MUDse.7623 Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > ITT: too many people who played assassin's creed and take "nothing is true, everything is permitted" as their online gaming mantra. > > > > > > > > I go in to WvW to fight other players and NPCs for WvW XP, Reward track XP, complete dailies and collect loot. Your feelings are not anywhere on my list of concerns. > > > > > > > > If you are on the opposing team, I will do everything I can to defeat you, because in WvW all you are to me is walking WvW XP, Reward track XP, dailies completion and loot. > > > > > > > > - If you are fighting against two other members of my server, I will without a thought jump in to make it a 3v1 to not only help my team mates, but to collect WvW XP, track XP, dailies and loot. > > > > - If you are attacking any camp (mine or 3rd servers) and are going 1vs all the camp guards, I will single target you down, the if the camp is also hostile, I will kill the remaining guards and cap the camp myself - because WvW XP et al > > > > - If you flee a fight and fall off a cliff, get downed, and are self-healing to bring yourself back up....I DPS you down - because WvW XP et al > > > > > > > > You can choose to play WvW any way you want, but don't presume to have the authority to tell me or anyone else how they can or can't play the game, or what you designate as 'appropriate'. > > > > > > > > Because in a PvP game mode, if your primary goal isn't to defeat the enemy team in the most rapid and efficient method possible, then perhaps you're playing in the wrong game mode? > > > > > > > > ITT: too many people trying to bring safe spaces and trigger warnings into a players vs player video game. > > > > > > This isn't about safe spaces or trigger warnings, this is about basic video game ethics and respect of other players as human beings also playing a game not as enemy combatants fighting a war. This is not actually a war sorry to tell you. > > > > > > This is also not about my personal authority over you but about practicing the simple moral principle of "do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you." Also sometimes called the Law of Reciprocity. > > > > > > If you profess to having no sense of propriety or respect for me then neither I nor anyone else has any reason to treat you with any sort of propriety or respect either and the whole situation degenerates into this absurd "game is war" mentality where we all do anything we can think of to win including possibly things that aren't technically allowed but nonetheless hard to punish like spying and sabotage and arguably even hacking if it's not obvious or easy to police. Nothing is true everything is permitted. > > > > > > And for what? Some WXP? Some loot bags? Reward track XP? Shinies and fluff, God help you. > > > > me killing the opponent in whatever way is indeed not a real attack to that person, it is only pixels. that doesnt mean that i dont respect the other as a human being. we both agreed to play the game and the game has set rules. if i kill you within these rules you agreed upon by playing the game, then i think that is respectful. if i use a hack for that, then its not. people whispering me after i kill them, insulting me cause they didnt like the way i fight, that is not respectfull. because they choose to play a game with the options i use. > > i actually would prefer my opponents to use everything the game offers rather than blaming me for doing so. i just had today a funny guy, after i killed him he whispered me that i just can kill afk people because he was playing with just one hand as he had a phone call, i remembered his name he already once accused me of something similar. then he stated that my class can only kill noobs in a normal 1 vs 1. so we had a few very onesided duels that he lost. he then switched to any noob could kill anyone with such a lame build as mine and i personally cant be a decent player because i play such a lame build. he himself is ofc one of the best players and everyone knows it bla bla. i would have much prefered if he just would have used all the options in the game and defeat me if he really is the better player, but he didnt and instead just tried to attack me, my person emotionally in trying to make me feel bad, he didnt succeed but that is beside the point. i just attacked his toon, he attacked me. so who is disrespectful of the other person as a human being ? > > The nice thing about duels is that both participants can always openly stipulate terms ahead of the duel so that there's no doubt as to what is going to be considered fair play and what is not. > > The same can be done with any sort of arranged match like a GvG. > > The difference with an impromptu fight is that one side can show up thinking the agreed upon rules are one thing while the other can show up thinking something drastically different i.e one group thinks it's going to be a fight without pin snipe and one group shows up with the express intent of just focusing the pin down. > > So to reiterate and slightly expand my original post pin snipe is indeed quite effective and certainly a non-bannable tactic but it's boring because it kills fights. I also think that the thought process of "this game is actually a war so I'm going to do literally whatever it takes to win" can lead to some very dark places very quickly. I would highly advise against that sort of thinking. > > The consistent answer would be to say never under any circumstance just like what I've said with acs but I've been in the situation before with myself or a friend being pin sniped so I know the temptation to just say "go ahead and do it back." Still two wrongs do not make a right. while i do understand your point and there might be some mechanics/tactics where you will get a majority of players to agree that they are 'not fair' , it is really hard to tell unless you specifically agreed on them. the way one feels offended because of pin snipe , another feels offended by condition builds, by range builds, by anything that can run away etc. while you maybe dont pin snipe, he will see you if you play condi like you see people that pin snipe. if i respect every players wishes, what they deem fair, i best just join naked without weapons /traits etc. to not offend anyone. i mean can you make a full list of what rules i need to additionally follow aside from the games own rules, that i will be seen as fair ? by everyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueMelody.6398 Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > ITT: too many people who played assassin's creed and take "nothing is true, everything is permitted" as their online gaming mantra. > > > > > > > > > > I go in to WvW to fight other players and NPCs for WvW XP, Reward track XP, complete dailies and collect loot. Your feelings are not anywhere on my list of concerns. > > > > > > > > > > If you are on the opposing team, I will do everything I can to defeat you, because in WvW all you are to me is walking WvW XP, Reward track XP, dailies completion and loot. > > > > > > > > > > - If you are fighting against two other members of my server, I will without a thought jump in to make it a 3v1 to not only help my team mates, but to collect WvW XP, track XP, dailies and loot. > > > > > - If you are attacking any camp (mine or 3rd servers) and are going 1vs all the camp guards, I will single target you down, the if the camp is also hostile, I will kill the remaining guards and cap the camp myself - because WvW XP et al > > > > > - If you flee a fight and fall off a cliff, get downed, and are self-healing to bring yourself back up....I DPS you down - because WvW XP et al > > > > > > > > > > You can choose to play WvW any way you want, but don't presume to have the authority to tell me or anyone else how they can or can't play the game, or what you designate as 'appropriate'. > > > > > > > > > > Because in a PvP game mode, if your primary goal isn't to defeat the enemy team in the most rapid and efficient method possible, then perhaps you're playing in the wrong game mode? > > > > > > > > > > ITT: too many people trying to bring safe spaces and trigger warnings into a players vs player video game. > > > > > > > > This isn't about safe spaces or trigger warnings, this is about basic video game ethics and respect of other players as human beings also playing a game not as enemy combatants fighting a war. This is not actually a war sorry to tell you. > > > > > > > > This is also not about my personal authority over you but about practicing the simple moral principle of "do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you." Also sometimes called the Law of Reciprocity. > > > > > > > > If you profess to having no sense of propriety or respect for me then neither I nor anyone else has any reason to treat you with any sort of propriety or respect either and the whole situation degenerates into this absurd "game is war" mentality where we all do anything we can think of to win including possibly things that aren't technically allowed but nonetheless hard to punish like spying and sabotage and arguably even hacking if it's not obvious or easy to police. Nothing is true everything is permitted. > > > > > > > > And for what? Some WXP? Some loot bags? Reward track XP? Shinies and fluff, God help you. > > > > > > me killing the opponent in whatever way is indeed not a real attack to that person, it is only pixels. that doesnt mean that i dont respect the other as a human being. we both agreed to play the game and the game has set rules. if i kill you within these rules you agreed upon by playing the game, then i think that is respectful. if i use a hack for that, then its not. people whispering me after i kill them, insulting me cause they didnt like the way i fight, that is not respectfull. because they choose to play a game with the options i use. > > > i actually would prefer my opponents to use everything the game offers rather than blaming me for doing so. i just had today a funny guy, after i killed him he whispered me that i just can kill afk people because he was playing with just one hand as he had a phone call, i remembered his name he already once accused me of something similar. then he stated that my class can only kill noobs in a normal 1 vs 1. so we had a few very onesided duels that he lost. he then switched to any noob could kill anyone with such a lame build as mine and i personally cant be a decent player because i play such a lame build. he himself is ofc one of the best players and everyone knows it bla bla. i would have much prefered if he just would have used all the options in the game and defeat me if he really is the better player, but he didnt and instead just tried to attack me, my person emotionally in trying to make me feel bad, he didnt succeed but that is beside the point. i just attacked his toon, he attacked me. so who is disrespectful of the other person as a human being ? > > > > The nice thing about duels is that both participants can always openly stipulate terms ahead of the duel so that there's no doubt as to what is going to be considered fair play and what is not. > > > > The same can be done with any sort of arranged match like a GvG. > > > > The difference with an impromptu fight is that one side can show up thinking the agreed upon rules are one thing while the other can show up thinking something drastically different i.e one group thinks it's going to be a fight without pin snipe and one group shows up with the express intent of just focusing the pin down. > > > > So to reiterate and slightly expand my original post pin snipe is indeed quite effective and certainly a non-bannable tactic but it's boring because it kills fights. I also think that the thought process of "this game is actually a war so I'm going to do literally whatever it takes to win" can lead to some very dark places very quickly. I would highly advise against that sort of thinking. > > > > The consistent answer would be to say never under any circumstance just like what I've said with acs but I've been in the situation before with myself or a friend being pin sniped so I know the temptation to just say "go ahead and do it back." Still two wrongs do not make a right. > > while i do understand your point and there might be some mechanics/tactics where you will get a majority of players to agree that they are 'not fair' , it is really hard to tell unless you specifically agreed on them. the way one feels offended because of pin snipe , another feels offended by condition builds, by range builds, by anything that can run away etc. while you maybe dont pin snipe, he will see you if you play condi like you see people that pin snipe. > if i respect every players wishes, what they deem fair, i best just join naked without weapons /traits etc. to not offend anyone. > i mean can you make a full list of what rules i need to additionally follow aside from the games own rules, that i will be seen as fair ? by everyone? There is a difference between "builds" and "tactics" that you can draw a very obvious line between. Virtually every one of your counterarguments concerns builds. I don't consider any build "unfair", though I do think several of them are OP, particularly those based on stealth or the ability to OSK without serious risk. But that is a whole different kettle of fish from things like pin sniping, spawn camping, spying/trolling siege, etc. As for pin sniping a group that has clearly already done that to you...I don't consider "retaliation in equal measure and kind" to be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 > @"BlueMelody.6398" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > ITT: too many people who played assassin's creed and take "nothing is true, everything is permitted" as their online gaming mantra. > > > > > > > > > > > > I go in to WvW to fight other players and NPCs for WvW XP, Reward track XP, complete dailies and collect loot. Your feelings are not anywhere on my list of concerns. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are on the opposing team, I will do everything I can to defeat you, because in WvW all you are to me is walking WvW XP, Reward track XP, dailies completion and loot. > > > > > > > > > > > > - If you are fighting against two other members of my server, I will without a thought jump in to make it a 3v1 to not only help my team mates, but to collect WvW XP, track XP, dailies and loot. > > > > > > - If you are attacking any camp (mine or 3rd servers) and are going 1vs all the camp guards, I will single target you down, the if the camp is also hostile, I will kill the remaining guards and cap the camp myself - because WvW XP et al > > > > > > - If you flee a fight and fall off a cliff, get downed, and are self-healing to bring yourself back up....I DPS you down - because WvW XP et al > > > > > > > > > > > > You can choose to play WvW any way you want, but don't presume to have the authority to tell me or anyone else how they can or can't play the game, or what you designate as 'appropriate'. > > > > > > > > > > > > Because in a PvP game mode, if your primary goal isn't to defeat the enemy team in the most rapid and efficient method possible, then perhaps you're playing in the wrong game mode? > > > > > > > > > > > > ITT: too many people trying to bring safe spaces and trigger warnings into a players vs player video game. > > > > > > > > > > This isn't about safe spaces or trigger warnings, this is about basic video game ethics and respect of other players as human beings also playing a game not as enemy combatants fighting a war. This is not actually a war sorry to tell you. > > > > > > > > > > This is also not about my personal authority over you but about practicing the simple moral principle of "do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you." Also sometimes called the Law of Reciprocity. > > > > > > > > > > If you profess to having no sense of propriety or respect for me then neither I nor anyone else has any reason to treat you with any sort of propriety or respect either and the whole situation degenerates into this absurd "game is war" mentality where we all do anything we can think of to win including possibly things that aren't technically allowed but nonetheless hard to punish like spying and sabotage and arguably even hacking if it's not obvious or easy to police. Nothing is true everything is permitted. > > > > > > > > > > And for what? Some WXP? Some loot bags? Reward track XP? Shinies and fluff, God help you. > > > > > > > > me killing the opponent in whatever way is indeed not a real attack to that person, it is only pixels. that doesnt mean that i dont respect the other as a human being. we both agreed to play the game and the game has set rules. if i kill you within these rules you agreed upon by playing the game, then i think that is respectful. if i use a hack for that, then its not. people whispering me after i kill them, insulting me cause they didnt like the way i fight, that is not respectfull. because they choose to play a game with the options i use. > > > > i actually would prefer my opponents to use everything the game offers rather than blaming me for doing so. i just had today a funny guy, after i killed him he whispered me that i just can kill afk people because he was playing with just one hand as he had a phone call, i remembered his name he already once accused me of something similar. then he stated that my class can only kill noobs in a normal 1 vs 1. so we had a few very onesided duels that he lost. he then switched to any noob could kill anyone with such a lame build as mine and i personally cant be a decent player because i play such a lame build. he himself is ofc one of the best players and everyone knows it bla bla. i would have much prefered if he just would have used all the options in the game and defeat me if he really is the better player, but he didnt and instead just tried to attack me, my person emotionally in trying to make me feel bad, he didnt succeed but that is beside the point. i just attacked his toon, he attacked me. so who is disrespectful of the other person as a human being ? > > > > > > The nice thing about duels is that both participants can always openly stipulate terms ahead of the duel so that there's no doubt as to what is going to be considered fair play and what is not. > > > > > > The same can be done with any sort of arranged match like a GvG. > > > > > > The difference with an impromptu fight is that one side can show up thinking the agreed upon rules are one thing while the other can show up thinking something drastically different i.e one group thinks it's going to be a fight without pin snipe and one group shows up with the express intent of just focusing the pin down. > > > > > > So to reiterate and slightly expand my original post pin snipe is indeed quite effective and certainly a non-bannable tactic but it's boring because it kills fights. I also think that the thought process of "this game is actually a war so I'm going to do literally whatever it takes to win" can lead to some very dark places very quickly. I would highly advise against that sort of thinking. > > > > > > The consistent answer would be to say never under any circumstance just like what I've said with acs but I've been in the situation before with myself or a friend being pin sniped so I know the temptation to just say "go ahead and do it back." Still two wrongs do not make a right. > > > > while i do understand your point and there might be some mechanics/tactics where you will get a majority of players to agree that they are 'not fair' , it is really hard to tell unless you specifically agreed on them. the way one feels offended because of pin snipe , another feels offended by condition builds, by range builds, by anything that can run away etc. while you maybe dont pin snipe, he will see you if you play condi like you see people that pin snipe. > > if i respect every players wishes, what they deem fair, i best just join naked without weapons /traits etc. to not offend anyone. > > i mean can you make a full list of what rules i need to additionally follow aside from the games own rules, that i will be seen as fair ? by everyone? > > There is a difference between "builds" and "tactics" that you can draw a very obvious line between. Virtually every one of your counterarguments concerns builds. > > I don't consider any build "unfair", though I do think several of them are OP, particularly those based on stealth or the ability to OSK without serious risk. But that is a whole different kettle of fish from things like pin sniping, spawn camping, spying/trolling siege, etc. > > As for pin sniping a group that has clearly already done that to you...I don't consider "retaliation in equal measure and kind" to be wrong. i dont really see the difference in build and tactic for the sake of argument if something is fair or not. both allowed within the game rules but frowned upon by some players for 'reasons'. the issue is that you see it as a pseudo competitive mode. you dont want to compete within the mode but compete about some selfmade game. your basically playing a different mode within gw2s WvW and expect your opponents to play with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > ITT: too many people who played assassin's creed and take "nothing is true, everything is permitted" as their online gaming mantra. > > > > > > > > > > I go in to WvW to fight other players and NPCs for WvW XP, Reward track XP, complete dailies and collect loot. Your feelings are not anywhere on my list of concerns. > > > > > > > > > > If you are on the opposing team, I will do everything I can to defeat you, because in WvW all you are to me is walking WvW XP, Reward track XP, dailies completion and loot. > > > > > > > > > > - If you are fighting against two other members of my server, I will without a thought jump in to make it a 3v1 to not only help my team mates, but to collect WvW XP, track XP, dailies and loot. > > > > > - If you are attacking any camp (mine or 3rd servers) and are going 1vs all the camp guards, I will single target you down, the if the camp is also hostile, I will kill the remaining guards and cap the camp myself - because WvW XP et al > > > > > - If you flee a fight and fall off a cliff, get downed, and are self-healing to bring yourself back up....I DPS you down - because WvW XP et al > > > > > > > > > > You can choose to play WvW any way you want, but don't presume to have the authority to tell me or anyone else how they can or can't play the game, or what you designate as 'appropriate'. > > > > > > > > > > Because in a PvP game mode, if your primary goal isn't to defeat the enemy team in the most rapid and efficient method possible, then perhaps you're playing in the wrong game mode? > > > > > > > > > > ITT: too many people trying to bring safe spaces and trigger warnings into a players vs player video game. > > > > > > > > This isn't about safe spaces or trigger warnings, this is about basic video game ethics and respect of other players as human beings also playing a game not as enemy combatants fighting a war. This is not actually a war sorry to tell you. > > > > > > > > This is also not about my personal authority over you but about practicing the simple moral principle of "do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you." Also sometimes called the Law of Reciprocity. > > > > > > > > If you profess to having no sense of propriety or respect for me then neither I nor anyone else has any reason to treat you with any sort of propriety or respect either and the whole situation degenerates into this absurd "game is war" mentality where we all do anything we can think of to win including possibly things that aren't technically allowed but nonetheless hard to punish like spying and sabotage and arguably even hacking if it's not obvious or easy to police. Nothing is true everything is permitted. > > > > > > > > And for what? Some WXP? Some loot bags? Reward track XP? Shinies and fluff, God help you. > > > > > > me killing the opponent in whatever way is indeed not a real attack to that person, it is only pixels. that doesnt mean that i dont respect the other as a human being. we both agreed to play the game and the game has set rules. if i kill you within these rules you agreed upon by playing the game, then i think that is respectful. if i use a hack for that, then its not. people whispering me after i kill them, insulting me cause they didnt like the way i fight, that is not respectfull. because they choose to play a game with the options i use. > > > i actually would prefer my opponents to use everything the game offers rather than blaming me for doing so. i just had today a funny guy, after i killed him he whispered me that i just can kill afk people because he was playing with just one hand as he had a phone call, i remembered his name he already once accused me of something similar. then he stated that my class can only kill noobs in a normal 1 vs 1. so we had a few very onesided duels that he lost. he then switched to any noob could kill anyone with such a lame build as mine and i personally cant be a decent player because i play such a lame build. he himself is ofc one of the best players and everyone knows it bla bla. i would have much prefered if he just would have used all the options in the game and defeat me if he really is the better player, but he didnt and instead just tried to attack me, my person emotionally in trying to make me feel bad, he didnt succeed but that is beside the point. i just attacked his toon, he attacked me. so who is disrespectful of the other person as a human being ? > > > > The nice thing about duels is that both participants can always openly stipulate terms ahead of the duel so that there's no doubt as to what is going to be considered fair play and what is not. > > > > The same can be done with any sort of arranged match like a GvG. > > > > The difference with an impromptu fight is that one side can show up thinking the agreed upon rules are one thing while the other can show up thinking something drastically different i.e one group thinks it's going to be a fight without pin snipe and one group shows up with the express intent of just focusing the pin down. > > > > So to reiterate and slightly expand my original post pin snipe is indeed quite effective and certainly a non-bannable tactic but it's boring because it kills fights. I also think that the thought process of "this game is actually a war so I'm going to do literally whatever it takes to win" can lead to some very dark places very quickly. I would highly advise against that sort of thinking. > > > > The consistent answer would be to say never under any circumstance just like what I've said with acs but I've been in the situation before with myself or a friend being pin sniped so I know the temptation to just say "go ahead and do it back." Still two wrongs do not make a right. > > while i do understand your point and there might be some mechanics/tactics where you will get a majority of players to agree that they are 'not fair' , it is really hard to tell unless you specifically agreed on them. the way one feels offended because of pin snipe , another feels offended by condition builds, by range builds, by anything that can run away etc. while you maybe dont pin snipe, he will see you if you play condi like you see people that pin snipe. > if i respect every players wishes, what they deem fair, i best just join naked without weapons /traits etc. to not offend anyone. > i mean can you make a full list of what rules i need to additionally follow aside from the games own rules, that i will be seen as fair ? by everyone? No but I'm not proposing a majoritarian standard of ethics. I think the golden rule is a far better standard. Do not do anything to another that you would not like done to yourself. If you don't like your pin to get sniped don't pin snipe. If you dont care then do whatever but know that whatever you do to others you legitimate being done back to you and that that road quickly leads to either no fights or boring sniping back and forth. And for what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eramonster.2718 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 > @"shiri.4257" said: > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > Perhaps we should first define pin snipe because there's a difference between dropping damage on the train and dropping the pin and corrupting the pins boons and then chain pulling him into Africa. > > Majority of the pin snipe rage is more due to a poorly positioned commander or just the fact the head of a squad is fundamentally the bomb spot for simplistic engagements. LIke the GS 5 SB commander, JI or GS-5 FB leaps into Zimbabwe. In this scenario, that's a poor play. The player made a poor judgement and reckless. The opponent merely responded with their setup. I'm more interested in how one could differentiate who's the enemy's commander (can't see their tag or can we?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 > @"Eramonster.2718" said: >I'm more interested in how one could differentiate who's the enemy's commander (can't see their tag or can we?). Usually takes about 5 seconds. He's the one everyone else is following. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > ITT: too many people who played assassin's creed and take "nothing is true, everything is permitted" as their online gaming mantra. > > > > > > > > > > > > I go in to WvW to fight other players and NPCs for WvW XP, Reward track XP, complete dailies and collect loot. Your feelings are not anywhere on my list of concerns. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are on the opposing team, I will do everything I can to defeat you, because in WvW all you are to me is walking WvW XP, Reward track XP, dailies completion and loot. > > > > > > > > > > > > - If you are fighting against two other members of my server, I will without a thought jump in to make it a 3v1 to not only help my team mates, but to collect WvW XP, track XP, dailies and loot. > > > > > > - If you are attacking any camp (mine or 3rd servers) and are going 1vs all the camp guards, I will single target you down, the if the camp is also hostile, I will kill the remaining guards and cap the camp myself - because WvW XP et al > > > > > > - If you flee a fight and fall off a cliff, get downed, and are self-healing to bring yourself back up....I DPS you down - because WvW XP et al > > > > > > > > > > > > You can choose to play WvW any way you want, but don't presume to have the authority to tell me or anyone else how they can or can't play the game, or what you designate as 'appropriate'. > > > > > > > > > > > > Because in a PvP game mode, if your primary goal isn't to defeat the enemy team in the most rapid and efficient method possible, then perhaps you're playing in the wrong game mode? > > > > > > > > > > > > ITT: too many people trying to bring safe spaces and trigger warnings into a players vs player video game. > > > > > > > > > > This isn't about safe spaces or trigger warnings, this is about basic video game ethics and respect of other players as human beings also playing a game not as enemy combatants fighting a war. This is not actually a war sorry to tell you. > > > > > > > > > > This is also not about my personal authority over you but about practicing the simple moral principle of "do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you." Also sometimes called the Law of Reciprocity. > > > > > > > > > > If you profess to having no sense of propriety or respect for me then neither I nor anyone else has any reason to treat you with any sort of propriety or respect either and the whole situation degenerates into this absurd "game is war" mentality where we all do anything we can think of to win including possibly things that aren't technically allowed but nonetheless hard to punish like spying and sabotage and arguably even hacking if it's not obvious or easy to police. Nothing is true everything is permitted. > > > > > > > > > > And for what? Some WXP? Some loot bags? Reward track XP? Shinies and fluff, God help you. > > > > > > > > me killing the opponent in whatever way is indeed not a real attack to that person, it is only pixels. that doesnt mean that i dont respect the other as a human being. we both agreed to play the game and the game has set rules. if i kill you within these rules you agreed upon by playing the game, then i think that is respectful. if i use a hack for that, then its not. people whispering me after i kill them, insulting me cause they didnt like the way i fight, that is not respectfull. because they choose to play a game with the options i use. > > > > i actually would prefer my opponents to use everything the game offers rather than blaming me for doing so. i just had today a funny guy, after i killed him he whispered me that i just can kill afk people because he was playing with just one hand as he had a phone call, i remembered his name he already once accused me of something similar. then he stated that my class can only kill noobs in a normal 1 vs 1. so we had a few very onesided duels that he lost. he then switched to any noob could kill anyone with such a lame build as mine and i personally cant be a decent player because i play such a lame build. he himself is ofc one of the best players and everyone knows it bla bla. i would have much prefered if he just would have used all the options in the game and defeat me if he really is the better player, but he didnt and instead just tried to attack me, my person emotionally in trying to make me feel bad, he didnt succeed but that is beside the point. i just attacked his toon, he attacked me. so who is disrespectful of the other person as a human being ? > > > > > > The nice thing about duels is that both participants can always openly stipulate terms ahead of the duel so that there's no doubt as to what is going to be considered fair play and what is not. > > > > > > The same can be done with any sort of arranged match like a GvG. > > > > > > The difference with an impromptu fight is that one side can show up thinking the agreed upon rules are one thing while the other can show up thinking something drastically different i.e one group thinks it's going to be a fight without pin snipe and one group shows up with the express intent of just focusing the pin down. > > > > > > So to reiterate and slightly expand my original post pin snipe is indeed quite effective and certainly a non-bannable tactic but it's boring because it kills fights. I also think that the thought process of "this game is actually a war so I'm going to do literally whatever it takes to win" can lead to some very dark places very quickly. I would highly advise against that sort of thinking. > > > > > > The consistent answer would be to say never under any circumstance just like what I've said with acs but I've been in the situation before with myself or a friend being pin sniped so I know the temptation to just say "go ahead and do it back." Still two wrongs do not make a right. > > > > while i do understand your point and there might be some mechanics/tactics where you will get a majority of players to agree that they are 'not fair' , it is really hard to tell unless you specifically agreed on them. the way one feels offended because of pin snipe , another feels offended by condition builds, by range builds, by anything that can run away etc. while you maybe dont pin snipe, he will see you if you play condi like you see people that pin snipe. > > if i respect every players wishes, what they deem fair, i best just join naked without weapons /traits etc. to not offend anyone. > > i mean can you make a full list of what rules i need to additionally follow aside from the games own rules, that i will be seen as fair ? by everyone? > > No but I'm not proposing a majoritarian standard of ethics. I think the golden rule is a far better standard. Do not do anything to another that you would not like done to yourself. If you don't like your pin to get sniped don't pin snipe. If you dont care then do whatever but know that whatever you do to others you legitimate being done back to you and that that road quickly leads to either no fights or boring sniping back and forth. And for what? would it be boring and no fights tho? as said above for me personally everything in the games ruleset goes. and i expect my opponents to do anything in the games ruleset, altho they often dont. you make it sound like a threat, that my opponents will do the same. yet i exactly expect that. you are the one having an issue with it, not me. if now pin is sniped in every fight it is seen as usefull, sure people can give up and then there is no fight or people improve to make it either harder to pin snipe or make it have less of an effect on them. i dont understand why you dont want to learn to deal with it and just declare it as unsportsmanlike or whatever. the golen rule is nice as long as everyone despises the same things. if everyone had an issue with pin snipe, then it would work more or less. but the moment one is okey with his pin being sniped, as they see it as a chance learn to deal with it, to improve. then the golden rule will no longer protect you from pin sniping. 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Israel.7056 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > ITT: too many people who played assassin's creed and take "nothing is true, everything is permitted" as their online gaming mantra. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I go in to WvW to fight other players and NPCs for WvW XP, Reward track XP, complete dailies and collect loot. Your feelings are not anywhere on my list of concerns. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are on the opposing team, I will do everything I can to defeat you, because in WvW all you are to me is walking WvW XP, Reward track XP, dailies completion and loot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - If you are fighting against two other members of my server, I will without a thought jump in to make it a 3v1 to not only help my team mates, but to collect WvW XP, track XP, dailies and loot. > > > > > > > - If you are attacking any camp (mine or 3rd servers) and are going 1vs all the camp guards, I will single target you down, the if the camp is also hostile, I will kill the remaining guards and cap the camp myself - because WvW XP et al > > > > > > > - If you flee a fight and fall off a cliff, get downed, and are self-healing to bring yourself back up....I DPS you down - because WvW XP et al > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can choose to play WvW any way you want, but don't presume to have the authority to tell me or anyone else how they can or can't play the game, or what you designate as 'appropriate'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because in a PvP game mode, if your primary goal isn't to defeat the enemy team in the most rapid and efficient method possible, then perhaps you're playing in the wrong game mode? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ITT: too many people trying to bring safe spaces and trigger warnings into a players vs player video game. > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't about safe spaces or trigger warnings, this is about basic video game ethics and respect of other players as human beings also playing a game not as enemy combatants fighting a war. This is not actually a war sorry to tell you. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is also not about my personal authority over you but about practicing the simple moral principle of "do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you." Also sometimes called the Law of Reciprocity. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you profess to having no sense of propriety or respect for me then neither I nor anyone else has any reason to treat you with any sort of propriety or respect either and the whole situation degenerates into this absurd "game is war" mentality where we all do anything we can think of to win including possibly things that aren't technically allowed but nonetheless hard to punish like spying and sabotage and arguably even hacking if it's not obvious or easy to police. Nothing is true everything is permitted. > > > > > > > > > > > > And for what? Some WXP? Some loot bags? Reward track XP? Shinies and fluff, God help you. > > > > > > > > > > me killing the opponent in whatever way is indeed not a real attack to that person, it is only pixels. that doesnt mean that i dont respect the other as a human being. we both agreed to play the game and the game has set rules. if i kill you within these rules you agreed upon by playing the game, then i think that is respectful. if i use a hack for that, then its not. people whispering me after i kill them, insulting me cause they didnt like the way i fight, that is not respectfull. because they choose to play a game with the options i use. > > > > > i actually would prefer my opponents to use everything the game offers rather than blaming me for doing so. i just had today a funny guy, after i killed him he whispered me that i just can kill afk people because he was playing with just one hand as he had a phone call, i remembered his name he already once accused me of something similar. then he stated that my class can only kill noobs in a normal 1 vs 1. so we had a few very onesided duels that he lost. he then switched to any noob could kill anyone with such a lame build as mine and i personally cant be a decent player because i play such a lame build. he himself is ofc one of the best players and everyone knows it bla bla. i would have much prefered if he just would have used all the options in the game and defeat me if he really is the better player, but he didnt and instead just tried to attack me, my person emotionally in trying to make me feel bad, he didnt succeed but that is beside the point. i just attacked his toon, he attacked me. so who is disrespectful of the other person as a human being ? > > > > > > > > The nice thing about duels is that both participants can always openly stipulate terms ahead of the duel so that there's no doubt as to what is going to be considered fair play and what is not. > > > > > > > > The same can be done with any sort of arranged match like a GvG. > > > > > > > > The difference with an impromptu fight is that one side can show up thinking the agreed upon rules are one thing while the other can show up thinking something drastically different i.e one group thinks it's going to be a fight without pin snipe and one group shows up with the express intent of just focusing the pin down. > > > > > > > > So to reiterate and slightly expand my original post pin snipe is indeed quite effective and certainly a non-bannable tactic but it's boring because it kills fights. I also think that the thought process of "this game is actually a war so I'm going to do literally whatever it takes to win" can lead to some very dark places very quickly. I would highly advise against that sort of thinking. > > > > > > > > The consistent answer would be to say never under any circumstance just like what I've said with acs but I've been in the situation before with myself or a friend being pin sniped so I know the temptation to just say "go ahead and do it back." Still two wrongs do not make a right. > > > > > > while i do understand your point and there might be some mechanics/tactics where you will get a majority of players to agree that they are 'not fair' , it is really hard to tell unless you specifically agreed on them. the way one feels offended because of pin snipe , another feels offended by condition builds, by range builds, by anything that can run away etc. while you maybe dont pin snipe, he will see you if you play condi like you see people that pin snipe. > > > if i respect every players wishes, what they deem fair, i best just join naked without weapons /traits etc. to not offend anyone. > > > i mean can you make a full list of what rules i need to additionally follow aside from the games own rules, that i will be seen as fair ? by everyone? > > > > No but I'm not proposing a majoritarian standard of ethics. I think the golden rule is a far better standard. Do not do anything to another that you would not like done to yourself. If you don't like your pin to get sniped don't pin snipe. If you dont care then do whatever but know that whatever you do to others you legitimate being done back to you and that that road quickly leads to either no fights or boring sniping back and forth. And for what? > > would it be boring and no fights tho? > as said above for me personally everything in the games ruleset goes. and i expect my opponents to do anything in the games ruleset, altho they often dont. you make it sound like a threat, that my opponents will do the same. yet i exactly expect that. you are the one having an issue with it, not me. > if now pin is sniped in every fight it is seen as usefull, sure people can give up and then there is no fight or people improve to make it either harder to pin snipe or make it have less of an effect on them. i dont understand why you dont want to learn to deal with it and just declare it as unsportsmanlike or whatever. > the golen rule is nice as long as everyone despises the same things. if everyone had an issue with pin snipe, then it would work more or less. but the moment one is okey with his pin being sniped, as they see it as a chance learn to deal with it, to improve. then the golden rule will no longer protect you from pin sniping. But then the whole thing degenerates into a snipe war and believe me when I say that I have sat through my fair share of snipe wars and I gotta tell you I find them to be pretty boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > > ITT: too many people who played assassin's creed and take "nothing is true, everything is permitted" as their online gaming mantra. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I go in to WvW to fight other players and NPCs for WvW XP, Reward track XP, complete dailies and collect loot. Your feelings are not anywhere on my list of concerns. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are on the opposing team, I will do everything I can to defeat you, because in WvW all you are to me is walking WvW XP, Reward track XP, dailies completion and loot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - If you are fighting against two other members of my server, I will without a thought jump in to make it a 3v1 to not only help my team mates, but to collect WvW XP, track XP, dailies and loot. > > > > > > > > - If you are attacking any camp (mine or 3rd servers) and are going 1vs all the camp guards, I will single target you down, the if the camp is also hostile, I will kill the remaining guards and cap the camp myself - because WvW XP et al > > > > > > > > - If you flee a fight and fall off a cliff, get downed, and are self-healing to bring yourself back up....I DPS you down - because WvW XP et al > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can choose to play WvW any way you want, but don't presume to have the authority to tell me or anyone else how they can or can't play the game, or what you designate as 'appropriate'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because in a PvP game mode, if your primary goal isn't to defeat the enemy team in the most rapid and efficient method possible, then perhaps you're playing in the wrong game mode? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ITT: too many people trying to bring safe spaces and trigger warnings into a players vs player video game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't about safe spaces or trigger warnings, this is about basic video game ethics and respect of other players as human beings also playing a game not as enemy combatants fighting a war. This is not actually a war sorry to tell you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is also not about my personal authority over you but about practicing the simple moral principle of "do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you." Also sometimes called the Law of Reciprocity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you profess to having no sense of propriety or respect for me then neither I nor anyone else has any reason to treat you with any sort of propriety or respect either and the whole situation degenerates into this absurd "game is war" mentality where we all do anything we can think of to win including possibly things that aren't technically allowed but nonetheless hard to punish like spying and sabotage and arguably even hacking if it's not obvious or easy to police. Nothing is true everything is permitted. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And for what? Some WXP? Some loot bags? Reward track XP? Shinies and fluff, God help you. > > > > > > > > > > > > me killing the opponent in whatever way is indeed not a real attack to that person, it is only pixels. that doesnt mean that i dont respect the other as a human being. we both agreed to play the game and the game has set rules. if i kill you within these rules you agreed upon by playing the game, then i think that is respectful. if i use a hack for that, then its not. people whispering me after i kill them, insulting me cause they didnt like the way i fight, that is not respectfull. because they choose to play a game with the options i use. > > > > > > i actually would prefer my opponents to use everything the game offers rather than blaming me for doing so. i just had today a funny guy, after i killed him he whispered me that i just can kill afk people because he was playing with just one hand as he had a phone call, i remembered his name he already once accused me of something similar. then he stated that my class can only kill noobs in a normal 1 vs 1. so we had a few very onesided duels that he lost. he then switched to any noob could kill anyone with such a lame build as mine and i personally cant be a decent player because i play such a lame build. he himself is ofc one of the best players and everyone knows it bla bla. i would have much prefered if he just would have used all the options in the game and defeat me if he really is the better player, but he didnt and instead just tried to attack me, my person emotionally in trying to make me feel bad, he didnt succeed but that is beside the point. i just attacked his toon, he attacked me. so who is disrespectful of the other person as a human being ? > > > > > > > > > > The nice thing about duels is that both participants can always openly stipulate terms ahead of the duel so that there's no doubt as to what is going to be considered fair play and what is not. > > > > > > > > > > The same can be done with any sort of arranged match like a GvG. > > > > > > > > > > The difference with an impromptu fight is that one side can show up thinking the agreed upon rules are one thing while the other can show up thinking something drastically different i.e one group thinks it's going to be a fight without pin snipe and one group shows up with the express intent of just focusing the pin down. > > > > > > > > > > So to reiterate and slightly expand my original post pin snipe is indeed quite effective and certainly a non-bannable tactic but it's boring because it kills fights. I also think that the thought process of "this game is actually a war so I'm going to do literally whatever it takes to win" can lead to some very dark places very quickly. I would highly advise against that sort of thinking. > > > > > > > > > > The consistent answer would be to say never under any circumstance just like what I've said with acs but I've been in the situation before with myself or a friend being pin sniped so I know the temptation to just say "go ahead and do it back." Still two wrongs do not make a right. > > > > > > > > while i do understand your point and there might be some mechanics/tactics where you will get a majority of players to agree that they are 'not fair' , it is really hard to tell unless you specifically agreed on them. the way one feels offended because of pin snipe , another feels offended by condition builds, by range builds, by anything that can run away etc. while you maybe dont pin snipe, he will see you if you play condi like you see people that pin snipe. > > > > if i respect every players wishes, what they deem fair, i best just join naked without weapons /traits etc. to not offend anyone. > > > > i mean can you make a full list of what rules i need to additionally follow aside from the games own rules, that i will be seen as fair ? by everyone? > > > > > > No but I'm not proposing a majoritarian standard of ethics. I think the golden rule is a far better standard. Do not do anything to another that you would not like done to yourself. If you don't like your pin to get sniped don't pin snipe. If you dont care then do whatever but know that whatever you do to others you legitimate being done back to you and that that road quickly leads to either no fights or boring sniping back and forth. And for what? > > > > would it be boring and no fights tho? > > as said above for me personally everything in the games ruleset goes. and i expect my opponents to do anything in the games ruleset, altho they often dont. you make it sound like a threat, that my opponents will do the same. yet i exactly expect that. you are the one having an issue with it, not me. > > if now pin is sniped in every fight it is seen as usefull, sure people can give up and then there is no fight or people improve to make it either harder to pin snipe or make it have less of an effect on them. i dont understand why you dont want to learn to deal with it and just declare it as unsportsmanlike or whatever. > > the golen rule is nice as long as everyone despises the same things. if everyone had an issue with pin snipe, then it would work more or less. but the moment one is okey with his pin being sniped, as they see it as a chance learn to deal with it, to improve. then the golden rule will no longer protect you from pin sniping. > > But then the whole thing degenerates into a snipe war and believe me when I say that I have sat through my fair share of snipe wars and I gotta tell you I find them to be pretty boring. boring is again very personal. i mostly find runnin in pug zergs with terribly bad people very boring, i find it very boring to outnumber by opponents by alot leaving them no room to fight back. yet both of it i see daily alot. if you despise the sniping to begin with, it will be harder for you to improve on it both in doing it yourself and being less affected by it. i mean just take a step back and look at the zergs, why is it so crutial if one person dies, but if another person dies it doesnt matter as much. the pin does not have special stronger skills and traits at his disposal. the only thing that sets the commander appart from the rest of the zerg is its social role, with it he has major controll over many of its zerglings who seem to be unable to do the right thing without the commander explicitly telling them, if they were able to, then a dead commander would change little. if it is just for orientation, positioning. then is the question why do you use the commander for it, why dont you try doing it with squad markers ? sure would take some time to get used to them, but the opponent cant snipe your marker. putting more resposibility on one character opens up a weakness your opponent can exploit. even if the commander dies, he is still in your voice chat normally and can still tell you what to do, he is not gone. the only thing they can snipe is his character, wich again has no superpowers. i am certain if you truely want to, you can improve to a point were the opponents can no longer use pin sniping as a powerfull tool. but you dont want to go that route, because its too 'boring'. guess then you have to live with it. 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cobbah.3102 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > ITT: too many people who played assassin's creed and take "nothing is true, everything is permitted" as their online gaming mantra. > > > > I go in to WvW to fight other players and NPCs for WvW XP, Reward track XP, complete dailies and collect loot. Your feelings are not anywhere on my list of concerns. > > > > If you are on the opposing team, I will do everything I can to defeat you, because in WvW all you are to me is walking WvW XP, Reward track XP, dailies completion and loot. > > > > - If you are fighting against two other members of my server, I will without a thought jump in to make it a 3v1 to not only help my team mates, but to collect WvW XP, track XP, dailies and loot. > > - If you are attacking any camp (mine or 3rd servers) and are going 1vs all the camp guards, I will single target you down, the if the camp is also hostile, I will kill the remaining guards and cap the camp myself - because WvW XP et al > > - If you flee a fight and fall off a cliff, get downed, and are self-healing to bring yourself back up....I DPS you down - because WvW XP et al > > > > You can choose to play WvW any way you want, but don't presume to have the authority to tell me or anyone else how they can or can't play the game, or what you designate as 'appropriate'. > > > > Because in a PvP game mode, if your primary goal isn't to defeat the enemy team in the most rapid and efficient method possible, then perhaps you're playing in the wrong game mode? > > > > ITT: too many people trying to bring safe spaces and trigger warnings into a players vs player video game. > > This isn't about safe spaces or trigger warnings, this is about basic video game ethics and respect of other players as human beings also playing a game not as enemy combatants fighting a war. This is not actually a war sorry to tell you. > > This is also not about my personal authority over you but about practicing the simple moral principle of "do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you." Also sometimes called the Law of Reciprocity. > > If you profess to having no sense of propriety or respect for me then neither I nor anyone else has any reason to treat you with any sort of propriety or respect either and the whole situation degenerates into this absurd "game is war" mentality where we all do anything we can think of to win including possibly things that aren't technically allowed but nonetheless hard to punish like spying and sabotage and arguably even hacking if it's not obvious or easy to police. Nothing is true everything is permitted. > > And for what? Some WXP? Some loot bags? Reward track XP? Shinies and fluff, God help you. Gimme Gimme Gimme WXP ? some loot bags REward track and the shinies and fluff, as for the last 3 words well I also believe in fairy tales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etheri.5406 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 > @"Eramonster.2718" said: > > @"shiri.4257" said: > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > Perhaps we should first define pin snipe because there's a difference between dropping damage on the train and dropping the pin and corrupting the pins boons and then chain pulling him into Africa. > > > > Majority of the pin snipe rage is more due to a poorly positioned commander or just the fact the head of a squad is fundamentally the bomb spot for simplistic engagements. LIke the GS 5 SB commander, JI or GS-5 FB leaps into Zimbabwe. > > In this scenario, that's a poor play. The player made a poor judgement and reckless. The opponent merely responded with their setup. I'm more interested in how one could differentiate who's the enemy's commander (can't see their tag or can we?). Bombing on a push isn't pinsnipe. It's pin walking into a bomb. Even if they leap. Im not talking about dropping range pressure on a comm as "pin snipe". Corrupts, pulls into narnia, moa's into full bomb is sniping. If players "snipe" by just target corrupting and bombing on you as you push, the only thing you need to do is not push. A dull stalemate but tadah - most comps that spec to snipe aren't exactly tanky enough to push themselves. The gameplay is a whole lot more boring as both sides stalemate and pirateship constantly, but they won't be getting many bags. As to finding the comm... Howmany public commanders do you think are left in the game? I'm not talking about chatmanders. I'd say on EU in public there's 3-4 EU servers capable of creating a group which can provide competitive fights. Every other server can't even organise half their players, making them one push as soon as you get a remotely decent comp. On those 3-4 EU servers, there are 3-5 comms per server at best. Maybe 15 comms in total. Most of these are well known, experienced players which often know eachother. Half the players in both groups know eachother from ex guilds, playing together, throwing salt at eachother, ... Most of the time both sides know who's leading and, by direct result, their rank and often looks before the first fight even starts. If the enemy has a blob good enough to be remotely worth sniping, then it's not difficult to figure out who it is. The other servers can try to snipe, but in general they can't even organise half their players. Much less snipe properly. Sov, as far as your question goes.... I've rarely felt the need to snipe back. That doesnt' mean i'm not going to play their game with them. It's obvious I'd prefer even fights and i'll happily go to the enemies side to fight when stronger. I'll happily make yolo pushes when stronger. No reason to bunker inside sm, even at T0 with the stronger blob. Much less reason to go PPT the third, weaker side to draw out an enemy you're beating instead. The moment players snipe consistently, if i'm getting moa'd / pulled / ... every fight you just move the terrain to places where it becomes rather annoying for them to do. Goodluck pinsniping inside enemy structures if half your snipe classes are relatively squishy range which don't have the sustain to make a push. Goodluck pinsniping if i'll just sit on the enemy side of the map with a stronger group and not even push -because i don't need to- the moment you show up. What are you going to do, ppt my side? There is NOTHING that stops you from playing fully defensive and only choosing advantageous fights even if you have the stronger group. It's exceptionally boring but hey, any means to win right? ;) Most pinsnipe starts after losing fights. And often enough the only thing you need to do in response is play defensive despite having the strongest group on the map resulting in far less fights, far less fun overall as neither side has the ability to push or force anything, ever. An unfun stalemate which, in my experience, makes the players who wanted the challenging fights rather than the eternal waiting game of "we can't push and neither can they but we're both salty so we'll just stand here and wait" log off first. If they're really persistent about sniping AND the lead is playing actively with it then by all means, as I said before usually snipe is just used as a means to avoid losing by a weaker group. If they're all so adamant about "anything goes to win", you can do the same. This implies, to me, that you no longer care about having good fights and you WILL NEVER go back to having "nice fights" from here. This is just salt wars where you punish players like the ones in this thread acting b i g because "anything goes to win like in real wars.". There are 2 possible results : full snipe wars which are far from fun for either side, or you do it proper and the enemy comm logs off. No other comm is likely to take over, probably because you just sniped the last one until he alt F4'd. This is the kind of stuff that i'll do after several hours of getting pulled / moa'd / sniped but frankly i've done less than 5 times as a lead myself. In general, the comm will NEVER want to have "nice fights" with you again. But if you're OK with the consequences of the above ^, then just actually organise your players to target corrupt, pull, moa OR if your melee is WAY stronger and you want to make a statement, mark + full melee train him down with bubbles. Kill him. For bonus salt, leave his entire blob (ignore them) once he's dead and just go karmatrain the other side of the map to make them run. Repeat every time they come. Expect a lot of flame in whispers. "Everything goes" in GW2 implies both sides sit in an eternal stalemate. GW2 is way more fun if the stronger side takes risks and the weaker side can exploit those so both have a chance, regardless of skill and numbers. And this is OK. But many use these tools no matter what, no matter when to ensure "wins" that they don't quite deserve. If this is your playstyle, don't be suprised if you find yourself spawncamped because your keep flipped and the enemy - which is stronger without siege by default - decides to build 20 acs in your T0 spawn keep. Don't be suprised to find that the server which was beating you without snipe also ends up sniping better than you. Don't be suprised if both sides just sit on a choke with 10 acs and whoever pushes ALWAYS dies, to the point where nobody ever pushes. I've seen enough lame gameplay to know how it ends. It escalates until either side logs off. Then in future, both sides comms avoid eachother OR further escalate because leading for salt isn't fun unless... right, further escalation. But hey, that's how real war works too right? Continuous escalation which isn't about either side enjoying themselves or gaining anything - it's about making the conditions for the enemy side so awful that not fighting is better than "winning". I suggest we treat a fantasy videogame like GW2 exactly like that. I'm sure that'll lead to great fun. It's almost like GW2 is more similar to a ... competitive sport where you can treat your opponent with RESPECT than considering them as a war opponent you dehumanize to rationalize bombing them... JUST KIDDING GW2 IS ALL ABOUT THAT HISTORICAL ACCURACY. :trollface: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etheri.5406 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > > ITT: too many people who played assassin's creed and take "nothing is true, everything is permitted" as their online gaming mantra. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I go in to WvW to fight other players and NPCs for WvW XP, Reward track XP, complete dailies and collect loot. Your feelings are not anywhere on my list of concerns. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are on the opposing team, I will do everything I can to defeat you, because in WvW all you are to me is walking WvW XP, Reward track XP, dailies completion and loot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - If you are fighting against two other members of my server, I will without a thought jump in to make it a 3v1 to not only help my team mates, but to collect WvW XP, track XP, dailies and loot. > > > > > > > > - If you are attacking any camp (mine or 3rd servers) and are going 1vs all the camp guards, I will single target you down, the if the camp is also hostile, I will kill the remaining guards and cap the camp myself - because WvW XP et al > > > > > > > > - If you flee a fight and fall off a cliff, get downed, and are self-healing to bring yourself back up....I DPS you down - because WvW XP et al > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can choose to play WvW any way you want, but don't presume to have the authority to tell me or anyone else how they can or can't play the game, or what you designate as 'appropriate'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because in a PvP game mode, if your primary goal isn't to defeat the enemy team in the most rapid and efficient method possible, then perhaps you're playing in the wrong game mode? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ITT: too many people trying to bring safe spaces and trigger warnings into a players vs player video game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't about safe spaces or trigger warnings, this is about basic video game ethics and respect of other players as human beings also playing a game not as enemy combatants fighting a war. This is not actually a war sorry to tell you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is also not about my personal authority over you but about practicing the simple moral principle of "do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you." Also sometimes called the Law of Reciprocity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you profess to having no sense of propriety or respect for me then neither I nor anyone else has any reason to treat you with any sort of propriety or respect either and the whole situation degenerates into this absurd "game is war" mentality where we all do anything we can think of to win including possibly things that aren't technically allowed but nonetheless hard to punish like spying and sabotage and arguably even hacking if it's not obvious or easy to police. Nothing is true everything is permitted. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And for what? Some WXP? Some loot bags? Reward track XP? Shinies and fluff, God help you. > > > > > > > > > > > > me killing the opponent in whatever way is indeed not a real attack to that person, it is only pixels. that doesnt mean that i dont respect the other as a human being. we both agreed to play the game and the game has set rules. if i kill you within these rules you agreed upon by playing the game, then i think that is respectful. if i use a hack for that, then its not. people whispering me after i kill them, insulting me cause they didnt like the way i fight, that is not respectfull. because they choose to play a game with the options i use. > > > > > > i actually would prefer my opponents to use everything the game offers rather than blaming me for doing so. i just had today a funny guy, after i killed him he whispered me that i just can kill afk people because he was playing with just one hand as he had a phone call, i remembered his name he already once accused me of something similar. then he stated that my class can only kill noobs in a normal 1 vs 1. so we had a few very onesided duels that he lost. he then switched to any noob could kill anyone with such a lame build as mine and i personally cant be a decent player because i play such a lame build. he himself is ofc one of the best players and everyone knows it bla bla. i would have much prefered if he just would have used all the options in the game and defeat me if he really is the better player, but he didnt and instead just tried to attack me, my person emotionally in trying to make me feel bad, he didnt succeed but that is beside the point. i just attacked his toon, he attacked me. so who is disrespectful of the other person as a human being ? > > > > > > > > > > The nice thing about duels is that both participants can always openly stipulate terms ahead of the duel so that there's no doubt as to what is going to be considered fair play and what is not. > > > > > > > > > > The same can be done with any sort of arranged match like a GvG. > > > > > > > > > > The difference with an impromptu fight is that one side can show up thinking the agreed upon rules are one thing while the other can show up thinking something drastically different i.e one group thinks it's going to be a fight without pin snipe and one group shows up with the express intent of just focusing the pin down. > > > > > > > > > > So to reiterate and slightly expand my original post pin snipe is indeed quite effective and certainly a non-bannable tactic but it's boring because it kills fights. I also think that the thought process of "this game is actually a war so I'm going to do literally whatever it takes to win" can lead to some very dark places very quickly. I would highly advise against that sort of thinking. > > > > > > > > > > The consistent answer would be to say never under any circumstance just like what I've said with acs but I've been in the situation before with myself or a friend being pin sniped so I know the temptation to just say "go ahead and do it back." Still two wrongs do not make a right. > > > > > > > > while i do understand your point and there might be some mechanics/tactics where you will get a majority of players to agree that they are 'not fair' , it is really hard to tell unless you specifically agreed on them. the way one feels offended because of pin snipe , another feels offended by condition builds, by range builds, by anything that can run away etc. while you maybe dont pin snipe, he will see you if you play condi like you see people that pin snipe. > > > > if i respect every players wishes, what they deem fair, i best just join naked without weapons /traits etc. to not offend anyone. > > > > i mean can you make a full list of what rules i need to additionally follow aside from the games own rules, that i will be seen as fair ? by everyone? > > > > > > No but I'm not proposing a majoritarian standard of ethics. I think the golden rule is a far better standard. Do not do anything to another that you would not like done to yourself. If you don't like your pin to get sniped don't pin snipe. If you dont care then do whatever but know that whatever you do to others you legitimate being done back to you and that that road quickly leads to either no fights or boring sniping back and forth. And for what? > > > > would it be boring and no fights tho? > > as said above for me personally everything in the games ruleset goes. and i expect my opponents to do anything in the games ruleset, altho they often dont. you make it sound like a threat, that my opponents will do the same. yet i exactly expect that. you are the one having an issue with it, not me. > > if now pin is sniped in every fight it is seen as usefull, sure people can give up and then there is no fight or people improve to make it either harder to pin snipe or make it have less of an effect on them. i dont understand why you dont want to learn to deal with it and just declare it as unsportsmanlike or whatever. > > the golen rule is nice as long as everyone despises the same things. if everyone had an issue with pin snipe, then it would work more or less. but the moment one is okey with his pin being sniped, as they see it as a chance learn to deal with it, to improve. then the golden rule will no longer protect you from pin sniping. > > But then the whole thing degenerates into a snipe war and believe me when I say that I have sat through my fair share of snipe wars and I gotta tell you I find them to be pretty boring. ^I don't see how pinsnipe is a rational solution. How it improves ANY situation long term. It's a short term fix that screws you long term. If you're the weaker side and need pinsnipe to win... if they do the same you still lose AND make the gameplay progressively worse. If you're stronger and you use pinsnipe to win... One, why? Salt? Two, it just speeds up killing your own fights making sure you get less bags, less practise and less fun. So again, why? If it's the strategy you like to use to win, wouldn't winning fights be a good time to practise other strats? If fights are equal, it almost always promotes non-fighting and stalemates. Why would you want to AVOID equal fights where both sides can win, just to ensure that IF you fight you win? Short term it results in the feeling of being better... Long term it results in no action, less improvement and less enemies willing to compete. It also often results in full blown snipe wars. Any competitive / strong group left in EU is at the mercy of their enemies willing to fight them. The amount of organised groups can be counted. Amount of GvG guilds? Counted on one hand. Amount of servers capable of forming an organised zerg? Countable on one hand. The only thing snipe accomplishes is removing a finger from that hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > > > ITT: too many people who played assassin's creed and take "nothing is true, everything is permitted" as their online gaming mantra. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I go in to WvW to fight other players and NPCs for WvW XP, Reward track XP, complete dailies and collect loot. Your feelings are not anywhere on my list of concerns. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are on the opposing team, I will do everything I can to defeat you, because in WvW all you are to me is walking WvW XP, Reward track XP, dailies completion and loot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - If you are fighting against two other members of my server, I will without a thought jump in to make it a 3v1 to not only help my team mates, but to collect WvW XP, track XP, dailies and loot. > > > > > > > > > - If you are attacking any camp (mine or 3rd servers) and are going 1vs all the camp guards, I will single target you down, the if the camp is also hostile, I will kill the remaining guards and cap the camp myself - because WvW XP et al > > > > > > > > > - If you flee a fight and fall off a cliff, get downed, and are self-healing to bring yourself back up....I DPS you down - because WvW XP et al > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can choose to play WvW any way you want, but don't presume to have the authority to tell me or anyone else how they can or can't play the game, or what you designate as 'appropriate'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because in a PvP game mode, if your primary goal isn't to defeat the enemy team in the most rapid and efficient method possible, then perhaps you're playing in the wrong game mode? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ITT: too many people trying to bring safe spaces and trigger warnings into a players vs player video game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't about safe spaces or trigger warnings, this is about basic video game ethics and respect of other players as human beings also playing a game not as enemy combatants fighting a war. This is not actually a war sorry to tell you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is also not about my personal authority over you but about practicing the simple moral principle of "do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you." Also sometimes called the Law of Reciprocity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you profess to having no sense of propriety or respect for me then neither I nor anyone else has any reason to treat you with any sort of propriety or respect either and the whole situation degenerates into this absurd "game is war" mentality where we all do anything we can think of to win including possibly things that aren't technically allowed but nonetheless hard to punish like spying and sabotage and arguably even hacking if it's not obvious or easy to police. Nothing is true everything is permitted. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And for what? Some WXP? Some loot bags? Reward track XP? Shinies and fluff, God help you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > me killing the opponent in whatever way is indeed not a real attack to that person, it is only pixels. that doesnt mean that i dont respect the other as a human being. we both agreed to play the game and the game has set rules. if i kill you within these rules you agreed upon by playing the game, then i think that is respectful. if i use a hack for that, then its not. people whispering me after i kill them, insulting me cause they didnt like the way i fight, that is not respectfull. because they choose to play a game with the options i use. > > > > > > > i actually would prefer my opponents to use everything the game offers rather than blaming me for doing so. i just had today a funny guy, after i killed him he whispered me that i just can kill afk people because he was playing with just one hand as he had a phone call, i remembered his name he already once accused me of something similar. then he stated that my class can only kill noobs in a normal 1 vs 1. so we had a few very onesided duels that he lost. he then switched to any noob could kill anyone with such a lame build as mine and i personally cant be a decent player because i play such a lame build. he himself is ofc one of the best players and everyone knows it bla bla. i would have much prefered if he just would have used all the options in the game and defeat me if he really is the better player, but he didnt and instead just tried to attack me, my person emotionally in trying to make me feel bad, he didnt succeed but that is beside the point. i just attacked his toon, he attacked me. so who is disrespectful of the other person as a human being ? > > > > > > > > > > > > The nice thing about duels is that both participants can always openly stipulate terms ahead of the duel so that there's no doubt as to what is going to be considered fair play and what is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > The same can be done with any sort of arranged match like a GvG. > > > > > > > > > > > > The difference with an impromptu fight is that one side can show up thinking the agreed upon rules are one thing while the other can show up thinking something drastically different i.e one group thinks it's going to be a fight without pin snipe and one group shows up with the express intent of just focusing the pin down. > > > > > > > > > > > > So to reiterate and slightly expand my original post pin snipe is indeed quite effective and certainly a non-bannable tactic but it's boring because it kills fights. I also think that the thought process of "this game is actually a war so I'm going to do literally whatever it takes to win" can lead to some very dark places very quickly. I would highly advise against that sort of thinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > The consistent answer would be to say never under any circumstance just like what I've said with acs but I've been in the situation before with myself or a friend being pin sniped so I know the temptation to just say "go ahead and do it back." Still two wrongs do not make a right. > > > > > > > > > > while i do understand your point and there might be some mechanics/tactics where you will get a majority of players to agree that they are 'not fair' , it is really hard to tell unless you specifically agreed on them. the way one feels offended because of pin snipe , another feels offended by condition builds, by range builds, by anything that can run away etc. while you maybe dont pin snipe, he will see you if you play condi like you see people that pin snipe. > > > > > if i respect every players wishes, what they deem fair, i best just join naked without weapons /traits etc. to not offend anyone. > > > > > i mean can you make a full list of what rules i need to additionally follow aside from the games own rules, that i will be seen as fair ? by everyone? > > > > > > > > No but I'm not proposing a majoritarian standard of ethics. I think the golden rule is a far better standard. Do not do anything to another that you would not like done to yourself. If you don't like your pin to get sniped don't pin snipe. If you dont care then do whatever but know that whatever you do to others you legitimate being done back to you and that that road quickly leads to either no fights or boring sniping back and forth. And for what? > > > > > > would it be boring and no fights tho? > > > as said above for me personally everything in the games ruleset goes. and i expect my opponents to do anything in the games ruleset, altho they often dont. you make it sound like a threat, that my opponents will do the same. yet i exactly expect that. you are the one having an issue with it, not me. > > > if now pin is sniped in every fight it is seen as usefull, sure people can give up and then there is no fight or people improve to make it either harder to pin snipe or make it have less of an effect on them. i dont understand why you dont want to learn to deal with it and just declare it as unsportsmanlike or whatever. > > > the golen rule is nice as long as everyone despises the same things. if everyone had an issue with pin snipe, then it would work more or less. but the moment one is okey with his pin being sniped, as they see it as a chance learn to deal with it, to improve. then the golden rule will no longer protect you from pin sniping. > > > > But then the whole thing degenerates into a snipe war and believe me when I say that I have sat through my fair share of snipe wars and I gotta tell you I find them to be pretty boring. > > ^I don't see how pinsnipe is a rational solution. How it improves ANY situation long term. It's a short term fix that screws you long term. > > If you're the weaker side and need pinsnipe to win... if they do the same you still lose AND make the gameplay progressively worse. > > If you're stronger and you use pinsnipe to win... One, why? Salt? Two, it just speeds up killing your own fights making sure you get less bags, less practise and less fun. So again, why? If it's the strategy you like to use to win, wouldn't winning fights be a good time to practise other strats? > > If fights are equal, it almost always promotes non-fighting and stalemates. Why would you want to AVOID equal fights where both sides can win, just to ensure that IF you fight you win? Short term it results in the feeling of being better... Long term it results in no action, less improvement and less enemies willing to compete. It also often results in full blown snipe wars. > > Any competitive / strong group left in EU is at the mercy of their enemies willing to fight them. The amount of organised groups can be counted. Amount of GvG guilds? Counted on one hand. Amount of servers capable of forming an organised zerg? Countable on one hand. The only thing snipe accomplishes is removing a finger from that hand. your right that using stuff like pin snipe or siege as the weaker side will only make you win until the stronger side uses it. and your right that many people would like good fights. but for a fight to be good it needs to be even more or less, both sides need to risk to win and to lose. if your the stronger side and get pin sniped and sieged etc. you can do the same sure, but if you do it too much it will backfire in your opponents logging off. its all tools to make fights more even. the stronger side has more or less the last word in it, thats obvious. so its in their resposibility to keep the illusion for their opponents that they have a chance to win. you just expect the weaker side to get beaten till they improve to the level of the stronger side, but that would make the fights terrible uneven till that point is reached. further as you know many refuse to improve anyway so it might not be reached ever. so if you want contious fights, try to make them even, take risk, let your opponent abuse whatever they want as long as you can beat them still. but dont dominate them too hard if you want them to keep coming. if you dont want to purely play to win because you dont enjoy it, then dont do it and let your opponent even the fights. you are correct that playing gw2 WvW to win is rather stupid because the disparities in coverage are so great that they can make up for most player decisions during playing. but accept the mechanics in the game and let your opponents use them or use them yourself to achieve whatever you want to do in the game. it becomes an issue if people want something and dont play accordingly. like they want to win fights and dont use the means to achieve it. if they want to just have a good fight, wich involves the possibility to lose then it opens up more options. 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Etheri.5406 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > > > > ITT: too many people who played assassin's creed and take "nothing is true, everything is permitted" as their online gaming mantra. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I go in to WvW to fight other players and NPCs for WvW XP, Reward track XP, complete dailies and collect loot. Your feelings are not anywhere on my list of concerns. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are on the opposing team, I will do everything I can to defeat you, because in WvW all you are to me is walking WvW XP, Reward track XP, dailies completion and loot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - If you are fighting against two other members of my server, I will without a thought jump in to make it a 3v1 to not only help my team mates, but to collect WvW XP, track XP, dailies and loot. > > > > > > > > > > - If you are attacking any camp (mine or 3rd servers) and are going 1vs all the camp guards, I will single target you down, the if the camp is also hostile, I will kill the remaining guards and cap the camp myself - because WvW XP et al > > > > > > > > > > - If you flee a fight and fall off a cliff, get downed, and are self-healing to bring yourself back up....I DPS you down - because WvW XP et al > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can choose to play WvW any way you want, but don't presume to have the authority to tell me or anyone else how they can or can't play the game, or what you designate as 'appropriate'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because in a PvP game mode, if your primary goal isn't to defeat the enemy team in the most rapid and efficient method possible, then perhaps you're playing in the wrong game mode? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ITT: too many people trying to bring safe spaces and trigger warnings into a players vs player video game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't about safe spaces or trigger warnings, this is about basic video game ethics and respect of other players as human beings also playing a game not as enemy combatants fighting a war. This is not actually a war sorry to tell you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is also not about my personal authority over you but about practicing the simple moral principle of "do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you." Also sometimes called the Law of Reciprocity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you profess to having no sense of propriety or respect for me then neither I nor anyone else has any reason to treat you with any sort of propriety or respect either and the whole situation degenerates into this absurd "game is war" mentality where we all do anything we can think of to win including possibly things that aren't technically allowed but nonetheless hard to punish like spying and sabotage and arguably even hacking if it's not obvious or easy to police. Nothing is true everything is permitted. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And for what? Some WXP? Some loot bags? Reward track XP? Shinies and fluff, God help you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > me killing the opponent in whatever way is indeed not a real attack to that person, it is only pixels. that doesnt mean that i dont respect the other as a human being. we both agreed to play the game and the game has set rules. if i kill you within these rules you agreed upon by playing the game, then i think that is respectful. if i use a hack for that, then its not. people whispering me after i kill them, insulting me cause they didnt like the way i fight, that is not respectfull. because they choose to play a game with the options i use. > > > > > > > > i actually would prefer my opponents to use everything the game offers rather than blaming me for doing so. i just had today a funny guy, after i killed him he whispered me that i just can kill afk people because he was playing with just one hand as he had a phone call, i remembered his name he already once accused me of something similar. then he stated that my class can only kill noobs in a normal 1 vs 1. so we had a few very onesided duels that he lost. he then switched to any noob could kill anyone with such a lame build as mine and i personally cant be a decent player because i play such a lame build. he himself is ofc one of the best players and everyone knows it bla bla. i would have much prefered if he just would have used all the options in the game and defeat me if he really is the better player, but he didnt and instead just tried to attack me, my person emotionally in trying to make me feel bad, he didnt succeed but that is beside the point. i just attacked his toon, he attacked me. so who is disrespectful of the other person as a human being ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The nice thing about duels is that both participants can always openly stipulate terms ahead of the duel so that there's no doubt as to what is going to be considered fair play and what is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same can be done with any sort of arranged match like a GvG. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The difference with an impromptu fight is that one side can show up thinking the agreed upon rules are one thing while the other can show up thinking something drastically different i.e one group thinks it's going to be a fight without pin snipe and one group shows up with the express intent of just focusing the pin down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So to reiterate and slightly expand my original post pin snipe is indeed quite effective and certainly a non-bannable tactic but it's boring because it kills fights. I also think that the thought process of "this game is actually a war so I'm going to do literally whatever it takes to win" can lead to some very dark places very quickly. I would highly advise against that sort of thinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The consistent answer would be to say never under any circumstance just like what I've said with acs but I've been in the situation before with myself or a friend being pin sniped so I know the temptation to just say "go ahead and do it back." Still two wrongs do not make a right. > > > > > > > > > > > > while i do understand your point and there might be some mechanics/tactics where you will get a majority of players to agree that they are 'not fair' , it is really hard to tell unless you specifically agreed on them. the way one feels offended because of pin snipe , another feels offended by condition builds, by range builds, by anything that can run away etc. while you maybe dont pin snipe, he will see you if you play condi like you see people that pin snipe. > > > > > > if i respect every players wishes, what they deem fair, i best just join naked without weapons /traits etc. to not offend anyone. > > > > > > i mean can you make a full list of what rules i need to additionally follow aside from the games own rules, that i will be seen as fair ? by everyone? > > > > > > > > > > No but I'm not proposing a majoritarian standard of ethics. I think the golden rule is a far better standard. Do not do anything to another that you would not like done to yourself. If you don't like your pin to get sniped don't pin snipe. If you dont care then do whatever but know that whatever you do to others you legitimate being done back to you and that that road quickly leads to either no fights or boring sniping back and forth. And for what? > > > > > > > > would it be boring and no fights tho? > > > > as said above for me personally everything in the games ruleset goes. and i expect my opponents to do anything in the games ruleset, altho they often dont. you make it sound like a threat, that my opponents will do the same. yet i exactly expect that. you are the one having an issue with it, not me. > > > > if now pin is sniped in every fight it is seen as usefull, sure people can give up and then there is no fight or people improve to make it either harder to pin snipe or make it have less of an effect on them. i dont understand why you dont want to learn to deal with it and just declare it as unsportsmanlike or whatever. > > > > the golen rule is nice as long as everyone despises the same things. if everyone had an issue with pin snipe, then it would work more or less. but the moment one is okey with his pin being sniped, as they see it as a chance learn to deal with it, to improve. then the golden rule will no longer protect you from pin sniping. > > > > > > But then the whole thing degenerates into a snipe war and believe me when I say that I have sat through my fair share of snipe wars and I gotta tell you I find them to be pretty boring. > > > > ^I don't see how pinsnipe is a rational solution. How it improves ANY situation long term. It's a short term fix that screws you long term. > > > > If you're the weaker side and need pinsnipe to win... if they do the same you still lose AND make the gameplay progressively worse. > > > > If you're stronger and you use pinsnipe to win... One, why? Salt? Two, it just speeds up killing your own fights making sure you get less bags, less practise and less fun. So again, why? If it's the strategy you like to use to win, wouldn't winning fights be a good time to practise other strats? > > > > If fights are equal, it almost always promotes non-fighting and stalemates. Why would you want to AVOID equal fights where both sides can win, just to ensure that IF you fight you win? Short term it results in the feeling of being better... Long term it results in no action, less improvement and less enemies willing to compete. It also often results in full blown snipe wars. > > > > Any competitive / strong group left in EU is at the mercy of their enemies willing to fight them. The amount of organised groups can be counted. Amount of GvG guilds? Counted on one hand. Amount of servers capable of forming an organised zerg? Countable on one hand. The only thing snipe accomplishes is removing a finger from that hand. > > your right that using stuff like pin snipe or siege as the weaker side will only make you win until the stronger side uses it. > and your right that many people would like good fights. but for a fight to be good it needs to be even more or less, both sides need to risk to win and to lose. > if your the stronger side and get pin sniped and sieged etc. you can do the same sure, but if you do it too much it will backfire in your opponents logging off. > its all tools to make fights more even. the stronger side has more or less the last word in it, thats obvious. so its in their resposibility to keep the illusion for their opponents that they have a chance to win. > you just expect the weaker side to get beaten till they improve to the level of the stronger side, but that would make the fights terrible uneven till that point is reached. further as you know many refuse to improve anyway so it might not be reached ever. so if you want contious fights, try to make them even, take risk, let your opponent abuse whatever they want as long as you can beat them still. but dont dominate them too hard if you want them to keep coming. > if you dont want to purely play to win because you dont enjoy it, then dont do it and let your opponent even the fights. you are correct that playing gw2 WvW to win is rather stupid because the disparities in coverage are so great that they can make up for most player decisions during playing. but accept the mechanics in the game and let your opponents use them or use them yourself to achieve whatever you want to do in the game. it becomes an issue if people want something and dont play accordingly. like they want to win fights and dont use the means to achieve it. if they want to just have a good fight, wich involves the possibility to lose then it opens up more options. I completely agree, except it's GW2 we're talking about. Look at this thread. It's a "valid tactic". Not "hey use it to equalize fights you can't win". And frankly as @"Israel.7056" stated, you often really don't need these things. It's ok to lose a few fights. Ever since PoF, we're in a meta where whoever pushes deeper is typically at a disadvantage. The winnig side pushing - by default - will make them give you an advantage. Every tower you get, even t0, makes you walk through several chokes and sit in a lordsroom open to a million range bombs. If you lose that, it forces them to go to stronger objectives even closer to your spawn. The game is DESIGNED to progress the map to places where you get more advantages and become more likely to win. Take fight servers. There are many comms I enjoy fighting. Either of us pm eachother, we set up a group and fight often on the third servers map. The moment fights become onesided, we go karmatrain and fight around the map to equalize. Of course its the stronger side making the riskier pushes. Of course we're not going to sit there for 2 hours with one side just losing all morale completely. Neither of us have ANY interest in killing the map. Sure eventually it usually happens... Yet I had no issues having 3 hours with near constant fights on reset. Threeways where we're playing king of the hill and not once does a third side assjam. There's also comms which must win and create salt wars. The only pms are flame and salt. The gameplay is flame and salt. It almost always ends in stalemates. Over time whichever side can't win just fully avoids action and neither side is really enjoying themselves. In salt wars it's 3 hours with maybe 1/5th of the fights, because both sides are too busy making sure they have the advantage to safely fight. 15 minutes of dancing around chokes, siege and objectives with neither side ever engaging or interacting. Threeways where not a single side ever pushes, because whoever pushes another side just gets assjammed instantly and EVERY fight is just lag / assjamming. And every fight is once every 15-30 minutes of stalemating trying to find a fight for one side to get bombed by both other servers in less than 1 minute. 1 minute because it really does take that long for skills to go off :trollface: Take the situation against PPT servers. Think of those servers that build 5+ acs in T0 towers. Where does this end? In my experience it ends with 10+ acs and a 70 man zerg in their garri still barely capable of holding on to it. Literally 70 players that will suicide jump onto my siege repeatedly just to prevent me from getting into the lordsroom and kill their siege because even a T3 garri lordsroom isn't defendable due to the skill difference. And that exists because they've learned to rely on ACs so much all the players who don't enjoy afking on siege until the enemy feeds you bags has left and the ones that remain never learned how else to fight. Sound familiar? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. I'm not against creating competitive fights. I know many "fight players" are used and expect farm, but frankly if i wanted bags I'd go T1, cap SM and sit inside all day. I can show you footage of resets (not here as it'd be insta removed) and you'll see me lose quite a few fights despite (imo) having the stronger group to carry my ass due to dumb / risky pushes and me trying to improve the group. Try different strats. Try experimental stuff. Go full melee and push through some bubbles if you're that dominant. If you treat us like competitive / sport opponents I'll treat you the same. And if you demand full salt wars where you do anything and everything to win... I can play that game too. And since most players clearly prefer the salt wars, that's how i'll treat them. Funnily enough they then come here to complain about the result. Players complain about monoblobs ktraining T0 towers, while saying acs are a part of the game you should use whenever and wherever you can. Surely, if you spam 5 acs in a T0 tower you can't be suprised the enemy doesn't attack it 30v30 and waits until it's a 50v20, then just zergs you down. Because doing a 30v30 into a tower and 5 acs is suicide. Rather than progressing the map closer to your fight and having some kind of even fights, they produce a stalemate saying "hahaha, look now you can't win". But all it really does is ensure a stalemate until both sides are so mismatched that they CAN win. Resorting to these things is something you do if you have no other alternatives left, in my opinion. If it's a default answer "valid strategy" to avoid losing, you just stop yourself from improving and prevent yourself from getting fair fights. You hope that the enemy -which is beating you- is somehow going to repeatedly suicide into you which rarely happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > boring is again very personal. Yeah I don't think so. I think that we're all pretty much the same with some minor variations. I don't see humans as being so infinitely varied and radically different from one another that one cannot make at least general statements about common preference. > if you despise the sniping to begin with, it will be harder for you to improve on it both in doing it yourself and being less affected by it. Doesn't follow. I can learn about something but still find it to be completely despicable. >i am certain if you truely want to, you can improve to a point were the opponents can no longer use pin sniping as a powerfull tool. but you dont want to go that route, because its too 'boring'. guess then you have to live with it. Yeah but I don't think anyone should have to. I think you misunderstand the framing of this thread. The OP wasn't posed as a practical question ("is there a simple way to deal with pin snipe?") but rather as a question of ethics ("do you pin snipe back if someone pin snipes first?") to which I say probably yes but two wrongs don't make a right and I think pin sniping is wrong in and of itself and that no one should do it. You're saying "well it's part of the game you should just learn to deal with it." Ok fine but that doesn't answer the question of whether it's right or wrong to do unless you believe that anything that can be done should be done in which case I completely disagree with that ethical principle. I don't think that just because something can be done that it should be done. I don't think one can derive an ought from an is. This is the exact same discussion as the ac discussion. I'm not saying that people cannot build acs I'm saying that they shouldn't. I'm not saying here that people cannot pin snipe I'm saying that they shouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraljevo.2801 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Don't do it. Most coms these days ragequit after a few wipes. You deprive everyone of fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueMelody.6398 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Etheri.5406" said: > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > > > > ITT: too many people who played assassin's creed and take "nothing is true, everything is permitted" as their online gaming mantra. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I go in to WvW to fight other players and NPCs for WvW XP, Reward track XP, complete dailies and collect loot. Your feelings are not anywhere on my list of concerns. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are on the opposing team, I will do everything I can to defeat you, because in WvW all you are to me is walking WvW XP, Reward track XP, dailies completion and loot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - If you are fighting against two other members of my server, I will without a thought jump in to make it a 3v1 to not only help my team mates, but to collect WvW XP, track XP, dailies and loot. > > > > > > > > > > - If you are attacking any camp (mine or 3rd servers) and are going 1vs all the camp guards, I will single target you down, the if the camp is also hostile, I will kill the remaining guards and cap the camp myself - because WvW XP et al > > > > > > > > > > - If you flee a fight and fall off a cliff, get downed, and are self-healing to bring yourself back up....I DPS you down - because WvW XP et al > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can choose to play WvW any way you want, but don't presume to have the authority to tell me or anyone else how they can or can't play the game, or what you designate as 'appropriate'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because in a PvP game mode, if your primary goal isn't to defeat the enemy team in the most rapid and efficient method possible, then perhaps you're playing in the wrong game mode? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ITT: too many people trying to bring safe spaces and trigger warnings into a players vs player video game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't about safe spaces or trigger warnings, this is about basic video game ethics and respect of other players as human beings also playing a game not as enemy combatants fighting a war. This is not actually a war sorry to tell you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is also not about my personal authority over you but about practicing the simple moral principle of "do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you." Also sometimes called the Law of Reciprocity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you profess to having no sense of propriety or respect for me then neither I nor anyone else has any reason to treat you with any sort of propriety or respect either and the whole situation degenerates into this absurd "game is war" mentality where we all do anything we can think of to win including possibly things that aren't technically allowed but nonetheless hard to punish like spying and sabotage and arguably even hacking if it's not obvious or easy to police. Nothing is true everything is permitted. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And for what? Some WXP? Some loot bags? Reward track XP? Shinies and fluff, God help you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > me killing the opponent in whatever way is indeed not a real attack to that person, it is only pixels. that doesnt mean that i dont respect the other as a human being. we both agreed to play the game and the game has set rules. if i kill you within these rules you agreed upon by playing the game, then i think that is respectful. if i use a hack for that, then its not. people whispering me after i kill them, insulting me cause they didnt like the way i fight, that is not respectfull. because they choose to play a game with the options i use. > > > > > > > > i actually would prefer my opponents to use everything the game offers rather than blaming me for doing so. i just had today a funny guy, after i killed him he whispered me that i just can kill afk people because he was playing with just one hand as he had a phone call, i remembered his name he already once accused me of something similar. then he stated that my class can only kill noobs in a normal 1 vs 1. so we had a few very onesided duels that he lost. he then switched to any noob could kill anyone with such a lame build as mine and i personally cant be a decent player because i play such a lame build. he himself is ofc one of the best players and everyone knows it bla bla. i would have much prefered if he just would have used all the options in the game and defeat me if he really is the better player, but he didnt and instead just tried to attack me, my person emotionally in trying to make me feel bad, he didnt succeed but that is beside the point. i just attacked his toon, he attacked me. so who is disrespectful of the other person as a human being ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The nice thing about duels is that both participants can always openly stipulate terms ahead of the duel so that there's no doubt as to what is going to be considered fair play and what is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same can be done with any sort of arranged match like a GvG. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The difference with an impromptu fight is that one side can show up thinking the agreed upon rules are one thing while the other can show up thinking something drastically different i.e one group thinks it's going to be a fight without pin snipe and one group shows up with the express intent of just focusing the pin down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So to reiterate and slightly expand my original post pin snipe is indeed quite effective and certainly a non-bannable tactic but it's boring because it kills fights. I also think that the thought process of "this game is actually a war so I'm going to do literally whatever it takes to win" can lead to some very dark places very quickly. I would highly advise against that sort of thinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The consistent answer would be to say never under any circumstance just like what I've said with acs but I've been in the situation before with myself or a friend being pin sniped so I know the temptation to just say "go ahead and do it back." Still two wrongs do not make a right. > > > > > > > > > > > > while i do understand your point and there might be some mechanics/tactics where you will get a majority of players to agree that they are 'not fair' , it is really hard to tell unless you specifically agreed on them. the way one feels offended because of pin snipe , another feels offended by condition builds, by range builds, by anything that can run away etc. while you maybe dont pin snipe, he will see you if you play condi like you see people that pin snipe. > > > > > > if i respect every players wishes, what they deem fair, i best just join naked without weapons /traits etc. to not offend anyone. > > > > > > i mean can you make a full list of what rules i need to additionally follow aside from the games own rules, that i will be seen as fair ? by everyone? > > > > > > > > > > No but I'm not proposing a majoritarian standard of ethics. I think the golden rule is a far better standard. Do not do anything to another that you would not like done to yourself. If you don't like your pin to get sniped don't pin snipe. If you dont care then do whatever but know that whatever you do to others you legitimate being done back to you and that that road quickly leads to either no fights or boring sniping back and forth. And for what? > > > > > > > > would it be boring and no fights tho? > > > > as said above for me personally everything in the games ruleset goes. and i expect my opponents to do anything in the games ruleset, altho they often dont. you make it sound like a threat, that my opponents will do the same. yet i exactly expect that. you are the one having an issue with it, not me. > > > > if now pin is sniped in every fight it is seen as usefull, sure people can give up and then there is no fight or people improve to make it either harder to pin snipe or make it have less of an effect on them. i dont understand why you dont want to learn to deal with it and just declare it as unsportsmanlike or whatever. > > > > the golen rule is nice as long as everyone despises the same things. if everyone had an issue with pin snipe, then it would work more or less. but the moment one is okey with his pin being sniped, as they see it as a chance learn to deal with it, to improve. then the golden rule will no longer protect you from pin sniping. > > > > > > But then the whole thing degenerates into a snipe war and believe me when I say that I have sat through my fair share of snipe wars and I gotta tell you I find them to be pretty boring. > > > > ^I don't see how pinsnipe is a rational solution. How it improves ANY situation long term. It's a short term fix that screws you long term. > > > > If you're the weaker side and need pinsnipe to win... if they do the same you still lose AND make the gameplay progressively worse. > > > > If you're stronger and you use pinsnipe to win... One, why? Salt? Two, it just speeds up killing your own fights making sure you get less bags, less practise and less fun. So again, why? If it's the strategy you like to use to win, wouldn't winning fights be a good time to practise other strats? > > > > If fights are equal, it almost always promotes non-fighting and stalemates. Why would you want to AVOID equal fights where both sides can win, just to ensure that IF you fight you win? Short term it results in the feeling of being better... Long term it results in no action, less improvement and less enemies willing to compete. It also often results in full blown snipe wars. > > > > Any competitive / strong group left in EU is at the mercy of their enemies willing to fight them. The amount of organised groups can be counted. Amount of GvG guilds? Counted on one hand. Amount of servers capable of forming an organised zerg? Countable on one hand. The only thing snipe accomplishes is removing a finger from that hand. > > and your right that many people would like good fights. but for a fight to be good it needs to be even more or less, both sides need to risk to win and to lose. The issue is when the fights are even, yet one side insists on pin sniping because they'd rather win dirty than even risk a loss to an equivalent opponent. > it becomes an issue if people want something and dont play accordingly. like they want to win fights and dont use the means to achieve it. Also known as not using "any means possible to win", aka "ethics", aka "sportsmanship" -- concepts which seem to be getting more dated by the hour. This is a game, and I will subscribe to ethics and sportsmanship, the golden rule and the notion of fair play, and those of you who sneer at the idea are not going to corrupt me into doing otherwise. My self-respect is worth far more than any encounter in a game. When you come across people clearly duelling, do you jump in with both feet and stomp the one enemy? After all, "red is dead", there is nothing in the rules that says you have to respect people duelling, and a bag is a bag, right? If you subscribe to the idea that "anything goes" and there is no ethics in war, yet you don't jump on top of duellers whenever you see them, then there is some hypocrisy going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victory.2879 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 On the basis of some of these arguments then you shouldn't attack back lines either, as that's clearly wrong. Picking on those without the same armor as the front line! OMG! unfair! You should only attack those with the greatest armor! Wait, terrain advantage, unfair! Siege? Unfair! Whaaaaaaa. The issue is that too many people don't bother to log onto voice comms (due to some 'elites' toxic chat/comments/demanding set builds or you're 'noob') so those servers have become totally reliant on following the pin, then cry when the pin goes down and all start running away to save their pixels, acting like headless chickens, because they have been told by the 'elites' for so long to shut up, do as your told and follow the pin. You reap what you sow. I've had some great leaderless, no voice comms fights against organised guild groups where the guild group outnumbered us and kept coming back and being wiped - because as soon as their comm went down they were trained to be brain dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 > @"Victory.2879" said: > On the basis of some of these arguments then you shouldn't attack back lines either, as that's clearly wrong. Picking on those without the same armor as the front line! OMG! unfair! You should only attack those with the greatest armor! Wait, terrain advantage, unfair! Siege? Unfair! Whaaaaaaa. A reductio of a strawman well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 edit : removed wall of text cause off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > if you despise the sniping to begin with, it will be harder for you to improve on it both in doing it yourself and being less affected by it. Why? > i am certain if you truely want to, you can improve to a point were the opponents can no longer use pin sniping as a powerfull tool. but you dont want to go that route, because its too 'boring'. guess then you have to live with it. Again I think you're missing the point of this discussion. > i am not saying what can be done should be done. i am saying what can be done should be expected. Ok but that's not being disputed here. I'm not saying that I don't expect pin snipe. I'm saying that pin snipe is wrong to do. Not that you shouldn't expect it or that you cannot do it, just that it's wrong to do. > you yourself can either abuse every mechanic the game offers or dont do it because of whatever personal reasons you have. But is either choice preferable to the other? > but i expect my opponents to use every mechanic. I do too because I've been playing MMOs for years now and I know how far people will go to win but that doesn't make it right. > you refusing to use it or complaining about it wont make them stop using it. and no matter how anet changes the game there will be allways stuff you dont like in the game unless you play with 'everything to win', so you allways should expect everything regardless if you are willing to use it yourself or not. Again none of this is in dispute. > i am not in position to tell the OP what to seek in the game, i can just give him advise on how to get what he seeks if i know what he wants. But it seems that what he's asking for is a value judgment which means giving value neutral answers like "it's part of the game" doesn't really make sense. Ofcourse it's part of the game, that's not in question. The question is whether or not you think it's right or wrong and why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > Again none of this is in dispute. you were the one stating pin sniping is effective but boring and a game is about fun, not about winning. that was not part of the OPs question, yet a part were i dont agree with you. and i admit i might have dragged this way too long off topic with you, should have been more precise from the start. a game is allways about winning but many play it mostly for fun, pin sniping is only efficient as long as you are vulnerable to it and not many bother to change anything about it aswell and boring is up for debate, boring to you. i answered the OPs question in my first post here, i think you can change your play in a way that you are less vulnerable to pin sniping, so if i had an issue with it i would just change it. just sniping back doesnt solve my issue. > @"Israel.7056" said: > But it seems that what he's asking for is a value judgment which means giving value neutral answers like "it's part of the game" doesn't really make sense. Ofcourse it's part of the game, that's not in question. _The question is whether or not you think it's right or wrong and why_. nope the question is if i would snipe back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: >you were the one stating pin sniping is effective but boring and a game is about fun, not about winning. Yeah and that was a bad answer to the question because it implies that if it weren't boring and didn't ruin the fun it would be ok. In other words it was a pragmatic rationale. I think it does ruin the fun but in truth it's not the real reason I personally think it's wrong to do. > nope the question is if i would snipe back. Ok but whether you say yes or no there must be a ethical rationale. If you say that games do not know right from wrong they only know effective and not effective and that gaming is essentially all about winning (which is the Sirlin position you have linked on your signature) and that all that matters to you is the practical result then that is itself an ethical framework. It's called pragmatism or sometimes consequentialism and it seems to be in line with your other posts about what works and what doesn't. The problem I have with pragmatism is that its fundamentally ends oriented rather than means oriented. So hypothetically any means can be justified as long as it's believed to lead to the desired end and it doesn't treat any means or end as apriori better or worse than any other. So therefore the question of whether or not you snipe back is simply an issue of desired outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 > @"Israel.7056" said: > So therefore the question of whether or not you snipe back is simply an issue of desired outcome. correct as for: > @"Israel.7056" said: > So hypothetically any means can be justified as long as it's believed to lead to the desired end and it doesn't treat any means or end as apriori better or worse than any other. that sounds a little worse than it actually is. not every mean is justified that leads to a desired end, if it also leads to undesired sideeffects. the issue in gaming is often that people want to win, yet they want do it sportsmanlike, with 'skill' etc. wich means they do not choose the optimal mean to reach the end 'win'. wich is not really an issue, because they still can win to a degree and get pretty far. but that is then not enough for many of those, they want more than they can get by their means. if they option for the means that will make them win the last few fights, then they will as a sideeffect lose their goal to be sportsmanlike, to act with 'skill'. i only want people to really think about what is important to them and achieve it, be happy with it. if you cant beat the ones that only want to win, so be it, thats not the goal you did set for yourself then. but if you realize winning against them is more important to you than being sportsmanlike, then you maybe should for your own good change the way you play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueMelody.6398 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > So therefore the question of whether or not you snipe back is simply an issue of desired outcome. > correct > > as for: > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > So hypothetically any means can be justified as long as it's believed to lead to the desired end and it doesn't treat any means or end as apriori better or worse than any other. > that sounds a little worse than it actually is. not every mean is justified that leads to a desired end, if it also leads to undesired sideeffects. > the issue in gaming is often that people want to win, yet they want do it sportsmanlike, with 'skill' etc. wich means they do not choose the optimal mean to reach the end 'win'. wich is not really an issue, because they still can win to a degree and get pretty far. but that is then not enough for many of those, they want more than they can get by their means. if they option for the means that will make them win the last few fights, then they will as a sideeffect lose their goal to be sportsmanlike, to act with 'skill'. i only want people to really think about what is important to them and achieve it, be happy with it. if you cant beat the ones that only want to win, so be it, thats not the goal you did set for yourself then. but if you realize winning against them is more important to you than being sportsmanlike, then you maybe should for your own good change the way you play. This kind of thinking is precisely why the bad guys win, why those with ethical constraints lose out to those with an "anything goes" mentality, the "winning is the only thing" viewpoint that allows low-handed/dirty tactics to carry the day when the opponent is unwilling to stoop to the same level. It's why corrupt politicians win elections, why wars are manufactured to pad someone's bottom line at the expense of thousands or even millions of people's lives. The needs of the one (namely, me) outweight the needs of the many (everyone not named me). This is the mentality/world view I have been fighting against my entire life, and will continue to fight against to my last breath. The means matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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