"You're not Druid/Chrono? Bye bye then..."

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"yann.1946" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > > It's not god tier. It's just that all other support builds are trash tier.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > I really think that is a fair statement. Look at the other supports, you have high dps supports that only offer a few boons/buffs like the old ps warrior, renegade giving alacrity, and I guess scourge giving barrier. Then you have the low dps supports who are doing healing like druid, heal rev, and firebrand.

> > > > >

> > > > > Then you have chrono, a low dps support with no healing, or a zero dps support with non-neglible but also not amazing healing. There really arn't any other classes that are very comparable to it. Not just in terms of support output, but also in the ability to sacrifice personal dps to boost support.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Thrag and Astral have it right.

> > > >

> > > > First off, to anyone saying 100% boon up-time is overpowered I have this to say:

> > > >

> > > > **As long as 100% boon up-time is required for optimal performance, raid setups WILL achieve it no matter if by using 1, 2 or 4 classes (or more). Harping on that Chrono is to strong changes nothing here. Nerfing chrono will do nothing besides make the meta more restrictive since more slots have to go towards supports for 100% boon up-time.**

> > > >

> > > > That being said, there is multiple ways to approach this:

> > > >

> > > > 1.) bring more supports up to chronos level (with the downsides please. Unlike popular opinion, chrono does not bring decent dps when in a support role. Have other supports work in a similar way if need be).

> > > >

> > > > 2.) increase the amount of supports required in raids (which would require nerfing chrono). Overall the meta again becomes more restrictive, not an ideal solution but it would definitely bring more balance or potentially bring more balance

> > > >

> > > > 3.) rework required boons by either removing boons entirely from the equation or making them overall a non-factor by making it even easier to have 100% up-time on required boons. Either approach would work, both approaches would reduce the amount of depth the group composition has significantly since a factor gets removed

> > > >

> > > > Chrono is NOT overpowered, it's mandatory in ideal setups. That is a significant difference term and balance wise. Being overpowered actually requires you to be able to compare the performance to other classes. There is no other support next to chrono. All other classes which provide similar boons vastly outperform chrono in other areas, only that those areas are not support related (see Firebrand or Revenant) thus they fail at meeting the criteria of being a pure support.

> > > >

> > > > In a way Chrono is in a similar boat as warrior. Warrior is/was being taken along for the unique banners even while not being a top performer in certain areas (this actually changed with warrior seeing some buffs). Warriors were not overpowered, they are mandatory. Again here too there is a difference between both terms.

> > > >

> > > > If you want chrono to not be mandatory, that is fine. But please adjust your arguments and terminology accordingly.

> > >

> > > This argument is a little silly tho. The only reason 100% boon uptime is nessecary in an ideal setup is because the tradeoff is worth it. If you make it so the tradeoff isn't worth it, it wouldn't be nessecary.

> >

> > That's what I said wasn't it?

> >

> > See point 3.

>

> Not really.

>

> I'm merely countering the argument that chrono isn't overpowered because 100% boon uptime is nessecary. The boon uptime is nessecary because chrono is that overpowered.

>

> Look at it differently. If chrono would do 25k dps everyone would say it's overpowered. But the same argument still holds namely their is no direct comparison to another class.

 

If chrono were nerfed right now, firebrand and revenant would take over. The fact that 100% boon up-time is required is not unique to chrono.

 

Arguing about boons and their value should be done separate from class balance discussions OR one has to at least take this into account.

 

Boon up-time is necessary because currently having 2-4 slots designated to 100% alacrity and quickness will increase overall output for a 10 man squad.

 

Following the same notion, if boons were to be shared with 10 people, chrono spots in raids would drop to 1 from 2. Mandatory spots would drop even though balance wise chrono would theoretically be even stronger. See how those 2 aspects need to be viewed separately?

[yann.1946]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > > > It's not god tier. It's just that all other support builds are trash tier.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > I really think that is a fair statement. Look at the other supports, you have high dps supports that only offer a few boons/buffs like the old ps warrior, renegade giving alacrity, and I guess scourge giving barrier. Then you have the low dps supports who are doing healing like druid, heal rev, and firebrand.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Then you have chrono, a low dps support with no healing, or a zero dps support with non-neglible but also not amazing healing. There really arn't any other classes that are very comparable to it. Not just in terms of support output, but also in the ability to sacrifice personal dps to boost support.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Thrag and Astral have it right.

> > > > >

> > > > > First off, to anyone saying 100% boon up-time is overpowered I have this to say:

> > > > >

> > > > > **As long as 100% boon up-time is required for optimal performance, raid setups WILL achieve it no matter if by using 1, 2 or 4 classes (or more). Harping on that Chrono is to strong changes nothing here. Nerfing chrono will do nothing besides make the meta more restrictive since more slots have to go towards supports for 100% boon up-time.**

> > > > >

> > > > > That being said, there is multiple ways to approach this:

> > > > >

> > > > > 1.) bring more supports up to chronos level (with the downsides please. Unlike popular opinion, chrono does not bring decent dps when in a support role. Have other supports work in a similar way if need be).

> > > > >

> > > > > 2.) increase the amount of supports required in raids (which would require nerfing chrono). Overall the meta again becomes more restrictive, not an ideal solution but it would definitely bring more balance or potentially bring more balance

> > > > >

> > > > > 3.) rework required boons by either removing boons entirely from the equation or making them overall a non-factor by making it even easier to have 100% up-time on required boons. Either approach would work, both approaches would reduce the amount of depth the group composition has significantly since a factor gets removed

> > > > >

> > > > > Chrono is NOT overpowered, it's mandatory in ideal setups. That is a significant difference term and balance wise. Being overpowered actually requires you to be able to compare the performance to other classes. There is no other support next to chrono. All other classes which provide similar boons vastly outperform chrono in other areas, only that those areas are not support related (see Firebrand or Revenant) thus they fail at meeting the criteria of being a pure support.

> > > > >

> > > > > In a way Chrono is in a similar boat as warrior. Warrior is/was being taken along for the unique banners even while not being a top performer in certain areas (this actually changed with warrior seeing some buffs). Warriors were not overpowered, they are mandatory. Again here too there is a difference between both terms.

> > > > >

> > > > > If you want chrono to not be mandatory, that is fine. But please adjust your arguments and terminology accordingly.

> > > >

> > > > This argument is a little silly tho. The only reason 100% boon uptime is nessecary in an ideal setup is because the tradeoff is worth it. If you make it so the tradeoff isn't worth it, it wouldn't be nessecary.

> > >

> > > That's what I said wasn't it?

> > >

> > > See point 3.

> >

> > Not really.

> >

> > I'm merely countering the argument that chrono isn't overpowered because 100% boon uptime is nessecary. The boon uptime is nessecary because chrono is that overpowered.

> >

> > Look at it differently. If chrono would do 25k dps everyone would say it's overpowered. But the same argument still holds namely their is no direct comparison to another class.

>

> If chrono were nerfed right now, firebrand and revenant would take over. The fact that 100% boon up-time is required is not unique to chrono.

>

> Arguing about boons and their value should be done separate from class balance discussions OR one has to at least take this into account.

>

> Boon up-time is necessary because currently having 2-4 slots designated to 100% alacrity and quickness will increase overall output for a 10 man squad.

>

> Following the same notion, if boons were to be shared with 10 people, chrono spots in raids would drop to 1 from 2. Mandatory spots would drop even though balance wise chrono would theoretically be even stronger. See how those 2 aspects need to be viewed separately?

 

We'll firebrand was introduced because they wanted an alternative to chrono.

 

The reason revenant got alacrity was because they wanted to give alternatives.

 

I'm not saying nerfing chrono would make raiding more pleasant.

But arguing the class is not broken because their is no competition is just a horrible way to try to balance.

 

[nsleep.7839]

The class is broken, the raid dps the boons provided by a Chrono produce is superior to the highest dps class benchmark, it varies from class to class, but for most classes about half of the dps comes from the permanent quickness and alacrity. On top of that a Chrono has top tier crowd control, break bar potential, defenses (which some can be shared) and a huge arsenal of other gimmicks such as portal, reflects, high mobility and mid tier healing if necessary.

 

It is literally the role of a tank and a buffer with very heavy support skills, being the literal best at all these three things, in a game where some classes barely bring one thing to contribute to the group. The worst part is, the Mesmer base kit and what the Chrono offers for these roles are so ingrained into how the class work that nerfing it without breaking it in the other direction probably making it into a trash tier profession.

 

But don't try to pretend that being the best tank, the best support and the best utility, specially with how much damage buffs represent in this game isn't broken. If you want any proof of this think on how much removing each profession from PvE in the game would affect the comp and how many people are needed to substitute those or how much would be lost.

 

Remove Warrior - You lose some strong CC options and banners. Banners have no substitute.

Remove Guardian - Nothing of value is lost.

Remove Revenant - Mainly hands kiting, which can be done by Tempests, Engis/Scrappers, Soulbeasts and Guardians/Firebrands.

Remove Ranger - This one actually hurts a bit, it has disgusting amounts of cc, might, fury, heals and spirits. Spirits can't be replaced, but might, fury and heals can be done by some other classes and maintained by Chronos, not as well as by a Druid, but it can be done.

Remove Thief - Nothing of value is lost.

Remove Engi - Nothing of value is lost.

Remove Elementalist - Nothing of value is lost.

Remove Necro - The only thing that actually matters here is the loss of Epidemic.

Remove Mesmer - Oh boy! This one is hot! First of all, people would need to relearn how to tank in this game, no class can stand in place and NOT take hits as well as a Mesmer. Second, Quickness AND Alacrity cannot be replaced by a single profession you need at least two to fill this hole. Lastly, you lose Focus 4, lots of strong CC and every gimmick that can be used to speedrun involving consecutive blinks and portals, groups would be forced to go through the cave in wing 3, just think about this for a second. The loss of Aegis/Stab share doesn't really matter as a Firebrand would be one of the classes susbstituting the Chrono.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"nsleep.7839" said:

> The class is broken, the raid dps the boons provided by a Chrono produce is superior to the highest dps class benchmark, it varies from class to class, but for most classes about half of the dps comes from the permanent quickness and alacrity. On top of that a Chrono has top tier crowd control, break bar potential, defenses (which some can be shared) and a huge arsenal of other gimmicks such as portal, reflects, high mobility and mid tier healing if necessary.

 

No one is disputing that chrono does not bring a ton of things which are directly of use in a raid pve environment. Interesting enough, once you look into other game modes where more of a classes kit is being used, chrono loses its unique top spot.

 

> @"nsleep.7839" said:

>

> It is literally the role of a tank and a buffer with very heavy support skills, being the literal best at all these three things, in a game where some classes barely bring one thing to contribute to the group. The worst part is, the Mesmer base kit and what the Chrono offers for these roles are so ingrained into how the class work that nerfing it without breaking it in the other direction probably making it into a trash tier profession.

 

Agreed so if it's impossible or near impossible to change chrono or base mesmer without removing the class from the game, wouldn't it make more sense to provide 1-2 classes with similar performance in the areas support? Firebrand supports outperform chrono in just about any area outside of pve raids because there the dps becomes of a bigger factor and their survivability group support (see WvW) which is simply of no use in a pve raid environment.

 

> @"nsleep.7839" said:

>

> But don't try to pretend that being the best tank, the best support and the best utility, specially with how much damage buffs represent in this game isn't broken. If you want any proof of this think on how much removing each profession from PvE in the game would affect the comp and how many people are needed to substitute those or how much would be lost.

 

Chrono isn't the best tank, there are classes who outperform chrono as tank. The reason why those are not used is because tanking alone is not important enough that you need a dedicated tank. Chrono is a very good tank WHILE losing almost nothing in his ability to perform as main support.

 

> @"nsleep.7839" said:

>

> Remove Warrior - You lose some strong CC options and banners. Banners have no substitute.

> Remove Guardian - Nothing of value is lost.

> Remove Revenant - Mainly hands kiting, which can be done by Tempests, Engis/Scrappers, Soulbeasts and Guardians/Firebrands.

> Remove Ranger - This one actually hurts a bit, it has disgusting amounts of cc, might, fury, heals and spirits. Spirits can't be replaced, but might, fury and heals can be done by some other classes and maintained by Chronos, not as well as by a Druid, but it can be done.

> Remove Thief - Nothing of value is lost.

> Remove Engi - Nothing of value is lost.

> Remove Elementalist - Nothing of value is lost.

> Remove Necro - The only thing that actually matters here is the loss of Epidemic.

> Remove Mesmer - Oh boy! This one is hot! First of all, people would need to relearn how to tank in this game, no class can stand in place and NOT take hits as well as a Mesmer. Second, Quickness AND Alacrity cannot be replaced by a single profession you need at least two to fill this hole. Lastly, you lose Focus 4, lots of strong CC and every gimmick that can be used to speedrun involving consecutive blinks and portals, groups would be forced to go through the cave in wing 3, just think about this for a second. The loss of Aegis/Stab share doesn't really matter as a Firebrand would be one of the classes susbstituting the Chrono.

 

Yes, removing THE ONLY SUPPORT CLASS, will have the biggest effect when all other roles are interchangeable. Who would have guessed. This is not about removing a class from the setup, it's about bringing alternatives to said class, just like all the other classes in their roles are right now (except for warrior banners).

 

You are literally confirming what I said earlier only that your approach to this issue is: RWAR MUST NERF ALL CAUSE BALANCE. Instead of a reasonable approach of allowing more alternatives to chrono thus not creating a more rigid meta.

[Malediktus.9250]

Chrono mains defending their godlike powers. Who would have thought. At least this is good for some laughs.

 

Chrono is not the only support class, it just so powerful that the alternatives are lightyears away from being meta. Yes, there is also druid, but balance patches started to make it less used in fractals (3rd dps slot instead) and raids (1 druid is enough).

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> Chrono mains defending their godlike powers. Who would have thought. At least this is good for some laughs.

>

> Chrono is not the only support class, it just so powerful that the alternatives are lightyears away from being meta. Yes, there is also druid, but balance patches started to make it less used in fractals (3rd dps slot instead) and raids (1 druid is enough).

 

I have 23 characters and 11+ full ascended ascended equiped, 6 characters fully raid geared and played and 6k+ magnetite shards.

 

Yes, I absolutely must have chrono remain in its state... Try again.

 

Most other support classes bring heavy healing and/or damage. Both of those aspects are not required as much as permanent alacrity and quickness and are way more useful in other game modes. Those are not pure supports.

[Raizel.8175]

The only reason druid is still meta are spirits as unique buff anyway and even in that regard, druid is being pushed out - at least in fractals -, since SlBs can take at least one spirit without dps-loss. (In that regard: warrior is not a support-build, it is a dps-build that brings unique buffs that are not affected by concentration and thus can be taken on dps-builds as well - that's just like ranger-spirits.) Without spirits, druids wouldn't be meta anymore since chrono can offer the same boons and even rudimentary healing/condi-cleanse. Malediktus is right here: It's not that there are no other support builds, it's that chrono is lightyears ahead.

 

I also don't understand the dps-argument brought up here. If you want to support efficiently, you need specific support-gear including runes, sigils and food. Any possible support build that's going down that path will sacrifice its personal dps since the game is heavily gear-dependant. Have you seen the dps a healing herald can bring? Have you seen the dps a druid can provide? It's basically zero. The difference isn't that significant - true - but of all the support builds, chrono still has the highest dps-potential.

 

Some random thoughts of mine:

 

Chrono is extremely flawed game-design-wise and undermines actual teamplay since it does too many things too well. You could say that it would be healthy to heavily nerf chaos-chrono, but that will probably lead to nothing and will only enforce druid as meta-healer. One of the basic problems are alacrity and quickness. Support-builds should have to decide for either or - not both - to enable players to create support-couples. The only support-couple we currently have is Renegade/Firebrand. That would also mean though that druid-spirits need to be nerfed if you were to give druid access to perma-quickness to couple it with a potential chronos perma-alacrity. Tempest also needs access to one of these and ArenaNet needs to create another support build with access to the buff Tempest can't provide to create a third support-couple. By design, the members of these pairings then could be interchangable, leading to a lot more support-diversity.

 

This still leaves us with the ridiculous tool-kit chrono has access to. I honestly don't know how to balance chronos huge mobility - it's probably not really possible. But it should be possible to adjust several support-builds utilities/weapon-skills to at least have a decent alternative to stuff like feedback, focus-pull and also stuff like boon-rip. This lastly leaves us with cc. Moa should be heavily nerfed. 1k defiance bar damage - 2k if you continuum split Moa - is just ridiculous and undermines actual teamplay. Besides doing stuff like "1st Moa - 2nd Moa", there is basically no cc-management whatsoever. Moa should at the very least be nerfed to 500 points defiance bar damage which still would be insanely powerful with 1k damage if you continuum split it.

[Madara.7435]

1. somenone once told me you can beat raids without a meta comp. anyone ever thought about that? Just saying...

2. yes chrono is op from a pve support perspective. anet was kind enough to give us options on the support side, and they all have their own strengths -> are somewhat on the same level. but if there is one class that can just do everything on its own, who needs the rest? Nerfing support chrono into oblivion will not help, changing it to make some space for other supports would be nice to see.

But who am I to talk? I dont raid because of reasons like 1 and 2.

[segman.3560]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > Chrono mains defending their godlike powers. Who would have thought. At least this is good for some laughs.

> >

> > Chrono is not the only support class, it just so powerful that the alternatives are lightyears away from being meta. Yes, there is also druid, but balance patches started to make it less used in fractals (3rd dps slot instead) and raids (1 druid is enough).

>

> I have 23 characters and 11+ full ascended ascended equiped, 6 characters fully raid geared and played and 6k+ magnetite shards.

>

> Yes, I absolutely must have chrono remain in its state... Try again.

>

> Most other support classes bring heavy healing and/or damage. Both of those aspects are not required as much as permanent alacrity and quickness and are way more useful in other game modes. Those are not pure supports.

 

Chrono can be replaced by suppor fb and rev. And 2 of them together are still inferior to chrono.

[tontonUB.4687]

Mesmer is an internal tool class. They just forgot to delete it before release. Nothing to do now, with all those real life mesmer / chrono / mirage being able to at last play their real life role in a game. Kinda the same pathologic as the jedi syndrom, in some other mmo's.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> Really? A half decent chrono (or 2 in case of raids) makes everything much easier. Ever raided with bad or no chronos? The difference is like night and day.

Ever raided with bad healers? Or with bad dps? It's the same.

Moreover, if you change both chrono slots to dps, the raid might go harder, but if you're decent, you wil still be able to finish it. Change the druid to dps though, and you will most likely wipe, at least on some bosses.

 

> They just can do too much with the same build and barely sacrifice anything (still do at least twice the dps of a druid).

Druids do give out really good healing in addition to their boons, though (before you mention minstrel chrono, remember than its dps is _worse_ than druids')

 

> And druid is already kinda powerful even though meta groups no longer use it in raids (3rd dps slot is better after the last few balance patches) and in raids you only use one healer slot in good groups.

Make chrono give out boons to 10-man groups and people will start using only one as well.

 

> I think having 100% boon uptimes like currently possible is bad for the game. It should be almost impossible (= only with tremendous sacrifices in other places) to keep up 100% fury, 25 might, alacrity and quickness at the same time. You should have to make choices and use the boons when they would be most impactful.

Reduce it enough, and noone will take full support builds anymore, because they simply won't be worth it. Also notice, that the raid content is balanced around assumption that you _will_ have those perma boons. Nerf boon generation, and you will need to nerf the content to compensate as well.

Sure, people will be running raids with no dedicated boon support then. It will definitely simplify things - just take 1 warrior, 1 druid and stack 8 dps. Not sure though if that's what raiders would really want.

 

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > Face it, Chrono as support-build is downright broken. It does nearly everything besides damage far too well. It's Chrono that is utterly broken; it's not that the other support-builds are trash. Especially usability and reliability are huge factors - the Chrono/Druid combo simply outshines other possible combinations like Renegade/Firebrand. Chrono is god-tier in terms of support.

> > Face it, there is simply no other true support build in the game - no other class/build that is being taken solely on the basis of support it offers. All other support options are either supposed to also do something else (dps or healing), or are taken primarily for their other functions, and the support options they offer are secondary.

> > At some point banner warrior was almost at this point as well, but even then it was expected it would be doing some damage as well.

> > That's why Chrono outshines all the competition - because the competition simply does not exist.

>

> That's just wrong. If you want decent support-capabilities, you also need the corresponding gear since your function as whole is heavily gear-based. With support-gear, you literally won't do much damage at all - just like Chrono and Druid. Druid is also a support-build besides Chrono - it provides might, fury, unique boons through spirits and of course healing - basic support-functions. The same applies to builds like Auramancer, Quickbrand, Healing Firebrand or Support-Renegade. The problem is that these builds are totally disregarded simply because Chrono is utterly broken and provides everything. There is competition - Chrono just outshines it by dimensions.

All those builds (besides Chrono) you mentioned have to do at least one more thing in order to be considered useful - either healing or dps. Their boon support is not good enough on their own. If druid wasn't healing, for example, then either they would not be taken at all, or their support options (spotter, spirits, might) would be transferred to dps classes. If druid had no boon support however, their spot would still be taken by a healer.

There simply is _no_ pure boon support build in the game besides chrono. Thus, there's no competition.

 

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> Chrono mains defending their godlike powers.

The only chrono i play is the open world shatter dps build. And it's not even in my top 5. Try again.

 

 

 

[Vinceman.4572]

If Anet guts chrono - especially boons - raids will be mastered by extremely fewer people than they are now and that's not what the more dedicated raid community should wish since it excludes a lot of additional players resulting in raids being wastelands very soon. You want raids to die? Sure go ahead with this idea but the complaints of raid content droughts are already existent. It wouldn't get better.

The more reasonable approach would be to bring other supports in line with chrono and balance the powercreep via dps output from dps builds.

[Krzysztof.5973]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> You want raids to die?

That's a great idea. Let's kill this community and move on with our lives. Casuals will be happy with elitists being gone and veterans who actually play this game more than 1 hour a week and complain how toxic we are can stop waiting 300 days for content :>

[DeadlySynz.3471]

They don't need nerfing, Anet just needs to block the spec's from entering both raids and fractals.. done and done. Keep them blocked until people look at them, scratch their heads for about 30 min and think to themselves "hmmm I could use these 2 classes, but there are others who do things 100% better"

[kasoki.5180]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > You can't deny that Chrono is blatantly overpowered in just about every regard.

> Sure, that damage is way too OP [/sarcasm]

>

> > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > I agree, chrono is the only god tier class in the game currently.

> It's not god tier. It's just that all other support builds are trash tier.

>

>

 

Care to elaborate on that second one? How is Chrono balanced support while others are thrash?

 

This argument is true only if you think all other classes should be able to maintain boons on level mesmer does, more precisely, alacrity and quickness. So basically, in your opinion, all other classes are trash because they are not mesmer.

 

This game revolves around massive boon generation that should've never been introduced into the game. This means that professions can be balanced only if they do exactly the same thing. This is the corner Anet got themselves into when they decided to go with game design based on asymmetrical classes and boons.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Xantaria.8726" said:

> > > @"Amineo.8951" said:

> > > This was after I made my own Fractal group as a Heal Firebrand seeking 4 DPS, I see that people are still being the same since these two elite specs came out, maybe it's time to nerf both of them to oblivion so people have to learn how to play the game right?

> >

> > Or you just move on and dont rant about such a small thing on the forums? There are always idiots in games. Yet demanding to nerf classes into uselessnes just cause you had some idiots is stupid.

>

> You can't deny that Chrono is blatantly overpowered in just about every regard. It's not about nerfing classes into uselessnes, it's about bringing them in line with others.

 

You would be right if there was another class to bring chrono in line with.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > You can't deny that Chrono is blatantly overpowered in just about every regard.

> > Sure, that damage is way too OP [/sarcasm]

> >

> > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > I agree, chrono is the only god tier class in the game currently.

> > It's not god tier. It's just that all other support builds are trash tier.

> >

> >

>

> Care to elaborate on that second one? How is Chrono balanced support while others are thrash?

>

> This argument is true only if you think all other classes should be able to maintain boons on level mesmer does, more precisely, alacrity and quickness. So basically, in your opinion, all other classes are trash because they are not mesmer.

>

> This game revolves around massive boon generation that should've never been introduced into the game. This means that professions can be balanced only if they do exactly the same thing. This is the corner Anet got themselves into when they decided to go with game design based on asymmetrical classes and boons.

 

In raids all classes are judged based on their dps. EVEN support classes. If banners+ea+warrior dps wouldnt be better then another dps noone would play bs.

Same works for druid. Is druid best healer? No. Actualy druid is worst healer of them all. Reason why you play druid is for spotter, spirits and might which is more then another dps.

For less experianced parties 2 healers are meta. In that case herald as a second healer is is supperior to druid because of ap>spotter and more heals = higher scholar uptime (if you need second healer then scholar uptime might be problem)

 

Right now there are around 4 diferent quickness/alacrity bots. The "problem" with chrono is not based on chrono but on mesmer. If you take away q/a then there is no point playing chrono. If you dont nerf that then chrono will stay Forever meta since noone can replace him yet.

 

Other support clases are thrash because they dont bring more dps then another dps slot

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > You can't deny that Chrono is blatantly overpowered in just about every regard.

> > Sure, that damage is way too OP [/sarcasm]

>

> DPS-Chrono isn't actually that bad with a benchmark of avg. 32.000 dps. Stuff like Reaper on the other hand is rejoicing finally beating the 30.000-border. You can also switch to Mirage which is also quite powerful and whose dps-benchmarks actually translate better into actual raid-scenarios due to losing no time due to Mirage's dodge-mechanics and due to having more bursty conditions. Sure, it's not really broken, but that's not the area where Chrono/Mesmer is broken anyway. Chrono is absolutely broken as support.

>

> > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > I agree, chrono is the only god tier class in the game currently.

> > It's not god tier. It's just that all other support builds are trash tier.

>

> ...and that's just wrong. Other builds are fairly balanced. Chrono on the other hand brings:

> * every single boon the game offers and the **only** class with access to both alacrity **and** quickness,

> * ridiculously powerful defiance-bar-damage through Signet of Moa and various other skills, and

> * several ridiculously powerful utilities/weapon-skills (focus 5, feedback, certain wells, etc.), who are superior in regards of usability and reliability.

>

> Face it, Chrono as support-build is downright broken. It does nearly everything besides damage far too well. It's Chrono that is utterly broken; it's not that the other support-builds are trash. Especially usability and reliability are huge factors - the Chrono/Druid combo simply outshines other possible combinations like Renegade/Firebrand. Chrono is god-tier in terms of support.

 

Talking about fractals. Renegade/firebrand are both condi specs-> they are bad for fractals.

In raids this combo also doesnt work since firebrand mantras chose targets based on distance first (and not based on subsquads).

Also firebrand quickness rellies much more on position since it has very linited range. Change mantras to 360 aoe and make them prioritize subsquad members first and on bosses where duelling/illusion is the go to option firebrands and renegades will be quite good.

Also if in theory spirits were removed (bad idea because it is only thing druids have) healer spot would be open. If healer spot is free then you can play revenant no matter what quickness bot you have. Right now chrono and druid can be separated but rev and firebrand cannot be. That is also part of the issue.

And it is true that chrono brings alot to squad. I think that last balance patch (not this one) bringed sone good nerfs to aegis share (better timing is needed).

 

Right Now no matter how you nerf chrono, if you dont touch q/a uptime chrono will be meta. If you do touch it significantly then chrono will not be played at all no metter all the other boons and cc he can provide.

 

Also tides of time brings more cc then moa.

 

If you remove chaos domination will be played again. Will there be diference? Yes but not that huge. If you remove moa chrono will be still played. Before hot mesmer had already huge number of ultility. If you truly want to nerf support chrono then either you need to rework whole mesmer or remove q/a. Unlikely that those will happen.

Or maybe make spec that does what chrono does but better on some fights and worse on others. Its pve. There will always be best option and this is the only way how to make more builds top tier

[sarkysek.1085]

> @"Amineo.8951" said:

> This was after I made my own Fractal group as a Heal Firebrand seeking 4 DPS, I see that people are still being the same since these two elite specs came out, maybe it's time to nerf both of them to oblivion so people have to learn how to play the game right?

 

Delete Chrono and Druid from the game. Case solved.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > You can't deny that Chrono is blatantly overpowered in just about every regard.

> > Sure, that damage is way too OP [/sarcasm]

> >

> > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > I agree, chrono is the only god tier class in the game currently.

> > It's not god tier. It's just that all other support builds are trash tier.

> >

> >

>

> Care to elaborate on that second one? How is Chrono balanced support while others are thrash?

>

> This argument is true only if you think all other classes should be able to maintain boons on level mesmer does, more precisely, alacrity and quickness. So basically, in your opinion, all other classes are trash because they are not mesmer.

No. It's simple. No other build offers boon support good enough to warrant taking it for that boon support alone. For all other "support" builds out there, actual boon support is secondary to their primary function (which is either healing, or dps), and is unsufficient to carry that build if said primary function is gone. If you remove chrono, there won't be any other class to take support slot. You'd have to outsource that support to dps/healing slots.

 

A support build cannot be called "balanced" if its support is not enough to be its primary function, and cannot be called OP if it is.

 

Druid, Renegade, Firebrand, warrior are not support builds - they are heal/dps builds with support options. The only support build out there is chrono.

 

So, basically, you're not arguing that chrono is OP. You are arguing that support builds should not exist, and everything should be hybrid builds.

[Raizel.8175]

You don't really understand how this game is working, do you?

 

There are in fact several support-builds out there. While it is true that support-builds also fill other roles like healing and tanking (to claim that you have decent dps on a dedicated support-build with corresponding gear is just stupid - sorry; you don't deal decent damage with how this games' stat-system works - you need at least concentration and toughness as tank - hello chrono! - or concentration and healing power as healer; there are simply no stat-combinations that would allow for dps in that regard - even disregarding how you'd have to adjust your build to support efficiently), that also applies to chrono as well: chrono is tank, boon-support, mobility-wonder and controller due to strong cc and weapon-skills/utilities. That chrono wouldn't be taken into raids just because you were to nerf his boon-support is short-sighted since - as you can see - it also fills other important roles and is quite efficient in doing so. You also seem to forget the aspect of "usability", even though ButcherofMalakir already brought that argument up. Chrono is easier to use and more reliable than other support-specs just like druids are in the healing-department.

 

I don't understand why people don't see that chrono is in fact utterly broken. Support/tank-chrono is the build that openly shows one of the fundamental game-flaws anyway: The PvE-content in GW2 isn't as sophisticated as people think. The main-theme is to bring as much dps as possible to cheese mechanics to death. Since chrono brings every single boon of the game with the exception of class-specific boons, is sufficient at tanking, is superb at cc, movement and controlling, chrono invalidates nearly every other support-build. You simply fill everything with dps-builds to have as much dps as possible to cheese mechanics as good as possible. Due to chrono being god-tier in regard of support and due to game-mechanics/design, the amount of actual teamplay and coordination is near zero in GW2, even though people always claim that GW2 is such a social game (weird, people don't need TS/Discord for fractals/raids like in other games).

 

ArenaNet at least needs to strip either quickness or alacrity from chrono to bring it in line with other support-builds since that would mean that you need another support (which can be a healer due to how rotten the role-stacking in GW2 works) who brings the other major boon.

 

I really don't want to offend anyone, but I really can't follow this discussion anymore since there are arguments that are objectively wrong.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> You don't really understand how this game is working, do you?

>

> There are in fact several support-builds out there. While it is true that support-builds also fill other roles like healing and tanking (to claim that you have decent dps on a dedicated support-build with corresponding gear is just stupid - sorry; you don't deal decent damage with how this games' stat-system works - you need at least concentration and toughness as tank - hello chrono! - or concentration and healing power as healer; there are simply no stat-combinations that would allow for dps in that regard - even disregarding how you'd have to adjust your build to support efficiently), that also applies to chrono as well: chrono is tank, boon-support, mobility-wonder and controller due to strong cc and weapon-skills/utilities. That chrono wouldn't be taken into raids just because you were to nerf his boon-support is short-sighted since - as you can see - it also fills other important roles and is quite efficient in doing so. You also seem to forget the aspect of "usability", even though ButcherofMalakir already brought that argument up. Chrono is easier to use and more reliable than other support-specs just like druids are in the healing-department.

>

> I don't understand why people don't see that chrono is in fact utterly broken. Support/tank-chrono is the build that openly shows one of the fundamental game-flaws anyway: The PvE-content in GW2 isn't as sophisticated as people think. The main-theme is to bring as much dps as possible to cheese mechanics to death. Since chrono brings every single boon of the game with the exception of class-specific boons, is sufficient at tanking, is superb at cc, movement and controlling, chrono invalidates nearly every other support-build. You simply fill everything with dps-builds to have as much dps as possible to cheese mechanics as good as possible. Due to chrono being god-tier in regard of support and due to game-mechanics/design, the amount of actual teamplay and coordination is near zero in GW2, even though people always claim that GW2 is such a social game (weird, people don't need TS/Discord for fractals/raids like in other games).

>

> ArenaNet at least needs to strip either quickness or alacrity from chrono to bring it in line with other support-builds since that would mean that you need another support (which can be a healer due to how rotten the role-stacking in GW2 works) who brings the other major boon.

>

> I really don't want to offend anyone, but I really can't follow this discussion anymore since there are arguments that are objectively wrong.

 

Looks like you dont understand either. You dont need chrono to tank. Every class can tank (and many better then chrono), but why would you waste dps to take toughness if chrono have most toughness anyway. As for cc you can take core warrior instead of berzerker on all fights where cc is needed. Also there are actualy dps classes with cc. If you remove chaos chrono would be used.

ONLY WAY for chrono to not be OP is if he loses quickness but at that time chrono is usless.

Even if chrono loses alacrity it is more likely that druid loses a spot to revenant instead if chrono.

Right now there is no other quickness bot in game. Quickness increse total raid dps by 30% -> chrono brings most dps.

 

Its amazing that chrono can bring all the ultility he have but just the ultility without quickness and alacrity will not make chrono viable because pve is only about contribution to dps. If A brings more raid dps then B then A will be played.

 

You can nerf chrono all you want but it will either be used or usless.

And the day that hybrid builds become better then pure support builds is the day I stop playing. For me if every raidspot can do everything then there is no teamwork

[segman.3560]

> @"sarkysek.1085" said:

> > @"Amineo.8951" said:

> > This was after I made my own Fractal group as a Heal Firebrand seeking 4 DPS, I see that people are still being the same since these two elite specs came out, maybe it's time to nerf both of them to oblivion so people have to learn how to play the game right?

>

> Delete Chrono and Druid from the game. Case solved.

 

After which you gonna complain about another support build, like FB. No solution to actual problem, just different targets to blame.

[kasoki.5180]

^ I'm pretty sure FB with concentration can keep perma quickness. Considering recent changes to herald, I am almost certain guardian is getting alacrity in near future

 

And almost everything that was said in this topic leads to the problem of single class being able to give out two most important boons in the meta (quickness+alacrity). You can call it whatever you want, Chrono being OP, other classes being trash. It's same in the end.

 

You are just watering down the issue.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> ^ I'm pretty sure FB with concentration can keep perma quickness. Considering recent changes to herald, I am almost certain guardian is getting alacrity in near future

>

> And almost everything that was said in this topic leads to the problem of single class being able to give out two most important boons in the meta (quickness+alacrity). You can call it whatever you want, Chrono being OP, other classes being trash. It's same in the end.

>

> You are just watering down the issue.

 

No one is arguing that things should remain unchanged. The question is which changes and how make the most sense.

 

Defining and analyzing the issue and all things affected by changes is important. The easy way is to reduce everything which becomes used to much since obviously it must be more effective than all alternatives (if there are any). That does not automatically solve the problem though and might very easily create new ones which are even worse.

 

If Firebrand were to receive alacrity on top of their quickness (with some adjustment to their healing and damage) that would go a long way to create an alternative to support chrono, maybe even merge a healer spot with a support spot (which in turn would allow for 1 more dps, that in turn would make raids even easier).