[SUGGESTION] Give Weaver F5 skill that...

[TwilightSoul.9048]

> @Kyon.9735 said:

> Unpopular opinion: Weaver is not meant to be played as reactive as base Ele/Tempest is.

>

> You know that you have 4s base CD for attunement swapping so you should always take in mind that you should never put your self in a position where you will need defensive weapon skills but not have it prepared. This is basically the skill cap for Weaver, skilled players will always prepare the proper attunements to be weaved before fully committing an action.

>

> I play Sw/D and I'm having a hard time adjusting too so I usually slot in Twist of Fate as it's very useful when you get jumped. It has evasion frames and superspeed which would let you reposition yourself and it also buys time for your attunement CD so you can LF away or chain Riptide/Earthen Vortex. If it's still enough, slot in Mist Form as another panic button until you get the hang of it.

>

> From my experience, the glaring problem lies with Sword's lack of damage pressure. You're usually at the losing end if you decide to trade blows which would usually force you to go defensive first before your target does.

 

But in a zergfight it is not your decision weather a fight turns to your advantage or not, you cannot prepare for all situations - a teamfight that looks incredibly promising might turn into a situation where you - against all odds - have to use a defensive skill. It's not a skillcap, you have to be able to act AND react, otherwise you are useless in any kind of PvP scenario. Yes to some extend you can predict how a fight unravels (see what I did there?) but every fight that you can predict to an extend where you can just follow a set rotation is not an actual fight anyway, it's just punching a pinata. And Yes Weaver is incredibly strong when it comes to punching pinatas - but not very strong in any other scenario. I have fought many Weavers in WvW now, mostly sword/x, some scepter/x and very few staff weaver, none of them where even remotly dangerous - the good ones where annoying, the bad ones where barely distinguishable from ambient creatures and the annoying ones where good at running away. None of them where threatening. If your goal is to pick on new players then yes, you can easily predict them and act acordingly.

Even the most skilled player cannot possibly now how a fight will turn out to be, you can't expect to know weather you'll be able to cast a clear meteor shower or need a healing rain prior to the engagement. It's not a skillcap its a handicap.

I'm sure it's not as bad with Sword since one handed weapons aren't very heavily focused on 4&5 skillslot but with staff it's just terrible.

[juno.1840]

> @TwilightSoul.9048 said:

> > @Kyon.9735 said:

> > Unpopular opinion: Weaver is not meant to be played as reactive as base Ele/Tempest is.

> >

> > You know that you have 4s base CD for attunement swapping so you should always take in mind that you should never put your self in a position where you will need defensive weapon skills but not have it prepared. This is basically the skill cap for Weaver, skilled players will always prepare the proper attunements to be weaved before fully committing an action.

> >

> > I play Sw/D and I'm having a hard time adjusting too so I usually slot in Twist of Fate as it's very useful when you get jumped. It has evasion frames and superspeed which would let you reposition yourself and it also buys time for your attunement CD so you can LF away or chain Riptide/Earthen Vortex. If it's still enough, slot in Mist Form as another panic button until you get the hang of it.

> >

> > From my experience, the glaring problem lies with Sword's lack of damage pressure. You're usually at the losing end if you decide to trade blows which would usually force you to go defensive first before your target does.

>

> But in a zergfight it is not your decision weather a fight turns to your advantage or not, you cannot prepare for all situations - a teamfight that looks incredibly promising might turn into a situation where you - against all odds - have to use a defensive skill. It's not a skillcap, you have to be able to act AND react, otherwise you are useless in any kind of PvP scenario. Yes to some extend you can predict how a fight unravels (see what I did there?) but every fight that you can predict to an extend where you can just follow a set rotation is not an actual fight anyway, it's just punching a pinata. And Yes Weaver is incredibly strong when it comes to punching pinatas - but not very strong in any other scenario. I have fought many Weavers in WvW now, mostly sword/x, some scepter/x and very few staff weaver, none of them where even remotly dangerous - the good ones where annoying, the bad ones where barely distinguishable from ambient creatures and the annoying ones where good at running away. None of them where threatening. If your goal is to pick on new players then yes, you can easily predict them and act acordingly.

> Even the most skilled player cannot possibly now how a fight will turn out to be, you can't expect to know weather you'll be able to cast a clear meteor shower or need a healing rain prior to the engagement. It's not a skillcap its a handicap.

> I'm sure it's not as bad with Sword since one handed weapons aren't very heavily focused on 4&5 skillslot but with staff it's just terrible.

 

Totally agree, but some players equate "pressing more buttons" with "I'm having more fun". Although I'm not seeing the reward for the extra work involved.

 

The beauty of the F5 proposal is you could still do the button mashing if you wanted to. If using a semi-permanent "Unravel" becomes more powerful than using Weaver as currently designed, what does that say about the current design of Weaver?

 

Unfortunately Karl has stated that F5 was already considered and tossed out. I think trying to get a weaver change is like calling someone's baby ugly... even if the baby is actually ugly, the parent's don't want to hear it. Unlike a baby, you can actually change Weaver... it's just source code :).

 

 

[TwilightSoul.9048]

> Unfortunately Karl has stated that F5 was already considered and tossed out. I think trying to get a weaver change is like calling someone's baby ugly... even if the baby is actually ugly, the parent's don't want to hear it. Unlike a baby, you can actually change Weaver... it's just source code :).

 

It doesn't neccessarily have to be an F5, there are other solutions to the Problems with weaver, making Unravel an F5 is just one of them.

I can see why they're beeing careful with weaver qT's benchmark on stationary golems may not represent a realistic situation but they do showcase potential. Unfortunatly right now we can barely make any use of that potential which is why, in my opinion, changes are neccessary. I'm pretty sure we can all agree that Unravel is absolutely garbage as it is - so that's basically a free slot to design a new interesting stance for weaver, something that we can actually make use of.

And the other thing is the "Staff-Problem" Staff is so reliant on it's 4&5 Abilities that 4s waiting time for dual attunement (without arcana) is absolutely crushing any sort of potential. There have already been many suggestions in this thread and throughout the forum and I sincerely hope that Anet is atleast testing them internally and I'm hoping for feedback.

I absolutely understand why they're beeing careful with Weaver right now I just hope they aren't beeing too careful.

 

As it stands right now Tempest is vastly supperior to me in almost every situation, the only thing that I'm still looking forward to try is FA Scepter/x Weaver in PvE/Fractals, that might be fun but it'll require quite some practicing to get timings and rotations right.

[juno.1840]

> @TwilightSoul.9048 said:

> As it stands right now Tempest is vastly supperior to me in almost every situation, the only thing that I'm still looking forward to try is FA Scepter/x Weaver in PvE/Fractals, that might be fun but it'll require quite some practicing to get timings and rotations right.

 

I was playing FA scepter just the other day, trying to find something enjoyable with Weaver. Unfortunately the GCD of the attunements when switching back to air is a deal-breaker. You can get to air on a crit, but you cannot get out of air for 3.5-4.0 seconds. It feels gimped. Also FA is really a power build and the Weaver GM power trait requires single attunement which is gone as soon as you switch out of air and back. I'm not sure double-pumping air gives another lightning strike.

 

[TwilightSoul.9048]

That was my thought, going in air twice for double lightning strike and the 10% boost but I don't know either if that even works, I'll play around with that tomorrow. I was thinking about how you could double attune to air and then pump out all dual skills with air before going back to full air or something like that unfortunatly most scepter dualskills don't seem to be very strong. Fire/Air Plasma beem seems good but Water/Air looks terrible to me, Earth/Air dmg is meh but it's a cc. So I'm not sure how that is gonna work out but I'll give it a try :)

[Kyon.9735]

> @TwilightSoul.9048 said:

> > @Kyon.9735 said:

> > Unpopular opinion: Weaver is not meant to be played as reactive as base Ele/Tempest is.

> >

> > You know that you have 4s base CD for attunement swapping so you should always take in mind that you should never put your self in a position where you will need defensive weapon skills but not have it prepared. This is basically the skill cap for Weaver, skilled players will always prepare the proper attunements to be weaved before fully committing an action.

> >

> > I play Sw/D and I'm having a hard time adjusting too so I usually slot in Twist of Fate as it's very useful when you get jumped. It has evasion frames and superspeed which would let you reposition yourself and it also buys time for your attunement CD so you can LF away or chain Riptide/Earthen Vortex. If it's still enough, slot in Mist Form as another panic button until you get the hang of it.

> >

> > From my experience, the glaring problem lies with Sword's lack of damage pressure. You're usually at the losing end if you decide to trade blows which would usually force you to go defensive first before your target does.

>

> But in a zergfight it is not your decision weather a fight turns to your advantage or not, you cannot prepare for all situations - a teamfight that looks incredibly promising might turn into a situation where you - against all odds - have to use a defensive skill. It's not a skillcap, you have to be able to act AND react, otherwise you are useless in any kind of PvP scenario. Yes to some extend you can predict how a fight unravels (see what I did there?) but every fight that you can predict to an extend where you can just follow a set rotation is not an actual fight anyway, it's just punching a pinata. And Yes Weaver is incredibly strong when it comes to punching pinatas - but not very strong in any other scenario. I have fought many Weavers in WvW now, mostly sword/x, some scepter/x and very few staff weaver, none of them where even remotly dangerous - the good ones where annoying, the bad ones where barely distinguishable from ambient creatures and the annoying ones where good at running away. None of them where threatening. If your goal is to pick on new players then yes, you can easily predict them and act acordingly.

> Even the most skilled player cannot possibly now how a fight will turn out to be, you can't expect to know weather you'll be able to cast a clear meteor shower or need a healing rain prior to the engagement. It's not a skillcap its a handicap.

> I'm sure it's not as bad with Sword since one handed weapons aren't very heavily focused on 4&5 skillslot but with staff it's just terrible.

 

Well, Karl already made statements:

 

> @juno.1840 said:

> I guess we can close down this discussion. Response from @"Karl McLain.5604" :

>

> > We had considered this at one point early on, but decided not to go with it. The weaver’s mechanic and trade offs are designed with needing to go through main-hand to off hand. We left Unravel as a unique utility option for the purpose of improving rotations or providing instant access to needed weapon skills, but did not want to embed it into the core of the specialization.

>

> Source: [reddit](

"https://reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/74qjlh/path_of_fire_devs_here_ask_us_anything/do0is4r/?context=3")

>

>

 

Yes, based from that I believe it is a skill cap and Weaver was designed that way. Supposedly, Weaver is meant to out-pressure an opponent and the trade off was the need to go through main hand to off hand. However, that isn't happening right now because Weaver (especially sword) clearly lacks the damage pressure which leads them the need to play more defensively. Anet also admitted that themselves.

 

Let's say Weaver gets Unravel as an F5 skill and Anet manages to bring up the damage pressure to the level they originally envisioned it to be, then there's no trade off at all. Suddenly you get a specialization which deals great damage and is very good defensively. You get higher DPS with instant access to defensive weapon skills but what's the tradeoff? Look at SB, it's a class that does too well defensively and offensively and is already labeled as overtuned. Weaver will definitely get nerfed on its damage potential to balance out its access to defensive skills with unravel F5. This is not supposed to happen because Weaver was meant to be a DPS spec. You already said it yourself, Weavers right now are only annoying, I say it's because they weren't able to deal any pressure to you.

 

No offense here but I think people are asking Anet to let Weaver be played like a Tempest while having better DPS - basically a Tempest 2.0. Also, if people insist on playing Staff in WvW because #4 and #5 skills are really good, then you are not supposed be playing Weaver because its class mechanics doesn't let it play that way. Or you could always just trade off one utility skill for Unravel. Or better yet, stop playing the spec contrary to its design. Go play Tempest instead probably.

 

TL;DR - Let's wait for the buffs and hope they're good DPS-wise. I think we really can't judge the spec right now because it's not doing what it's supposed to do (out pressure opponents) thus we can't properly see the trade offs as a whole picture.

 

P.S - Get Twist of Fate, Lightning Flash, and Mist Form. Not all of Elementalists' defensive options are on weapon skills. These skills are also reactive, people are talking like all Eles have are weapon skills.

[IonoI.3956]

Keep in mind that this *might* be a dps buff to weaver, which is already too high imo. Attuning to a single element triggers the Elements of Rage buff, and having f5 would allow you to skip the attune cooldown and trigger the buff more often, without giving up a util slot. I think that works out to 100% Elements of Rage uptime if you don't delay anything.

[Coldtart.4785]

> @Kyon.9735 said:

> Let's say Weaver gets Unravel as an F5 skill and Anet manages to bring up the damage pressure to the level they originally envisioned it to be, then there's no trade off at all. Suddenly you get a specialization which deals great damage and is very good defensively. You get higher DPS with instant access to defensive weapon skills but what's the tradeoff?

 

 

If I run a sc/f build I can already get higher damage with instant access to defensive weapon skills by not using weaver. You keep talking about trade-offs but there is no trade-off in weaver. The dual element system, as it is currently implemented, is a strict downgrade from the system core ele has. Not only does the 4s gcd slow down play to a molasses pace (shouldn't a damage spec be increasing the pace, not decreasing it?) but it highly telegraphs a lot of your skills. If you swap to earth as a weaver, you've just told your opponent that you'll have obsidian flesh ready in 4 seconds. No amount of planning ahead is going to help when you have to tell your enemies the next step of your plan in advance.

[Rangerdeity.5847]

weaver doenst need to use f5 they have the weapon swap hotkey that doenst do anything for them. it could easily toggle weaver. honestly how anet has yet to see this is beyond me.

[Hana.8143]

So all you’re asking is « Can we stop playing weaver and stick to core ele ? »

Then it’s a « no »

 

There are pretty good rotations with the weaver. In WvW you can have access to the good dual attacks while still being able to survive and have access to water fields and retreat / cc.

 

It took me some time to find out a good rotation that doesn’t fall behind the old ones mainly in WvW. And no, I don’t sacrifice the magnetic aura, and I swap attunement only 4 times so I can get meteor show pretty much every rotation.

Just keep trying !

[juno.1840]

One aspect that would help is move the dual-skill to F5. Now you can have access to skill-3 regardless of attunement combination. That helps eliminate the gating of at least one skill and makes some of the rotations less complicated.

 

For example, how many players have used the single-attunement sword-3 skills? Air, Earth, and Fire #3 are all very good. Good enough to force a rotation through single attunement is a different question.

 

The master trait with +condi power/duration benefits from dual attunement only which discourages rotation through single attunements. However, the single attunement skills do apply a hefty amount of conditions.

 

It would be an overall power boost to give dual attunements access to both the dual-skill and the single-skill. That's a straight up reward for dual.

[TwilightSoul.9048]

> @Hana.8143 said:

> So all you’re asking is « Can we stop playing weaver and stick to core ele ? »

> Then it’s a « no »

>

> There are pretty good rotations with the weaver. In WvW you can have access to the good dual attacks while still being able to survive and have access to water fields and retreat / cc.

>

> It took me some time to find out a good rotation that doesn’t fall behind the old ones mainly in WvW. And no, I don’t sacrifice the magnetic aura, and I swap attunement only 4 times so I can get meteor show pretty much every rotation.

> Just keep trying !

 

And how do you initiate?

Usually a good initiation would be Static Field -> Meteor Shower/Healing Rain + Freezing Field and as Weaver you can do neither one.

The best rotation I had so far was: Start with Earth/Air:

Inititate with Static Field or harass with Piledriver from afar

follow up with Earth 2 then switch to Water/Earth to use the Dual Skill, from there you can get to Healing Rain + Freezing Field if neccessary or proceed to slowly switch to x/fire for meteor shower (Dual Water/Earth is probably the best substitute for Meteor Shower but if you're trying to substitute Meteor Shower in an aggressive opener then you're doing something wrong, that's like advancing with an Aircraft Carrier to throw waterballoons on your enemies)

 

The huge problem is: It's not very threatening when compared to everything core ele & tempest can do with staff + you're easily stuck on an attunement that does nothing since most of the important skills are on 4 & 5 which leaves you unable to react often times.

 

I tried to make it work because I think the dual skills are a great addition and give a lot more options but they just aren't worth sacrificing 4&5 - it just takes way too long to get from one good skill (4/5) to another.

 

As for Scepter/x FA Builds, since the dual skill overrides the 3rd spell (most notably Phoenix), I don't feel like it's worth it either, you'll never want to spend 4s on fire just to use Phoenix since you'd rather switch back and forth with Air and the Dual Skills don't really make up for loosing Phoenix (and Overload when compared to Tempest)

 

In conclusion: Weaver only seems to barely work with sword and even that build is a joke.

Unless you're fighting Pinatas, in that case Staff Weaver is insane, as long as the Pinata doesn't move, doesn't do anything in fact and is big enough.

 

Everyone who thinks Weaver is good in WvW needs to clean his fangirl/boy goggles. I love the concept of weaver with his dualskill and everything, it just doesn't work out right now and I'm sure we'll be seeing some changes.

[TwilightSoul.9048]

EDIT: @Hana.8143

Stumbled upon your WVW Weaver Rotation thread with your video, you, quite nicely, display the whole issue.

In your rotation you open up with Fire/Air which is a great Aggressive opening but whenever you find yourself in a situation where you press static field just to realize that your opposing zerg had the better reactions and is already on top of your zerg you are quite unable to properly react. You'd have to pop unravel to gain access to your Healing Rain + Freezing Field and then you have to either Pop another Unravel to get back to full Fire for pressure or you go back into air for the Water/Air Dual skill. And then suddenly your zerg is overwhelmed and you have to turn - you used up all your Unravel charges and thus you're unable to place a stone wall (earth 4) or gain magnetic aura - and you're dead.

I'm sure, whenever everything is going acording to plan Weaver is a lot stronger then Tempest or Core Ele but in WvW that's not gonna be the case most of the time.

Your Build is pretty much the same that I've been running, except I didn't take unravel since I basicaly use it twice just to be stuck somewhere else, it just prolongs the original Weaver problem, it doesn't solve it. Maybe if it had 3 charges and an additional effect like: Gain Barrier when you fully attune, or something like that.

 

EDIT2: Whoops, meant to edit my previous post, sorry

EDIT3: Just realized that Unravel has 5s Cooldown so 3 charges would still be bad

[caveman.5840]

i feel like s/d weaver needs access to a reflect that would be a much more useful utility skill than unravel. unravel just seems like a waste of a utility slot to me and would be much better if it was moved as a f5 skill

 

and I wish shearing edge and natural frenzy had 900 range instead of only 600

[Jski.6180]

Anet realty needs to sit down and look at what they did for tempest and use that as a temple for how they should fix weaver. Tempest dose not need to use it overloads but it gets a lot of rewards for using them. Weaver must use its duel swap effects with next to no rewards. Simply put weaver only harms it self with only passive effects making up for running weaver.

 

What needs to be done is letting the weaver have a better chose to how to play moment to moment and not build to build. Tempest can play like a core ele if they want to at any moment THIS is the benchmark for elite spec on ele unless they changes it some how. Any thing less is a worthless line to run.

[juno.1840]

Lots of good ideas I've seen here that are variations on the original proposal. I'll add these to the OP and hopefully an ANet Developer will actually read it... maybe.

 

* Have F5 switch main/off hand attunements

* Have F5 be the dual skill, instead of taking slot 3

* Have F5 be the Unravel Skill (same cooldown, ammo count, ammo recharge, duration, etc). In other words, put Unravel utility onto F5.

 

Did I miss anything related to F5?

 

 

[TwilightSoul.9048]

> @juno.1840 said:

> Lots of good ideas I've seen here that are variations on the original proposal. I'll add these to the OP and hopefully an ANet Developer will actually read it... maybe.

>

> * Have F5 switch main/off hand attunements

> * Have F5 be the dual skill, instead of taking slot 3

> * Have F5 be the Unravel Skill (same cooldown, ammo count, ammo recharge, duration, etc). In other words, put Unravel utility onto F5.

>

> Did I miss anything related to F5?

 

No but there are more options besides adding an F5 Ability

* Letting us swap "Hands" with Weapon swap - Fire/Air -> Air/Fire via Weapon Swap

* Reduced CD on Attunements that you're currently attuned to (Enables faster switching between hands & faster Dual Attunements)

* and I believe there were evenmore suggestions but I don't remember them right now..

[juno.1840]

> @TwilightSoul.9048 said:

> > @juno.1840 said:

> > Lots of good ideas I've seen here that are variations on the original proposal. I'll add these to the OP and hopefully an ANet Developer will actually read it... maybe.

> >

> > * Have F5 switch main/off hand attunements

> > * Have F5 be the dual skill, instead of taking slot 3

> > * Have F5 be the Unravel Skill (same cooldown, ammo count, ammo recharge, duration, etc). In other words, put Unravel utility onto F5.

> >

> > Did I miss anything related to F5?

>

> No but there are more options besides adding an F5 Ability

> * Letting us swap "Hands" with Weapon swap - Fire/Air -> Air/Fire via Weapon Swap

> * Reduced CD on Attunements that you're currently attuned to (Enables faster switching between hands & faster Dual Attunements)

> * and I believe there were evenmore suggestions but I don't remember them right now..

 

Understood, but this topic is about F5... go F5 or go home (jk, make another topic, you don't have to go home).

[MyPuppy.8970]

What weaver really needs is a proper utility that is useful for the class mechanic. A utility that takes advantage of dual skills and dual attunement, not to bypass them. Unravel only shows the lack of developper's confidence in their own creation. I wish they had committed to the fullest and not made unravel, there wouldn't be so much debate on an F5 ability.

[MKS MoonBeast.5370]

I think F5 for Unravel is impossible for us, but please buff dual skills, most of them are low damage, hard to land, or just waste time to cast, even auto attack are better than that. Please don't make dual skills worse than original #3.

[TwilightSoul.9048]

> @juno.1840 said:

> > @TwilightSoul.9048 said:

> > > @juno.1840 said:

> > > Lots of good ideas I've seen here that are variations on the original proposal. I'll add these to the OP and hopefully an ANet Developer will actually read it... maybe.

> > >

> > > * Have F5 switch main/off hand attunements

> > > * Have F5 be the dual skill, instead of taking slot 3

> > > * Have F5 be the Unravel Skill (same cooldown, ammo count, ammo recharge, duration, etc). In other words, put Unravel utility onto F5.

> > >

> > > Did I miss anything related to F5?

> >

> > No but there are more options besides adding an F5 Ability

> > * Letting us swap "Hands" with Weapon swap - Fire/Air -> Air/Fire via Weapon Swap

> > * Reduced CD on Attunements that you're currently attuned to (Enables faster switching between hands & faster Dual Attunements)

> > * and I believe there were evenmore suggestions but I don't remember them right now..

>

> Understood, but this topic is about F5... go F5 or go home (jk, make another topic, you don't have to go home).

 

There's already a thread about other suggestions, unfortunatly it's not very popular since everyone is discussing the F5 thing here :P

I think we'd do best if we don't focus too much on one specific solution when there are actually a lot more. Maybe I'll open a new thread later where we can collect suggestions in one place instead of having to gather them from all over the forum..

 

But yes, this thread is about F5, I think I've seen someone suggest somewhere that we could have an F5 that temporarily reduces all Attunement Cooldowns to 1s. Personally I don't like that one.

[Vova.2640]

I agree on one thing.

Maybe weaver wouldn't be as bad if the dual skills (at least on staff) weren't so godawful.

 

Fire + water needs to be reworked entirely. Pathetic dmg. Even more pathetic healing with almost no scaling off healing power (+30 heal from 120 heal power...)

Fire + air dual needs to be faster and bigger.

Fire + earth needs to be reworked. Pathetic dmg.

Water + air I dont even know wtf this is supposed to be. Probably the most useless skill in the game.

Water + earth needs to be reworked. Make this one defensive at least.

Air + earth is ok dmg and thats about it.

Also what is a 378 hp barrier going to do for me????? that number is a joke LOL.

 

Also those abilities offer basically zero utility while Air 3 is a knockback, water 3 is a heal and earth 3 is a reflect, all of which are useful.

The design on those skills is just so bad.

 

Pretty much same goes for the healing, utility and elite skills on Weaver. All them are just bad and offer nothing useful.

 

[sephiroth.4217]

Kyon gets it, we need those damage buffs and I look forward to the ones involving sword :heart:

 

I'm happy we got responses on the subject from a Dev in regards to f5.

[MyPuppy.8970]

I wonder. According to the devs weaver was supposed to be dangerous at melee but yet it was released as is. I want to play like a gazelle.

[Garr.1823]

I would prefer some GM trait, that will undo the weaver mechanic except the dual skills.

So, if I switch to fire from earth - I would have 12 and 4 5 - fire, but 3 - dual fire/earth skill.