to copy BDO's guild-wars-system. Nonetheless, WvW is also highly dependant on your own server. You may have no real WvW at all and only do PvE all the time, you may have an overly toxic WvW-community, etc. pp. WvW ultimately has a lot of stuff which could be improved.

>

> PvP in general isn't handled better in BDO. Fights take egregiously long. Competitive gear is a pain to grind for and very determinant in your success. The combat apes any brawler and is reliant on combos. I sympathize with people who have a weak WvW presence, but I would be very surprised if any server had not a single active WvW guild and at the end of the day, a small coordinated group is all you really need to have fun. Toxicity is just something you should be about to deal with; you'll never find an online game without it.

>

> In other words, "no."

 

* True, balance in BDO also isn't great, but at least better than in GW2, even though BDO features a gear-treadmill.

* I rather have long fights than dying instantly.

* If you want large-scale-PvP, a small guild/group doesn't cut it. I may as well do unranked as a group then.

* There is reasonable competitiveness and then there is unreasonable toxicity.

 

But I guess we may have to agree to disagree. v:

[Cyninja.2954]

I've skimmed through most replies and it's easy to see where everyone is coming from. Let me instead offer you this advice:

 

In order for you and your friends to enjoy GW2, you will have to invest yourself into one (or multiple) of its main endgame game modes:

 

A. Spvp

B. WvW

C. achievement hunting

D. legendary hunting/crafting

E. Fractals/dungeons

F. raid content

 

Now given as you have already stated that some of this content will not be to your liking, be sure you are okay and happy to dive into the rest. Story and open world content will keep you interested for only so long, and you do not strike me as the type of player who has very limited time to play and would be fullfilled by just playing 2 hours per week.

 

If you manage to get hooked on the games pve endgame (raids, fractals, legendarys) and find enough people you enjoy to play this game with (for the love of god, join a guild) then you'll be able to stick with the game for a long time. Even should you need to take a break, coming back is easy since your gear and progress is not lost.

 

The same goes for WvW where GW2 and ESO are the only reasonable successors to old school DAOC ever since Warhammer Online was shut down.

 

If you expect to play this game and get spoon fed motivation in form of a gear treadmill or in form of easy access automatic Looking For Group algorithms which put random strangers together to satisfy their gear and loot fetish carrot on a stick approach, don't even start. You will get bored soon.

[Riku.4821]

On the topic of Open World PVP in Gw2 and BDO.

Design wise BDO handles it better, but practically speaking it is terrible.

There is actual reward and honor to owning a Castle in BDO.

From the last time I played WVW owning the main castle simply meant "yay a few more points until its recaptured".

 

But I agree the Balance and Gear difference is what ruins BDO pvp.

 

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> A. Spvp

> B. WvW

> C. achievement hunting

> D. legendary hunting/crafting

> E. Fractals/dungeons

> F. raid content

>

> Now given as you have already stated that some of this content will not be to your liking, be sure you are okay and happy to dive into the rest. Story and open world content will keep you interested for only so long, and you do not strike me as the type of player who has very limited time to play and would be fullfilled by just playing 2 hours per week.

 

This is true,

> @"zengara.8301" said:

> I might be very wrong here, but it seems to me you like "grinding". What made me get into Gw2 was 3 essential things,

> -This is probably the most important part for me, that I dont have to kill the same mob over and over to reach to the same state as everyone else is quiet important.

 

Touching up, I wouldn't say I'm a casual player, in terms of playtime. Currently seeking employment after obtaining a bachelors. So I have plenty of time to spare atm haha.

But I am far from a min-maxer. I tried being one in Warframe and in GW2, and it sucked the fun out of both games to where they felt like a job. And I don't care for what people use, as long as its backed with common sense (ie: Not saying you're a DPS guardian in full Nomad gear).

 

I like grinding in terms of killing mobs and what not for EXP, but the combat needs to feel rewarding enough for that, which most games don't. (BDO was close, but open world PVP and gear treadmill makes it not). I don't however like grinding quests. (Playing FF14 main story quest reminded me of this. I want to play Astrologian but need to finish the hundreds of story quests before I get there). I'm also not really one for Holiday events. Even in Gw2, where some can argue the events are a great way to earn gold (Halloween Labyrinth for example). I rather go sort my bank tabs than play Holiday events; and I don't really know why lmao. Limited time events never feel appealing to me, like its a job.

I've never been a fan of PVP because my attention span for a single class is so limited I never "get good" enough to really learn a class and do well at it. On top of my poor mechanical skills at playing classes. So S-PVP is usually not an option (Also given I am competitive by nature, but am bad at PvP is a bad mix haha!). I use to play on Blackgate on release and did WvW, but met some of the most toxic people I could imagine, so I left to a less populated server, and then removed to NSP. Either way, Zerg-fest content is even less appealing to me than Grind-fest quests. I don't like playing a slideshow, and I don't like 1 button spamming with 50 other people and moving on like a mindless group of zombies. I'm rather impatient.

 

And True be told all 3 of my legendaries I've gotten primarily through gem to gold conversion (buying t6 mats, precursor etc). Every time I tried to not spend gems but in the end do anyway. As stated above as well, not big on achievement hunting. I use to back in the xbox 360 days, maxing out every game for the AP. But not anymore.

 

This leaves Fractals, and Raids. I can't say either are the best from my experience in Gw2. But they are fun with the right group.

Because like I said and you've said, Story content only lasts so long then its gone until the next story update, which only lasts a handful of hours at most.