The Next Elite Spec; What Is Engineer Missing?

[Dace.8173]

> @"Atmaweapon.7345" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > @"Atmaweapon.7345" said:

> > > I guess I'll have to clarify some of the ideas I had with the Jetpack Engineer:

> > >

> > > 1) The Jetpack is meant to be a positioning tool rather than a "mode" the way Photon Forge is.

> > > 2) You can activate spear skills immediately after using dodge rolls so you never actually have to go into the air, but retain the flavor of using a jetpack.

> > >

> > > 3) Most of the Bow type weapon skills would function like arrow-carts or Barrage in that they're channeled AoE attacks that fire straight up and persist for a moment rather than projectiles. Attack abilities would be stuff like a rain of explosive arrows, while supportive abilities could be an Elixir Rain. The Weather seeding concept lets the Engineer perform attacks differently from an Elementalist, for example they could fire bomb arrows that freeze in the air and rain down as icicles which then detonate after delay.

> > > 4) The Bow would primarily be a support weapon, but packs good sustained power damage. The auto-attack would basically be Spatial Surge with an AoE rather than an arcing effect. All of the support abilities would be non-projectile effects.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > If all you have to do is dodge to gain access to the spear then what you are really doing is giving the Elite two weapons for the price of one. There wouldn't be much point to the jetpack mechanic if you can get most of the same effect simply by dodging. Actually, there is no point to a jetpack if you don't need to go into the air. The lack of not having to go into the air pretty much kills any flavor it has and would be viewed as nothing more as a cheap gimmick.

> >

> > The arrow thing is just unbalanced. Arrow cart works because it's a stationary device that can be destroyed. Ranger and Dragonhunter only get one such attack and that attack roots them in place, leaving them vulnerable. One would be fine, an entire weapon of such effects would not be balanced, at all. The balance issues get worse when you have to dodge to gain access to these spear skills. The actual arrows also come off as too strong.

>

> There’s a major disconnect in expectations here, I guess I could have called the jetpack a rocket. Your expectation seems to be that the jetpack is like one of those games where its only purpose is to bob you up and down in the air. My thinking actually comes from a game series called rocket knight where your jetpack is like an omnidirectional dash. There’s a certain charm to having a plethora of movement options bound by 1 resource (Endurance in this case) and having multiple viable ways to use a jetpack depending on the situation is part of the charm of using a jetpack as opposed to say, a levitation device. The main purpose of the jetpack is to blast you around at blindingly fast speeds; if the main purpose of the jetpack was just to hover, it’d just be a glorified glider.

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> As for a free second weapon, it’s much more limited than say, Druid or Holo.

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> Finally, for the bow, not every skill is going to be a targeted aoe, When say “good sustained dps” I mean that the auto-attack isn’t garbage like Rifle, requiring you to run a another kit (I mean for the shortbow to compliment the Med kit in a support setup). When I compare it to an arrowcart it’s obviously not going to be anywhere near that size of that AoE, especially on the offensive attacks. The exploding icicle arrows sounds hideously OP because it sounds cool, but in reality it would look like this:

> -Deal damage in an area. After a delay, deal damage again and chill in that area.

>

> Plenty of professions have non-projectile ranged attacks that hit rather hard. The fact that it looks like Barrage doesn’t mean it’ll be anywhere as effective.

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I understood what you meant by jetpack, which is why I called it out as basically trying to sneak in two weapons for one Elite. Bobbing up and down in the air isn't enough of a justification, mechanically, for an entirely new set of weapon skills on top of the new weapon you already get. There isn't much point to a jetpack mechanic that is basically dodging. If changes in movement options were enough to justify a brand new set of weapons the Daredevil and Mirage would have gotten them too as both of those are movement based professions that work off of positioning and dodges. No matter how you limit it, though, you are still giving them a free second weapon.

 

People really need to stop giving Rifle so much grief. It actually is a solid weapon. Using the Rifle does not require you to run another kit. In the realm of firearms, it's the pistols that are underwhelming. Our rifle gives us a nice set of attacks. Also, the exploding icicle doesn't sound OP because it sounds cool, I don't think it sounds cool in the least, it's OP because you have it doing a bunch of different things. First, it arches into the air to avoid being reflected, then it comes down as a bunch of icicles, then it explodes. Oh, and it's a bomb arrow. And it also adds a condition. If I thought it sounded it cool I might have ignored it being an overpowered set of abilities. Your proposed arrow shot is better than Mortar skill, and that's an elite skill.

[Atmaweapon.7345]

The theoretical icicle attack is:

-Deal damage in an area.

-After a period of time, enemies in the area take damage and are chilled.

 

All the fluff about bombs and stuff is to explain why it functions the way it does and how it differs from what an elementalist can do. Also Freeze grenades are as good/better than Endothermic blast so I don’t know what you’re getting at there with certain Mortar kit abilities being outclassed.

 

My point about Rifle damage was oriented towards PvE where Bomb autos deal 50% more dps than Hipshot.

 

Finally, the Spear suggestion was more of a way to add some fun and relevance to Underwater weapons. If the balance problem is literally equipping a second weapon, that part can be dropped easily and the spear can be an implied weapon.

 

[Atmaweapon.7345]

I want to say something about the Golemancer ideas flying around: I’m not against using a mech in some fashion and fulfilling the Iron Man fantasy, but I’m against it specifically being a Golem because Golems are magically animated constructs made out of stone. If anything I think Golemancer would take a page from Blish and work better a Necromancer spec where you bind your soul to a construct and puppeteer it while also being able to jump into it to protect yourself. Essentially, it’d be a reverse Soulbeast where your Deathshroud can act independently of you.

 

Approaching Engineer from a Mechrider perspective also opens up a lot of aesthetic possibilities over a stone golem. We have Watchknights and Steam creatures and tanks running around afterall.

[Dace.8173]

> @"Atmaweapon.7345" said:

> The theoretical icicle attack is:

> -Deal damage in an area.

> -After a period of time, enemies in the area take damage and are chilled.

>

> All the fluff about bombs and stuff is to explain why it functions the way it does and how it differs from what an elementalist can do. Also Freeze grenades are as good/better than Endothermic blast so I don’t know what you’re getting at there with certain Mortar kit abilities being outclassed.

>

> My point about Rifle damage was oriented towards PvE where Bomb autos deal 50% more dps than Hipshot.

>

> Finally, the Spear suggestion was more of a way to add some fun and relevance to Underwater weapons. If the balance problem is literally equipping a second weapon, that part can be dropped easily and the spear can be an implied weapon.

>

 

Dude, I completely understand the effect. You don't need to re-explain it or strip it of flavor. It doesn't change the nature of the critique. The only person caught up on the fluff is you. Your designed shot is better than Endothermic Shell, an elite skill. Endothermic Shell does everything you discuss, sans a delayed secondary chill and damage effect. And no, Freeze Grenades are not better than Endothermic Shell. The grenades do 178 damage to 5 targets in a radius of 120 with a range of 900. ES does 355 damage to 5 targets in a radius of 240 with a range of 1500 and drops and ice field. In noooooooooooooooo way are Freeze grenades better than that. If you think Freeze grenades are better, or even equal to, then I understand why you don't get that you designed an OP skill.

 

Also, why are you comparing the Rifle auto to an auto you get from a utility skill? Of course, it's stronger. It's a utility skill. It's also bombs. You are comparing a rifle shot to a bomb. There would be something seriously wrong if the Hip Shot was doing more damage. Also, underwater skills lack relevance because players don't really like underwater combat. Engineer doesn't even use spear. Still, an implied weapon is still a weapon. You're adding a different kind of weapon attack for dodging.

 

> @"Atmaweapon.7345" said:

> I want to say something about the Golemancer ideas flying around: I’m not against using a mech in some fashion and fulfilling the Iron Man fantasy, but I’m against it specifically being a Golem because Golems are magically animated constructs made out of stone. If anything I think Golemancer would take a page from Blish and work better a Necromancer spec where you bind your soul to a construct and puppeteer it while also being able to jump into it to protect yourself. Essentially, it’d be a reverse Soulbeast where your Deathshroud can act independently of you.

>

> Approaching Engineer from a Mechrider perspective also opens up a lot of aesthetic possibilities over a stone golem. We have Watchknights and Steam creatures and tanks running around afterall.

 

In this game Golems are machines. To claim that all it is is magic is to ignore the current lore surrounding golemancers. Don't confuse the material used to make them as how they work. They are controlled or were controlled, with joysticks and pads. The newer models are operated using a mind interface, that is not magic. The game lore references it as technology. If it were magically in nature it would say as much given the way in which magic and technology coexists.

[Atmaweapon.7345]

I was comparing Rifle auto to Bomb auto to highlight the disparity in dps in regards to how the Bow auto would be balanced to be higher sustained damage than the Rifle, yet weaker than bomb, but just good enough to be able to justify not running bomb kit in PvE because as a support you would already be running Medkit for healing (and probably elixir gun too.) As for the implied weapon... well yeah? If the Jetpack is the focal point of the elite, you should naturally have skills you can utilize with it to accentuate its importance.

 

You're also throwing around numbers without even taking into account that Freeze grenade hits 3 times and chills upfront. I didn't even post any numbers for the icicle attack and you're saying it's OP on the basis that it would ignore projectile hate and Mortar doesn't. AoE chill attacks that ignore projectile hate _already_ exist in the game.

[Dace.8173]

> @"Atmaweapon.7345" said:

> I was comparing Rifle auto to Bomb auto to highlight the disparity in dps in regards to how the Bow auto would be balanced to be higher sustained damage than the Rifle, yet weaker than bomb, but just good enough to be able to justify not running bomb kit in PvE because as a support you would already be running Medkit for healing (and probably elixir gun too.) As for the implied weapon... well yeah? If the Jetpack is the focal point of the elite, you should naturally have skills you can utilize with it to accentuate its importance.

>

> You're also throwing around numbers without even taking into account that Freeze grenade hits 3 times and chills upfront. I didn't even post any numbers for the icicle attack and you're saying it's OP on the basis that it would ignore projectile hate and Mortar doesn't. AoE chill attacks that ignore projectile hate _already_ exist in the game.

 

You're still comparing Rifle to a utility skill that is meant to be a bit stronger. Kit weapons were designed as a replacement for weapon swap. Making them strong is just sane game design. Comparing Rifle and Bomb auto to make a point about another hypothetical weapon is not going to work in your favor. The least of which you are trying to make a point about a weapon so that you don't have to run a certain set of kits. Those kits are all optional. Engineer can already do well in PvE without needing to run Medkit, Elixir Gun, and Bomb Kit. You are making this false assumption that these kits you are trying to not justify running are already not justified in running.

 

You also need to stop waffling on the jetpack. First, it's an important skill that is used to hover and position. Then it's just something you could do to gain access to these weapon traits but you know you could also just dodge instead. Then it's back to being a focal point. It's just a gimmick though.

 

Oh, and yes I tossed out numbers. You made a bad point about Freeze Grenades somehow being better than Endothermic Shell. Yeah, it tosses three grenades and does 178 in damage. If the damage was per grenade it would be written as Damage (3x) 178. Also, I already explained what made it OP. It's not that it avoids projectile damage (despite being an arrow) and Mortar doesn't. It's that it is multiple effects in one. Your effect is that it does it ignores projectile hate, does damage, then does damage again and chills. Mortar avoids projectile and does damage once. The Elite does damage once and you want to give a non-Elite skill most of what Mortar does in addition to being able to do a delayed damage attack. You want a bow that fires a bunch of barrage skills and those skills do damage and then those same skills do damage again and apply a condition. Oh, it will also do higher sustained damage than the rifle, but you know not more than the bomb. It's not really a good weapon design.