apharma.3741 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 > @juno.1840 said: > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > @juno.1840 said: > > > > @Enigmoid.1264 said: > > > > No, this is unnecessarily clunky. Just have attuning to an element the second time have a 1s cooldown, attuning to other elements have a 4s cooldown. I do not want more buttons to press. > > > > > > If it's clunky then don't use it. Having F5 as I described doesn't impact anyone's play style if they choose not to use it. > > > > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > No, this is the point of weaver, you are all essentially asking to make the elite spec into the base class. Aether McLoud.1975 gets it and I agree with his sentiments that instead of a useful 4th stance we have training wheels...not like the other stances are that good anyway except twist of fate. > > > > > > The point of weaver is whatever each player wants it to be. Honestly how "elite" is an elite trait that doesn't let me use the original mechanic of the base class? As I said above, if you like dual-attune then having a toggle on F5 doesn't impact you in any way. > > > > > > F5 is all about providing more play options without taking away any of the current play options. > > > > > > No the point of weaver is as described by ArenaNet > > > > “The benefit of the weaver’s ability to dual-wield elements is primarily their access to dual-attack skills, which combine both of the currently wielded elements in the third skill slot. As an example, the staff’s Pile Driver skill combines both air and earth to produce a violent effect similar to a rail gun. > > > > Elementalists have traditionally been able to change elements at will with a cooldown on the ones they’ve recently attuned to. The weaver’s elements are all tied to the same cooldown, so activating one prevents an immediate swap to another until the cooldown is up. There are a few ways to modify this limit: taking the Arcane specialization line lowers the global recharge—as does using the elite skill Weave Self—while the utility skill Unravel temporarily removes dual attacks and grants access to single-element attunements.” > > > > Source: https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/news/developer-diary-elite-specializations/ > > > > So please stop trying to revert weaver back to core ele by wanting to fully attune almost instantly or providing baseline ways to circumvent the point of the elite spec. If you don’t like the way weaver has it’s skill bar split don’t play it, if weaver isn’t effective in its role which isn’t very well described by ANet then that is a discussion point with ways to improve the class within the parameters outlined above. > > The devs already provided the ability in the utility skill. You're the one who's saying it's wrong to play Weaver with a single attunement switching, not the devs. Do you also say its wrong for players to camp Fire when Ele is designed with 4 attunements. Because some Ele's campe fire, the devs don't pevent it even though that's not how ele was designed. > > The devs have long stated that GW2 is about playing "your way". Asking for options allows more players to realize that goal. If it makes you feel better, instead of F5, change the utility to be a toggle. Then the ability comes with the cost of a utility slot, so some sacrifice is involved. > No I’m saying it’s wrong to want an option to dual attune added baseline like you are asking for or other options to fully attune quicker adding baseline like others have been asking for. If you want to dual attune faster you should have to slot for it, whether that be a trait or utility, this is completely different to wanting to add an F5. I find this comment poor debating indeed as you’re not only trying to twist what I have said or rather not said but you’re also blatantly ignoring what I have said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinta.8906 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 @"apharma.3741" alot of allrdy not too good defensive abilities are hidden behind weaved skills on #3 of eatch weapon. its holding weaver back in pvp/wvw scenarios. as it is right now weaver is a carried pve spec which is a shame as many enjoyed the kpop feeling the original design showed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifu.9745 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Or it could be that non active single attunement/s has no cd when dual attunement is active. For example, you are in Fire/Earth and you wanna go full Water (or Earth, Air). You press Water twice and you are in a Water only attunement. That way you don't need to wait for four seconds to get full benefits from the single attunement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ars Valde.8693 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 > @apharma.3741 said: > > @juno.1840 said: > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > @juno.1840 said: > > > > > @Enigmoid.1264 said: > > > > > No, this is unnecessarily clunky. Just have attuning to an element the second time have a 1s cooldown, attuning to other elements have a 4s cooldown. I do not want more buttons to press. > > > > > > > > If it's clunky then don't use it. Having F5 as I described doesn't impact anyone's play style if they choose not to use it. > > > > > > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > No, this is the point of weaver, you are all essentially asking to make the elite spec into the base class. Aether McLoud.1975 gets it and I agree with his sentiments that instead of a useful 4th stance we have training wheels...not like the other stances are that good anyway except twist of fate. > > > > > > > > The point of weaver is whatever each player wants it to be. Honestly how "elite" is an elite trait that doesn't let me use the original mechanic of the base class? As I said above, if you like dual-attune then having a toggle on F5 doesn't impact you in any way. > > > > > > > > F5 is all about providing more play options without taking away any of the current play options. > > > > > > > > > No the point of weaver is as described by ArenaNet > > > > > > “The benefit of the weaver’s ability to dual-wield elements is primarily their access to dual-attack skills, which combine both of the currently wielded elements in the third skill slot. As an example, the staff’s Pile Driver skill combines both air and earth to produce a violent effect similar to a rail gun. > > > > > > Elementalists have traditionally been able to change elements at will with a cooldown on the ones they’ve recently attuned to. The weaver’s elements are all tied to the same cooldown, so activating one prevents an immediate swap to another until the cooldown is up. There are a few ways to modify this limit: taking the Arcane specialization line lowers the global recharge—as does using the elite skill Weave Self—while the utility skill Unravel temporarily removes dual attacks and grants access to single-element attunements.” > > > > > > Source: https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/news/developer-diary-elite-specializations/ > > > > > > So please stop trying to revert weaver back to core ele by wanting to fully attune almost instantly or providing baseline ways to circumvent the point of the elite spec. If you don’t like the way weaver has it’s skill bar split don’t play it, if weaver isn’t effective in its role which isn’t very well described by ANet then that is a discussion point with ways to improve the class within the parameters outlined above. > > > > The devs already provided the ability in the utility skill. You're the one who's saying it's wrong to play Weaver with a single attunement switching, not the devs. Do you also say its wrong for players to camp Fire when Ele is designed with 4 attunements. Because some Ele's campe fire, the devs don't pevent it even though that's not how ele was designed. > > > > The devs have long stated that GW2 is about playing "your way". Asking for options allows more players to realize that goal. If it makes you feel better, instead of F5, change the utility to be a toggle. Then the ability comes with the cost of a utility slot, so some sacrifice is involved. > > > > No I’m saying it’s wrong to want an option to dual attune added baseline like you are asking for or other options to fully attune quicker adding baseline like others have been asking for. If you want to dual attune faster you should have to slot for it, whether that be a trait or utility, this is completely different to wanting to add an F5. I find this comment poor debating indeed as you’re not only trying to twist what I have said or rather not said but you’re also blatantly ignoring what I have said. Regardless of intent, the problem is that most of Ele's design has been centered around having access to these offhand skills at any given moment. It allows flexibility and strength while being a squishier target. The utility of not being able to do so is *not* offset by the changes Weaver brings. It is less flexible than tempest while demanding a higher skill cap. The risk vs reward ratio for playing the Spec is off and from day one people have been stating that double attuning the singular element you've just swapped to would alleviate this issue while still being a skill choice (If you're after your defensive/CC skills you likely aren't stopping to pop the Dual skill in between). The intent is understood, players are giving the feedback that the intent is executed poorly. If you want to argue semantics about what the devs intended feel free to, but that's not really what's being discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radjan Majere.4208 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 1000% agree with OP and with Ars' reply directly above about the ADDED VALUE of the dual attune being significantly offset by the LOST VALUE of rapid access to existing skills 3-5. Who wants an ele who can't cast a water field quickly in WvW? Either this idea, or remove the cooldown to double attune to a line. Otherwise, instead of weaver feeling like it enhances classic ele, it feels like it encumbers it. I have been playing Sw/F weaver in PvE after playing it in WvW during the test weekend. I honestly enjoy the playstyle of sword, but it's lackluster in effectiveness. OK fine, I'll muck with it in PvE for fun, but for WvW (my "real" content) I'll just go zerk staff with all those lovely dmg modifiers, right? Rough. In WvW, most of your role key skills are on what now becomes the sub-attunement skills (4 and 5). WvW key class abilities Meteor Shower, Cleansing Rain, the chill skill I can't remember the name of, static field, and the earth line and immob.... all on those slots. Plus your other water field is hidden behind the need to double attune, too. Those are the class-defining skills that matter in WvW. To be honest, I LIKE the complexity of rotating attunements and that there's some skill to it, but too many of our "gotta have it now" skills are too slow to get to for not enough benefit. The only viable counterargument I can think of is that most attunements that you're IN have one of those options, and some of them are somewhat interchangeable... e.g. maybe you can't earth line quickly to get a gap but you can chill or flame-roll... but that's a high price to pay vs. classic ele considering we're using mostly the same skills. Those arguments aside, I also agree that the idea of a utility skill that REMOVES the class-defining characteristic... is terribly insulting. That'd be a little like Soulbeast needing to slot a utility skill to split their pet off of them. I think a base F5 option even with a cooldown, makes a ton of sense. Or better yet, just remove the cooldown to double attune, and make the 3 skills ADD a delay so you have to choose between the powerful (?) 3 skill and the full attune option. Either way, replace the full attune stance with something useful. OR, keep this design, but make the reward worth the painful tradeoff (and no, I don't think high dmg on a unmoving large hitbox is enough of a tradeoff.) OFF TOPIC, BUT: Also, pls help sword be stronger - it's fun as hell to play but giving up all ranged option AND being this squishy without a pretty dramatic offense... ouch. Anyone who is smart enough to stand away from me when pulsing the new utility in while in fire/earth and using the pulsing 3 skill... doesn't need to fear me much even with full viper, and I have to tapdance all around for any sustain at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonWhimsy.6489 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 I 1000% agree with the original poster. I don't like having to waste a utility slot on basic functionality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 > @"Ars Valde.8693" said: > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > @juno.1840 said: > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > @juno.1840 said: > > > > > > @Enigmoid.1264 said: > > > > > > No, this is unnecessarily clunky. Just have attuning to an element the second time have a 1s cooldown, attuning to other elements have a 4s cooldown. I do not want more buttons to press. > > > > > > > > > > If it's clunky then don't use it. Having F5 as I described doesn't impact anyone's play style if they choose not to use it. > > > > > > > > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > > No, this is the point of weaver, you are all essentially asking to make the elite spec into the base class. Aether McLoud.1975 gets it and I agree with his sentiments that instead of a useful 4th stance we have training wheels...not like the other stances are that good anyway except twist of fate. > > > > > > > > > > The point of weaver is whatever each player wants it to be. Honestly how "elite" is an elite trait that doesn't let me use the original mechanic of the base class? As I said above, if you like dual-attune then having a toggle on F5 doesn't impact you in any way. > > > > > > > > > > F5 is all about providing more play options without taking away any of the current play options. > > > > > > > > > > > > No the point of weaver is as described by ArenaNet > > > > > > > > “The benefit of the weaver’s ability to dual-wield elements is primarily their access to dual-attack skills, which combine both of the currently wielded elements in the third skill slot. As an example, the staff’s Pile Driver skill combines both air and earth to produce a violent effect similar to a rail gun. > > > > > > > > Elementalists have traditionally been able to change elements at will with a cooldown on the ones they’ve recently attuned to. The weaver’s elements are all tied to the same cooldown, so activating one prevents an immediate swap to another until the cooldown is up. There are a few ways to modify this limit: taking the Arcane specialization line lowers the global recharge—as does using the elite skill Weave Self—while the utility skill Unravel temporarily removes dual attacks and grants access to single-element attunements.” > > > > > > > > Source: https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/news/developer-diary-elite-specializations/ > > > > > > > > So please stop trying to revert weaver back to core ele by wanting to fully attune almost instantly or providing baseline ways to circumvent the point of the elite spec. If you don’t like the way weaver has it’s skill bar split don’t play it, if weaver isn’t effective in its role which isn’t very well described by ANet then that is a discussion point with ways to improve the class within the parameters outlined above. > > > > > > The devs already provided the ability in the utility skill. You're the one who's saying it's wrong to play Weaver with a single attunement switching, not the devs. Do you also say its wrong for players to camp Fire when Ele is designed with 4 attunements. Because some Ele's campe fire, the devs don't pevent it even though that's not how ele was designed. > > > > > > The devs have long stated that GW2 is about playing "your way". Asking for options allows more players to realize that goal. If it makes you feel better, instead of F5, change the utility to be a toggle. Then the ability comes with the cost of a utility slot, so some sacrifice is involved. > > > > > > > No I’m saying it’s wrong to want an option to dual attune added baseline like you are asking for or other options to fully attune quicker adding baseline like others have been asking for. If you want to dual attune faster you should have to slot for it, whether that be a trait or utility, this is completely different to wanting to add an F5. I find this comment poor debating indeed as you’re not only trying to twist what I have said or rather not said but you’re also blatantly ignoring what I have said. > > Regardless of intent, the problem is that most of Ele's design has been centered around having access to these offhand skills at any given moment. It allows flexibility and strength while being a squishier target. The utility of not being able to do so is *not* offset by the changes Weaver brings. It is less flexible than tempest while demanding a higher skill cap. The risk vs reward ratio for playing the Spec is off and from day one people have been stating that double attuning the singular element you've just swapped to would alleviate this issue while still being a skill choice (If you're after your defensive/CC skills you likely aren't stopping to pop the Dual skill in between). > > The intent is understood, players are giving the feedback that the intent is executed poorly. If you want to argue semantics about what the devs intended feel free to, but that's not really what's being discussed. Which is why I have instead of asking to fully attune all the time like the OP and many here I have instead said they need to buff the barrier given on dual skills. I also mention in other threads that the auto attack speed is way off on weaver sword and that the stances, in particular the heal are very poor needing changes or buffs to be competitive vs even racial heals. Once again the argument by the OP isn’t to rectify the risk:reward balance in a consistent manner with the elite spec and design but instead to essentially get fully attuning back for free and go against the point of the elite spec. The issue is that Karl instead of doing something remotely sensible linked the condition clearing to water trait line again, that the barriers generated are pathetic and that most of the defence is loaded onto sword which has many many issues to do with cast times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinorawrr.4685 Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 I feel like an easier solution is to make the same attunement a 0 CD recast with a 1/4s ICD to avoid accidental recast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ars Valde.8693 Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 > @apharma.3741 said: > > @"Ars Valde.8693" said: > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > @juno.1840 said: > > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > > @juno.1840 said: > > > > > > > @Enigmoid.1264 said: > > > > > > > No, this is unnecessarily clunky. Just have attuning to an element the second time have a 1s cooldown, attuning to other elements have a 4s cooldown. I do not want more buttons to press. > > > > > > > > > > > > If it's clunky then don't use it. Having F5 as I described doesn't impact anyone's play style if they choose not to use it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > > > No, this is the point of weaver, you are all essentially asking to make the elite spec into the base class. Aether McLoud.1975 gets it and I agree with his sentiments that instead of a useful 4th stance we have training wheels...not like the other stances are that good anyway except twist of fate. > > > > > > > > > > > > The point of weaver is whatever each player wants it to be. Honestly how "elite" is an elite trait that doesn't let me use the original mechanic of the base class? As I said above, if you like dual-attune then having a toggle on F5 doesn't impact you in any way. > > > > > > > > > > > > F5 is all about providing more play options without taking away any of the current play options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No the point of weaver is as described by ArenaNet > > > > > > > > > > “The benefit of the weaver’s ability to dual-wield elements is primarily their access to dual-attack skills, which combine both of the currently wielded elements in the third skill slot. As an example, the staff’s Pile Driver skill combines both air and earth to produce a violent effect similar to a rail gun. > > > > > > > > > > Elementalists have traditionally been able to change elements at will with a cooldown on the ones they’ve recently attuned to. The weaver’s elements are all tied to the same cooldown, so activating one prevents an immediate swap to another until the cooldown is up. There are a few ways to modify this limit: taking the Arcane specialization line lowers the global recharge—as does using the elite skill Weave Self—while the utility skill Unravel temporarily removes dual attacks and grants access to single-element attunements.” > > > > > > > > > > Source: https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/news/developer-diary-elite-specializations/ > > > > > > > > > > So please stop trying to revert weaver back to core ele by wanting to fully attune almost instantly or providing baseline ways to circumvent the point of the elite spec. If you don’t like the way weaver has it’s skill bar split don’t play it, if weaver isn’t effective in its role which isn’t very well described by ANet then that is a discussion point with ways to improve the class within the parameters outlined above. > > > > > > > > The devs already provided the ability in the utility skill. You're the one who's saying it's wrong to play Weaver with a single attunement switching, not the devs. Do you also say its wrong for players to camp Fire when Ele is designed with 4 attunements. Because some Ele's campe fire, the devs don't pevent it even though that's not how ele was designed. > > > > > > > > The devs have long stated that GW2 is about playing "your way". Asking for options allows more players to realize that goal. If it makes you feel better, instead of F5, change the utility to be a toggle. Then the ability comes with the cost of a utility slot, so some sacrifice is involved. > > > > > > > > > > No I’m saying it’s wrong to want an option to dual attune added baseline like you are asking for or other options to fully attune quicker adding baseline like others have been asking for. If you want to dual attune faster you should have to slot for it, whether that be a trait or utility, this is completely different to wanting to add an F5. I find this comment poor debating indeed as you’re not only trying to twist what I have said or rather not said but you’re also blatantly ignoring what I have said. > > > > Regardless of intent, the problem is that most of Ele's design has been centered around having access to these offhand skills at any given moment. It allows flexibility and strength while being a squishier target. The utility of not being able to do so is *not* offset by the changes Weaver brings. It is less flexible than tempest while demanding a higher skill cap. The risk vs reward ratio for playing the Spec is off and from day one people have been stating that double attuning the singular element you've just swapped to would alleviate this issue while still being a skill choice (If you're after your defensive/CC skills you likely aren't stopping to pop the Dual skill in between). > > > > The intent is understood, players are giving the feedback that the intent is executed poorly. If you want to argue semantics about what the devs intended feel free to, but that's not really what's being discussed. > > Which is why I have instead of asking to fully attune all the time like the OP and many here I have instead said they need to buff the barrier given on dual skills. I also mention in other threads that the auto attack speed is way off on weaver sword and that the stances, in particular the heal are very poor needing changes or buffs to be competitive vs even racial heals. > > Once again the argument by the OP isn’t to rectify the risk:reward balance in a consistent manner with the elite spec and design but instead to essentially get fully attuning back for free and go against the point of the elite spec. The issue is that Karl instead of doing something remotely sensible linked the condition clearing to water trait line again, that the barriers generated are pathetic and that most of the defence is loaded onto sword which has many many issues to do with cast times. You are missing the mark. The design Anet is attempting to force is what is weakening Elementalist to start. Weaver inherently is weaker, cumbersome, and less flexible than base elementalist. Currently yes, Staff weaver is putting out DPS above and beyond current specs but at the cost of only focusing on a single immobile target. Once that's corrected, or Weaver is put in an actual scenario where it can't sit still and spam skills, it crumbles. The risk for reward for actuating the playstyle Anet is trying to enforce is non-existent. It's all risk and little reward. What people have been discussing since Weaver was revealed was that the lack of immediate access to vital offhand skills and middle skills (Obsidian Flesh, Magnetic Aura, Swirling Winds, Shocking Aura, Frozen Burst, Earthquake, etc etc) creates a playstyle that is less flexible, slower, and less survivable. The trade off should be the new skills and utilities offsetting that. Weaver was, after all, supposed to be a bruiser. Instead it is less survivable, less flexible, and less consistent than the competing spec of Tempest. Which has better condition damage and more group utility. Elementalist was never designed to not have access to these powerful skills that are essential to keeping it alive. As for barrier? Even if you doubled it, and made it last a solid 15 seconds, or hell let it double an Elementalist's life total to a nice 22k, it still wouldn't work. The high end of this game (which is what is being discussed, no one who mainly tools around in open world thinks Weaver has a problem) demands you often evade or immune through skills, not face tank them. Barrier encourages the latter and will always be a weak mechanic for it. Further so since Weaver's sustain is abysmal because once again it cannot access it's offhand skills as quickly as base Ele or Tempest. I'm not faulting Anet for underestimating how important the skills are. This is the first time for any class they've had such a unique mechanic. But Weaver is going to need love in some department, as well as some usability adjustments and allowing a quick double attune ( with a .5 global cooldown on the same attunement ) solves this. It makes the spec more survivable, perhaps more powerful (which is will need after Staff's multihitting crap is corrected. FGS 2.0 incoming) and overall more cohesive to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 > @"Ars Valde.8693" said: > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > @"Ars Valde.8693" said: > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > @juno.1840 said: > > > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > > > @juno.1840 said: > > > > > > > > @Enigmoid.1264 said: > > > > > > > > No, this is unnecessarily clunky. Just have attuning to an element the second time have a 1s cooldown, attuning to other elements have a 4s cooldown. I do not want more buttons to press. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If it's clunky then don't use it. Having F5 as I described doesn't impact anyone's play style if they choose not to use it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > > > > No, this is the point of weaver, you are all essentially asking to make the elite spec into the base class. Aether McLoud.1975 gets it and I agree with his sentiments that instead of a useful 4th stance we have training wheels...not like the other stances are that good anyway except twist of fate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point of weaver is whatever each player wants it to be. Honestly how "elite" is an elite trait that doesn't let me use the original mechanic of the base class? As I said above, if you like dual-attune then having a toggle on F5 doesn't impact you in any way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > F5 is all about providing more play options without taking away any of the current play options. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No the point of weaver is as described by ArenaNet > > > > > > > > > > > > “The benefit of the weaver’s ability to dual-wield elements is primarily their access to dual-attack skills, which combine both of the currently wielded elements in the third skill slot. As an example, the staff’s Pile Driver skill combines both air and earth to produce a violent effect similar to a rail gun. > > > > > > > > > > > > Elementalists have traditionally been able to change elements at will with a cooldown on the ones they’ve recently attuned to. The weaver’s elements are all tied to the same cooldown, so activating one prevents an immediate swap to another until the cooldown is up. There are a few ways to modify this limit: taking the Arcane specialization line lowers the global recharge—as does using the elite skill Weave Self—while the utility skill Unravel temporarily removes dual attacks and grants access to single-element attunements.” > > > > > > > > > > > > Source: https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/news/developer-diary-elite-specializations/ > > > > > > > > > > > > So please stop trying to revert weaver back to core ele by wanting to fully attune almost instantly or providing baseline ways to circumvent the point of the elite spec. If you don’t like the way weaver has it’s skill bar split don’t play it, if weaver isn’t effective in its role which isn’t very well described by ANet then that is a discussion point with ways to improve the class within the parameters outlined above. > > > > > > > > > > The devs already provided the ability in the utility skill. You're the one who's saying it's wrong to play Weaver with a single attunement switching, not the devs. Do you also say its wrong for players to camp Fire when Ele is designed with 4 attunements. Because some Ele's campe fire, the devs don't pevent it even though that's not how ele was designed. > > > > > > > > > > The devs have long stated that GW2 is about playing "your way". Asking for options allows more players to realize that goal. If it makes you feel better, instead of F5, change the utility to be a toggle. Then the ability comes with the cost of a utility slot, so some sacrifice is involved. > > > > > > > > > > > > > No I’m saying it’s wrong to want an option to dual attune added baseline like you are asking for or other options to fully attune quicker adding baseline like others have been asking for. If you want to dual attune faster you should have to slot for it, whether that be a trait or utility, this is completely different to wanting to add an F5. I find this comment poor debating indeed as you’re not only trying to twist what I have said or rather not said but you’re also blatantly ignoring what I have said. > > > > > > Regardless of intent, the problem is that most of Ele's design has been centered around having access to these offhand skills at any given moment. It allows flexibility and strength while being a squishier target. The utility of not being able to do so is *not* offset by the changes Weaver brings. It is less flexible than tempest while demanding a higher skill cap. The risk vs reward ratio for playing the Spec is off and from day one people have been stating that double attuning the singular element you've just swapped to would alleviate this issue while still being a skill choice (If you're after your defensive/CC skills you likely aren't stopping to pop the Dual skill in between). > > > > > > The intent is understood, players are giving the feedback that the intent is executed poorly. If you want to argue semantics about what the devs intended feel free to, but that's not really what's being discussed. > > > > Which is why I have instead of asking to fully attune all the time like the OP and many here I have instead said they need to buff the barrier given on dual skills. I also mention in other threads that the auto attack speed is way off on weaver sword and that the stances, in particular the heal are very poor needing changes or buffs to be competitive vs even racial heals. > > > > Once again the argument by the OP isn’t to rectify the risk:reward balance in a consistent manner with the elite spec and design but instead to essentially get fully attuning back for free and go against the point of the elite spec. The issue is that Karl instead of doing something remotely sensible linked the condition clearing to water trait line again, that the barriers generated are pathetic and that most of the defence is loaded onto sword which has many many issues to do with cast times. > > You are missing the mark. The design Anet is attempting to force is what is weakening Elementalist to start. Weaver inherently is weaker, cumbersome, and less flexible than base elementalist. Currently yes, Staff weaver is putting out DPS above and beyond current specs but at the cost of only focusing on a single immobile target. Once that's corrected, or Weaver is put in an actual scenario where it can't sit still and spam skills, it crumbles. The risk for reward for actuating the playstyle Anet is trying to enforce is non-existent. It's all risk and little reward. > > What people have been discussing since Weaver was revealed was that the lack of immediate access to vital offhand skills and middle skills (Obsidian Flesh, Magnetic Aura, Swirling Winds, Shocking Aura, Frozen Burst, Earthquake, etc etc) creates a playstyle that is less flexible, slower, and less survivable. The trade off should be the new skills and utilities offsetting that. Weaver was, after all, supposed to be a bruiser. Instead it is less survivable, less flexible, and less consistent than the competing spec of Tempest. Which has better condition damage and more group utility. Elementalist was never designed to not have access to these powerful skills that are essential to keeping it alive. > > As for barrier? Even if you doubled it, and made it last a solid 15 seconds, or hell let it double an Elementalist's life total to a nice 22k, it still wouldn't work. The high end of this game (which is what is being discussed, no one who mainly tools around in open world thinks Weaver has a problem) demands you often evade or immune through skills, not face tank them. Barrier encourages the latter and will always be a weak mechanic for it. Further so since Weaver's sustain is abysmal because once again it cannot access it's offhand skills as quickly as base Ele or Tempest. > > I'm not faulting Anet for underestimating how important the skills are. This is the first time for any class they've had such a unique mechanic. But Weaver is going to need love in some department, as well as some usability adjustments and allowing a quick double attune ( with a .5 global cooldown on the same attunement ) solves this. It makes the spec more survivable, perhaps more powerful (which is will need after Staff's multihitting crap is corrected. FGS 2.0 incoming) and overall more cohesive to play. No the design of weaver is a different play style, it is you and everyone else here that is completely missing the mark by wanting to effectively change weaver back into base ele. There’s really nothing more to discuss on it, if you don’t like not being able to fully attune either 1) run unravel or 2) don’t run weaver. It really isn’t that hard to come to terms with. As for the barrier comment, clearly you’re clueless about playing vs players, if barrier wasn’t good Scourge would be trash, it isn’t because it has the AoE counter pressure as well as multiple decent barriers to tank those hits it does take. The issue with weaver is that the barriers are completely and utterly pathetic even with investment, they’re about 1/5th of what is out on Scourge but has the higher degree of risk. That’s without mentioning that ele has been about taking hits and regenerating them for pretty much the life of the game which makes your comment ever the more misplaced or that you can slot twist of fate and mistform which is generally much more evasion and invuln uptime than many classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juno.1840 Posted September 29, 2017 Author Share Posted September 29, 2017 > @apharma.3741 said: > No the design of weaver is a different play style, it is you and everyone else here that is completely missing the mark by wanting to effectively change weaver back into base ele. There’s really nothing more to discuss on it, if you don’t like not being able to fully attune either 1) run unravel or 2) don’t run weaver. It really isn’t that hard to come to terms with. > > As for the barrier comment, clearly you’re clueless about playing vs players, if barrier wasn’t good Scourge would be trash, it isn’t because it has the AoE counter pressure as well as multiple decent barriers to tank those hits it does take. The issue with weaver is that the barriers are completely and utterly pathetic even with investment, they’re about 1/5th of what is out on Scourge but has the higher degree of risk. That’s without mentioning that ele has been about taking hits and regenerating them for pretty much the life of the game which makes your comment ever the more misplaced or that you can slot twist of fate and mistform which is generally much more evasion and invuln uptime than many classes. You keep fighting this war like it effects you -- it doesn't. I clearly spelled out that this change allows more "play your way", not less. Nobody is trying to change weaver for anyone else, just themselves. Try to stay on this specific discussion point -- that's the intent of this discussion (which I started). @"Ars Valde.8693" has described one of the more serious problems with dual-attunement -- the inability to get to skills 3, 4 and 5 which are critical, on-demand skills in competitive play. Gating them behind a 3.5-4.0 second global cooldown is not fun. Using Unravel still gates them behind an addition key-press and associate skilled activation cooldown. If dual-attunement is so freaking great, then it using a single-attunement F5 stance shouldn't provide a competitive advantage. You lose dual-attune skills which should be a serious disadvantage since those are one of the profession-defining mechanics (as you yourself quoted from ANet earlier in this discussion). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 > @juno.1840 said: > > @apharma.3741 said: > > No the design of weaver is a different play style, it is you and everyone else here that is completely missing the mark by wanting to effectively change weaver back into base ele. There’s really nothing more to discuss on it, if you don’t like not being able to fully attune either 1) run unravel or 2) don’t run weaver. It really isn’t that hard to come to terms with. > > > > As for the barrier comment, clearly you’re clueless about playing vs players, if barrier wasn’t good Scourge would be trash, it isn’t because it has the AoE counter pressure as well as multiple decent barriers to tank those hits it does take. The issue with weaver is that the barriers are completely and utterly pathetic even with investment, they’re about 1/5th of what is out on Scourge but has the higher degree of risk. That’s without mentioning that ele has been about taking hits and regenerating them for pretty much the life of the game which makes your comment ever the more misplaced or that you can slot twist of fate and mistform which is generally much more evasion and invuln uptime than many classes. > > You keep fighting this war like it **effects you -- it doesn't.** I clearly spelled out that this change allows more "play your way", not less. Nobody is trying to change weaver for anyone else, just themselves. Try to stay on this specific discussion point -- that's the intent of this discussion (which I started). > > @"Ars Valde.8693" has described one of the more serious problems with dual-attunement -- the inability to get to skills 3, 4 and 5 which are critical, on-demand skills in competitive play. Gating them behind a 3.5-4.0 second global cooldown is not fun. Using Unravel still gates them behind an addition key-press and associate skilled activation cooldown. > > If dual-attunement is so freaking great, then it using a single-attunement F5 stance shouldn't provide a competitive advantage. You lose dual-attune skills which should be a serious disadvantage since those are one of the profession-defining mechanics (as you yourself quoted from ANet earlier in this discussion). > Except you want ANet to add something to the class baseline where it will actually affect the class as well as the balancing of the class, so yes it will affect me and everyone else not just the period if it was implemented but for the rest of the games lifespan. Skills will be left in their poor state _because you can just dual attune if you need to_ traits will be reduced in strength _because you can just dual attune if you need to_. As much as I hate that ANet didn’t listen to the feedback concerning the swords clunky nature for the sake of this thread I am very glad they ignore the ill thought out half baked ideas people come up with without thinking through the further implications it has. Giving baseline unravel would not fix the issues with weaver, it would be putting a band aid over it and the mantra above would be used time and time again to prevent meaningful changes being made to the class to get it out of this clunky rut it is in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 > @juno.1840 said: > > @apharma.3741 said: > > No the design of weaver is a different play style, it is you and everyone else here that is completely missing the mark by wanting to effectively change weaver back into base ele. There’s really nothing more to discuss on it, if you don’t like not being able to fully attune either 1) run unravel or 2) don’t run weaver. It really isn’t that hard to come to terms with. > > > > As for the barrier comment, clearly you’re clueless about playing vs players, if barrier wasn’t good Scourge would be trash, it isn’t because it has the AoE counter pressure as well as multiple decent barriers to tank those hits it does take. The issue with weaver is that the barriers are completely and utterly pathetic even with investment, they’re about 1/5th of what is out on Scourge but has the higher degree of risk. That’s without mentioning that ele has been about taking hits and regenerating them for pretty much the life of the game which makes your comment ever the more misplaced or that you can slot twist of fate and mistform which is generally much more evasion and invuln uptime than many classes. > > You keep fighting this war like it effects you -- it doesn't. > It effects everyone... I personally enjoy Weaver a lot because of the higher skill floor they put into it which includes knowing builds aswell as rotations, fields and finishers... Once you get used to it, you'll realise how useless that dual attunement stance is and that suggesting to put that f5 idea as a function is like asking for permanent training wheels for everyone and ultimately dropping the skill floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juno.1840 Posted September 29, 2017 Author Share Posted September 29, 2017 > @apharma.3741 said: > > @juno.1840 said: > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > No the design of weaver is a different play style, it is you and everyone else here that is completely missing the mark by wanting to effectively change weaver back into base ele. There’s really nothing more to discuss on it, if you don’t like not being able to fully attune either 1) run unravel or 2) don’t run weaver. It really isn’t that hard to come to terms with. > > > > > > As for the barrier comment, clearly you’re clueless about playing vs players, if barrier wasn’t good Scourge would be trash, it isn’t because it has the AoE counter pressure as well as multiple decent barriers to tank those hits it does take. The issue with weaver is that the barriers are completely and utterly pathetic even with investment, they’re about 1/5th of what is out on Scourge but has the higher degree of risk. That’s without mentioning that ele has been about taking hits and regenerating them for pretty much the life of the game which makes your comment ever the more misplaced or that you can slot twist of fate and mistform which is generally much more evasion and invuln uptime than many classes. > > > > You keep fighting this war like it **effects you -- it doesn't.** I clearly spelled out that this change allows more "play your way", not less. Nobody is trying to change weaver for anyone else, just themselves. Try to stay on this specific discussion point -- that's the intent of this discussion (which I started). > > > > @"Ars Valde.8693" has described one of the more serious problems with dual-attunement -- the inability to get to skills 3, 4 and 5 which are critical, on-demand skills in competitive play. Gating them behind a 3.5-4.0 second global cooldown is not fun. Using Unravel still gates them behind an addition key-press and associate skilled activation cooldown. > > > > If dual-attunement is so freaking great, then it using a single-attunement F5 stance shouldn't provide a competitive advantage. You lose dual-attune skills which should be a serious disadvantage since those are one of the profession-defining mechanics (as you yourself quoted from ANet earlier in this discussion). > > > > Except you want ANet to add something to the class baseline where **it will actually affect the class as well as the balancing of the class**, so yes it will affect me and everyone else not just the period if it was implemented but for the rest of the games lifespan. Skills will be left in their poor state _because you can just dual attune if you need to_ traits will be reduced in strength _because you can just dual attune if you need to_. > > As much as I hate that ANet didn’t listen to the feedback concerning the swords clunky nature for the sake of this thread I am very glad they ignore the ill thought out half baked ideas people come up with without thinking through the further implications it has. Giving baseline unravel would not fix the issues with weaver, it would be putting a band aid over it and the mantra above would be used time and time again to prevent meaningful changes being made to the class to get it out of this clunky rut it is in. You're making an assumption that the change would require a rebalance of the class. I don't think that's the case. Maybe you can give an example of a **required** rebalance as a result of adding F5 for single attunement switching. That example of course requires some justification, something more than "because I said so". You never mentioned balance as a concern in your original posts -- you were more focused on "that's not how weaver is supposed to be played". It's ok if you're switching your position, I just want to make sure your primary concern is balance -- otherwise we're just arguing for the sake of arguing. I don't like chasing red-herrings. > @sephiroth.4217 said: > > @juno.1840 said: > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > No the design of weaver is a different play style, it is you and everyone else here that is completely missing the mark by wanting to effectively change weaver back into base ele. There’s really nothing more to discuss on it, if you don’t like not being able to fully attune either 1) run unravel or 2) don’t run weaver. It really isn’t that hard to come to terms with. > > > > > > As for the barrier comment, clearly you’re clueless about playing vs players, if barrier wasn’t good Scourge would be trash, it isn’t because it has the AoE counter pressure as well as multiple decent barriers to tank those hits it does take. The issue with weaver is that the barriers are completely and utterly pathetic even with investment, they’re about 1/5th of what is out on Scourge but has the higher degree of risk. That’s without mentioning that ele has been about taking hits and regenerating them for pretty much the life of the game which makes your comment ever the more misplaced or that you can slot twist of fate and mistform which is generally much more evasion and invuln uptime than many classes. > > > > You keep fighting this war like it effects you -- it doesn't. > > > > It effects everyone... I personally enjoy Weaver a lot because of the higher skill floor they put into it which includes knowing builds aswell as rotations, fields and finishers... > > Once you get used to it, you'll realise how useless that dual attunement stance is and that suggesting to put that f5 idea as a function is like asking for permanent training wheels for everyone and ultimately dropping the skill floor. > You didn't say how it effects everyone. Please explain how it would change your play style. Regarding "training wheels", you're quite a bit off the mark (and condescending at the same time -- a two-fer!). Saying "play it longer and you'll start to like it" is not really valid. I simply want to play Weaver my way, without preventing other players from doing the same. This comes with rules like not breaking game balance, but I have not heard any valid arguments on how this F5 proposal breaks balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 > @juno.1840 said: > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > @juno.1840 said: > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > No the design of weaver is a different play style, it is you and everyone else here that is completely missing the mark by wanting to effectively change weaver back into base ele. There’s really nothing more to discuss on it, if you don’t like not being able to fully attune either 1) run unravel or 2) don’t run weaver. It really isn’t that hard to come to terms with. > > > > > > > > As for the barrier comment, clearly you’re clueless about playing vs players, if barrier wasn’t good Scourge would be trash, it isn’t because it has the AoE counter pressure as well as multiple decent barriers to tank those hits it does take. The issue with weaver is that the barriers are completely and utterly pathetic even with investment, they’re about 1/5th of what is out on Scourge but has the higher degree of risk. That’s without mentioning that ele has been about taking hits and regenerating them for pretty much the life of the game which makes your comment ever the more misplaced or that you can slot twist of fate and mistform which is generally much more evasion and invuln uptime than many classes. > > > > > > You keep fighting this war like it **effects you -- it doesn't.** I clearly spelled out that this change allows more "play your way", not less. Nobody is trying to change weaver for anyone else, just themselves. Try to stay on this specific discussion point -- that's the intent of this discussion (which I started). > > > > > > @"Ars Valde.8693" has described one of the more serious problems with dual-attunement -- the inability to get to skills 3, 4 and 5 which are critical, on-demand skills in competitive play. Gating them behind a 3.5-4.0 second global cooldown is not fun. Using Unravel still gates them behind an addition key-press and associate skilled activation cooldown. > > > > > > If dual-attunement is so freaking great, then it using a single-attunement F5 stance shouldn't provide a competitive advantage. You lose dual-attune skills which should be a serious disadvantage since those are one of the profession-defining mechanics (as you yourself quoted from ANet earlier in this discussion). > > > > > > > Except you want ANet to add something to the class baseline where **it will actually affect the class as well as the balancing of the class**, so yes it will affect me and everyone else not just the period if it was implemented but for the rest of the games lifespan. Skills will be left in their poor state _because you can just dual attune if you need to_ traits will be reduced in strength _because you can just dual attune if you need to_. > > > > As much as I hate that ANet didn’t listen to the feedback concerning the swords clunky nature for the sake of this thread I am very glad they ignore the ill thought out half baked ideas people come up with without thinking through the further implications it has. Giving baseline unravel would not fix the issues with weaver, it would be putting a band aid over it and the mantra above would be used time and time again to prevent meaningful changes being made to the class to get it out of this clunky rut it is in. > > You're making an assumption that the change would require a rebalance of the class. I don't think that's the case. Maybe you can give an example of a **required** rebalance as a result of adding F5 for single attunement switching. That example of course requires some justification, something more than "because I said so". > > You never mentioned balance as a concern in your original posts -- you were more focused on "that's not how weaver is supposed to be played". It's ok if you're switching your position, I just want to make sure your primary concern is balance -- otherwise we're just arguing for the sake of arguing. I don't like chasing red-herrings. You are asking for an option to be added baseline to the elite spec, this would affect balance **because every single balance decision would have to take into account being able to instantly switch to your defensive skills on a whim and the use of this F5 mechanic**. I didn’t think this sort of blatantly obvious thought process needed explaining because it’s so blatantly obvious and yet here I am having to explain it. It’s like how you’re trying to convince Sephiroth that changing the elite spec at its fundamental level for everyone won’t affect everyone, it’s just complete short sightedness on your part and show how little thought you’re putting into it and the wider implications, without mentioning how you’re now trying to convince us that fire isn’t hot. My original point was that the design of the class is without this F5 mechanic and that is how it should stay, any issues people have with the way that the class works should have been addressed while staying true to the design of the class. You chose to completely ignore what I said about how you can either slot unravel, run fresh air, arcana, run the elite to attune faster and get skills faster. Could also just not run weaver, doesn’t seem like you get it so probably for the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juno.1840 Posted September 29, 2017 Author Share Posted September 29, 2017 > @apharma.3741 said: > > @juno.1840 said: > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > @juno.1840 said: > > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > No the design of weaver is a different play style, it is you and everyone else here that is completely missing the mark by wanting to effectively change weaver back into base ele. There’s really nothing more to discuss on it, if you don’t like not being able to fully attune either 1) run unravel or 2) don’t run weaver. It really isn’t that hard to come to terms with. > > > > > > > > > > As for the barrier comment, clearly you’re clueless about playing vs players, if barrier wasn’t good Scourge would be trash, it isn’t because it has the AoE counter pressure as well as multiple decent barriers to tank those hits it does take. The issue with weaver is that the barriers are completely and utterly pathetic even with investment, they’re about 1/5th of what is out on Scourge but has the higher degree of risk. That’s without mentioning that ele has been about taking hits and regenerating them for pretty much the life of the game which makes your comment ever the more misplaced or that you can slot twist of fate and mistform which is generally much more evasion and invuln uptime than many classes. > > > > > > > > You keep fighting this war like it **effects you -- it doesn't.** I clearly spelled out that this change allows more "play your way", not less. Nobody is trying to change weaver for anyone else, just themselves. Try to stay on this specific discussion point -- that's the intent of this discussion (which I started). > > > > > > > > @"Ars Valde.8693" has described one of the more serious problems with dual-attunement -- the inability to get to skills 3, 4 and 5 which are critical, on-demand skills in competitive play. Gating them behind a 3.5-4.0 second global cooldown is not fun. Using Unravel still gates them behind an addition key-press and associate skilled activation cooldown. > > > > > > > > If dual-attunement is so freaking great, then it using a single-attunement F5 stance shouldn't provide a competitive advantage. You lose dual-attune skills which should be a serious disadvantage since those are one of the profession-defining mechanics (as you yourself quoted from ANet earlier in this discussion). > > > > > > > > > > Except you want ANet to add something to the class baseline where **it will actually affect the class as well as the balancing of the class**, so yes it will affect me and everyone else not just the period if it was implemented but for the rest of the games lifespan. Skills will be left in their poor state _because you can just dual attune if you need to_ traits will be reduced in strength _because you can just dual attune if you need to_. > > > > > > As much as I hate that ANet didn’t listen to the feedback concerning the swords clunky nature for the sake of this thread I am very glad they ignore the ill thought out half baked ideas people come up with without thinking through the further implications it has. Giving baseline unravel would not fix the issues with weaver, it would be putting a band aid over it and the mantra above would be used time and time again to prevent meaningful changes being made to the class to get it out of this clunky rut it is in. > > > > You're making an assumption that the change would require a rebalance of the class. I don't think that's the case. Maybe you can give an example of a **required** rebalance as a result of adding F5 for single attunement switching. That example of course requires some justification, something more than "because I said so". > > > > You never mentioned balance as a concern in your original posts -- you were more focused on "that's not how weaver is supposed to be played". It's ok if you're switching your position, I just want to make sure your primary concern is balance -- otherwise we're just arguing for the sake of arguing. I don't like chasing red-herrings. > > You are asking for an option to be added baseline to the elite spec, this would affect balance **because every single balance decision would have to take into account being able to instantly switch to your defensive skills on a whim and the use of this F5 mechanic**. I didn’t think this sort of blatantly obvious thought process needed explaining because it’s so blatantly obvious and yet here I am having to explain it. It’s like how you’re trying to convince Sephiroth that changing the elite spec at its fundamental level for everyone won’t affect everyone, it’s just complete short sightedness on your part and show how little thought you’re putting into it and the wider implications, without mentioning how you’re now trying to convince us that fire isn’t hot. > > My original point was that the design of the class is without this F5 mechanic and that is how it should stay, any issues people have with the way that the class works should have been addressed while staying true to the design of the class. You chose to completely ignore what I said about how you can either slot unravel, run fresh air, arcana, run the elite to attune faster and get skills faster. Could also just not run weaver, doesn’t seem like you get it so probably for the best. I guess when I said offer something more than "because I said so" was asking too much. At this point your argument is switching to ad hominem which nobody appreciates. Here's a rehash of what I'm saying... again: * F5 does nothing more than what base ele already does. Nobody said the attunements had to remain on 3.5-4.0 second cooldown when using F5 for single attunements. * In single attunement, you lose access to dual-skills which by the developer accounts should be a loss, downgrade, reduction in power, fill in the blank. * You can already fully attune with Weaver, so the class is balanced around having a full attunement possible. * Lastly, a utility already allows this with the restriction of cooldown. * Not using F5 is exactly what you have today -- don't like it, don't use it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 > @juno.1840 said: > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > @juno.1840 said: > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > No the design of weaver is a different play style, it is you and everyone else here that is completely missing the mark by wanting to effectively change weaver back into base ele. There’s really nothing more to discuss on it, if you don’t like not being able to fully attune either 1) run unravel or 2) don’t run weaver. It really isn’t that hard to come to terms with. > > > > > > > > As for the barrier comment, clearly you’re clueless about playing vs players, if barrier wasn’t good Scourge would be trash, it isn’t because it has the AoE counter pressure as well as multiple decent barriers to tank those hits it does take. The issue with weaver is that the barriers are completely and utterly pathetic even with investment, they’re about 1/5th of what is out on Scourge but has the higher degree of risk. That’s without mentioning that ele has been about taking hits and regenerating them for pretty much the life of the game which makes your comment ever the more misplaced or that you can slot twist of fate and mistform which is generally much more evasion and invuln uptime than many classes. > > > > > > You keep fighting this war like it **effects you -- it doesn't.** I clearly spelled out that this change allows more "play your way", not less. Nobody is trying to change weaver for anyone else, just themselves. Try to stay on this specific discussion point -- that's the intent of this discussion (which I started). > > > > > > @"Ars Valde.8693" has described one of the more serious problems with dual-attunement -- the inability to get to skills 3, 4 and 5 which are critical, on-demand skills in competitive play. Gating them behind a 3.5-4.0 second global cooldown is not fun. Using Unravel still gates them behind an addition key-press and associate skilled activation cooldown. > > > > > > If dual-attunement is so freaking great, then it using a single-attunement F5 stance shouldn't provide a competitive advantage. You lose dual-attune skills which should be a serious disadvantage since those are one of the profession-defining mechanics (as you yourself quoted from ANet earlier in this discussion). > > > > > > > Except you want ANet to add something to the class baseline where **it will actually affect the class as well as the balancing of the class**, so yes it will affect me and everyone else not just the period if it was implemented but for the rest of the games lifespan. Skills will be left in their poor state _because you can just dual attune if you need to_ traits will be reduced in strength _because you can just dual attune if you need to_. > > > > As much as I hate that ANet didn’t listen to the feedback concerning the swords clunky nature for the sake of this thread I am very glad they ignore the ill thought out half baked ideas people come up with without thinking through the further implications it has. Giving baseline unravel would not fix the issues with weaver, it would be putting a band aid over it and the mantra above would be used time and time again to prevent meaningful changes being made to the class to get it out of this clunky rut it is in. > > You're making an assumption that the change would require a rebalance of the class. I don't think that's the case. Maybe you can give an example of a **required** rebalance as a result of adding F5 for single attunement switching. That example of course requires some justification, something more than "because I said so". > > You never mentioned balance as a concern in your original posts -- you were more focused on "that's not how weaver is supposed to be played". It's ok if you're switching your position, I just want to make sure your primary concern is balance -- otherwise we're just arguing for the sake of arguing. I don't like chasing red-herrings. > > > @sephiroth.4217 said: > > > @juno.1840 said: > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > No the design of weaver is a different play style, it is you and everyone else here that is completely missing the mark by wanting to effectively change weaver back into base ele. There’s really nothing more to discuss on it, if you don’t like not being able to fully attune either 1) run unravel or 2) don’t run weaver. It really isn’t that hard to come to terms with. > > > > > > > > As for the barrier comment, clearly you’re clueless about playing vs players, if barrier wasn’t good Scourge would be trash, it isn’t because it has the AoE counter pressure as well as multiple decent barriers to tank those hits it does take. The issue with weaver is that the barriers are completely and utterly pathetic even with investment, they’re about 1/5th of what is out on Scourge but has the higher degree of risk. That’s without mentioning that ele has been about taking hits and regenerating them for pretty much the life of the game which makes your comment ever the more misplaced or that you can slot twist of fate and mistform which is generally much more evasion and invuln uptime than many classes. > > > > > > You keep fighting this war like it effects you -- it doesn't. > > > > > > > It effects everyone... I personally enjoy Weaver a lot because of the higher skill floor they put into it which includes knowing builds aswell as rotations, fields and finishers... > > > > Once you get used to it, you'll realise how useless that dual attunement stance is and that suggesting to put that f5 idea as a function is like asking for permanent training wheels for everyone and ultimately dropping the skill floor. > > > > You didn't say how it effects everyone. Please explain how it would change your play style. > > Regarding "training wheels", you're quite a bit off the mark (and condescending at the same time -- a two-fer!). Saying "play it longer and you'll start to like it" is not really valid. I simply want to play Weaver my way, without preventing other players from doing the same. This comes with rules like not breaking game balance, but I have not heard any valid arguments on how this F5 proposal breaks balance. What I'm saying is, give it more practice and you'll get used to it and if you don't like it, maybe play warrior, a class a lot simpler than Elementalist. I also explained it's like training wheels, that's not condescending, it's what you're asking for, permanent training wheels for everyone and effectively lowering the skill floor for everyone. Please don't grasp at straws, this has nothing to do with balance. Please start learning the class mechanics and stop trying to have it changed to made simple. Some of us, as explained, like the challenge and already overcame it and when you hit that point you realise how useless the dual attunement stance really is... I really enjoy the Weaver Spec and I bought PoF specifically for the Weaver. If you don't like it, don't play it but again, stop trying to change it on people that do like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 > @juno.1840 said: > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > @juno.1840 said: > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > @juno.1840 said: > > > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > > No the design of weaver is a different play style, it is you and everyone else here that is completely missing the mark by wanting to effectively change weaver back into base ele. There’s really nothing more to discuss on it, if you don’t like not being able to fully attune either 1) run unravel or 2) don’t run weaver. It really isn’t that hard to come to terms with. > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the barrier comment, clearly you’re clueless about playing vs players, if barrier wasn’t good Scourge would be trash, it isn’t because it has the AoE counter pressure as well as multiple decent barriers to tank those hits it does take. The issue with weaver is that the barriers are completely and utterly pathetic even with investment, they’re about 1/5th of what is out on Scourge but has the higher degree of risk. That’s without mentioning that ele has been about taking hits and regenerating them for pretty much the life of the game which makes your comment ever the more misplaced or that you can slot twist of fate and mistform which is generally much more evasion and invuln uptime than many classes. > > > > > > > > > > You keep fighting this war like it **effects you -- it doesn't.** I clearly spelled out that this change allows more "play your way", not less. Nobody is trying to change weaver for anyone else, just themselves. Try to stay on this specific discussion point -- that's the intent of this discussion (which I started). > > > > > > > > > > @"Ars Valde.8693" has described one of the more serious problems with dual-attunement -- the inability to get to skills 3, 4 and 5 which are critical, on-demand skills in competitive play. Gating them behind a 3.5-4.0 second global cooldown is not fun. Using Unravel still gates them behind an addition key-press and associate skilled activation cooldown. > > > > > > > > > > If dual-attunement is so freaking great, then it using a single-attunement F5 stance shouldn't provide a competitive advantage. You lose dual-attune skills which should be a serious disadvantage since those are one of the profession-defining mechanics (as you yourself quoted from ANet earlier in this discussion). > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except you want ANet to add something to the class baseline where **it will actually affect the class as well as the balancing of the class**, so yes it will affect me and everyone else not just the period if it was implemented but for the rest of the games lifespan. Skills will be left in their poor state _because you can just dual attune if you need to_ traits will be reduced in strength _because you can just dual attune if you need to_. > > > > > > > > As much as I hate that ANet didn’t listen to the feedback concerning the swords clunky nature for the sake of this thread I am very glad they ignore the ill thought out half baked ideas people come up with without thinking through the further implications it has. Giving baseline unravel would not fix the issues with weaver, it would be putting a band aid over it and the mantra above would be used time and time again to prevent meaningful changes being made to the class to get it out of this clunky rut it is in. > > > > > > You're making an assumption that the change would require a rebalance of the class. I don't think that's the case. Maybe you can give an example of a **required** rebalance as a result of adding F5 for single attunement switching. That example of course requires some justification, something more than "because I said so". > > > > > > You never mentioned balance as a concern in your original posts -- you were more focused on "that's not how weaver is supposed to be played". It's ok if you're switching your position, I just want to make sure your primary concern is balance -- otherwise we're just arguing for the sake of arguing. I don't like chasing red-herrings. > > > > You are asking for an option to be added baseline to the elite spec, this would affect balance **because every single balance decision would have to take into account being able to instantly switch to your defensive skills on a whim and the use of this F5 mechanic**. I didn’t think this sort of blatantly obvious thought process needed explaining because it’s so blatantly obvious and yet here I am having to explain it. It’s like how you’re trying to convince Sephiroth that changing the elite spec at its fundamental level for everyone won’t affect everyone, it’s just complete short sightedness on your part and show how little thought you’re putting into it and the wider implications, without mentioning how you’re now trying to convince us that fire isn’t hot. > > > > My original point was that the design of the class is without this F5 mechanic and that is how it should stay, any issues people have with the way that the class works should have been addressed while staying true to the design of the class. You chose to completely ignore what I said about how you can either slot unravel, run fresh air, arcana, run the elite to attune faster and get skills faster. Could also just not run weaver, doesn’t seem like you get it so probably for the best. > > I guess when I said offer something more than "because I said so" was asking too much. At this point your argument is switching to ad hominem which nobody appreciates. > > Here's a rehash of what I'm saying... again: > > * F5 does nothing more than what base ele already does. Nobody said the attunements had to remain on 3.5-4.0 second cooldown when using F5 for single attunements. > * In single attunement, you lose access to dual-skills which by the developer accounts should be a loss, downgrade, reduction in power, fill in the blank. > * You can already fully attune with Weaver, so the class is balanced around having a full attunement possible. > * Lastly, a utility already allows this with the restriction of cooldown. > * Not using F5 is exactly what you have today -- don't like it, don't use it > I gave you a reason in bold, it wasn’t just because I say so. Your proposal isn’t to add an option that you can simply unpick, your proposal is to add a function that will always be there, an F5 button to the class where there would be no way to not pick it. Currently if you want to fully attune it has an opportunity/cost associated with it. You either have to wait 4-3.5s, slot unravel or utilise a trait like fresh air to instantly swap to air on crits. Your suggestion does not allow to simply not have this option, you make no provision to not have it as a part of the elite spec like the current options. Therefore whenever someone says, like Ars Valde, that defensive skills don’t have immediate access the response will be oh yes they do, use your F5 to fully attune, don’t waste your F5 etc. So instead of getting the improvements to the elite spec that it needs (namely increased barrier generation which is uncorruptable) it will be simply balanced by the class and the wider power of the skills not the mechanics at play of 4s before defences become available. Instead of being allowed to generate and maintain a 2-3k barrier through buffing of barrier generation to blunt spikes of damage you’ll be told to use F5 and obsidian flesh same with every single aspect, you’ll be told to use Xoffhand and simply fully attune with F5 when needed. There’s no point continuing this discussion after this, I put in bold a reason why balance would be affected but you chose to completely ignore it just like every point everyone else has raised. You keep ignoring the fact your option isn’t optional and remain blind to that point citing “just don’t use it” as if people would have the option to not have an F5, which they wouldn’t. I hope for everyone’s sake ANet never listen to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azzu.1649 Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 I find the current system very unpleasant too. At some point, you'll ask yourself "wow which one will change this time". But my sugestion is different : * Press f1-4 will change the main attunement * Press [Weapon Swap key] will apply the next change to the secondary attunement. * Press again to cancel and apply the next change to the main. * Main and secondary attunement could have distinct 4s cooldowns , with a ~0.5s shared on switch. UI sample :  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether McLoud.1975 Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 > @Azzu.1649 said: > I find the current system very unpleasant too. At some point, you'll ask yourself "wow which one will change this time". > But my sugestion is different : > * Press f1-4 will change the main attunement > * Press [Weapon Swap key] will apply the next change to the secondary attunement. > * Press again to cancel and apply the next change to the main. > * Main and secondary attunement could have distinct 4s cooldowns , with a ~0.5s shared on switch. > > UI sample : >  > > Suddenly, you can't drop your summoned weapon anymore (weapon swap key), or your special attunement function suddenly stops working while wielding a bundle... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juno.1840 Posted September 30, 2017 Author Share Posted September 30, 2017 > @apharma.3741 said: > > @juno.1840 said: > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > @juno.1840 said: > > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > > @juno.1840 said: > > > > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > > > No the design of weaver is a different play style, it is you and everyone else here that is completely missing the mark by wanting to effectively change weaver back into base ele. There’s really nothing more to discuss on it, if you don’t like not being able to fully attune either 1) run unravel or 2) don’t run weaver. It really isn’t that hard to come to terms with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the barrier comment, clearly you’re clueless about playing vs players, if barrier wasn’t good Scourge would be trash, it isn’t because it has the AoE counter pressure as well as multiple decent barriers to tank those hits it does take. The issue with weaver is that the barriers are completely and utterly pathetic even with investment, they’re about 1/5th of what is out on Scourge but has the higher degree of risk. That’s without mentioning that ele has been about taking hits and regenerating them for pretty much the life of the game which makes your comment ever the more misplaced or that you can slot twist of fate and mistform which is generally much more evasion and invuln uptime than many classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > You keep fighting this war like it **effects you -- it doesn't.** I clearly spelled out that this change allows more "play your way", not less. Nobody is trying to change weaver for anyone else, just themselves. Try to stay on this specific discussion point -- that's the intent of this discussion (which I started). > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ars Valde.8693" has described one of the more serious problems with dual-attunement -- the inability to get to skills 3, 4 and 5 which are critical, on-demand skills in competitive play. Gating them behind a 3.5-4.0 second global cooldown is not fun. Using Unravel still gates them behind an addition key-press and associate skilled activation cooldown. > > > > > > > > > > > > If dual-attunement is so freaking great, then it using a single-attunement F5 stance shouldn't provide a competitive advantage. You lose dual-attune skills which should be a serious disadvantage since those are one of the profession-defining mechanics (as you yourself quoted from ANet earlier in this discussion). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except you want ANet to add something to the class baseline where **it will actually affect the class as well as the balancing of the class**, so yes it will affect me and everyone else not just the period if it was implemented but for the rest of the games lifespan. Skills will be left in their poor state _because you can just dual attune if you need to_ traits will be reduced in strength _because you can just dual attune if you need to_. > > > > > > > > > > As much as I hate that ANet didn’t listen to the feedback concerning the swords clunky nature for the sake of this thread I am very glad they ignore the ill thought out half baked ideas people come up with without thinking through the further implications it has. Giving baseline unravel would not fix the issues with weaver, it would be putting a band aid over it and the mantra above would be used time and time again to prevent meaningful changes being made to the class to get it out of this clunky rut it is in. > > > > > > > > You're making an assumption that the change would require a rebalance of the class. I don't think that's the case. Maybe you can give an example of a **required** rebalance as a result of adding F5 for single attunement switching. That example of course requires some justification, something more than "because I said so". > > > > > > > > You never mentioned balance as a concern in your original posts -- you were more focused on "that's not how weaver is supposed to be played". It's ok if you're switching your position, I just want to make sure your primary concern is balance -- otherwise we're just arguing for the sake of arguing. I don't like chasing red-herrings. > > > > > > You are asking for an option to be added baseline to the elite spec, this would affect balance **because every single balance decision would have to take into account being able to instantly switch to your defensive skills on a whim and the use of this F5 mechanic**. I didn’t think this sort of blatantly obvious thought process needed explaining because it’s so blatantly obvious and yet here I am having to explain it. It’s like how you’re trying to convince Sephiroth that changing the elite spec at its fundamental level for everyone won’t affect everyone, it’s just complete short sightedness on your part and show how little thought you’re putting into it and the wider implications, without mentioning how you’re now trying to convince us that fire isn’t hot. > > > > > > My original point was that the design of the class is without this F5 mechanic and that is how it should stay, any issues people have with the way that the class works should have been addressed while staying true to the design of the class. You chose to completely ignore what I said about how you can either slot unravel, run fresh air, arcana, run the elite to attune faster and get skills faster. Could also just not run weaver, doesn’t seem like you get it so probably for the best. > > > > I guess when I said offer something more than "because I said so" was asking too much. At this point your argument is switching to ad hominem which nobody appreciates. > > > > Here's a rehash of what I'm saying... again: > > > > * F5 does nothing more than what base ele already does. Nobody said the attunements had to remain on 3.5-4.0 second cooldown when using F5 for single attunements. > > * In single attunement, you lose access to dual-skills which by the developer accounts should be a loss, downgrade, reduction in power, fill in the blank. > > * You can already fully attune with Weaver, so the class is balanced around having a full attunement possible. > > * Lastly, a utility already allows this with the restriction of cooldown. > > * Not using F5 is exactly what you have today -- don't like it, don't use it > > > > I gave you a reason in bold, it wasn’t just because I say so. > > Your proposal isn’t to add an option that you can simply unpick, your proposal is to add a function that will always be there, an F5 button to the class where there would be no way to not pick it. Currently if you want to fully attune it has an opportunity/cost associated with it. You either have to wait 4-3.5s, slot unravel or utilise a trait like fresh air to instantly swap to air on crits. > > Your suggestion does not allow to simply not have this option, you make no provision to not have it as a part of the elite spec like the current options. Therefore whenever someone says, like Ars Valde, that defensive skills don’t have immediate access the response will be oh yes they do, use your F5 to fully attune, don’t waste your F5 etc. So instead of getting the improvements to the elite spec that it needs (namely increased barrier generation which is uncorruptable) it will be simply balanced by the class and the wider power of the skills not the mechanics at play of 4s before defences become available. Instead of being allowed to generate and maintain a 2-3k barrier through buffing of barrier generation to blunt spikes of damage you’ll be told to use F5 and obsidian flesh same with every single aspect, you’ll be told to use Xoffhand and simply fully attune with F5 when needed. > > There’s no point continuing this discussion after this, I put in bold a reason why balance would be affected but you chose to completely ignore it just like every point everyone else has raised. You keep ignoring the fact your option isn’t optional and remain blind to that point citing “just don’t use it” as if people would have the option to not have an F5, which they wouldn’t. I hope for everyone’s sake ANet never listen to you. I'm not ignoring your points... they just don't make sense honestly. Here's what you wrote in bold: **"this would affect balance because every single balance decision would have to take into account being able to instantly switch to your defensive skills on a whim and the use of this F5 mechanic."** It doesn't make sense because the base elementalist can already do this (instantly switch to defensive skills). The weaver can already do this too using the utility. So aren't the skills already balanced for this? All the Weaver's weapon skills are **exactly** the same as base Elementalist, with the addition of 6 dual skills. You can ignore the 6 dual skills because you clearly can't activate them in a single attunement -- so no balance required for those. That means a weaver with "single attunement" is really the **EXACT** same thing as core elementalist. Lastly, I don't understand your position that having F5 means players can't ignore it. You have a utility skill that does what I'm proposing for F5, but you currently ignore it correct? Anyway, that is why I don't understand your position on this regarding balance and play style. **This F5 proposal is just a "sub-set" of what Weaver already is** -- nothing more, nothing less. EDIT: When I said give something specific (the exact word was justification), I meant please point out an existing Weaver trait, Elementalist trait, dual-skill, or any skill that becomes overpowered by implementing the F5 mechanic. When you read your statement in bold you can see it's really not specific. It's just a generic "everything must be balanced"... which is true for every part of GW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimreaper.5370 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 If Unravel allowed you to swap *one* time with out triggering global cd I think it would be in a really good spot. If it became an f5 I'd be happy as well ofc ^.^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 You can put me down for wanting unravel to be f5. I just got through my first day of fractals on the weaver, and bloody hell is it difficult. The dual attunement isn't a blessing. It's a curse. At any point, you are effectively locked out of 3 of your 5 weapon skills. You can't quickly swap to earth for magnetic aura then water for cleansing rain. You have to go earth, wait 4 seconds, go earth again, use magnet aura, wait 4 seconds, go water, wait 4 seconds, go water again, use healing rain, wait 4 seconds, swap to fire, wait 4 seconds, continue DPS rotation. It is like pulling teeth. In spite of it's massive damage, the staff weaver is effectively impotent. It can't use any of those niche utilities that the elementalist goes for. No condi cleanse, no emergency heals, no CC, no auras, no immobilize or impassable barriers. Either it is too late to use these skills, or you sit in a particular attunement waiting for things to go wrong while contributing very little to the group. The fact that they made a utility skill who's sole purpose is to solve this problem means that, on some level, Anet knew the inherent problems with the dual attunement system. But, utility space is tight, and in spite of being useful we have no room for unravel on our bars. But if it were an f skill, then the versatility and user friendliness of the Weaver would skyrocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broski.3294 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Just hit the element you want twice in a row. You have reduced element swapping as weaver anyways so you already have a way of getting to what you're asking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juno.1840 Posted October 5, 2017 Author Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @Broski.3294 said: > Just hit the element you want twice in a row. You have reduced element swapping as weaver anyways so you already have a way of getting to what you're asking for. Did you read @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493"'s post fully? Have you played Weaver? Let me know how pressing "twice in a row" goes for you when you want skills 3, 4, 5 at that exact moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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