The experiment has failed. Bring back DuoQ.

[Legatus.3608]

> @"HeadCrowned.6834" said:

> > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > Duo is already breaking the system at lower brackets and people have proven they will abuse duo queue for match manipulating.

> >

> > If anything they need to remove duo queue altogether from the 1600-. Right now the meta isn't to mesmer or scourge, its to match manipulate with duo queue shenanigans up until 1600 then win trade to the top.

> >

> > Banning win traders did help but its still insanely obvious this stuff still goes on

>

> I don't see how DuoQ is related to wintrading and match manipulation. If I want to deliberately lose a match, I can do that on my own as well. I don't need a DuoQ partner for that.

 

Because you can queue with a smurf account with your buddy

[Cougre.6543]

> @"HeadCrowned.6834" said:

> - You cant play with ur friends. In unranked you can, but if you both have a reasonable skill level you often get 500-0 matches.

That happens in unranked and ranked, with our without premades. Anecdotal evidence at best.

> - In soloQ nowadays you get a lot of teammates who are below your skill level. Playing with a friend reduces this chance of getting such teammates.

You're giving the predominant populous of videogames more credit than you should. Calling strangers who are part of a negative experience worse than yourself is a common and predictable result of egocentric bias.

My point is, people think and say a lot of nonsense that falls flat the moment you filter anything without empirical evidence and consider the consequences of emotionally charged behavior.

[HeadCrowned.6834]

> @"Cougre.6543" said:

> > @"HeadCrowned.6834" said:

> > - You cant play with ur friends. In unranked you can, but if you both have a reasonable skill level you often get 500-0 matches.

> That happens in unranked and ranked, with our without premades. Anecdotal evidence at best.

> > - In soloQ nowadays you get a lot of teammates who are below your skill level. Playing with a friend reduces this chance of getting such teammates.

> You're giving the predominant populous of videogames more credit than you should. Calling strangers who are part of a negative experience worse than yourself is a common and predictable result of egocentric bias.

> My point is, people think and say a lot of nonsense that falls flat the moment you filter anything without empirical evidence and consider the consequences of emotionally charged behavior.

 

You aint the only one at university you know xD. Ofcourse I don't have empirical evidence for this, only Anet has. But if you need empirical evidence in order to start a forum discussion here then the forum would be empty. It has nothing to do with egocentric bias, it has to do with pure observation. At least Im following a line of reasoning in my argument. If you don't agree with that then its fine, but at least tell us why. All you do is saying ''proof or it didn't happen''. Nice contribution.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

You are missing the third option. The only option:

 

* Remove duo altogether at all tiers, and adjust the pace of the game and balance to make it fun for more players, not only for the higher tiers used to fast paced combat.

 

That way all the people who enter PvP only to be killed so fast they can't even learn what went wrong will not leave so often anymore, there will be more people.

 

Returning duoQ would only exacerbate the problem. It would allow players of more skill to stay together, and with coordination kill other players even faster, and they get even more fed up, and leave even more often. Until PvP gets depopulated beyond salvation.

 

For as long as anyone can be killed in under 3 seconds, the problem will only get worse. Nothing will ever change that other than adjusting the pace of the game. Like it or not, that's the reality of the situation.

[Exedore.6320]

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > @"HeadCrowned.6834" said:

> > I don't see how DuoQ is related to wintrading and match manipulation. If I want to deliberately lose a match, I can do that on my own as well. I don't need a DuoQ partner for that.

>

> Because you can queue with a smurf account with your buddy

The intent of HeadCrowned.6834 was to say:

You can manipulate the system with solo queue, so any argument against duo queue which centers around match manipulation is moot.

 

[HeadCrowned.6834]

> @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> You are missing the third option. The only option:

>

> * Remove duo altogether at all tiers, and adjust the pace of the game and balance to make it fun for more players, not only for the higher tiers used to fast paced combat.

>

> That way all the people who enter PvP only to be killed so fast they can't even learn what went wrong will not leave so often anymore, there will be more people.

>

> Returning duoQ would only exacerbate the problem. It would allow players of more skill to stay together, and with coordination kill other players even faster, and they get even more fed up, and leave even more often. Until PvP gets depopulated beyond salvation.

>

> For as long as anyone can be killed in under 3 seconds, the problem will only get worse. Nothing will ever change that other than adjusting the pace of the game. Like it or not, that's the reality of the situation.

 

Its a bit like what was first? The chicken or the egg? I agree that PvP is quite unfriendly for new players. But the current system allows beginning players for some reason to start in gold or plat, and therefore they will be matched versus good players that kill them quickly. Bringing back DuoQ's might increase the playerbase a bit, giving new players a higher chance of competing with other players of a low skill level. In soloQ bad players will still get oneshot by better players, I don't think bringing back DuoQ is necessarily enhancing this problem. I agree with the things you say, but those are balance and MMR-issues, not so much SoloQ versus DuoQ issues.

[Cougre.6543]

> @"HeadCrowned.6834" said:

> But if you need empirical evidence in order to start a forum discussion here then the forum would be empty.

You don't need it to start a discussion obviously, but ask yourself how meaningful the discussion will be without it. Let's think about how far we (not ArenaNet) have come with PvP system discussion.

> It has nothing to do with egocentric bias, it has to do with pure observation.

Yes, observation that is affected by egocentric bias? You can only see things from your own point of view, that is an observable fact.

> At least Im following a line of reasoning in my argument.

I'm following the line of reasoning that one should view the experiences of players with a healthy amount of skepticism, because they're proven to not always reflect reality.

> If you don't agree with that then its fine, but at least tell us why. All you do is saying ''proof or it didn't happen''. Nice contribution.

I'd say pointing out the fallibility of what little evidence there is to go by for this topic is a better contribution than being defensive about it.

[Razoh.1734]

Gimmi duo back! Soloq was always too boring for me, never found it enjoyable to play alone and Im not talking about having 4 low mmr/bad players in team beacuse i dont really care about it, its just the fact that u playing alone. Of course some ppl say that u can go ATs or unranks but yea reality looks following: AT is 1h waiting before any enjoyable match with decent ppl start, so u get like 2 fun rounds for 2h waiting.. Its way more fun if u can share your experience/knowlage with partner or emotions after match instead of flaming other ppl :D You want to play mmo games to play with ppl, not isolate from them cmon.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

> @"HeadCrowned.6834" said:

> [...]

> Its a bit like what was first? The chicken or the egg? I agree that PvP is quite unfriendly for new players. But the current system allows beginning players for some reason to start in gold or plat, and therefore they will be matched versus good players that kill them quickly. Bringing back DuoQ's might increase the playerbase a bit, giving new players a higher chance of competing with other players of a low skill level. In soloQ bad players will still get oneshot by better players, I don't think bringing back DuoQ is necessarily enhancing this problem. I agree with the things you say, but those are balance and MMR-issues, not so much SoloQ versus DuoQ issues.

 

I've seen the progression of ranked matches in many games. It always follows the same basic pattern:

 

If they first they try variable teams. That doesn't work. Then they try variations like only duo queue under certain circumstances, or only 3 solo + 1 duo per team, and only matching teams with a duo couple with other teams that also have a duo couple. No variation of that ever really works.

 

It always comes down to the same result: If the match is a 'quickmatch' or 'hot join' match with no special rewards, rating or scores on the line, people usually do not have issues with variable teams. For anything else, it's got to be either full made teams vs full made teams, or only full solo teams vs full solo teams. Made groups never mix well with random matching.

 

Either the devs realize it and make the changes, or it stays as another nail in the coffin of that game's PvP.

 

I haven't seen so far any new system that helps. And I doubt anyone will figure out a solution to the problems caused by allowing made parties vs random matchmaking. Nothing has ever worked, since the problems caused by that are intrinsic to it.

[HeadCrowned.6834]

> @"Cougre.6543" said:

> I'd say pointing out the fallibility of what little evidence there is to go by for this topic is a better contribution than being defensive about it.

 

Go play some rounds of PvP for a couple of days. You'll get enough evidence of the bad state PvP finds itself in at the moment.

 

[Legatus.3608]

> @"Exedore.6320" said:

> > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > @"HeadCrowned.6834" said:

> > > I don't see how DuoQ is related to wintrading and match manipulation. If I want to deliberately lose a match, I can do that on my own as well. I don't need a DuoQ partner for that.

> >

> > Because you can queue with a smurf account with your buddy

> The intent of HeadCrowned.6834 was to say:

> You can manipulate the system with solo queue, so any argument against duo queue which centers around match manipulation is moot.

>

 

Thats a fair point, but solo queue removes some of those possibilities at least.

 

I think it would be best to just add pips/track progress to unranked and make cosmetics the only extra reward for ranked play though, because I feel like most of the toxicity and manipulation and stuff comes from people and/or bots farming the rewards. If you can make the rewards a little less profitable than other sources of farming (so bots are more encouraged to stay out of pvp because other things are more profitable), and put cosmetics as the only bonus for doing ranked, I think the match manipulating and toxicity would both improve noticeably.

 

I also don't think team queues of any size should be mixed with solo queues but that's a different issue I guess.

[Exalted Quality.8534]

you can’t really say the experiment failed if there were no pass/fail criteria established beforehand...

 

Option 3 should’ve been soloQ only for everyone regardless of rank which is what I would’ve voted for.

[shadowpass.4236]

They need to implement a way to track people's rating on the forums.

 

I don't care if its hidden or not but people below the 1600 threshold should NOT be allowed to vote. This topic doesn't concern them.

[Razoh.1734]

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > @"Exedore.6320" said:

> > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > @"HeadCrowned.6834" said:

> > > > I don't see how DuoQ is related to wintrading and match manipulation. If I want to deliberately lose a match, I can do that on my own as well. I don't need a DuoQ partner for that.

> > >

> > > Because you can queue with a smurf account with your buddy

> > The intent of HeadCrowned.6834 was to say:

> > You can manipulate the system with solo queue, so any argument against duo queue which centers around match manipulation is moot.

> >

>

> Thats a fair point, but solo queue removes some of those possibilities at least.

>

> I think it would be best to just add pips/track progress to unranked and make cosmetics the only extra reward for ranked play though, because I feel like most of the toxicity and manipulation and stuff comes from people and/or bots farming the rewards. If you can make the rewards a little less profitable than other sources of farming (so bots are more encouraged to stay out of pvp because other things are more profitable), and put cosmetics as the only bonus for doing ranked, I think the match manipulating and toxicity would both improve noticeably.

>

> I also don't think team queues of any size should be mixed with solo queues but that's a different issue I guess.

 

Most of the toxicity and manipulation suffers from tryhards not from ppl that farm rewards, where is logic in that :open_mouth:

[Legatus.3608]

> @"Razoh.1734" said:

> > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > @"Exedore.6320" said:

> > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > > @"HeadCrowned.6834" said:

> > > > > I don't see how DuoQ is related to wintrading and match manipulation. If I want to deliberately lose a match, I can do that on my own as well. I don't need a DuoQ partner for that.

> > > >

> > > > Because you can queue with a smurf account with your buddy

> > > The intent of HeadCrowned.6834 was to say:

> > > You can manipulate the system with solo queue, so any argument against duo queue which centers around match manipulation is moot.

> > >

> >

> > Thats a fair point, but solo queue removes some of those possibilities at least.

> >

> > I think it would be best to just add pips/track progress to unranked and make cosmetics the only extra reward for ranked play though, because I feel like most of the toxicity and manipulation and stuff comes from people and/or bots farming the rewards. If you can make the rewards a little less profitable than other sources of farming (so bots are more encouraged to stay out of pvp because other things are more profitable), and put cosmetics as the only bonus for doing ranked, I think the match manipulating and toxicity would both improve noticeably.

> >

> > I also don't think team queues of any size should be mixed with solo queues but that's a different issue I guess.

>

> Most of the toxicity and manipulation suffers from tryhards not from ppl that farm rewards, where is logic in that :open_mouth:

 

Why are they tryharding though?

 

Maybe a better question is, would you be playing in the same queue as them if there weren't rank-only rewards?

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> You are missing the third option. The only option:

>

> * Remove duo altogether at all tiers, and adjust the pace of the game and balance to make it fun for more players, not only for the higher tiers used to fast paced combat.

>

> That way all the people who enter PvP only to be killed so fast they can't even learn what went wrong will not leave so often anymore, there will be more people.

>

> Returning duoQ would only exacerbate the problem. It would allow players of more skill to stay together, and with coordination kill other players even faster, and they get even more fed up, and leave even more often. Until PvP gets depopulated beyond salvation.

>

> For as long as anyone can be killed in under 3 seconds, the problem will only get worse. Nothing will ever change that other than adjusting the pace of the game. Like it or not, that's the reality of the situation.

 

best answer of the topic

 

I played 10.7k matches since release and PvP was never as bad as now. with a steady downward trend since HoT was released

[HeadCrowned.6834]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> best answer of the topic

>

> I played 10.7k matches since release and PvP was never as bad as now. with a steady downward trend since HoT was released

 

Then why do you vote to keep things as they are, instead of taking a little risk that might benefit the PvP scene.

[Emapudapus.1307]

Lets have again solo AND team q back for one season, lets see which queue will be empty first :D.

[SPESHAL.9106]

Technically, they had it right when they had separate ques for team vs solo. However, they failed so bad at balancing the game that people quit and there wasn't enough people to play both que's. All the game needed was a healthy pvp population, but, instead of attracting more players, they jimmy-rigged things.

 

As a result, we are in no man's land. The way they balance the classes now means you pretty much HAVE to have a partner. Would you EVER want to solo que in high platinum with a necro that just gets focused all game by smart players? Would you want to play a support class with no teammates who know how to take advantage of your support?

 

This is why solo classes like Mesmers and Thieves can carry so much in PvP across all tiers. They don't rely on teammates and have better 1v1 and mobility which is essential for carrying. Anet has rigged it where you can have only 1 teammate (at max) and none at high levels. This gives inherent advantages to some professions versus others.

 

On top of all that, people that want to play and coordinate together can't. As a result, they just pollute and run off more players by team que'ing in unranked where there are tons of new players that get steamrolled/quit.

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"HeadCrowned.6834" said:

> > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > best answer of the topic

> >

> > I played 10.7k matches since release and PvP was never as bad as now. with a steady downward trend since HoT was released

>

> Then why do you vote to keep things as they are, instead of taking a little risk that might benefit the PvP scene.

 

because i hate duoQ

[Solaerin.8635]

Anet should just let people play with their friends in PvP imho

 

The previous poster brings up a very solid point that I hope doesn't get overlooked: really good players being forced into unranked when they want to play with their friends isn't good for anyone, least of all the new players that are just trying to get their bearings and end up getting steamrolled

[Nash.3974]

Btw can people stop suggesting to play AT‘s if you want to play with a friend/team instead of wanting duoq/teamq back?

How are people supposed to form teams when they don’t get a chance to form teammates/friends/duoq-partners?

Back in the day when you had a good player on your team you eventually would asked them to duoq and that’s how you befriended people, this lead to people creating actual teams.

PvP nowadays is so antisocial, selfish and toxic.

And if you consider the fact that ranked arena is a teambased game mode I have to laugh at the fact that it’s literally the most antisocial game mode in the game.

People don’t communicate anymore and you are basically on your own.

I had/created so many friends in the first couple of seasons and now I don’t have any at all.

In the end this still is an mmorpg and the purpose of games like these is to find friends and do stuff together.

@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" take action, it seems like you don’t even try to save PvP… do for once the right thing and bring back duoq at very least!

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

This game isn't competitive or cooperative anymore, ranked is a yolo Q Call of Duty simulator.

 

What is even the point of enforcing solo only? For "fairness" like anyone cares anymore in S12 of the same shit? This game is not going anywhere competitively, enforcing fairness over fun has killed platinum

 

Source: guy who is bored of playing alone for 7 seasons so I just don't PvP at all anymore, grabbed a few legend titles then CYA

[Emapudapus.1307]

> @"SPESHAL.9106" said:

>Would you EVER want to solo que in high platinum with a necro that just gets focused all game by smart players?

YES :D

 

 

[Tyga.7056]

Yes! Bring it back. I'm even almost certain that match quality increases in the positive way. DuoQ = Better Players play Ranked more = Ranked Troll builds die out, cuz uneffective.